AR Survivors / Treblinka

[joachim neander]

@ Hannover:

1. You can't show us the forms you claimed to have studied.
2. Then you say "Of course nobody asked them explicitly, "Were you in camp X, Y, or Z ... ?"
3. Then you say "Those who accepted the questionnaires could not even know which camps, prisons, or ghettos existed during the 3rd Reich". Very doubtful, but those that wrote the claimed questionairres certainly would have.

ad 1: I apologize that I, nearly 20 years ago, could not have thought of making copies of these questionnaires for posting at CODOH . (BTW, this would have been against the law, as they contain very personal data.) I just looked, e.g., who had been at Dora and took notes of name, prisoner number and date of intake and/or transfer to another camp. It's the way historians use to work at archives. When you publish, you give the archival reference, and everybody can consult the archive and check.

ad 2 +3: Please take a look in the ICRC Catalog of Camps and Prisons under the Reichsführer SS (should be in your library). It's a big book in which about 1,000 places are listed. Do you really think it would have made sense to ask an applicant about every camp in the catalog? Wouldn't it have been much more efficient to ask her/him to write down where s/he had been during a certain period of time, and to give proof of it, as it was demanded by the authorities?

[Hannover]

I said:

1. You can't show us the forms you claimed to have studied.
2. Then you say "Of course nobody asked them explicitly, "Were you in camp X, Y, or Z ... ?"
3. Then you say "Those who accepted the questionnaires could not even know which camps, prisons, or ghettos existed during the 3rd Reich". Very doubtful, but those that wrote the claimed questionairres certainly would have.

Neander replied:

ad 1: I apologize that I, nearly 20 years ago, could not have thought of making copies of these questionnaires for posting at CODOH . (BTW, this would have been against the law, as they contain very personal data.) I just looked, e.g., who had been at Dora and took notes of name, prisoner number and date of intake and/or transfer to another camp. It's the way historians use to work at archives. When you publish, you give the archival reference, and everybody can consult the archive and check.

1. Then why make claims about them 20 years later?
2. I'm only interested in the raw form used at that time, prior to what someone filled in.
3. So why should anyone believe you when you cannot even show us what was asked?

- Hannover

[Hannover]

Pizzaman got all worked up and said:

Hannover, you say there are records of people going through Treblinka.

You've produced ZERO.

Time to produce some or leave the thread.

[and he said]:

We have three possibilities, as I see it:
(1) Treblinka II was an extermination camp
(2) Treblinka II was a transit camp
(3) Treblinka II was something else
However, in this thread, we are discussing (2).

I produced name after name of those who transited through Treblinka, with sources given.

Then, moving the goal posts, Pizzaman said:

The problem with the below is that NONE of the below were deported in the summer of 1942.

Who cares? The point is that you claim that Treblinka definitely was not a transit camp and was a place where everyone was "gassed upon arrival". I gave you name after name of those that were transited out of Treblinka, which wouldn't have happened if Treblinka had been a "pure extermination camp" as alleged in the unsustainable storyline.

- Hannover

[Pizzaman]

A few points to make here:

(1) I didn't get "worked up." We call that "projection."
(2) A camp being an extermination camp does not mean there were no survivors or that workers were not sent from there to other places. In fact, this is precisely WHY I indicated I wanted people who weren't work Jews and who were deported in the summer of 1942, such that it would have made no sense that they would still be there in August 1943, at the time of the revolt, and not have been workers or been on the SK. There is the necessity to learn nuance in discussing history. I figured people would know that.
(3) So I reiterate that Treblinka II was an extermination camp. The only goal of this camp was extermination. I am happy to demonstrate this on any other thread.
(4) As it would not have made sense to separate work Jews from Jews to be murdered while still at the point of departure, it only made sense to separate work Jews at the camp. These are the people to whom Hannover refers.
(5) A Jew who meets the five criteria remains an unmet challenge by Hannover and everyone else on this thread.

Pizzaman got all worked up and said:

Hannover, you say there are records of people going through Treblinka.

You've produced ZERO.

Time to produce some or leave the thread.

