How many guards in each camp?

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mincuo
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How many guards in each camp?

Postby mincuo » 8 years 8 months ago (Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:09 pm)

Hello. I'm new here. Sorry for my bad English.
I have just a question about the Holocaust.
Do we know the number of guards in each extermination camp? If so, do we know each ratio between guards and inmates?
1) If the ratio is, to say 1 guards and very many inmates, like in Treblinka, and if the inmates "knew" for sure, because they spoke with others, that they were to be exterminated, so we have to consider continuos revolts, dulled in the blood, (and we should have many testimonies of those killing, but  I don't know so many and continuous large revolts and killings). The reason is that everyone, sure to be killed, tries to escape, because to escape is anyway prior than every other consideration. I mean, what then inmates will do, where they will go, once escaped, etc...those are only successive problems. The first problem is a way, whatever,  to live, if you are sure to be killed.
2) If the ratio is 1 guard and very many inmates, but they didn't fear to be exterminated, they didn't try too much to escape IMO. Just because: where they escape? What and how they will have to eat? Where they will hide? how they will live once escaped? And moreover, they will surely be hounded, and may be killed for punition. The risk is very high, and the future of escaping very uncertain. In other words the previous 1) "successive problem" in the case of fear for life, is now 2) the first problem.
Conversely the low number of guards (if it was really low) is just the prove that the Nazists didn't fear too much revolts, and so they realized that they didn't need a big number, because they knew that a escape was not a real option for the inmates. But this is also the prove that inmates didn't really fear for life, or at least they didn't fear for a sure extermination.
Another point of some importance also useful to know  is precisely what kind of weapons the mere guards in the watchtowers really had. I mean had  they guns, tommy-guns or machine-guns? There are some differences because to say a tommy had a hundred of bullets or so, but the machine-guns had quite more. In the case of tommies it's quite obvious that the "surely be gassed" thousands of inmates against each guard could be reasonably sure to get a success in overruning them. Even in psycological terms it could be an additional and convincing point and  to persuade all the people to try that desperate enterprise. In the case of machine-guns the fear to be killed anyway in a very large number could be a brake, and so more difficult to convince the people. Sorry if I'm saying silly arguments.
Beati monoculi in terra caecorum

trevor
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Re: How many guards in each camp?

Postby trevor » 8 years 8 months ago (Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:58 am)

Treblinka extermination camp
"From August 1942 Treblinka was run by camp commandant SS-Obersturmfuehrer Franz Stangl, who had previously served as commander of the Sobibor extermination camp. Stangl's deputy was Kurt Franz. They were assisted by 20--30 SS men (who had participated in the Euthanasia Program), and 90--120 Ukrainian soldiers who worked as camp guards."

Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, edited by Robert Rozett and Shmuel Spector, G.G. The Jerusalem Publishing House Ltd.
http://www.answers.com/topic/treblinka- ... ation-camp

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Re: How many guards in each camp?

Postby trevor » 8 years 8 months ago (Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:39 am)

Did they know? Just a few examples that they did. Such rumors spread with the speed of light..

Hertha Beese
“Standing in line for vegetables or something like that I told my neighbour standing next to me that now they start to kill the Jews in the concentration camps and they even make soap out of them.

And they said Frau Bonhoeffer, “if you don’t stop telling such horror stories you will end up in a concentration camp too and nobody of us can help you. It’s not true what you’re telling, you shouldn’t believe those things, you have them from the foreign broadcasts and they tell those things to make enemies for us.”

