Blobel, Treblinka

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Blobel, Treblinka

Postby nathan » 8 years 6 months ago (Fri May 06, 2011 5:05 am)

Following Himmler’s visit of July 17 1942, SS-standartefuher Paul Blobel arrived in Auschwitz from Eichmann’s office bearing a verbal order from Himmler that “all the mass graves were to be opened and the corpses burnt. In addition the ashes were to be disposed of in such a way that it would be impossible at some future time to calculate the number of corpses burnt.” So wrote Hoess in his memoirs. Blobel “had been authorised to seek out and obliterate the mass graves in the whole of the eastern districts.” Hoess said that Blobel, who served with Einsatzgruppe C in the southern sector, had a fairly exact knowledge of all the eastern graves.


Supposing all this to be true, an obvious question is why Himmler chose this moment to allow a program involving the burial of some 800,000 bodies at Treblinka.

The first railway transports of victims destined for destruction arrived at the camp on July 23, 1942, and from that time until approximately the middle of December, 1942, there was a constant stream of fresh arrivals. After New Year, 1943, the number of transports began to diminish. In February or March, 1943, Himmler visited the camp, and after this a whole-sale burning of corpses was undertake
-The 1946 Polish Central Commission investigation:


AT Sobibor and Belzec, things happened earlier.

Hundreds of thousands of corpses of people murdered in the death camps during the spring and summer of 1942 lay in huge mass graves. In the autumn of 1942 the camp commandants of Sobibor and Belzec decided to incinerate the corpses; in Treblinka, a start on this was made only in 1943. However, the idea to remove all signs of the crimes was not new. In the spring of 1942 Himmler had decided that in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union, the corpses of the murdered Jews and Russian prisoners of war were to be exhumed from the graves and incinerated without leaving any traces. The same was to be done with the past and future victims of the extermination camps.

From: Operation Reinhard': Extermination Camps of Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka," Edited by Aharon Weiss, Yad Vashem Studies XVI, Yad Vashem Martyr's and Heroes' Remembrance Authority, Jerusalem, 198


Regarding Chelmno::


In the spring of 1942 two crematoria were built, and after that, all the dead were burnt in them (and the bodies previously buried as well).
From: -The Polish Central Commission


I shall assume that Himmler’s February visit to Treblinka is a figment of propaganda, quite probably derived from Wiernik’s seminal memoir A Year in Treblinka. I shall also assume, as against Wiernik, that the Katyn massacre cannot explain the chronology of the German exhumation decisions.

The Yad Vashem explanation is that no explanation is necessary. It was all up to the local commanders. Easy come, easy go. Commanders could choose to to bury rather than to burn, even if they knew, on one reading, that one day they would have to unbury and then burn.

It might be more rational to synchronise the Treblinka concealment with the fortunes of war, although though I have never seen anyone make the case. Some accounts read as if the purpose of the alleged exhumations was to conceal “the eternal shame” from posterity. But the Nazis had no shame and were not afraid of posterity; they were afraid of the Red Army. Yet for some reason it was not until September 1942 that Blobel, by his own account, was able to convey Mueller’s June 1942 order to the German civil authority in Kiev, who were mysteriously “disinclined” to carry it out. It was not until June 1943 that any action was begun - the resurrections at Treblinka apparently coming earlier than resurrections four hundred miles closer to the eastern front. Putting that long delay aside, one might still argue that before Stalingrad the Nazis had never ever been expected to reach the borders of “Greater Germany” and its burial grounds. In June 42 the eastern front was unthreatening. But on March 1943, in the wake of calamity, Himmler might have adopted a defeatist perspective. Better get cracking on those AR camps - even though the Russians were nearly a thousand miles away from Lublin.

However, that would not at all explain why they had in 1942 already got cracking on Sobibor and Belzec, to say nothing of the more westerly Auschwitz and Chelmno.