[and he said]:

We have three possibilities, as I see it:
(1) Treblinka II was an extermination camp
(2) Treblinka II was a transit camp
(3) Treblinka II was something else
However, in this thread, we are discussing (2).

I produced name after name of those who transited through Treblinka, with sources given.

Then, moving the goal posts, Pizzaman said:

The problem with the below is that NONE of the below were deported in the summer of 1942.

Who cares? The point is that you claim that Treblinka definitely was not a transit camp and was a place where everyone was "gassed upon arrival". I gave you name after name of those that were transited out of Treblinka, which wouldn't have happened if Treblinka had been a "pure extermination camp" as alleged in the unsustainable storyline.

- Hannover

[joachim neander]

Hannover said:

1. Then why make claims about them 20 years later?
2. I'm only interested in the raw form used at that time, prior to what someone filled in.
3. So why should anyone believe you when you cannot even show us what was asked?

ad 1: Well, I feel I have still a good memory. And if need be, you, Mr. Hannover, and I - we could travel to one of these archives in Germany and have a look at the files. Access is restricted, because they contain sensitive personal data, but I think together we could manage it. But neither you nor I would be allowed to make a xerox or to take a picture.
ad 2: I do not remember whether "raw forms" (blanks?) were archived, as their information content is zero. But if so, it would surely be no problem to make a copy.
ad 3: That seems to be a fundamental problem in Revisionism. Within the scholarly community, one is standing on the shoulders of generations of predecessors and co-researchers. As long as their results (and the methods used for obtaining these) comply with academic standards, they are trusted. Nobody would try to invent the wheel anew. This holds equally for the exact sciences. Do you believe that an engineer who uses a mathematical formula from his textbook, first proves it?

[Hannover]

Sorry, Neander, it was you who said you had your hands on the forms and curiously didn't include at least one in your 'studies' to show us.
Take note of the long list I provided of those who were proven to have been transited out of Treblinka, one has to wonder what their forms stated.
scroll down here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6534&start=15

Talk is cheap, Neander.

- Hannover

[joachim neander]

@ Hannover:

I'm not a Treblinka expert, as an historian, I'm specialized in Dora and Auschwitz. But AFAIK at the site called "Treblinka" there were two different camps, a small one that functioned similar to all concentration/forced labor camps, and a few miles away the other that Revisionists call a "transit camp." One should not make confusion with them. Between regular concentration/forced labor camps there was quite a lot of prisoner migration.

If you want to prove the transit camp hypothesis with those prisoners who were transferred out from "Treblinka," you must show that they had not been inmates of the small, conc/f.l. camp.

[stefanob]

I thought that the purpose of this thread was to clarify how was it possible that if Treblinka had been a mere transit camp, there were no evidences of people having just transited through Treblinka and survived.
Among other things, Hannover quoted a long list of documents reporting the transit of Jews through Treblinka. More details were given in the full article he linked.
I was quite surprised because this seems to be massive documental evidence of Treblinka being a transit camp. At this point we know that there are survivors (let's just say 'people passing there without being extreminated'). There was no reply to this documents.

Now we may argue why they didn't publicly declare to have transited at Treblinka, but not if they transited.

I also described the strong motivation one would have had to NOT report his transit in Treblinka, not to debunk its reputation as a pure extermination camp. No replies on this too.

So, considering that the thread orignally started with Raymond's question:

If Treblinka was a transit camp, where are those who passed through?

Does this mean the issue is closed?

[joachim neander]

@ stefanob:
Please remember that, at the place called "Treblinka," there were two camps, 2-3 miles apart. One was a small, regular concentration/forced labor camp, which was integrated into the system of prisoner migration between the camps, whereas the other was the very facility Revisionists call a "transit camp."

AFAIK all those listed by Mr. Hannover had been in the first mentioned camp. Their transfer to another place does not say anything about the other, the "transit camp," through which about 900,000 people must have passed, whose traces, however, miraculously vanished. They are the problem, and Revisionists should be able to give a convincing explanation - not speculations - why they did not leave any traces, though they (or at least the vast majority of them) allegedly did not die there.

