Dubious Chelmno Documents

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israelite
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Postby israelite » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:17 pm)

The Greiser letter states;

"The special treatment [Sonderbehandlung] of about 100,000 Jews in the territory of my district........

.........I think I could take responsibility for my suggestion to have cases of open tuberculosis exterminated among the Polish race herein the Warthegau".

Why the use of alleged coded language for the Jews when the Germans talk openly of extermination for the Poles? Is this not discrimination?

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:45 pm)

israelite wrote:The Greiser letter states;

"The special treatment [Sonderbehandlung] of about 100,000 Jews in the territory of my district........

.........I think I could take responsibility for my suggestion to have cases of open tuberculosis exterminated among the Polish race herein the Warthegau".

Why the use of alleged coded language for the Jews when the Germans talk openly of extermination for the Poles? Is this not discrimination?


One reason we'd like access to the entire German text of the letter is to check which word is used for exterminate.

If you have a look at a follow up letter sent a couple of days later, you'll see the Sonderbehandlung designation is indeed used with regard to the Poles:

LETTER FROM KOPPE TO RUDOLF BRANDT, 3 MAY 1942, CONCERNING THE KILLING OF TUBERCULAR POLES

The Higher SS and Police Leader on the Staff of the Reich Governor in Poznan,
In Military District XXI [Wehrkreis XXI], Journal
No. 132/42 g
Poznan, 3 May 1942
Fritz-Reuter Street, 2a
Tel: 6501-05

Secret

To the Reich Leader SS, Personal Staff,
Attention: SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Brandt,
Berlin SW 11, Prinz Albrecht Street 8.
Subject: Poles afflicted with TB.

Dear Comrade Brandt,

May I ask that you submit the following matter to the Reich Leader SS:

The Gauleiter will shortly ask the Reich Leader SS for permission to have Poles who have been shown to be afflicted with open TB admitted to the detachment Lange for special treatment.[...]


http://www.mazal.org/archive/nmt/01/NMT01-T769.htm

And another related document makes clear what is meant by Sonderbehandlung in this context:

LETTER FROM BLOME TO GREISER, IS NOVEMBER 1942, CONCERNING THE MASS EXTERMINATION OF TUBERCULAR POLES [...]

Therefore, something basic must be done soon. One must decide the most, efficient way in which this can be done. There are three ways to be taken into consideration:

1. Special treatment of the seriously ill persons.

2. Most rigorous isolation of the seriously ill persons.

3. Creation of a reservation for all TB patients.

For the planning, attention must be paid to different points of view of a practical, political, and psychological nature. Considering it most soberly, the simplest way would be the following: Aided by the X-ray battalion we could reach the entire population, German and Polish, of the Gau during the first half of 1943, As to the Germans, the treatment and isolation are to be prepared and carried out according to the regulations of tuberculosis relief. The approximately 35,000 Poles who are incurable and infectious will be "specially treated." All other Polish consumptives will be subjected to an appropriate cure in order to save them for work and to avoid their causing contagion.

According to your request I made arrangements with the offices in question, in order to start and carry out this radical procedure within half a year. You told me that the competent office agreed with you as to this "special treatment" and promised support. Before we definitely start the program, I think it would be correct if you would make sure once more that the Fuehrer will really agree to such a solution.

I could imagine that the Fuehrer, having some time ago stopped the program in the insane asylums, might at this moment consider a "special treatment" of the incurably sick as unsuitable, and irresponsible from a political point of view. As regards the Euthanasia Program it was a question of people of German nationality afflicted with hereditary diseases. Now it is a question of infected sick people of a subjugated nation.[...]


http://www.mazal.org/archive/nmt/01/NMT01-T771.htm

Whether Dr. Butz was aware of these relevant documents when he wrote his book, we shall have to ask him.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:17 pm)

Since we only have alleged English 'translations' and no original German documents shown, and since we know that the alleged mass murder weapon and alleged body disposal are simply laughable and scientifically impossible as alleged, we then have much ado about nothing. There is no evidence to support the intended conclusions of these bogus documents....which is so typical of the 'holocau$t' as alleged.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:07 am)

What, if anything, does Ms. Weckert have to say about this group of documents in her article?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:09 am)

Weckert doesn't address those necessarily fraudulent 'documents' (there is no need to) which we have never seen any German originals.