According to Blobel’s second written affidavit:

Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich and Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, and in June 1942 I was entrusted by Gruppenfuehrer Mueller with the task of obliterating the traces of executions carried out by the Einsatzgruppen in the East. My orders were that I should report in person to the commanders of the Security Police and SD, pass on Mueller’s orders verbally, and supervise their implementation. This order was top secret and Gruppenfuehrer Mueller had given orders that owing to the need for strictest secrecy there was to be no correspondence in connection with this task
....In May and June 1943 I made additional trips to Kiev in this matter and then, after conversations with Dr. Thomas and with SS and Police Leader Hennecke, the order was carried out
.....During my visit in August [1943]I myself observed the burning of bodies in a mass grave near Kiev. This grave was about 55 m. long, 3 m. wide and 2½ m. deep. After the top had been removed the bodies were covered with inflammable material and ignited. It took about two days until the grave burned down to the bottom. I myself observed that the fire had glowed down to the bottom. After that the grave was filled in and the traces were now practically obliterated.
4. Owing to the moving up of the front-line it was not possible to destroy the mass graves further south and east which had resulted from executions by the Einsatzgruppen. I traveled to Berlin in this connection to report, and was then sent to Estonia by Gruppenfuehrer Mueller. I passed on the same orders to Oberfuehrer Achammer-Pierader in Riga, and also to Obergruppenfuehrer Jeckeln. I returned to Berlin in order to obtain fuel. The burning of the bodies began only in May or June 1944. I remember that incinerations took place in the area of Riga and Reval. I was present at such incinerations near Reval, but the graves were smaller here and contained only about 20 to 30 bodies. The graves in the area of Reval were about 20 or 30 kms. east of the city in a marshy district and I think that 4 or 5 such graves were opened and the bodies burned.
5. According to my orders I should have extended my duties over the entire area occupied by the Einsatzgruppen, but owing to the retreat from Russia I could not carry out my orders completely....
I have made this disposition of my own free will, without any kind of promise of reward, and I was not subjected to any form of compulsion or threat


From NMT Einsatzgruppen trial affidavit NO-3947, 18 June 1947:
See: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... obel1.html


I do not know what Blobel said when he took the stand. But we have been told something that someone said he had previously said, in the account written by the colourful presiding Judge, Michael Musmanno.

Although Blobel asserted that he acted legally at all times, he was concerned about the evidence he left of his executions. So also were Himmler, Mueller and Eichmann back in Berlin because it was not too certain now [=June 1942] that Germany could hold the terrain taken from Russia. The long graves spoke too clearly of mass murder. Blobel was called back to Eichmann's headquarters at 116 Kurfürstenstrasse where he was given orders signed by Mueller to erase evidence of the killings, by opening the graves and burning the corpses. The burning process was not too successful, so Blobel resorted to dynamiting.
Rudolf Hoess, commandant of the Auschwitz Concentration Camp, co-operated with Blobel in the operation and reported that "the ashes, ground to dust in a bone mill, were thrown in the vast forests around&quot.
Despite these attempts to dissolve the ghosts which could rise to haunt him, Blobel was boastful of his bloody handiwork. A witness, Albert Hartel, called by Blobel himself, testified to being with the red-bearded defendant in Kiev in March 1942. One day Blobel took him into the country to show him around. Suddenly Hartel became frightened, he recalled, by the fact that the earth was heaving beneath their feet. Under questioning by Dr Heim, Blobel's own lawyer, Hartel explained: "There were some kind of eruptions, a kind of explosion, and I asked Blobel what it was, and he said: 'Here my Jews are buried."' just as a wild-game hunter might proudly point to a tiger he had bagged in the jungle –

- Michael Musmanno, JUSTICE, 1961


Hoess recalls that he visited Chelmno in order to learn from Blobel’s early experiments in body disposal. He relates that dynamiting the corpses had proved a failure; open air cremation was better. But Musmanno, having presided over the long court case, remembers it the other way round.