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... women.html


Survivor of Belzec
“We were told to undress before we go to the bath. I understood immediately what that meant.”
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... r/men.html


Chelmno
“When you receive this letter, Mama and I will no longer be alive.Though we were told that we are going to be resettled, we know where they are taking us--Chelmno--and no one has ever come back from there.”
http://www.nizkor.org/features/dentist/chapter-10.html


Auschwitz
“The cement platform was crowded with SS men, yelling and waving us impatiently out of the wagon. "Raus!" they yelled, as their dogs growled, showing menacing teeth. The word Auschwitz hung like a bad omen in the air. The impact shocked us. It was a ghastly sound that no one repeated. We knew that that word stood for selections and death. We knew that in Auschwitz Jews were turned to ashes. Their net was closing around us.
……Rumor had it that Moll had played an important role in Auschwitz, where in less than six months he had risen from the rank of sergeant to Hauptscharführer and Kommandant. This meteoric ascension was due to his skill in killing. He had pioneered the dropping of canisters of the poison gas Zyklon B into the phony showers, which he accompanied with his favorite saying, "Laß sie fressen" (Let them eat).

http://www.nizkor.org/features/dentist/chapter-12.html



Hoess wrote in the " Kommandant in Auschwitz” that
everyone in the area knew of the exterminations (p. 159) the victims knew they were going to be gassed (pp. 110, 111, 125), but it was possible to fool them (pp. 123-124; Document 3868-PS)


A press article in Los Angeles Times from March 22, 1944 informing about crimes commited in KL Auschwitz.
http://en.auschwitz.org.pl/m/index.php? ... &Itemid=17



We know that the BBC was transmitting the propagandistic rumors about the gas chambers. And even the inmates of Auschwitz had possibility to somehow receive the BBC news.
From an inmate of Auschwitz:
“Finally, early in June 1944 we heard that the Americans had landed in Europe. The BBC reported their successes. This was the one step we felt would surely bring Hitler and his evil empire to an end.”
http://www.nizkor.org/features/dentist/chapter-14.html


Plenty of prisoners were transferred, released or escaped and could have informed the world.
“According to Dr. Piper the best estimates for the number of prisoners transferred from Auschwitz between 1940-45 was 212,820; the number released: 1,500; escaped: 500; and the number liberated by the Soviets at 8,000”

mincuo
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Re: How many guards in each camp?

Postby mincuo » 8 years 8 months ago (Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:56 am)

Thank you Trevor, but i knew. And I knew the guards number for Treblinka (you have to add the Ukranian POW who helped the SS, may be 100 or so, unarmed) What I asked was 1) if there is the precise number of guards for each camp (all the guards, not only those in the watchtowers) 2) For the guards in the watchtowers what weapons they had. I don't find those numbers or studies or documents. Now I have a Mattogno answer. There aren't complete studies on that question, for what he knows.
Beati monoculi in terra caecorum

trevor
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Re: How many guards in each camp?

Postby trevor » 8 years 8 months ago (Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:48 pm)

You might be interested in this:

DR. KAUFFMANN: And then the railway transports arrived. During what period did these transports arrive and about how many people, roughly, were in such a transport?
“HOESS: During the whole period up until 1944 certain operations were carried out at irregular intervals in the different countries, so that one cannot speak of a continuous flow of incoming transports. It was always a matter of 4 to 6 weeks. During those 4 to 6 weeks two to three trains, containing about 2,000 persons each, arrived daily. These trains were first of all shunted to a siding in the Birkenau region and the locomotives then went back. The guards who had accompanied the transport had to leave the area at once and the persons who had been brought in were taken over by guards belonging to the camp.
They were there examined by two SS medical officers as to their fitness for work. The internees capable of work at once marched to Auschwitz or to the camp at Birkenau and those incapable of work were at first taken to the provisional installations, then later to the newly constructed crematoria.
DR. KAUFFMANN: During an interrogation I had with you the other day you told me that about 60 men were designated to receive these transports, and that these 60 persons, too, had been bound to the same secrecy described before. Do you still maintain that today?
HOESS: Yes, these 60 men were always on hand to take the internees not capable of work to these provisional installations and later on to the other ones. This group, consisting of about ten leaders and subleaders, as well as doctors and medical personnel, had repeatedly been told, both in writing and verbally, that they were bound to the strictest secrecy as to all that went on in the camps.”


