Cremation pits in swamps / '20,000 bodies a day were burned'

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Re: Cremation pits in swamps / '20,000 bodies a day were bur

Postby fountainhead » 9 years 5 months ago (Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:27 pm)

Turpitz wrote:Of course they will try and change the story, but that is nothing new. But one must appreciate, every time they do that, they end up digging themselves deeper and deeper.

Actually, in this case, I wonder why they haven't changed the story. A lot of Revisionist arguments focus on the physical impossibility of disposing of the massive numbers of bodies purported in the story. If the Exterminationists were to simply say, "Yes, the number of victims was probably not as high as initially thought," then it might have been possible for the Germans to dispose of the bodies in this manner and the Revisionist argument would be foiled. I'm surprised I don't see numbers being revised lower more often.
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Re: Cremation pits in swamps / '20,000 bodies a day were bur

Postby Hannover » 9 years 5 months ago (Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:04 pm)

Actually, in this case, I wonder why they haven't changed the story.

Indeed, it's hard to imagine a more ridiculous storyline. But there it is.

Hateful Jewish Supremacists are not as smart as they would like everyone to believe. They've painted themselves into a corner and must now resort to continuous lies and dirty tricks to keep it all going.

Does anyone know if they actually investigated this pond for ashes? I would imagine the ash sediment should still exist since it's just a pond.

Investigate? Are you kidding? They know damn well nothing is there that conforms to the storyline.

Revisionists have it easy, all we have to do is tell the truth.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Cremation pits in swamps / '20,000 bodies a day were bur

Postby Werd » 9 years 5 months ago (Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:36 pm)

Does anyone know if they actually investigated this pond for ashes? I would imagine the ash sediment should still exist since it's just a pond.

Uh oh, you've done it now. Pretty soon now, they're going to declare those bodies of water memorial sites that are not allowed to be investigated or disturbed under jewish religious law. Thanks a lot for ruining it for us revisionists. :lol:

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Re: Cremation pits in swamps / '20,000 bodies a day were bur

Postby Hans » 9 years 5 months ago (Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:05 am)

Looking for ash in Auschwitz would in fact provide little additional information. Nobody - except for crematoria and open air incineration deniers - will deny that people were cremated in Auschwitz. So qualitatively ash proves little. Also we know from testimonies that it was tried by the Germans to remove ash which was previously buried and deposited in rivers. So quantitatively there is incomplete information gathered by looking for ash.
Last edited by Hans on Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:04 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Cremation pits in swamps / '20,000 bodies a day were bur

Postby Hannover » 9 years 5 months ago (Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:35 pm)

Hans wrote:Looking for ash in Auschwitz would in fact provide little additional information. Nobody - except for crematoria and open air incineration deniers - will deny that people were cremated in Auschwitz. So qualitatively ash proves little. Also we know from testimonies that it was tried by the Germans to remove ash which was previously buried and deposited in rivers. So quantitatively there is incomplete information gathered by looking for ash.

Hans, you're having trouble again. The claims are that masses of cremated Jews were dumped in these 'pits' at Auschwitz. That IS the claim. Finding remains which matched the story would be huge for Jewish Supremacism and the Holocaust Industry, huge. So why do you deny the very story that you attempt to defend?

Hans, here's the quote again:
In 1944, when the four Birkenau Krematoria could no longer keep pace with the rate of destruction, some 20,000 bodies a day were burned in this, and other pits. They were approximately 100 m. long.
And that's pretty amazing considering the water table at Auschwitz is what, about 12 inches below the surface? Oops.

No one denies that there were some open air cremations at Auschwitz/Birkenau when the typhus crematorium were in disrepair, no one. But the fact remains that a investigation would not reveal the quantity that the storyline claims should be there. And that is yet another problem for the laughable storyline.

Regardless of your claimed "testimonies" about hauling Jewish ashes into the river (reminds me of the hiliarious claim that Jews were made into fertilizer and spread over farm fields), there still should be massive amounts of ashes, above and beyond the amount that was due to the typhus crematorium problems. Why do you try to run from that fact?

And what "testimonies" are you supposedly referring to?
Where were these so called "testimonies" submitted? In courts of law? If so, show us the complete transcripts with verbatim cross examinations. Can't do that? OK, that's what I thought. Or perhaps they are from unverifiable communist 'publications' written by who knows who to mean whatever they wished. Aka, propaganda.