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Re: Blobel, Treblinka

Postby Hans » 8 years 6 months ago (Sat May 07, 2011 11:17 am)

nathan wrote:
I shall assume that Himmler’s February visit to Treblinka is a figment of propaganda, quite probably derived from Wiernik’s seminal memoir A Year in Treblinka. I shall also assume, as against Wiernik, that the Katyn massacre cannot explain the chronology of the German exhumation decisions.


Nathan, I think this link may be of some interest for you.

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Re: Blobel, Treblinka

Postby nathan » 8 years 6 months ago (Sun May 08, 2011 5:33 am)

Skimming through the fragmented polemic linked by Hans, I did not catch any direct evidence that Himmler went to Treblinka. But I am quite ready to assume that he did so. I had not known that there was a wartime document placing Himmler in Lublin in March. Why did I not know? “Ignorance,madam, pure ignorance” It was not through “blindly” following Mattogno but through incredulously reading Wiernik that I had concluded the visit itself might be a figment. I find it so hard to credit anything he says.

Wiernik:
This was the period when the Germans talked a lot about Katyn, which they used for anti-Soviet propaganda purposes. One day, by accident, we got hold of a newspaper from which we learned about that mass killing. It was probably these reports that made Himmler decide to visit Treblinka personally and to give orders that henceforth all the corpses of inmates should be cremated. There were plenty of corpses to cremate-there was no one who could have been blamed for the Treblinka killings except the Germans who, for the time being, were the masters of the land which they had wrested from us [Poles] by brute force. They did not want any evidence of the mass murders left.

[ie, it being impossible, in this case, falsely to accuse the Russians]
.......
Work was begun to cremate the dead. It turned out that bodies of women burned more easily than those of men. Accordingly, the bodies of women were used for kindling the fires. Since cremation was hard work, rivalry set in between the labor details as to which of them would be able to cremate the largest number of bodies. Bulletin boards were rigged up and daily scores were recorded. Nevertheless, the results were very poor. The corpses were soaked in gasoline. This entailed considerable expense and the results were inadequate; the male corpses simply would not burn. Whenever an airplane was sighted overhead, all work was stopped, the corpses were covered with foliage as camouflage against aerial observation.
.......

All this made no impression whatsoever on the German murderers, who stood around watching as if they were checking a machine which was not working properly and whose production was inadequate.

Then, one day, an Oberscharfuhrer wearing an SS badge arrived at the camp and introduced a veritable inferno. He was about 45 years old, of medium height, with a perpetual smile on his face. His favorite word was "tadellos [perfect]" and that is how he got the by-name Tadellos. His face looked kind and did not show the depraved soul behind it. He got pure pleasure watching the corpses burn; the sight of the flames licking at the bodies was precious to him, and he would literally caress the scene with his eyes.
This is the way in which he got the inferno started. He put a machine for exhuming the corpses into operation, an excavator which could dig up 3,000 corpses at one time. A fire grate made of railroad tracks was placed on concrete foundations 100 to 150 meters in length. The workers piled the corpses on the grate and set them on fire.

......The gangsters are standing near the ashes, shaking with satanic laughter. Their faces radiate a truly satanic satisfaction. They toasted the scene with brandy and with the choicest liqueurs, ate, caroused and had a great time warming themselves by the fire.
......


The cremation of the corpses proved an unqualified success. Because they were in a hurry, the Germans built additional fire grates and augmented the crews serving them, so that from 10,000 to 12,000 corpses were cremated at one time. The result was one huge inferno, which from the distance looked like a volcano breaking through the earth's crust to belch forth fire and lava. The pyres sizzled and crackled. The smoke and heat made it impossible to remain close by. It lasted a long time because there were more than half a million dead to dispose of


Even if a Himmler March visit was as well attested as the two visits to Auschwitz, it would not answer the question why, as alleged, he ordered a cover-up at the other camps in 1942 while at the largest of all crime scenes he delayed the cover-up so vividly described by Wiernik until March1943. I should state here I am assuming that it was Himmler who gave all the important orders, and that that an important order from Himmler would never be disobeyed. Not everyone shares that assumption. I read on the Holocaust Education website that:.