HERR LUDWIG BABEL (Counsel for SS): Witness, at the beginning of your examination you stated that when you were ordered to the Reichsfáhrer SS Himmler, he told you that the carrying out of this order of the Fáhrer was to be left to the SS and that the SS had been ordered to do it. What is to be understood under this general title SS?
HOESS: According to the explanations of the Reichsfáhrer, this could only mean the men guarding the concentration camps. According to the nature of the order only concentration camp crews and not the Waffen?SS could be concerned with the carrying out of this task.
HERR BABEL: How many members of the SS were assigned to concentration camps, and which units did they belong to?
HOESS: Toward the end of the war there were approximately 35,000 SS men and in my estimation approximately 10,000 men from the Army, Air Force, and the Navy detailed to the labor camps for guard duties.
HERR BABEL: What were the tasks of these guards? As far as I know, the duties varied. First, there was the actual guarding and then there was a certain amount of administrative work within the camp.
HOESS: Yes, that is correct.
HERR BABEL: How many guards were there within the camps for, let us say, 1,000 internees?
HOESS: You cannot estimate it in that way. According to my observations about 10 percent of the total number of guarding personnel were used for internal duties, that is to say, administration and supervision of internees within the camp, including the medical personnel of the camp.
HERR BABEL: So that 90 percent were therefore used far the exterior guarding, that is to say, for watching the camp from watch towers and for escorting the internees on work assignments.
HOESS: Yes.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/project ... stest.html



“Between 1933 and 1945, Nazi Germany established about 20,000 camps to imprison its many millions of victims.”

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10005144

trevor
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Re: How many guards in each camp?

Postby trevor » 8 years 8 months ago (Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:15 pm)

I do not know what are these estimates based on:

Various estimates indicate that the Auschwitz Concentration Camp SS garrison numbered 700 in 1941, about 2 thousand in June 1942, about 3 thousand in April 1944, and about 3,300 SS men and female overseers in August 1944. The peak figure came in mid-January 1945, in connection with the final evacuation of the camp, when there were 4,480 SS men and 71 female SS supervisors there.
http://en.auschwitz.org.pl/h/index.php? ... mitstart=2


The guards were spread in many places because Auschwitz had more than 40 subcamps.

Number of registered prisoners per year
http://en.auschwitz.org.pl/h/index.php? ... mitstart=2

The extermination story says 1 300 000 arrived to Auschwitz, 400 000 in total were registered and 900 000 were gassed upon arrival.
Most of them were gassed between the spring of 1943 and autumn of 1944. (400 000 Hungarians in summer of 1944). That is a lot of people to deal with.

Mojo
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Re: How many guards in each camp?

Postby Mojo » 8 years 8 months ago (Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:13 pm)

I assume there are German documents that illustrate these numbers or, is it all hearsay?

trevor
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Re: How many guards in each camp?

Postby trevor » 8 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:13 pm)

Treblinka I, with the average number of 1000 – 1200 inmates at any given moment seem to have the same number of armed guards as Treblinka II where they had to control and kill more than 6000 people a day (the claim is that between 23 July and September 5,
265 000 Jews were brought there and shot or gassed upon arrival)


Treblinka I – forced labor camp
The authorities at the Treblinka I forced-labor camp consisted of a small staff of German SS and police officials (between 15 and 25) and a police auxiliary guard of approximately 90 men, all of whom had been trained at the Trawniki training camp.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10005193
At any given moment, on the average from 1,000-1,200 inmates were detained in the camp, their composition was constantly changing. The inmates worked in the gravel pit and at loading railway cars in Malkinia station. Some of them were employed in the camp workshops and the women on the camp farm. The regime was one of terror and starvation. More than 20,000 persons have passed through the camp.

Treblinka II – extermination camp
"From August 1942 Treblinka was run by camp commandant SS-Obersturmfuehrer Franz Stangl, who had previously served as commander of the Sobibor extermination camp. Stangl's deputy was Kurt Franz. They were assisted by 20--30 SS men (who had participated in the Euthanasia Program), and 90--120 Ukrainian soldiers who worked as camp guards."


In all, between 870,000 and 925,000 people were killed in Treblinka II.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10007257


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