Survivor's story circa 1964

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Christof
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Survivor's story circa 1964

Postby Christof » 8 years 10 months ago (Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:32 pm)

Not only did Ben survive Auschwitz, he was transferred FROM Treblinka to Majdanek only to ultimately be liberated from Ebensee.

They don't write them like that any more.

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"All the concentration camps were, after all, vast transit camps.The inmates were constantly changing, passing from one camp to another, coming and going." Balachowsky:IMT vol.VI pg.317

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Re: Survivor's story circa 1964

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 8 years 10 months ago (Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:58 pm)

Probably his biggest lie screw-up is saying he went to Treblinka and made the selection for work, and thus wasn't killed. Treblinka didn't do that. They killed all the Jews who arrived according to the lie-story. A second big mistake is an "identifying metal wrist band" he had at Ebensee. I've never heard of anyone having that.

Why do these people always gravitate toward Germanic communities? Wisconsin?

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Re: Survivor's story circa 1964

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 10 months ago (Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:41 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:Probably his biggest lie screw-up is saying he went to Treblinka and made the selection for work, and thus wasn't killed. Treblinka didn't do that. They killed all the Jews who arrived according to the lie-story.

You're forgetting there were 2 Treblinka camps.

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Re: Survivor's story circa 1964

Postby Christof » 8 years 10 months ago (Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:24 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:Probably his biggest lie screw-up is saying he went to Treblinka and made the selection for work, and thus wasn't killed. Treblinka didn't do that. They killed all the Jews who arrived according to the lie-story.


Occasionally you'll catch exteminationists admitting that people were transferred east from Treblinka only to claim that they were then murdered at Majdanek.

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote: A second big mistake is an "identifying metal wrist band" he had at Ebensee. I've never heard of anyone having that.


I'd never heard of the I.D bracelets either but in the infamous picture of the inmates liberated from Ebensee it looks like a few of them are wearing them.

800px-Ebensee_concentration_camp_prisoners_1945.jpg


Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:Why do these people always gravitate toward Germanic communities? Wisconsin?


Who knows,maybe the same reason they gravitated towards Germany in the first place. Image

Kingfisher wrote:You're forgetting there were 2 Treblinka camps.


But only one had gas chambers.Allegedly.
"All the concentration camps were, after all, vast transit camps.The inmates were constantly changing, passing from one camp to another, coming and going." Balachowsky:IMT vol.VI pg.317

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Re: Survivor's story circa 1964

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:16 pm)

Christof wrote:
Kingfisher wrote:You're forgetting there were 2 Treblinka camps.

But only one had gas chambers.Allegedly.

That was my point. He could have been sent to the labour camp.

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Re: Survivor's story circa 1964

Postby Ray Barren » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:39 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:Probably his biggest lie screw-up is saying he went to Treblinka and made the selection for work, and thus wasn't killed. Treblinka didn't do that. They killed all the Jews who arrived according to the lie-story.


I have never read that all Jews were killed in Treblinka but instead most were. Some seelected for labor in the camp self and other concentration camps for hard labor.

Question: Who are scholars and says 100% Jews murdered in these camps?

Sure you must heard of Jules Schelvis Sobibor survivor who describes such selection practice in that camp and was one of those who were sent off for work. Treblinka was the same way.
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Re: Survivor's story circa 1964

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:41 pm)

He said a "selection" was made at Treblinka, with the women and children herded off to their death. That couldn't have been Treblinka Labor camp. He's confusing the Auschwitz story with Treblinka. At Treblinka labor camp, it would have been determined beforehand that you were going there. Not bringing a whole bunch of people and deciding there in the woods who is going to work there.

Good point about the bracelet and good supporting photo.

Schelvis' book isn't used by any historians that I know of. Yitzhak Arad in "Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka" doesn't use him. Historians use Yankel Wiernik, Samuel Wilenberg and Richard Glazar primarily and Thomas Blatt for Sobibor, among others, and they say that at the Treblinka Death Camp, the only selection to live, was to work in the killing operation there at the camp, after which you would then eventually be killed yourself. And thus the escapees in the revolt are the only ones to live and tell the tale.