During his visit to Treblinka, Himmler learnt that despite his orders, the corpses of the Jews had been buried and not cremated. In order to destroy all traces of the mass extermination, he commanded that the corpses be cremated, and this activity became the main task in the camp’s final months. –

- H.E.A.R.T


I think that such disobedience to Himmler’s orders is just a hypothesis. But people need a hypothesis only when there is something that needs to be explained.

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Re: Blobel, Treblinka

Postby Ray Barren » 8 years 6 months ago (Sun May 08, 2011 9:37 am)

nathan wrote:Even if a Himmler March visit was as well attested as the two visits to Auschwitz, it would not answer the question why, as alleged, he ordered a cover-up at the other camps in 1942 while at the largest of all crime scenes he delayed the cover-up so vividly described by Wiernik until March1943. I should state here I am assuming that it was Himmler who gave all the important orders, and that that an important order from Himmler would never be disobeyed. Not everyone shares that assumption. I read on the Holocaust Education website that:.

During his visit to Treblinka, Himmler learnt that despite his orders, the corpses of the Jews had been buried and not cremated. In order to destroy all traces of the mass extermination, he commanded that the corpses be cremated, and this activity became the main task in the camp’s final months. –

- H.E.A.R.T


I think that such disobedience to Himmler’s orders is just a hypothesis. But people need a hypothesis only when there is something that needs to be explained.


I am having a hard time working out your own thesis with this thread and therefore the point to your posts. Do you agree with the Holocaust Education website thesis? I don't but I generally find their articles poorly constructed and not very useful. The poster they have on this forum also weirds me out so I may be biased. Do you accept that these cremations took place? Did none of them? Some? Please clear this up for your audience.

I am also a bit shocked by your seemingly joyful negligence of research Nathan. remember, the almighty helps those who help themselves.
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Re: Blobel, Treblinka

Postby nathan » 8 years 6 months ago (Mon May 09, 2011 12:10 am)

HEART explain the standard timetable for Treblinka by suggesting that Himmler’s order to bury the bodies was disobeyed for months. I say it is very unlikely that Himmler’s orders would be so disobeyed. It must follow that I think the HEART explanation is very unlikely. Think about it

Evidence for millions of bodies was never found. The standard explanation is a narrative in which millions of bodies were dug up and burned. The plausibility of that narrative is the subject of this thread. If Barren has anything to say on that subject, resulting from his very serious researches, let him say it. The subject of this thread is not me.

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Re: Blobel, Treblinka

Postby The Warden » 8 years 5 months ago (Sun May 15, 2011 9:57 am)

I will never understand the reasoning behind the claims of German officials attempting to "cover up" the graves. They were already gathering and transporting people out of the territory. They were already at war. "In for a dime, in for a dollar". What was to be gained from a successful "cover up" of graves? A lighter sentence? :?
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Re: Blobel, Treblinka

Postby fountainhead » 8 years 5 months ago (Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:03 pm)

The Warden wrote:I will never understand the reasoning behind the claims of German officials attempting to "cover up" the graves. They were already gathering and transporting people out of the territory. They were already at war. "In for a dime, in for a dollar". What was to be gained from a successful "cover up" of graves? A lighter sentence? :?


I'm just throwing this out there, but isn't it possible they were trying to cover up the graves but not to hide evidence of a genocide? Perhaps Himmler, knowing how much of a propaganda victory it was to show the world the bodies from the Katyn massacre, didn't want to give the Soviets ammunition to carry out a similar propaganda campaign.
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Re: Blobel, Treblinka

Postby The Warden » 8 years 5 months ago (Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:36 pm)

fountainhead wrote:
The Warden wrote:I will never understand the reasoning behind the claims of German officials attempting to "cover up" the graves. They were already gathering and transporting people out of the territory. They were already at war. "In for a dime, in for a dollar". What was to be gained from a successful "cover up" of graves? A lighter sentence? :?


