Russia appears to have something to hide

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bridgebuilder
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Russia appears to have something to hide

Postby bridgebuilder » 8 years 8 months ago (Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:51 am)

One would think that nearly 70 years after the war, that there would be nothing of interest concerning prisoners needing to be concealed. This, however, is not the case. Russian researchers are being systematically silenced. One can only suspect that there is something of major significance still needing to be kept hidden in the vaults. The particular news item of interest concerns Professor Mikhail Suprun of Archangel who was researching German POWs who died in the Gulag. Full details are provided in the following link:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/catriona-b ... lsk-affair

Long term readers of this site will be familiar with my view that captive Jews in the German camps WERE subject to mass murder, but only after the camps were overrun by the Red Army and their inhabitants transported east. That is to say, that the reason there are no bodies to find in any great numbers in any of the German camps is that the Germans didn't commit mass murder, but that the Russians did. (Anyone who denies that the Russians committed mass murder on a colossal scale is simply ignorant, the only question being whether Stalin was genius enough to bring off a mass murder of captured Jews and spring the blame for the missing Jews onto the Germans.) With many here, I am a Holocaust revisionist in that I agree there is no evidence of any German extermination program, but unlike many here, I think it quite possible that the missing Jews were indeed murdered further east. Anyway, if such were the case then the Russian sensitivity to current investigation would be obvious. Perhaps readers might have some alternative explanation for the Russian sensitivities. It will be interesting to see. What is clear is that Mr Putin still sees that there is something very important connecting with the Solovetski and other camps of the Stalin era that still needs hiding. What might it be? Germans, Balts, Hungarians, Poles, Allied POWs, Jews? Over to you all.

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Charles Traynor
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Re: Russia appears to have something to hide

Postby Charles Traynor » 8 years 8 months ago (Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:23 am)

bridgebuilder wrote:Long term readers of this site will be familiar with my view that captive Jews in the German camps WERE subject to mass murder, but only after the camps were overrun by the Red Army and their inhabitants transported east. That is to say, that the reason there are no bodies to find in any great numbers in any of the German camps is that the Germans didn't commit mass murder, but that the Russians did. (Anyone who denies that the Russians committed mass murder on a colossal scale is simply ignorant, the only question being whether Stalin was genius enough to bring off a mass murder of captured Jews and spring the blame for the missing Jews onto the Germans.) With many here, I am a Holocaust revisionist in that I agree there is no evidence of any German extermination program, but unlike many here, I think it quite possible that the missing Jews were indeed murdered further east.

This is an interesting thesis but I doubt you have any hard evidence to back it up. I would like to see the figures you are working with. How many Jews do you consider to be missing? Do you have any solid evidence showing your ‘missing’ Jews were actually murdered by the Soviets?
Rabbi Shlomo Risikin: "The [non-Jewish] world is divided into parts: those who actively participated with the Nazis and those who passively collaborated with them."

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Re: Russia appears to have something to hide

Postby Ilikerealhistory » 8 years 8 months ago (Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:33 pm)

bridgebuilder wrote:
Long term readers of this site will be familiar with my view that captive Jews in the German camps WERE subject to mass murder, but only after the camps were overrun by the Red Army and their inhabitants transported east. That is to say, that the reason there are no bodies to find in any great numbers in any of the German camps is that the Germans didn't commit mass murder, but that the Russians did. (Anyone who denies that the Russians committed mass murder on a colossal scale is simply ignorant, the only question being whether Stalin was genius enough to bring off a mass murder of captured Jews and spring the blame for the missing Jews onto the Germans.) With many here, I am a Holocaust revisionist in that I agree there is no evidence of any German extermination program, but unlike many here, I think it quite possible that the missing Jews were indeed murdered further east. Anyway, if such were the case then the Russian sensitivity to current investigation would be obvious. Perhaps readers might have some alternative explanation for the Russian sensitivities. It will be interesting to see. What is clear is that Mr Putin still sees that there is something very important connecting with the Solovetski and other camps of the Stalin era that still needs hiding. What might it be? Germans, Balts, Hungarians, Poles, Allied POWs, Jews? Over to you all.




I doubt that there was any wholesale killing of jews. There may have ben a few, those that did not go along with communism, but most of the mass killing victims were non-jews. Russia has a lot to hide. If the Germans find out they are not guilty of war crimes, then the Russia won't be able to get loans or other funds from Germany. Guilt trips don't work if there is proof you are not guilty.

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Re: Russia appears to have something to hide

Postby The Warden » 8 years 8 months ago (Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:42 pm)

bridgebuilder wrote:Long term readers of this site will be familiar with my view that captive Jews in the German camps WERE subject to mass murder, but only after the camps were overrun by the Red Army and their inhabitants transported east. That is to say, that the reason there are no bodies to find in any great numbers in any of the German camps is that the Germans didn't commit mass murder, but that the Russians did. (Anyone who denies that the Russians committed mass murder on a colossal scale is simply ignorant, the only question being whether Stalin was genius enough to bring off a mass murder of captured Jews and spring the blame for the missing Jews onto the Germans.) With many here, I am a Holocaust revisionist in that I agree there is no evidence of any German extermination program, but unlike many here, I think it quite possible that the missing Jews were indeed murdered further east.


