Chelmno book released

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Chelmno book released

Postby Mkk » 7 years 11 months ago (Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:15 am)

After a bit of a delay, Mattogno's Chelmno book has been released!
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The world’s premier revisionist scholar, Carlo Mattogno, focuses his microscope on Chelmno, the infamous German-run “death camp” located in Poland. It was here that huge masses of Jewish prisoners were rounded up and mercilessly gassed or shot (claims vary from 10,000 to 1.3 million victims). Or so say the court historians, most of whomhave never set foot near the remains of the camp. Mattogno, however, has examined reams of wartime documents and conducted on-site investigations at the Chelmno camp and around the neighboring countryside. The resulting book challenges the conventional wisdom of what went on inside Chelmno. Mattogno covers the subject from every angle, undermining the orthodox claims about the camp with an overwhelmingly effective body of evidence. Eyewitness statements, gas wagons as extermination weapons, forensics reports, coroners’ reports, archeological excavations, the crematoria, building plans, official U.S. reports, German documents, evacuation efforts—all come under Mattogno’s scrutiny. Here are the uncensored facts about Chelmno, not the propaganda

http://holocausthandbooks.com/23/index.html
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

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Re: Chelmno book released

Postby Mkk » 7 years 11 months ago (Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:20 am)

I quote the conclusion of the book:
All that is left is to summarize the conclusions arising from this
study.
1) The establishment of Chelmno camp fits perfectly into the National Socialist policy of deporting the Jews to the east.
2) No documentary or material trace exists for the use of “gas vans”
in this camp. The truck photographed by the Commission of Inquiry into the German crimes in Poland in the courtyard of the Ostrowski factory was used to disinfest clothing or to carry passengers.
3) There is no evidence for the first alleged systematic extermination
of Jews in the Warthegau, and no one can specify when or how it was
perpetrated.
4) The first witness account about the alleged extermination at
Chelmno, the “Szlamek Report,” is completely unreliable. Similarly unreliable and even contradictory are the witnesses of the postwar era.
5) Only one cremation oven has been confirmed archeologically in
the Chelmno camp. It would have taken almost nine years to cremate all
the bodies of the alleged victims of homicidal gassings in that oven.
There are no material traces of the alleged mass cremation.
6) Rudolf Höss’s visit to the “field ovens Aktion Reinhardt” had
nothing to do with Chelmno.
7) The camp’s claimed death toll number is not based on any documentation. It was set to 1,300,000 by the Commission of Inquiry into
the German Crimes in Poland, but later reduced to 340,000 by Judge
Bednarz. Polish historiography today assumes a figure of about 152,000
victims, which in practice coincides with the number of Jews who, according to the Korherr Report, were led “through the camps of the
Warthegau… 145,301,” plus some 7,000 additional victims for the
camp’s claimed second extermination phase in 1944.
8 ) The transports of Jews sent to the Lódz ghetto included a high
percentage of people unable to work (elderly and children), only some
of whom were evacuated to make room for Jews fit for work.
9) The Chelmno camp ceased operations in April 1943, which would
be inexplicable if it really had been an extermination camp for the Jews
in the Warthegau, especially for the Jews of the Lódz ghetto. This is all
the more inexplicable because on 1 March 1944 4,495 children under 8
years of age and 392 elderly persons aged over 70 years were still alive
in the ghetto.
10) Even more inexplicable, from the perspective of orthodox Holocaust historiography, is the reopening of the camp in April 1944. The
claim that it had to exterminate the Jews of the Lódz ghetto has no documentary support, and there is no evidence that the 10 Jewish transports
evacuated from the ghetto “for labor” between June and July 1944 went
to, or were gassed at, Chelmno. In fact, the analysis of name lists of the
deportations permits us to exclude this possibility.
11) No documentary evidence exists for the alleged extermination at
Chelmno of gypsies from the Lódz ghetto.
12) No documentary evidence exists either for the alleged extermination at Chelmno of the children of Lidice.
13) The ultimate destiny of the Jews who passed through the
Chelmno camp was not the alleged “gas vans,” but the region of Pinsk,
in particular the area of the Pripyat Marshes, and partly also the Baltic
countries.


Once again Mattogno has demolished the propaganda surrounding this camp, just like all the other camps he has written books on. He has now completed a study on all the alleged extermination camps, including several studies on Auschwitz. His next work to be released is "The crematoria of Auschwitz-Birkanau", which will be a 800 page (500 pag text, 300 page photos and documents) expanded edition of his previous article on cremations. His study on healthcare in Auschwitz, and another study, something like a second volume of "Special Treatment in Auschwitz" is also in preparation.
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

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Re: Chelmno book released

Postby Hannover » 7 years 11 months ago (Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:47 am)

Yet another nail in the 'holocaust' coffin. Thanks Mkk. I encourage everyone to watch the Jewish supremacist 'holocaust' Industry try to work their way out of this one.