I'm just throwing this out there, but isn't it possible they were trying to cover up the graves but not to hide evidence of a genocide? Perhaps Himmler, knowing how much of a propaganda victory it was to show the world the bodies from the Katyn massacre, didn't want to give the Soviets ammunition to carry out a similar propaganda campaign.


Anything is possible, but plausibility is not fact. It's theory, and without physical evidence to support it, it remains theory.
Why would they care about propaganda if they were literally "executing" thousands of Jews a day in the middle of a war in their own occupied territory? It's not as if the propaganda would stop based on anything the Germans did. As stated already, they were already in a war, propaganda and otherwise. To think the Germans would execute millions in an effort to rid Germany of all Jewish influence, and then worry about what propaganda might result is ludicrous. What's to gain from spending all that time and those resources on a cover up when the propaganda was already showing them doing it anyway?
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Re: Blobel, Treblinka

Postby Balsamo » 8 years 5 months ago (Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:12 pm)

I will never understand the reasoning behind the claims of German officials attempting to "cover up" the graves. They were already gathering and transporting people out of the territory. They were already at war. "In for a dime, in for a dollar". What was to be gained from a successful "cover up" of graves? A lighter sentence?


Or just maybe, even in the third reich, such actions were illegal, or at least not backed by laws? And that even in case of a German victory, this "action" could have been a "bomb" that could later be used by some of his ennemies to get rid of him? Relations between Nazi leaders were far from friendly between each others...And in some cases, too much power led to "aticipate disgrace" (eg Röhm in the early days, or, later, Albert Speer, or at the very end Goering and Himmler themselves)?
Pure speculation, of course, but every government of the world tends to try "covering" their illegal actions one way or another...And in this case, the SS were not even a "government body"!

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Re: Blobel, Treblinka

Postby fountainhead » 8 years 5 months ago (Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:45 pm)

The Warden wrote:Anything is possible, but plausibility is not fact. It's theory, and without physical evidence to support it, it remains theory. Why would they care about propaganda if they were literally "executing" thousands of Jews a day in the middle of a war in their own occupied territory? It's not as if the propaganda would stop based on anything the Germans did. As stated already, they were already in a war, propaganda and otherwise. To think the Germans would execute millions in an effort to rid Germany of all Jewish influence, and then worry about what propaganda might result is ludicrous. What's to gain from spending all that time and those resources on a cover up when the propaganda was already showing them doing it anyway?

Well, I was thinking even if, as we assert, there was no extermination program, the mere presence of thousands of bodies that had died from disease could be twisted by the Soviets for propaganda purposes both during and after the war. And whaddaya know, they still managed to use the propaganda without the bodies, possibly to an even greater extent than if the bodies had been there! The Germans cremated the bodies??? There's no telling how many they've killed! Probably millions!
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Re: Blobel, Treblinka

Postby Balsamo » 8 years 5 months ago (Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:45 pm)

hey, the topic is about Treblinka...

Why would many people die from Typhys in a transit-camp where they are supposed only to be deloused, fed, before being sent to their new home ?
Why, by the way, would their luggages and stuffs be taken from them there ?

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Re: Blobel, Treblinka

Postby Hannover » 8 years 5 months ago (Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:50 pm)

If Blobel really said this:
4. Owing to the moving up of the front-line it was not possible to destroy the mass graves further south and east which had resulted from executions by the Einsatzgruppen.

It would shatter the Holocaust Industry's claim that the Germans destroyed all the evidence. And the elephant in the room, if these mass graves were true, then why haven't they been excavated and their contents put on display? Surely Blobel could have directed the Soviets to the sites ... if the "holocaust by bullets" claim was true of course.