This guy in 1964 is just a big liar confusing his story I think.

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Re: Survivor's story circa 1964

Postby Ray Barren » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:43 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:Schelvis' book isn't used by any historians that I know of. Yitzhak Arad in "Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka" doesn't use him. Historians use Yankel Wiernik, Samuel Wilenberg and Richard Glazar primarily and Thomas Blatt for Sobibor, among others, and they say that at the Treblinka Death Camp, the only selection to live, was to work in the killing operation there at the camp, after which you would then eventually be killed yourself. And thus the escapees in the revolt are the only ones to live and tell the tale.

This guy in 1964 is just a big liar confusing his story I think.


This is very much wrong. Please look at the publication dates of Arads "Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka" and the same date of Schelvis' book on Sobibor. Why would you expect Arad to cite him when his book wasnt written at that time??

And saying that Schelvis important work has not been used by others is just as wrong. You can find hundreds of usages by modern historians through google books search. You could look at Peter Longerich "Holocaust" as first example. Dan Stone talks of Schelvis in "Histories of th Holocaust." Reinhard expert Bogdan Musial also relies on Schelvis in all his books and articles on subject to with some free online as this one- http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micr ... 203222.pdf

Please dont think that since you have not read Schelvis book that others have not either. Selection for work happened for other close labour camps not just Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka. This is clear in scholarly writings on camp and in court trial verdicts against camp members.
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Re: Survivor's story circa 1964

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:45 pm)

On Jules Schelvis: The idea of a newly discovered eyewitness, who the director of Yad Vashem (Arad) didn't know about in the 1990's, 50 years later. Is circumspect.

In real life, it was a delousing station and people would have then gone on to other camps to work. But him saying the women were killed is a lie. Most likely though, he's a liar and is just getting a death camp (Treblinka) confused with a concentration camp (Auschwitz.)

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Re: Survivor's story circa 1964

Postby Christof » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:18 pm)

Ray Barren wrote:Question: Who are scholars and says 100% Jews murdered in these camps?


Yitzhak Arad in the preface to his book Belzec,Sobibor,Treblinka says:

The death camps,all of them erected in Nazi-occupied Poland,served one purpose:the physical and total extermination of the Jewish people.This book is a study of the death camps of Belzec,Sobibor, and Treblinka,which were established to expedite "Operation Reinhard" [sic] - the extermination of the Jews who lived in the General Government of Poland.
...the book tells the tale of hundreds of thousands of victims who were brought for extermination-although their stay in the camps usually lasted no more than a few hours-from the time they disembarked onto the railway platform until their corpses were removed from the gas chambers,buried in mass graves,and later cremated.
In each camp,a few hundred Jews were removed from the transports to do the physical work involved in the extermination process,as well as some service jobs.Most survived for only a short time,from a few days to several months,and were ultimately murdered as were those who were sent directly from the transports for extermination.


Ray Barren wrote:Sure you must heard of Jules Schelvis Sobibor survivor who describes such selection practice in that camp and was one of those who were sent off for work. Treblinka was the same way.


If "Treblinka was the same way" then quote us a passage where he says that,although I don't see that it amounts to anything other than one more discrepancy in the exterminationist's tale.
"All the concentration camps were, after all, vast transit camps.The inmates were constantly changing, passing from one camp to another, coming and going." Balachowsky:IMT vol.VI pg.317

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Re: Survivor's story circa 1964

Postby Ray Barren » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:33 am)

Christof wrote:If "Treblinka was the same way" then quote us a passage where he says that,although I don't see that it amounts to anything other than one more discrepancy in the exterminationist's tale.