Weckert's article essentially deals with:

- as posted, she shoots down the fraudulent Hoeppner letter

- the vast contradictions among the so called 'historians' who have written about Chelmno/Kulmhof....they definitely can't keep their stories straight

- she goes into the absurd, nonsensical statements/testimonies made by 'witnesses'...oy, such a mess

- she once again demolishes the moronic assertions about 'gas vans'

- she deals with the ridiculous assertions about the alleged cremations, the method alleged, and the complete lack of mass graves and/or physical evidence

Order a copy from Germar Rudolf:
http://vho.org/tr/

Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Dec 20, 2003 8:20 pm)

Hebden wrote: What do you make of it? What does Ms. Weckert make of it, if anything?

Ingrid Weckert lives in Germany and denying or belittling the accepted "Holocaust" story would not be very healthy for her as a historian.

Her essay is a summary of the findings of well known historians, the trials and the two books Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen duch Giftgas and NS-Vernichtungslager about the camp Chelmno.

Neither Weckert, nor any one of those two books mention this letter by Greiser.

"ausmerzen" stands for stamp out, weed out, wipe out. In this context it could have meant "ethnic cleansing".

About "Sonderbehandlung" of Poles with open tuberculosis, I have no doubt that it meant in this context euthanasia, mercy killing through lethal injections.

The question is: Was it done?

fge

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Dec 21, 2003 6:56 pm)

Sailor wrote:
Hebden wrote: What do you make of it? What does Ms. Weckert make of it, if anything?

Ingrid Weckert lives in Germany and denying or belittling the accepted "Holocaust" story would not be very healthy for her as a historian.


Out of interest, have you read her book on Kristallnacht?

Her essay is a summary of the findings of well known historians, the trials and the two books Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen duch Giftgas and NS-Vernichtungslager about the camp Chelmno.

Neither Weckert, nor any one of those two books mention this letter by Greiser.


Perhaps the idea of including Polish Gentiles in the scope of the Holocaust didn't appeal to the authors of these books. Otherwise, people might start asking why Pope Pius XII didn't take a public stance against the Nazis for mass murdering his fellow Catholics. Inevitably this would lead to charges that Hitler's Pope was - wait for it - anti-Catholic.

"ausmerzen" stands for stamp out, weed out, wipe out. In this context it could have meant "ethnic cleansing".


True. In that sense this letter doesn't take us much further than the Korherr Report which indicated that 145,000 Jews had been filtered through the camp(s) in the Warthegau in the direction of the Russian East.

About "Sonderbehandlung" of Poles with open tuberculosis, I have no doubt that it meant in this context euthanasia, mercy killing through lethal injections.


Therein lies the letter's particular significance. The apparent connection between Jewish Sonderbehandlung and that envisaged for tubercular Poles.

The question is: Was it done?


Not according to:

BLOME DEFENSE EXHIBIT 8 EXTRACTS FROM THE AFFIDAVIT OF DR. OSKAR GUNDERMANN, 28 DECEMBER 1946, STATING THAT BLOME OPPOSED THE PLAN TO EXTERMINATE TUBERCULAR POLES AND THAT THE PLAN WAS NEVER CARRIED OUT


http://www.mazal.org/archive/nmt/01/NMT01-T778.htm

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:05 pm)

Pope Pius XII never took a public stance because there was no evidence from which to take a 'public stance'. It comes down to evidence, not received propaganda. Hebden has presented no evidence.

Once again the German original of this 'letter' has never been shown, revealing. Until that time it's fair to say that it doesn't exist, or we would see it.
so....
Therein lies the letter's particular significance. The apparent connection between Jewish Sonderbehandlung and that envisaged for tubercular Poles.

the connection to 'sonderbehandlung' and mass murder of Jews cannot be established and there is no evidence to support such an assertion.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Dubious Chelmno Documents

Postby Hektor » 4 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:39 am)

Secret Anne X wrote:Hi,

Don't have much time for this, what with holidays and all, however:

Die von Ihnen im Einvernehmen mit dem Chef des Reichssicherheitshauptamtes SS-Obergruppenführer Heydrich genehmigte Aktion der Sonderbehandlung von rund 100,000 Juden in meinem Gaugebiet wird in den nächsten 2-3 Monaten abgeschlossen werden können


The key is that Butz misunderstood the meaning of "abgeschlossen" here, it means more "can be wrapped up" than "can be locked up." Beyond that, it depends how you want to define Sonderbehandlung.