That's about the same conclusion I reach after doing some reading about different aspects and combine them to try and figure out where the remains might be. Of course, that's if you accept the idea that the amounts claimed were ever there in the first place. I've run in to numerous Believers that try to use population statistics as proof of the amount of Jews that went "missing". However, I've never seen consistent numbers, let alone pre-war and post-war numbers presented from the same source. It's always a pre-war number from a random agency (if you can even find the source), followed by numbers from a post-war Jewish agency (it's always presented as a completely unbiased source, mind you). So in that respect, I have difficulty believing the amounts in the first place, but if one is to consider the inconsistent numbers valid, it's perfectly conceivable that they may have wound up in Russia. Far be it from me to claim they're there without proof. After all, I'm not some blind faith follower who accepts the supposed "truth", but if Russia comes clean in the future as they did about Katyn, then I don't think any of us would be too surprised.

Carlos Whitlock Porter's "The Holocaust - Made In Russia" http://www.cwporter.com/two.htm is a great place to roam around if you're looking to read about Russian involvement. I wasn't around for the main discussion of when his information was first introduced, so I'll let the elders here point out any issues with his work.
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bridgebuilder
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Re: Russia appears to have something to hide

Postby bridgebuilder » 8 years 8 months ago (Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:07 am)

The original article on the Suprun persecution was in the Guardian last year. The web reference to it is at:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oc ... n-arrested

I hope it is O.K. to display the article here for readers to peruse, rather than merely provide the link. I trust the moderator will enforce whatever this site's policy is, but would ask that if the following quoted text is to be deleted that the web reference at least is is let stay. The Guardian article reads as follows:

"Russian historian arrested in Stalin-era clampdown
Date: October 17 2009

Luke Harding
MOSCOW: A Russian historian investigating the fate of Germans imprisoned in the Soviet Union during World War II has been arrested in an apparent clampdown on research into the Stalin era by the Russian authorities.
Mikhail Suprun was detained last month by officers from Russia's security services. They searched his flat and carried off his entire personal archive. He has now been charged with violating privacy laws and, if convicted, faces up to four years in jail.
Professor Suprun had been carrying out research into Germans sent to Russia's Arctic gulags. A historian at Pomorskiy University in Arkhangelsk, he was looking at German prisoners of war captured by the Red Army as well as Russian-speaking ethnic Germans, many from southern Russia, deported by Stalin. Both groups ended up in camps in Arkhangelsk.
''I had been planning to write two books. I need another two or three years before I can finish them,'' Professor Suprun said.
The historian - who described his arrest as ''absurd'' - said he had signed an agreement with local officials not to talk further about his case.
But the arrest has provoked outrage in Germany and among leading historians. It comes amid attempts by the Kremlin to rehabilitate Stalin and to clamp down on independent historical research - with political repression during the Soviet era and victims of the gulag system now taboo topics.
Orlando Figes, a writer and a professor of history at Birkbeck College, London University, described Mr Suprun's arrest as unprecedented, and part of a ''Putinite campaign against freedom of historical research and expression''.
He added: ''[It's] potentially quite alarming, if it means that the regime intends to clamp down on the collection of personal data about the Stalin terror.''
Russia's FSB intelligence agency also arrested a police official who handed Professor Suprun material from the local Interior Ministry archive.
It includes a list of 40,000 Germans deported to the Arkhangelsk region between 1945 and 1956. It details which camps they were sent to and whether they survived. The official, Colonel Alexander Dudaryev, is accused of abusing his position.
''What we are seeing is the rebirth of control over history,'' said Rauf Gabidullin, of the movement for human rights in Arkhangelsk.
''The majority of Russians don't have any idea of the scale of Stalin's repression. Those in power are from the KGB. They don't want people to know what their KGB predecessors were doing, or its huge scope.''
The Second World War remains a source of tension between Russia and its post-Soviet neighbours. The Russian President, Dmitry Medvedev, has repeatedly accused Ukraine, Poland and other eastern European countries of distorting history for political purposes and in May set up a new state commission to prevent what he called the ''falsification of history''.
Allison Gill, the director of Human Rights Watch in Moscow, described the Suprun case as ''very troubling''.
''It's part of an attempt to provide a single narrative about what Russia was, and what it means today,'' she said. ''It denies the full complexity of Russia's history and the fact that individuals had vastly different experiences.''
Guardian News & Media"

It seems to me quite certain that such policies would not be imposed unless there was a genuine matter of interest to the Russian state that its authorities want to be kept secret. It is hard to see how the names of German prisoners matter. Were the investigators to turn up Jewish names, however, then it would be the news item of the millennium.

Stalin was undoubtedly a genius. Fathoming the depth of his genius requires an effort of the imagination that is unpleasant to undergo because it involves delving into extreme psychopathy. In nearly every turn of his political career, Stalin won by doing what his opponents never considered to be possible. The Ukraine? - Starve 'em! The Poles? Kill their officers! The Baltics? Deport any with brains! The Russians? Work any opponents to death in remote camps and throw in randomly selected Russians as well! the Jews? Well, all we know is that Stalin planned a pogrom - "the doctors' plot" - that his untimely death is supposed to have prevented. My bet is that he ordered a trial run on Jewish prisoners from the German camps in the full knowledge that Jews would blame the Germans. And with world Jewry on side, what more powerful pro-Soviet lobby could there be? The gallant Red Arny had defeated the Germans and liberated the camps! Stalin could not be as remotely bad as Hitler! Look at the pitifully few survivors that the Red Army managed to rescue! All those Jews at Majdenek and Treblinka gone forever! Stalin's genius at legerdemain continues to this day.


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