What makes a discrepancy here? Jews who were taken into the camp were killed besides a few hundred kept alive to work in the camp. Some Jews did not make it into the camp before selected to work in other camps. I pointed to some historians who make this point. Several days ago I was reading Carlo Mattogno and Jurgen Grafs book on Treblinka and they referred Holocaust historians and witnesses who were brought to the Reinhard camps and then were selected to other locations for labor. Some postwar German trials also not this point in there investigatons of these three death camps.
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Re: Survivor's story circa 1964

Postby The Warden » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:59 pm)

Ray Barren wrote:
Christof wrote:If "Treblinka was the same way" then quote us a passage where he says that,although I don't see that it amounts to anything other than one more discrepancy in the exterminationist's tale.


What makes a discrepancy here? Jews who were taken into the camp were killed besides a few hundred kept alive to work in the camp. Some Jews did not make it into the camp before selected to work in other camps. I pointed to some historians who make this point. Several days ago I was reading Carlo Mattogno and Jurgen Grafs book on Treblinka and they referred Holocaust historians and witnesses who were brought to the Reinhard camps and then were selected to other locations for labor. Some postwar German trials also not this point in there investigatons of these three death camps.


It looks like you forgot to mention where they discussed these alleged "killings". I see a mention of relocation and labor though.

Can you please point out the passages where Mattogno and Graf talk about the... let's call them "exterminations"?
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Re: Survivor's story circa 1964

Postby Christof » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:57 pm)

Ray Barren wrote:What makes a discrepancy here?


If you don't see the discrepancy between Arad's account where the only Jews who were sent to Treblinka that left alive were the few who escaped, and the account of other historians who claim that Jews sent to Treblinka were sometimes sent on to other destinations then you must be trolling.
"All the concentration camps were, after all, vast transit camps.The inmates were constantly changing, passing from one camp to another, coming and going." Balachowsky:IMT vol.VI pg.317

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Re: Survivor's story circa 1964

Postby Ray Barren » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:28 pm)

Christof wrote:
Ray Barren wrote:What makes a discrepancy here?


If you don't see the discrepancy between Arad's account where the only Jews who were sent to Treblinka that left alive were the few who escaped, and the account of other historians who claim that Jews sent to Treblinka were sometimes sent on to other destinations then you must be trolling.


If Arad did not write up much on selections to other camps then he missed a good point to study and should correct it. If he says somewhere that no such transfer took place then he is wrong. The selections had been written about before Arads book. Donats book on Treblinka written 10 years before Arad writes of labor transfers to Majdanek (p24). Transfers was also mentioned in German trial verdicts in 1960s.

Your first post in this thread says on a witness tale of a Treblinka to Majdanek labor transfer

They don't write them like that any more.


This is wrong as shown here and as revisionist writers Mattogno and Graf also depict in the Treblinka book they wrote.
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Re: Survivor's story circa 1964

Postby Christof » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:18 pm)

Ray Barren wrote:If Arad did not write up much on selections to other camps then he missed a good point to study and should correct it.


As for your opinion that Yitzhak Arad, the former director of Yad Vashem, needs to be corrected, I wholeheartedly agree.

Ray Barren wrote:Your first post in this thread says on a witness tale of a Treblinka to Majdanek labor transfer

christof wrote:They don't write them like that any more.


This is wrong as shown here and as revisionist writers Mattogno and Graf also depict in the Treblinka book they wrote.


If you don't think that a story about a Jew surviving Auschwitz,Treblinka,Majdanek, and Ebensee is rare,then we can agree to disagree on that.

Edit:Nov.18
Christof wrote:If you don't think that a story about a Jew surviving Auschwitz,Treblinka,Majdanek, and Ebensee is rare,then we can agree to disagree on that.


I just want to clarify that I don't think it's rare that there were such survivors,I'm sure there were many.I just think it's rare that it was publicized in such a way.
Last edited by Christof on Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All the concentration camps were, after all, vast transit camps.The inmates were constantly changing, passing from one camp to another, coming and going." Balachowsky:IMT vol.VI pg.317


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