Population Statistics/Demographics

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The Warden
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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby The Warden » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:45 am)

Balsamo wrote:As a conclusion, demographical statistics are not exact science. They are subject to manipulation in some political context. Poland identified much more Jews in 31 (or 33?) than in 1921, maybe to explain and justify their "Jewish policy". That may explain the growth.


Which numbers are you referring to?
Please post them.

Balsamo wrote:Other can momentarely have dissapeared from statistics to reapper later. The mass emigration from Russia or Romania make those immigrants absent from census until they would be recounted in Argentina or Brasil...If i remember, Dalton does not look at this possibility. (I'll check it out). Census are not birth statistics.


Although this was mentioned earlier, it's common sense that unless everyone remained in one spot during the count, and the count was done worldwide at the same time, the overall count HAS to be considered estimated. However, with the amount of movement going on at the time by the people who were supposed to be counted, it's impossible to use these estimates as "proof". I believe that's the main consensus among those of us here.

Balsamo wrote:200.000 is already a hell of a camp, don't you think ? But you should add all the Gethos. On the other hand, Jewish slave labour were dispatched in various industries according to the needs.


200,00 is ONE camp, and the largest.
Also, 200,000 is less than 2% of the total "estimate" of 11,000,000. If the largest camp contained such a small amount overall, then there would need to be over 50 Auschwitz-Berkenau camps comparatively. This was not the case.

Balsamo wrote:And you don't need camps to shoot them as Partisans neither.


But you do need a way to dispose of the bodies, and a place to put the remains.
I don't recall the ghettos having mass graves or crematoria.
Besides, the ghettos would be easier to count since everyone in there was already considered a Jew.
It's the counting of Jews among the rest of the population that's in question, and seemingly unreliable.
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby Balsamo » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:15 pm)

the Warden said
Which numbers are you referring to?
Please post them.


A while ago, there was a discussion about demography on rodoh.
My allegation is not holocaust specific. But if you compare both results of Polish census from 21 and 31 and the last which i don't remember...There is indeed a rise in the number of Jews counted. the Polish government was very active, bu=y the time, at resolving their "Jewish question". So i pointed this out.
In my mother country, Belgium, we have for the last 70 years a real problem with both our main community: the biggest part of the population speaks dutch, the other speaks french (add to all this our german minority). Census used to be political tool to determine which community should ruled which part of the country. When one community felt that it would be negative to count, they didn't or they cheated.
All i want to point out is that Census is a State Tool, that has de facto a political meaning.

Another example, more related to the Holocaust is the fact that about two third of the Jews counted by the German in Belgium were Polish...In fact out of the 60.000 or so Jews present in Belgium, only 5000 were Belgian citizens.

it's impossible to use these estimates as "proof". I believe that's the main consensus among those of us here.


I tend to agree. But on both side. But it is more ridicoulous to point out the Almanac number from 41-45 as a proof that no jews died. The "hoaxters" as they are called here, only proposed estimation based on what they have, mainly the after war couting in all "liberated" countries. And as a matter of fact, there are huge decrepencies between those estimation.


200,00 is ONE camp, and the largest.
Also, 200,000 is less than 2% of the total "estimate" of 11,000,000. If the largest camp contained such a small amount overall, then there would need to be over 50 Auschwitz-Berkenau camps comparatively. This was not the case.


yes, but the fact that the Nazis estimated 11.000.000 Jews does not mean that they were all captured at the same time. And quite a few escaped from the prosecution, especially in the West. But on the other hand, there were also camp in Allied and occupied countries.

.
But you do need a way to dispose of the bodies, and a place to put the remains
I don't recall the ghettos having mass graves or crematoria.


:? yes, but that is another subject...Nobody claimed to have find mass graves of Germans in Siberia, or any other place...But as i said, it is another debate

Happy new year, by the way

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby The Warden » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:57 am)

Balsamo wrote:A while ago, there was a discussion about demography on rodoh.


rodoh?
Never heard of it. :roll:

Balsamo wrote:My allegation is not holocaust specific. But if you compare both results of Polish census from 21 and 31 and the last which i don't remember...There is indeed a rise in the number of Jews counted. the Polish government was very active, bu=y the time, at resolving their "Jewish question". So i pointed this out.