Again, your problems are compounded by the fact that your acclaimed 'eyewitness testimonies' claim these ashes were dumped into these pits. Once again, you're in denial of Jewish testimonies, how dare you.

Sorry Hans, you're convincing no one.

Revisionists simply expose the stupidity of the 'holocaust' storyline. Revisionists are just the messengers, the truly bizarre nature of the 'holocaust' nonsense is the message.

This really is too easy.

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Re: Cremation pits in swamps / '20,000 bodies a day were bur

Postby Moderator3 » 9 years 5 months ago (Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:32 pm)

Hans,
You have not provided information which you were challenged to give. IOW, you are dodging.
And what "testimonies" are you supposedly referring to?
Where were these so called "testimonies" submitted? In courts of law? If so, show us the complete transcripts with verbatim cross examinations. Can't do that? OK, that's what I thought. Or perhaps they are from unverifiable communist 'publications' written by who knows who to mean whatever they wished. Aka, propaganda.

Instead you recycle text which have been handled repeatedly in many threads. You're not debating in good faith.

Kingfisher, you have not addressed Hannover's specific points either. Your deleted post contained nothing other than to say Hannover was "cavalier". Perhaps you can address Hannover's specifics. Yes? No?

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Re: Cremation pits in swamps / '20,000 bodies a day were bur

Postby The Warden » 9 years 5 months ago (Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:18 pm)

Hans wrote:Looking for ash in Auschwitz would in fact provide little additional information. Nobody - except for crematoria and open air incineration deniers - will deny that people were cremated in Auschwitz. So qualitatively ash proves little. Also we know from testimonies that it was tried by the Germans to remove ash which was previously buried and deposited in rivers. So quantitatively there is incomplete information gathered by looking for ash.


Hans, are there any photos or documentation from that time specifically which shows the collection of ash in the areas of the river where any floating debris would gather? I don't feel the need to gather links at this time since I don't think anyone would dispute it, but anyone who has seen a large body of flowing water during seasonal changes or natural disasters has seen debris collect along the banks in small pooling areas where the water created tide pools off of the main current. Now if what you say is correct, and the Germans were unearthing the ash of thousands and dumping it in the rivers, don't you think it would've been noticed by someone downstream? That's a large amount of ash if we're to believe the amounts pointed out by Hannover, and something as fine as ash would certainly float.
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Re: Cremation pits in swamps / '20,000 bodies a day were bur

Postby Hannover » 9 years 5 months ago (Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:48 pm)

Kingfisher asks:
... what happened to the legitimate and undisputed ashes from the crematoria?

One can only assume that the cremation ashes, which were a result of the typhus abatement measures, are there. But since the 'holocaust' shysters know the amounts that are there won't conform to the propaganda, they don't dare make a verifiable, publicly observed attempt to find them.
It's simply a case of asking why Jewish Supremacists don't back up their loud mouth talk and show the world what they claim exists.
All they have is bluff and intimidation.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Cremation pits in swamps / '20,000 bodies a day were bur

Postby Kageki » 9 years 5 months ago (Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:48 am)

Hans wrote:Looking for ash in Auschwitz would in fact provide little additional information. Nobody - except for crematoria and open air incineration deniers - will deny that people were cremated in Auschwitz. So qualitatively ash proves little. Also we know from testimonies that it was tried by the Germans to remove ash which was previously buried and deposited in rivers. So quantitatively there is incomplete information gathered by looking for ash.


Those testimonies only mention rivers and not pits or ponds. Are there testimonies for dumping into pits or ponds at least?

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Re: Cremation pits in swamps / '20,000 bodies a day were bur

Postby Kingfisher » 9 years 5 months ago (Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:34 am)

Hannover wrote:Kingfisher asks:
... what happened to the legitimate and undisputed ashes from the crematoria?

One can only assume that the cremation ashes, which were a result of the typhus abatement measures, are there.
- Hannover

Is that the best we can manage? Not being rude or personal. I mean is there really no evidence at all as to how these were disposed of? Even with the smaller numbers under discussion, the volume of ash must have been substantial. Disposal in the soil, as is done in crematorium gardens, or in ponds, would seem not unreasonable. But are there no records we are aware of?

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Re: Cremation pits in swamps / '20,000 bodies a day were bur

Postby Pizzaman » 9 years 5 months ago (Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:01 pm)

I don't see why this is such a poser. Even if you accept (which you guys don't) that a million people were killed and gassed, what do you end up having?