This is too easy.

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Re: Blobel, Treblinka

Postby Hannover » 8 years 5 months ago (Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:02 pm)

Balsamo wrote:hey, the topic is about Treblinka...

Why would many people die from Typhys in a transit-camp where they are supposed only to be deloused, fed, before being sent to their new home ?
Why, by the way, would their luggages and stuffs be taken from them there ?

To clarify; Treblinka I - labor camp, Treblinka II - transit camp.
for more see:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p133_Allen.html
excerpts:
Treblinka Labor Camp
About one mile (1.5 km) from the "extermination camp," which was known as "Treblinka II," was a penal labor camp for Poles and Jews known as "Treblinka I." It was not at all secret. The 1941 directive announcing the establishment of the "Treblinka Labor Camp" was published in both Polish and German in widely distributed official journals. (note 31) Poles and Jews worked in a large sand and gravel quarry at the Treblinka labor camp. (note 32)

As wartime aerial reconnaissance photographs clearly show, the Treblinka T-I labor camp was located at the end of the rail spur on which the Treblinka T-II "extermination" (transit) camp was also located. This fact strengthens the thesis that the T-II camp was not particularly secret, since penal labor prisoners being taken by train to and from the publicly known T-I camp passed directly by the supposedly top secret T-II "extermination" camp. (note 33)Transit Camp
If Treblinka was not an extermination center, what was it? As already mentioned, the balance of evidence indicates that Treblinka II -- along with Belzec and Sobibor -- was a transit camp, where Jewish deportees were stripped of their property and valuables before being transferred eastwards into German-occupied Soviet territories. (note 43)

Transit Camp
The generally-accepted story is that Treblinka II was a "pure" extermination center, from which no Jew was permitted to leave alive. (note 44) However, credible reports of deportations of Jews from Treblinka refute the allegation that all Jews sent there were destined for extermination, and indicate instead that the camp functioned as a transit center.

In the aftermath of the April 1943 Warsaw ghetto uprising, for example, Jews were transported from Warsaw to Treblinka II. As some of the deportees later confirmed, after a "selection" in the camp, trainloads of hundreds of Jews were taken from Treblinka to Lublin (Majdanek), and possibly other camps. (note 45) Several thousand Jews (at least) were transferred by German authorities from Treblinka to other camps, a postwar German court determined. (note 46)

Letters and postcards that arrived in the Warsaw ghetto from Jews who, by all accounts, had been deported to Treblinka, indicate that the camp was a transit center from where Jews were resettled in the occupied Soviet territories. These messages, which arrived from settlements and camps in Belarus (Byelorussia), Ukraine, and even Russia proper (near Smolensk), were written by Jews who had been deported in 1942. Some letters and cards had been sent by mail and some had arrived through the underground. Many mentioned that the senders were working hard, but confirmed that they (and often their children) were being fed. (note 47)

Completely contrary to its supposed character as a top secret extermination center, Treblinka was neither secret nor even closely guarded, as both former inmates and officials have confirmed. "Secrecy? Good heavens, there was no secrecy about Treblinka," Jewish prisoner Richard Glazer later testified. "All the Poles between there and Warsaw must have known about it, and lived off the proceeds. All the peasants came to barter, the Warsaw whores did business with the Ukrainians -- it was a circus for all of them." Polish farmers worked the fields that directly adjoined the camp. "And many others," said Jewish survivor Berek Rojzman, "came to the fence to barter, mostly with the Ukrainians, but with us too." (note 48)

Even regular German concentration camps such as Dachau and uchenwald were much more closely guarded than Treblinka. As already mentioned, aerial reconnaissance photographs taken in 1944 confirm that the area around Treblinka was not cleared. The photos show that one perimeter of the camp passed through a wooded area, and that cultivated fields where Polish farmers worked were directly adjacent to the camp perimeter. (note 49)


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