I would like to compare them. If you would post them in here like I asked, I could.
I've seen a few sites claiming what you claim, and even a homemade wikipedia article with ZERO citations, but the actual figures remain missing.
I wonder of they were "gassed" too.

Balsamo wrote:In my mother country, Belgium, we have for the last 70 years a real problem with both our main community: the biggest part of the population speaks dutch, the other speaks french (add to all this our german minority). Census used to be political tool to determine which community should ruled which part of the country. When one community felt that it would be negative to count, they didn't or they cheated.
All i want to point out is that Census is a State Tool, that has de facto a political meaning.


This all goes to the main point of the figures being unreliable, but I've yet to see the numbers you brought up.
I'd like to see just how it was determined the numbers were manipulated to fit the political agenda, other than conspiracy.

Balsamo wrote:Another example, more related to the Holocaust is the fact that about two third of the Jews counted by the German in Belgium were Polish...In fact out of the 60.000 or so Jews present in Belgium, only 5000 were Belgian citizens.


What is this number based on? Please post the actual source.
I'm looking for the sources of the claims, not the claims themselves.

Ray Barren claimed the Germans estimated 11,000,000.
But I haven't seen what these estimates were based on at the time.

Balsamo wrote:I tend to agree. But on both side. But it is more ridicoulous to point out the Almanac number from 41-45 as a proof that no jews died. The "hoaxters" as they are called here, only proposed estimation based on what they have, mainly the after war couting in all "liberated" countries. And as a matter of fact, there are huge decrepencies between those estimation.


I don't recall seeing ANY claim that "no jews died".
What I have seen is "Hoaxters" using inconsistent numbers as a way to show how many Jews are missing or, in the usual unfounded way, "murdered".

This is why I started this thread, for the actual sources.

Claims are a dime a dozen [citation needed]. :D

Balsamo wrote:yes, but the fact that the Nazis estimated 11.000.000 Jews does not mean that they were all captured at the same time. And quite a few escaped from the prosecution, especially in the West. But on the other hand, there were also camp in Allied and occupied countries.


Estimated 11,000,000 on what?

If "quite a few" escaped, then they shouldn't be "missing" or "murdered" at this point, should they?

The fact that camps were located in different countries doesn't factor in. The idea is that the numbers are inconsistent across the board, not in selected, handpicked areas.
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:27 am)

The Warden wrote:Ray Barren claimed the Germans estimated 11,000,000.
But I haven't seen what these estimates were based on at the time.

It's quoted in the Wannsee protocol, with a country by country breakdown. I'm not expressing an opinion on either the protocol or the accuracy of the figure, but that's where 11m comes from. However, it included all of Europe including GB and neutrals. And, as far as I am aware aware, no further source.

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby Wroclaw » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:41 am)

Kingfisher wrote:
The Warden wrote:Ray Barren claimed the Germans estimated 11,000,000.
But I haven't seen what these estimates were based on at the time.

It's quoted in the Wannsee protocol, with a country by country breakdown. I'm not expressing an opinion on either the protocol or the accuracy of the figure, but that's where 11m comes from. However, it included all of Europe including GB and neutrals. And, as far as I am aware aware, no further source.


Just listened to a very long debate between Faurisson and an anti-revisionist from Denmark. Faurisson said the document was genuine.

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby The Warden » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:08 pm)

Whether it is genuine or not isn't my concern at the moment. I'm asking what the Germans used to come up with those estimates, not where they stated them.

Did they use population figures and divide by a certain percentage allowed for Jews?

Almanacs?

What?
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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby Wroclaw » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:24 pm)

The Warden wrote:Whether it is genuine or not isn't my concern at the moment. I'm asking what the Germans used to come up with those estimates, not where they stated them.

Did they use population figures and divide by a certain percentage allowed for Jews?

Almanacs?

What?


That's a good question. In Eichmann in Jerusalem, Hannah Arendt wrote that Eichmann made the estimates at IV.B.4 on his own. I'm guessing she bases that statement on his testimony.

But I don't know what criteria he may have used. Certainly the estimates for the Baltic states are ridiculously low, while the figure for unoccupied France seems irresponsibly large, even taking Morocco, Tunisia, and Algeria into account.

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby The Warden » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:30 pm)

The point being, if the Germans used the same sources as modern day historians, the information was just as unreliable then as it is now.
I don't take German estimates to be fact simply because they're German.