Since no one has ever provided any good evidence for gas vans, I really don't see the point ....

'Abgeschlossen' means something like "case closed" or "finished" in that context. It means "locked up" in contexts of locks or doors.

I'd be interested in the case of Wilhelm Koppe a bit more right now. Since he's mentioned in the literature briefly. Kershaw and Klee mention the name in their books and even cite him (supposedly).

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Re:

Postby Horhug » 4 months 1 week ago (Fri May 10, 2019 7:26 am)

Hebden wrote:The following document was selected by Professor Hilberg for his book Documents of Destruction (Quadrangle, 1971) :

[Biuletyn Glowney Komisji Badania Zbrodni Hitlerowskich W Polsce (Warsaw, Wydawnictwo Prawnicze) XII, 1960, pp. 27F-29F.]

L Hö/S
[Higher SS and Police Leader in Warthegau/SS-Major Rolf-Heinz Höppner]
to
Reich Security Main Office Office IV B 4
Attention SS-Lt. Col. Eichmann
Berlin
July 16, 1941

Dear Comrade Eichmann,

Enclosed is a memorandum on the results of various discussions held locally in the office of the Reich Governor. I would be grateful to have your reactions sometime. These things sound in part fantastic, but in my view are thoroughly feasible.

1 enclosure

L, Hö/S Poznan July 16, 1941

Memorandum

Subject: Solution of the Jewish question

During discussions in the office of the Reich Governor various groups broached the solution of the Jewish question in Warthe province. The following solution is being proposed.

1. All the Jews of Warthe province will be taken to a camp for 300,000 Jews which will be erected in barracks form as close as possible to the coal precincts and which will contain barracks-like installations for economic enterprises, tailor shops, shoe manufacturing plants, etc.

2. All Jews of Warthe province will be brought into this camp. Jews capable of labor may be constituted into labor columns as needed and drawn from the camp.

3. In my view, a camp of this type may be guarded by SS-Brig. Gen. Albert with substantially fewer police forces than are required now. Furthermore, the danger of epidemics, which always exists in the Lodz and other ghettos for the surrounding population, will be minimized.

4. This winter there is a danger that not all of the Jews can be fed anymore. One should weigh honestly, if the most humane solution might not be to finish off those of the Jews who are not employable by means of some quickworking device. At any rate, that would be more pleasant than to let them starve to death.

5. For the rest, the proposal was made that in this camp all the Jewish women, from whom one could still expect children, should be sterilized so that the Jewish problem may actually be solved completely with this generation.

6. The Reich Governor has not yet expressed an opinion in this matter. There is an impression that Government President Übelhör does not wish to see the ghetto in Lodz disappear since he [his office] seems to profit quite well with it. As an example of how one can profit from the Jews, I was told that the Reich Labor Ministry pays 6 Reichsmark from a special fund for each employed Jew, but that the Jew costs only 80 Pfennige.


...


Hannover wrote:
Ingrid Weckert discusses this fraudulent letter in her informative piece about Kulmhof/Chelmo that appears in:
The Revisonist - Journal for Critical Historical Inquiry, v.1, n.4, 2003

points made by her:

- Distinct differences in the Hoeppner 'letter' that was reproduced in the book:
'Nationalsozialistische Massentotungen durch Giftgas', 1983, ed. by Kogon Langbein, Rueckerl, et al.

vs. what is reproduced in the book:

'Nationalsozialistische Vernichtungslager in Spiegel deutsher Strassprozesse. Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Chelmo', 1977, Rueckerl ed.

- Curious differences in the official archival description of this 'letter'; in one book it's a letter, in the other it's a 'file memo'.

- In one book the reproduced document says Volume XIII from the communist Polish Archive, in the other book the document says Volume III.

Besides two missing lines, the 'Massentotungen' document has seven linguistic and textual differences as compared to the document reproduced in the other book.

- The 'Massentotungen' book does not state the fact that this alleged note and accompanying letter to Eichmann exist in unsigned copies only.

- and that Hoeppner firmly stated that he did not write this letter.