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Re: Chelmno book released

Postby Werd » 7 years 11 months ago (Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:28 pm)

Seems Roberto Muehlenkamp isn't impressed. Here is one quote from his latest blog entry.

What is worse than these and other ongoing blunders (or falsehoods), as concerns Mattogno's scholarship, is that Mattogno continues peddling his claim that "the alleged activity of Blobel at Chełmno is not confirmed by any document, but only by a single testimony, that of Rudolf Höss, the commandant of Auschwitz (confirmed, long after the fact, by one of the architects of the Auschwitz crematoria, Walter Dejaco)" (section 8.2, page 76), conveniently omitting the testimonies of Fritz Ismer and Julius Bauer, which are mentioned in Hoffmann's book and in my blog Mattogno on Chełmno Cremation (Part 1).


Here is what Ismer said, as quoted by Roberto.

Chełmno became Blobel’s experimentation site for devices and methods of which those considered efficient were later applied at other extermination camps and at the massacre sites of mobile killing units in the occupied Soviet territories. He tried fire bombs, but these caused large fires in the surrounding woods[12]. According to Höß he also tried blowing up the bodies, with unsatisfactory results. [13] Another of Blobel’s creations was presented to a number of high-ranking SS-officers (SS–Obersturmbannführer Höß, SS-Untersturmführer Hößler and SS-Untersturmführer Dejaco) during a visit to Chełmno on 16.09.1942, mentioned by Höß[14] and in a report prepared by Dejaco on 17.09.1942. [15] At the trial against Dejaco and Ertl in Vienna in 1972, Dejaco described the device as having had the aspect of a round coal furnace (Kohlenmeiler) and a diameter of 4 to 6 meters, in which the corpses had been burned alternated with layers of wood. Blobel is supposed to have stated that the installation was not suitable for rapid corpse cremation because combustion was slow, but that the principle of alternating corpses and wood should be maintained.[16] Yet another Blobel contraption was described by SS-man Fritz Ismer, a member of the Chełmno staff. When working on the removal of the mass graves at Chełmno, this witness had watched an experiment in which Blobel had attempted to set corpses in a mass grave on fire with a flamethrower-like apparatus that the witness described as having the aspect of an enlarged blow torch. The flame had not been very strong, and the witness concluded that the experiment must have failed. He had heard of no further experiments by Blobel. However, he added, "We in time developed a certain technique in burning corpses on the grids<" ("Wir entwickelten aber im Laufe der Zeit eine gewisse Technik bei der Leichenverbrennung auf den Rosten).[17]


Here are the footnotes.

[12] Yitzhak Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, Indiana University Press, Bloomington and Indianapolis 1987 (hereinafter "Arad, Reinhard"), p. 171; see also the blog "The Germans wouldn’t have done it that way".
[13]Höß, Endlösung, Kommandant in Auschwitz p. 244.
[14] As above.
[15] Reisebericht über die Dienstfahrt nach Litzmannstadt, Nuremberg Document NO-4467.
[16] Jean-Claude Pressac, Os Crematórios de Auschwitz. A Maquinaria do Assassínio em Massa (hereinafter "Pressac, Crematórios"). Translated by António Moreira, 1993 Editorial Notícias, Lisbon, p. 100.
[17] Hoffmann, Aktion 1005, p. 81 (interrogation of Fritz Ismer on 1 August 1961, criminal case 141 Js 204/60 Vol. 4, fl. 1419ff.).

So how did Arad know about what was going on in Clemno with faulty experiments setting fire to woods? Probably based on some trial testimony. Googlebooks didn't have page 171 of Arad's book available for preview. However, anytime someone says, ACCORDING TO HOESS, I have to be wary because we all know Hoess was tortured into signing his confession and that a lot of other nazis were tortured and threatened. The 13th and 14th footnotes come from Hoess so we can ignore that. 16th footnote comes from Pressac. As for Ismer himself, I don't think anyone knows what happened to him in terms of what year he died or what he was even sentenced to. I can't find anything. But just because Hoess was tortured as were other nazis, we shouldn't just throw out confessions as soon as exterminationists would accept them. Just sit on the fence and keep digging on a particular affidavit. We know Hoess is compromised because we have it on record that his torture was admitted. So revisionists win on that front. Even Bernard Clarke admitted it in his book. So my question is, is there anything comparable to that with regards to Ismer?

Also, Roberto takes issue with Mattogno allegedly inflating the average weight of the jewish camp inmate in order to justify a necessity for a large quantity of wood to burn the bodies which no one saw. Roberto says no one saw this much wood, because it wasn't needed.