If ten people get food poisoning, it's not the waiter's fault.
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby ovd1965 » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:32 pm)

Late after the war Korherr gave some statements , letter to magazins etc.

besides claiming , it was not discussed any kind of murder , obviously Korherr used a lot of "public" sources.

I believe , the only genuine numbers are for Germany , Austria and occupied areas. These numbers could be based on real investigations by the german bureaucracy.

Besides discussing the question fake or not : reading (without any prejudice) the protocoll did really not discussing murder.

this claim can only be done , if you use the postwar preposessions to read with "knowledge about the code".

and at least we have Prof Bauer : "silly little conference"..... "decided nothing"

based on insurance statistics he claimed a decreasing number in germany. take in to account that such demographics were common in western european countries , there is no "baby boom" in europe in the 30s.

American jewish yearbook give 9.5 Mio jews in europe for the early 30s. take in to account the emigration to overseas and bad economical
situation in eastern europe it seems unbelievable that we can find 11 Mio jews.

based on AJY I see the following :

prewar europe incl neutral and SU 9.5 mio
postwar neutral 0,5
postwar europe w/o neutral and SU 1.5
postwar SU 2.5
emigr 33-45 overseas 1.5
jewish soldiers KIA 0.4 (mainly SU and polish)
missed 3.1

perhaps Korherr used different specifications , sometimes including 1/2 and 1/4 jews and sometimes not.

one example : korherr for France : occupied 165,000 + unoccupied 700,000 = 865,000 , compared with an 1933 number for france of 220,000
rises the question : who are these additional 640,000 ?

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:36 pm)

The Warden wrote:Whether it is genuine or not isn't my concern at the moment. I'm asking what the Germans used to come up with those estimates, not where they stated them.

Did they use population figures and divide by a certain percentage allowed for Jews?

Almanacs?

What?


I already gave you my answer on that which was "I don't know", and said that as far as I recall there was no further source indicated.

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby Wroclaw » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:10 pm)

ovd1965 wrote:Late after the war Korherr gave some statements , letter to magazins etc.


There is serious question as to whether it was actually Korherr who wrote that ONE letter.

When Hilberg testifed at the second Zündel trial, he recounted how Korherr had been asked in 1960 to comment on the report and had reported he was no longer capable of doing so. So Hilberg found it odd that Korherr was, seventeen years later, writing a letter to Der Spiegel claiming expertise. Two possibilities arise: (1) Korherr was lying in 1960 to protect himself. If this is true, however, it makes little sense that he would open his mouth in 1977 and risk prosecution at that point; or (2) Korherr was telling the truth in 1960, which rules out the letter from '77 being genuine.

I believe , the only genuine numbers are for Germany , Austria and occupied areas. These numbers could be based on real investigations by the german bureaucracy.


The same could be said for all territory within German control. Jewish populations were registered immediately upon occupation, in most cases.

Besides discussing the question fake or not : reading (without any prejudice) the protocoll did really not discussing murder.

this claim can only be done , if you use the postwar preposessions to read with "knowledge about the code".


That's why Eichmann testified about the Protocol, i.e., what was actually discussed vs. what ended up in the report that he wrote.

and at least we have Prof Bauer : "silly little conference"..... "decided nothing"


No. He said that little of what was discussed there was actually done; and he made this statement based on Eichmann's testimony, and not on the Protocol itself. Further, Bauer wrote that nothing was decided at Wannsee because it had already been determined beforehand. Thus Wannsee was only an informational meeting and not a meeting convened to make decisions.

one example : korherr for France : occupied 165,000 + unoccupied 700,000 = 865,000 , compared with an 1933 number for france of 220,000
rises the question : who are these additional 640,000 ?


Jews from French-controlled North Africa.

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby trevor » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:51 pm)

From the Korherr Report

"In order to make a balance of the results on the way to the solution of the Jewish question it is necessary to determine the number of Jews and its development. The contradictions in the data about the number of Jews, however, make necessary an introduction in the sense that numbers about Jewry are always to be taken with special reservation and can lead to wrong conclusions without a knowledge as to their source and as to how they came about.
The sources of mistakes lie mainly in the nature of Jewry and its historical development, in its millenary restless wandering, the countless admissions and withdrawals, the efforts at assimilation, the mixtures with the host peoples, the efforts of Jews to avoid registration and finally the wrong or wrongly interpreted statistics about Jewry.