1,000,000 * 200 cubic inches = 200,000,000 cubic inches

200,000,000 cubic inches = 116,000 cubic feet or about 50 ft x 50 ft x 50 ft = 2500 square feet x 50

Here's a 2500 square foot house

http://www.tampabay.com/multimedia/arch ... 30530c.jpg

I'd estimate two of those houses would cover it.

Now consider how long the camp was operating. Get the picture?

If you believe that only 70,000 people died there, then it's much easier to dispose of the ashes.

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Re: Cremation pits in swamps / '20,000 bodies a day were bur

Postby Hannover » 9 years 5 months ago (Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:33 pm)

Well, Pizzaman, I'm afraid the alleged "eyewitnesses" say otherwise, read on.
The 'holocaust' shysters don't dare excavate, they have been hoisted by their own petard.

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'Massive deep pit cremations at Auschwitz?'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=237

Open Air Incinerations in Auschwitz: Rumor or Reality?

Two Studies on the Ground Water Level in Auschwitz and its Consequences in History


Many former inmates as well as guards of the former National Socialist concentration camp Auschwitz-Birkenau claim that hundred thousands of corpses of murdered inmates were burned in ditches some 6 to 10 ft. deep. However, almost every book about Auschwitz points out that the entire grounds in and around the camp were swampy in those days.

Since the 1970s, Holocaust revisionists have therefore claimed that the incineration of corpses in deep ditches would have been impossible due to the high ground water table in this swampy area, which would have quickly filled any deep ditch. After this argument spread widely with the so-called Leuchter Report in 1988,[1] it was argued that the ground water level during the operation of the camp was significantly lowered with the help of a sophisticated system of drainage ditches, thus allowing the open air incineration of corpses in deep ditches as attested to by various witnesses.[2]

In May 2002, the controversy around Auschwitz focused even more on these open air incinerations, since a German mainstream journalist argued that most of the victims of the claimed mass murders of Auschwitz were supposedly disposed of using these open air incineration ditches.[3] Until recently, the effects of the ground water, and the questions arising from this matter, have not been investigated. Due to the availability of much-improved source materials after the end of the Cold War, this matter can now be investigated.

The following two studies have thoroughly examined the existing primary documentary sources dealing with the ground water table in Auschwitz during World War II. As a result, the correctness of eyewitness accounts claiming incinerations in deep ditches must be called into question. The documents do not allow for any different interpretation: in the Birkenau area, the ground water table was about 0.30 to 1.20 m beneath the surface.

Ground Water in the Area of the POW camp Birkenau

By Dipl.-Ing. Michael Gärtner, Dipl.-Ing. Werner Rademacher


1. Preliminary remarks about the Birkenau Camp

The camp Auschwitz-Birkenau, which is today generally referred to as "concentration and extermination camp", was originally designated as a "prisoner of war camp" at the end of 1941 by the German authorities.[4] The construction section BIa was finished in March 1942 and was occupied mostly by Soviet prisoners of war until August 1942. The designation of the camp remained the same, though it subsequently had more the character of a concentration camp, meaning that it was mainly filled with criminal and political prisoners, including Jews, rather than prisoners of war. The camp also bore the name "KL Auschwitz II". "KL" was the official German abbreviation for concentration camp.

A drawing of ours showing the camp’s state of construction in April/May 1942 is shown in Illustration 1. This drawing as well as many others are included in a study of ours about the history of the Auschwitz camp currently in preparation.[5] In the literature, maps of the Birkenau camp are very often false, since in almost all cases the final state of construction of late 1944 is shown, even if this map is used to refer to events that took place in earlier years. This leads to wrong assumptions and conclusions about events of the camp’s history.

2. What Events Are Reported?

2.1. BUNKER 1

According to witness testimony there was an old farmhouse to the north of the Birkenau camp which as of May 1942 was allegedly used as gas chamber for the killing of human beings, cf. Illustration 3. In its vicinity, the accounts state, there were mass graves which later were allegedly also used to burn corpses.[6] It must be noted that there are no indications of where this Bunker 1 allegedly stood.[7] The witness Benroubi testified:[8]

"They [the Sonderkommando men] put them [the corpses] in front of graves about 20m long, 3m wide and 2.50m.

There were about ten graves ready to receive the martyrs. Parallel to these open graves there were some that had been covered with earth and these extended over about 300 meters […]"

Witness Buki stated :[9]

"We took the trolleys to a grave about 40 meters long and I think about 6 meters wide [240 m2], which was about 100 meters away from the house."