Hannover


Hannover wrote:
Weckert doesn't address those necessarily fraudulent 'documents' (there is no need to) which we have never seen any German originals.

Weckert's article essentially deals with:

- as posted, she shoots down the fraudulent Hoeppner letter

- the vast contradictions among the so called 'historians' who have written about Chelmno/Kulmhof....they definitely can't keep their stories straight

- she goes into the absurd, nonsensical statements/testimonies made by 'witnesses'...oy, such a mess

- she once again demolishes the moronic assertions about 'gas vans'

- she deals with the ridiculous assertions about the alleged cremations, the method alleged, and the complete lack of mass graves and/or physical evidence

Order a copy from Germar Rudolf:
http://vho.org/tr/

Hannover


The Ingrid Weckert informative piece about Kulmhof/Chelmo in: The Revisionist - Journal for Critical Historical Inquiry, v.1, n.4, 2003

The Revisionist - Journal for Critical Historical Inquiry
Vol. 1, n.4, 2003


What Was Kulmhof/Chelmno?

Questions about a controversial extermination camp

By Ingrid Weckert

2.1. Letter from Rolf-Heinz Höppner

In order to prove that Chelmno was a planned and carefully prepared matter, Massentötungen (p. 110f.) quotes a letter by the SS-Sturmbannführer Rolf-Heinz Höppner to Adolf Eichmann dated July 16, 1941, in which Höppner informs Eichmann of a danger that the Jews "will not all be able to be fed." He therefore thinks that it should be "seriously considered whether it would not be a more humane solution to finish off the Jews with some fast effective means, as far as they are not able to work." As a source for this document, Massentötungen quotes the "Archive of the Polish Main-Commission for the Investigation of National socialistic Crimes" in Warsaw, Vol. III.

The text of the same document, which is marked not as a letter but as a file memo, is found in Rückerl,[4] p. 256f. The source given is again the above-mentioned Polish Archive, except that it is now Volume XIII (instead of III). Although it is the same reference, the text is not the same. Besides of two missing lines, Massentötungen has seven linguistic and textual differences as compared with the Rückerl book. But what is more serious is that Massentötungen is completely silent about the fact that this note, including the accompanying letter to Eichmann, exists only in non-signed copies, and that Höppner firmly contested after the war that this note is from him (Rückerl, p. 256f.)

[4] Adalbert Rückerl (ed.), Nationalsozialistische Vernichtungslager im Spiegel deutscher Strafprozesse. Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Chelmno (National Socialist Extermination Camps Reflected in Criminal Trials. Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Chelmno). Munich: Deutscher Taschenbuch Verlag 1977.



The book, Nazi Mass Murder, Kogon et al, p. 73 also quotes Rolf-Heinz Höppner.

I had this alleged July 16, 1941 "letter to Eichman" recorded under the name of Hugo Höppenerner, sourced from :


jewishvirtuallibrary.org : The Holocaust: Nazi Officers on the “Jewish Question

Hugo Höppenerner

Letter from Hugo Höppenerner, higher SS and Police leader in the Warthegau, to SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, July 16, 1941 (Documents of Destruction - R. Hilberg, Quadrangle Books, Chicago, 1971, p. 87).

Enclosed is a memorandum on the results of various discussions held locally in the office of the Reich Governor...

Subject: Solution of the Jewish question

4) This winter there is a danger that not all of the Jews can be fed anymore. One might weigh honestly, if the most humane solution might not be to finish off those of the Jews who are not employable by means of some quick-working device. At any rate, that would be more pleasant than to let them starve to death.

5) For the rest, the proposal was made that in this camp all the Jewish women, from whom one could still expect children, should be sterilized so that the Jewish problem may actually be solved completely with this generation.



The alleged letter, allegedly written by :

Hugo Höppenerner, higher SS and Police leader in the Warthegau

and / or :

SS-Major Rolf-Heinz Höppner, Higher SS and Police Leader in Warthegau

Neither, Hugo Höppenerner nor Rolf-Heinz Höppner appear in Ernst Klee's 3rd Reich who's Who : Das Personenlexikon zum Dritten Reich

The name Rolf-Heinz Höppner does have a Wikipedia page :
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolf-Heinz_Höppner

they definitely can't keep their stories straight ...


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