Furthermore statistics – partially as a statistical makeshift, partially due to the wide coincidence between Jewish faith and Jewish race, partially in ignorance of the idea of race, partially due to the religious thinking of the respective time – have until lastly recorded Jews according to their religious confession and almost never according to their race. The recording of the race requires a training of many years and also ancestry research. It also turned out to be difficult mainly in the southern and eastern countries, given that despite all coincidence a uniform Jewish race was difficult to delimitate. The adhesion to Mosaic or Israeli faith in turn is no fully valid proof, given that due to the former Jewish missionary movement with its taking in of heathens and Christians, and also due to conversions to Jewry and mixed marriages in more recent times, there are not a few confessional Jews of non-Jewish race, while on the other hand forced christianizing and the number of baptized Jews that again increased in the last century, together with the number of non-confessionals of Jewish race, brought down the number of Jews. In 1893 Leroy-Beaulieu estimated the loss of Jewry to Christianity at four to ten times its present-day adherents; according to Maurice Fishberg and Mathias Mieses three time the actual number of Jews have merged with Aryan Europe. Even Hans Günther estimates the number of Jews in Germany at double the number of Jews of Mosaic faith who have German citizenship. The Lithuanian Jew Brutzkus even goes as far as to consider the Jews of Berlin as more pure Europeans, according to the composition of their blood, than the Germans of Berlin.

In accordance with these opinions the number of racial Jews including half-breeds in Europe has been frequently calculated as three times as high as that of the confessional Jews (twice as high in Eastern Europe, four times as high in Central Europe, even eight times as high in the rest of Europe), and the portion of more of less Jewish blood in the European population has been calculated at more or less 6 per cent. On the other hand Burgdörfer estimated the number of Jews in Germany in 1933 at 850 000 full, half and quarter Jews (with 502 799 confessional Jews) and the number of Jews in Austria in 1934 at 300-400 000 (with 191 738 confessional Jews). The recording of racial Jews at the German census on 1939 resulted in 307 892 confessional Jews and the only a little higher number of 330 892 full Jews, 72 738 half Jews and 42 811 quarter Jews, numbers that are by no means to be considered reliable especially in what concerns the half – and quarter Jews. The numbers obtained can thus only be considered as minimum numbers. They came about through the question “Was or is one of the 4 grandparents a full Jew?” contained in a “supplementary form” to the list of households of the 1939 census, which had to be answered by “yes” or “no” for each grandparent. As the supplementary form was to be delivered in a closed envelope and thus beyond control on site, it was wrongly filled in. In many cases only lines were drawn in the respective field, instead of an answer.

The first official attempt to record the Jews according to their race was immediately sabotaged by the Jews. It happened at the Austrian census of 7 March 1923. Vice Chancellor Dr. Frank (Greater German People’s Party) signed a decree shortly before the census, according to which under question 7 of the census sheet (language) "ethnicity and race" were also to be indicated. As the census sheets had already been printed, this was only pointed out in a red reminder sheet without clarification and examples. The Austrian Jews sabotaged this question pursuant to the request, forwarded to its readers by the Jewish-Marxist press on the day immediately before the census date, to answer the question about the race with “white”. The result was that “the “white race turned out to be as widely represented in Austria as the sphere of influence of the Jewish-Marxist press and political parties was”. Only in Kärnten and in the Burgenland the processing of the material was carried out with rather dubious success, in all other federal states and principally in Vienna, however, it was given up as being pointless."
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=2097
Last edited by trevor on Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby Wroclaw » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:07 pm)

But there's no indication there that Korherr was relied upon for the Wannsee numbers. And this report is more than a year later, yes?

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby Ray Barren » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:18 pm)

Wroclaw wrote:Certainly the estimates for the Baltic states are ridiculously low


Wroclaw there is reason that most Jews were not living in Baltic states anymore. It is because they were shot, and few fled to hide or retreat with Soviet Union.
I am new to the Holocaust debate because I never knew anyone who questioned the event in history. Here for good and free exchange of ideas on Holocaust.

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby Wroclaw » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:20 pm)

Ray Barren wrote:
Wroclaw wrote:Certainly the estimates for the Baltic states are ridiculously low


Wroclaw there is reason that most Jews were not living in Baltic states anymore. It is because they were shot, and few fled to hide or retreat with Soviet Union.


I agree.


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