Your explanation that the Treblinka "transit Jews," after the war, allegedly did not dare to say that they had been in Treblinka, because this would have meant that Treblinka was not an "extermination camp" for Jews, cannot convince. If it were so as you are supposing, why did former prisoners of Auschwitz-Birkenau or Lublin-Majdanek, equally called "extermination camps" for Jews, did not keep silent about their presence in these camps?

[Pizzaman]

Precisely, Dr. Neander, and this is why I'd stipulated Treblinka II earlier in this thread.

[Hannover]

Neander said:

Please remember that, at the place called "Treblinka," there were two camps, 2-3 miles apart. One was a small, regular concentration/forced labor camp, which was integrated into the system of prisoner migration between the camps, whereas the other was the very facility Revisionists call a "transit camp."

AFAIK all those listed by Mr. Hannover had been in the first mentioned camp. Their transfer to another place does not say anything about the other, the "transit camp," through which about 900,000 people must have passed, whose traces, however, miraculously vanished. They are the problem, and Revisionists should be able to give a convincing explanation - not speculations - why they did not leave any traces, though they (or at least the vast majority of them) allegedly did not die there.

1. You're grasping at straws, since you do not know that those that I cited had been in Treblinka 1, 2, or both. Please show us that they all came from T1 only. You cannot even proof that this Treblinka 2 was a 'death camp'. Let's be straight forward about it.

2. AND, those that I cited who were transited out of Treblinka are considered survivors of a 'death camp', and they themselves say that they survived the 'Treblinka death camp' complete with vivid and laughable descriptions of the type that you claim occurred in Treblnka 2. Based upon your own logic, and Pizzaman's, they were in fact transited out of Treblinka 2 since they claim, and are touted as 'surviving 'death camp' Treblinka .... while curiously not being put to death, I must add.

Logic indicates that you two are saying the cited Jews are lying since you wish to believe they were in T1 only. According to you two, 'even though you have no proof, these guys all came from T1 rather than T2 because you know, but cannot proof, that the mass gassings, which you cannot prove, all occurred in T2. Your stories make zero sense and are a classic case of garbage in, garbage out.

3 And speaking of miraculous, neither of you can show the alleged mass graves at Treblinka for the 900,000 Jews allegedly gassed there. And I remind you of my post in which the Communists admitted not finding any such mass graves. There was no disapperance of 900,000 thousand Jews, there were multitudes of other labor camps for them to have been transited. Jews ended up where Jews are. They died of the same causes as everyone else and you have no proof to the opposite.
Now, Neander and Pizzaman, do show us these claimed Treblinka mass graves for 900,000 Jews.

- Hannover

[stefanob]

I will have to finish my Treblinka book, before I can further debate the T1-T2 topic.

@ stefanob:
Your explanation that the Treblinka "transit Jews," after the war, allegedly did not dare to say that they had been in Treblinka, because this would have meant that Treblinka was not an "extermination camp" for Jews, cannot convince. If it were so as you are supposing, why did former prisoners of Auschwitz-Birkenau or Lublin-Majdanek, equally called "extermination camps" for Jews, did not keep silent about their presence in these camps?

Yes but those camps were mixed ones: labor-detention-transit and allegedly extermination. One could have been there, come out alive, and still clami the camp to be a death camp. This does not apply to a "pure extremination camp", once can't claim having been there and being still alive without contradicting the orthodox explanation.

[The Warden]

@ The Warden:

Sorry, Sir, you are misquoting me: "They didn't ask "Which camps were you at?""

Actually, sir, you weren't quoted at all. The quotation marks were there to show someone speaking during the interview process.

If you have to give a complete (!) listing of your abodes, and if you had been in camp X, then you have to mention this, otherwise you're giving false information. That this did occur in some instances, I said, too. It is also possible that someone forgot to mention a camp etc. s/he was at. But among 900,000 who made the train ride to Treblinka, there should have been more than a handful to testify that they had been there.

Yet isn't it remarkable that very limited amount was used to convict people with no physical remains of the alleged victims?
I don't know of any court case where that would be considered beyond reasonable doubt. But as Pizzaman eloquently put it (and this is a direct quote) "History isn't a court trial".