Witness Garbarz said:[10]

"We saw big rectangles traced on the ground twenty or thirty meters wide by fifty or 60 meters long. In one of these rectangles the ground was stained red."

The witness indicates that he understood the rectangles to be grave plots. Later on he adds, regarding the depth of the pit, that it was approximately 1.5 m deep.[10]

There is no documentary evidence to corroborate these claims. Even J.-C. Pressac questions some of these witness statements, which furthermore are quite contradictory with respect to the number and size of the pits as well.[11]

2.2. BUNKER 2

[...]
http://www.vho.org/tr/2003/1/GaertnerRa ... r3-12.html

and:
Cremation Pits" and Ground Water Levels at Birkenau

By Carlo Mattogno

The article "Grundwasser im Gelände des KGL Kriegsgefangenenlager Birkenau" ("Ground Water Levels at Birkenau Prisoner of War Camp") by Michael Gärtner and Werner Rademarcher,[4] published in German for the first time in 1998 and reproduced in this edition, attempts to show that the existence of "cremation pits" in the courtyard of Crematorium V and the area around the so-called "Bunker 2", as described by several eyewitnesses, was a technical impossibility due to the high ground water levels at Birkenau.

Newly discovered documents now permit a more in-depth treatment of this important contention. Analysis of these documents is preceded here by a few comments of a more general nature.

Numerous documents from the Zentralbauleitung (Central Building Administration) of Auschwitz-Birkenau written between 1941 and 1944 refer to very high water tables at Birkenau, but we must first determine exactly what is meant, in concrete terms, by the references involved.

An "Explanatory Report on the Preliminary Design for the New Construction of the Waffen-SS Prisoner of War Camp, Auschwitz O/S", dated 30 October 1941, states as follows, under the headline "Building Land":[5]

"The soil characteristics are poor. Underneath the humus soil are loam and chalky clay, with imbedded gravel and subterranean sand banks of lesser dimensions. The ground water level fluctuates between 0.30 and 1.20 m. The terrain is marshy at the present time."

[...]
http://www.vho.org/tr/2003/1/Mattogno14-17.html
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Cremation pits in swamps / '20,000 bodies a day were bur

Postby Dresden » 9 years 5 months ago (Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:40 pm)

Pizzaman said:

"I don't see why this is such a poser. Even if you accept (which you guys don't) that a million people were killed and gassed, what do you end up having?"

30,000,000 teeth!
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Cremation pits in swamps / '20,000 bodies a day were bur

Postby Pizzaman » 9 years 5 months ago (Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:07 am)

I don't see the relationship between two houses' worth of ashes and pit cremations. What the witnesses say doesn't matter when analysing what is technically possible.

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Re: Cremation pits in swamps / '20,000 bodies a day were bur

Postby Hannover » 9 years 5 months ago (Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:10 pm)

Pizzaman wrote:I don't see the relationship between two houses' worth of ashes and pit cremations. What the witnesses say doesn't matter when analysing what is technically possible.

What the "eyewitnesses" said does matter. It's their preposterous nature which puts more nails in the 'holocaust' story coffin. I know you would like to run from their ridiculous statements, but the record is clear, in spite of your denial.

The thoroughly refuted and laughable "eyewitness" statements claim enormous amounts of ash which cannot be shown to exist, Pizzaman. Simple as that. I seriously doubt if your attempted deflection to house sizes will be useful in showing the world the massive amounts of human ashes which are claimed by the Holocaust Industry and the lying "eyewitnesses".
Again, just a few examples:
"They [the Sonderkommando men] put them [the corpses] in front of graves about 20m long, 3m wide and 2.50m.

There were about ten graves ready to receive the martyrs. Parallel to these open graves there were some that had been covered with earth and these extended over about 300 meters "

Witness Buki stated :[9]

"We took the trolleys to a grave about 40 meters long and I think about 6 meters wide, which was about 100 meters away from the house."

Witness Garbarz said:[10]

"We saw big rectangles traced on the ground twenty or thirty meters wide by fifty or 60 meters long. In one of these rectangles the ground was stained red."

I challenge you to show us the ashes as alleged, Pizzaman.

Revisionists are just the messengers, the utter absurdity of the 'holocaust' story is the message.

- Hannover
Last edited by Hannover on Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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