How convenient for the ones who have no evidence other than "I said so", or in this case "no more than a handful" said so.

Your comparison with the gas station where the bus makes a short stop is wrong. People sent to transit camps did not stay there for a few hours. They were registered there, underwent selections according to the employment assigned to them, and stayed there for at least 2-3 weeks in "quarantine" to make sure that they were not carriers of infectious diseases. At Auschwitz, transit Jews such as my and Eric Hunt's beloved Irene could have stayed there even for four months.

Although I made no bus comparison, I'd like to ask you something:
While you're trying to argue that people were registered, and stayed for weeks and months at a time, doesn't it seem remarkably inconsistent with the storyline that states they were dropped off, undressed, walked through "the tube", and gassed upon arrival?

BTW, your air travel remark is also not up to date. I yesterday bought a plane ticket for me to Louisville, KY. I had to indicate all stopovers and connections (where, when) and to give my exact address in the U.S. (@ Moderator: please feel free to delete this sentence if you feel it is off topic.)

And if you read back, you'll notice the point wasn't to show they didn't monitor the stops during the flight, but the fact they didn't monitor where you went after you completed the flight. They don't track what hotel you're going to, if you're backpacking another 800 miles in any given direction, renting a car, or any other numerous possibilities once they've completed their sole purpose of getting you where they wanted to complete the contract. Please don't spin, Dr. Neander. This thread is dizzy enough. Much like the prisoners were monitored until Treblinka, they weren't registered if they were sent to gulags, offered in prisoner exchanges, or simply walked right out of the German occupied territories in an effort to emigrate only to be taken in by Soviet forces or actually getting to where they were going, such as Israel or the U.S.. No reason to record you were handed over to Soviets or simply walked away when you're trying to extort Germany.

The homeless are a good analogy here. Ask a person officially where they live in order to collect some sort of benefit check. They'll rely on a previous address in order to get their check. They don't record they are living in the subway or under a bridge. It's the last known place of residence that is recorded and kept on file. Like Treblinka for wandering Jews.

[KostasL]

So how many Jews were in 'Israel' before the war, and how many are there now?

Not sure. The population in 1949 was 1.2 million. The total number of Jews who went to Palestine between 1930 and 1939 is estimated to be less than 20,000. The total number of Jews who emigrated from 1919-1948 was 650,000 but that includes many years before the war. They say 200,000 came during the war itself.

Remember that the 1949 population figure includes 10% Arabs and also includes several hundred thousand Jews who were deported or fled from areas that had never fallen under German control (Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon).

Yes, i know ! Demographics can be very complex if they are a bit inconvenient...

Jewish population in Palestine in 1918, was 60,000, today it is 6,000,000...the whole fucking holocaust !!!

[Dolma]

Hannover:

I produced name after name of those who transited through Treblinka, with sources given.

Wasn't there a man called Eric Hunt who found even more? Does anyone here have the links to that information?

And Norman Finklestien say's his mother survived the Warsaw ghetto and was transited to Majdanek.

Way back in the year 2000, I purchased a book, written by Norman G. Finkelstein, entitled The Holocaust Industry. Finkelstein mentioned on page 85 that his mother was “A survivor of the Warsaw Ghetto, Majdanek concentration camp and slave labor camps at Czestochowa and Skarszysko-Kamiena.” I was puzzled by this because I had visited Warsaw in October 1998 and learned that the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto had been transported to Treblinka.

What was so special about Finkelstein’s mother that she was sent to Majdanek, instead of Treblinka? Did she first go to Treblinka and was then transferred to Majdanek, or was she sent on a special train that went toward Treblinka, and then turned south at the junction near Treblinka, and continued on to Majdanek? Finkelstein didn’t explain why she managed to survive when all the other Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto, except his parents, were killed at Treblinka.

http://furtherglory.wordpress.com/tag/n ... nkelstein/

Could a Jew have been transited to Majdanek from Warsaw without going through the Treblinka rail station?

Also, Samuel Willenberg claims that all Jews from Czestochowa were sent to Treblinka and murdered. Why on earth would the Germans do such a thing only to turn around and set up a slave labor camp in Czestochowa and fill it up with Jews?