As concerns cremation logistics, Mattogno had in the Italian version (section 9.2, pp. 114-15) calculated that the burning of 145,000 corpses would have required 21,750 tons of wood, assuming 150 kg of wood for a corpse with an average weight of 45 kg at the time of cremation (down from an assumed average life weight of 60 kg, as a part of the corpses had lain in mass graves some months before being burned).

My calculations, based on a life weight assumption closer to the reality of starving Polish ghettos than Mattogno’s flagrantly unrealistic 60 kg, on the weight loss due to dehydration of the corpses that had been buried prior to cremation, and on the wood-to-carcass weight ratios achieved in the animal carcass burning experiments by Dr. Lothes and Dr. Profé in the early 19th Century (which Mattogno ignored and continues ignoring in this context, even though it was his mention of these experiments in Combustion Experiments with Flesh and Animal Fat that brought them to my attention), point to a requirement of ca. 2,451 metric tons of dry wood or 4,657 tons of fresh wood for burning the corpses of the about 150,000 people killed in the first phase of extermination operations at Chełmno, between December 1941 and March 1943 (see the blog Mattogno on Chełmno Cremation (Part 2), figures in tables 2.11 and 2.12).

In the English version of his Chełmno book (section 9.2, p. 89), Mattogno further inflates his already overblown calculations of wood requirements by assuming, pursuant to considerations in the Sobibor book by Mattogno, Graf and Kues, that the corpses weighed 60 kg on average at the time they were cremated and that the wood used was fresh wood with a calorific value of only 2,000 kcal/kg. He thus arrives at a wood requirement of 53,000 metric tons for the cremation of 152,000 corpses (350 kg per corpse), more than ten times the amount I calculated for 150,000 corpses assuming the use of fresh wood. Instead of becoming more realistic, Mattogno’s figures have become even more unreasonable than they were before.

Even if Mattogno is engaging in gymnastics, which he may be, what about Roberto? From Thomas Dalton.

"Muehlenkamp also accepts the average weight of Provan's group - 77 pounds - as representative of the mass of Jews. In other words, miniature people.

In terms of volume density, Provan claims to have packed eight people into 0.42 cubic meters, equivalent to a density of 19 per cubic meter. Muehlenkamp generously uses only 15 per cubic meter in his subsequent calculations. The reader is invited to build a one cubic meter box out of wood, find 15 of the skinniest people around, even 15 children, and try to fit them all in.

Since the Jews were miniature people, the bloggers claim, their bodies decayed more quickly, leaving less mass to be burned away to nothing. In order to estimate wood and ash conditions we need an idea of how much wood it takes to cremate a given unit of organic flesh; in other words, what is the nominally required 'wood to flesh' ratio? Revisionst estimates run from 3.5 : 1 up to 11:1. So the complete burning, down to ash, of a 45 kg corpse would take between 158 and 495 kg of wood.

Muehlenkamp thinks it much easier to burn rotting flesh. After running through some analytical gyrations he decides the range is only between 1:1 and 2:1 (We can assume the mid range value of 1.5:1). For death camp like conditions this is highly unlikely. To be taken seriously, the bloggers would have to conduct careful experiments under scientific conditions to prove this claim.

MUehlenkamp then argues that the corpses decayed down to 25kg each, in contrast to the revisionist 45kg. Based on his 1.5:1 ratio, it only takes him 38kg of wood to burn a typical body - merely one quarter of the minimum revisionist requirement. Consequently, only one quarter of the ash is produced (see Muehlenkamp 2006b). This, then, is the essence of the traditionalist reply, such as it is: tiny, easily burned bodies. At best this only alleviates the problems, it doesn't eliminate them.

However, Muehlenkamp claims to have found a scientific report that justifies his lower ratios. And Mattogno still is ignoring this.
holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2009/12/animal-carcass-burning-experiments-by.html
As far as I know, I have heard of nothing from Thomas Dalton on this report. Has any revisionist addressed these? If so, can someone give me a link. If not, then how come?

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Re: Chelmno book released

Postby Mkk » 7 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:24 am)

As for Roberto's stuff on cremations, I cannot comment on the study he shows, but I can say M/G/K have dealt with decomposed/emaciated corpses in their Sobibor book. Decomposition or emaciation doesn't positively affect cremation; infact, in some cases the relative amount of fuel used is more.

Has Roberto said anything on the Archaeological findings that there were only one crematoria in Chelmno, which, according to Mattogno's calculations could have cremated a maximum of 45 corpses in 24 hours. 45 times 365 equals 11925 per year, and about 12 years to cremate all the corpses, ofcourse assuming the use of the crematoria all the way through that 12 years! It is alleged two ovens were used, which (going by the witness statements, which archaeological research have shown to be unfounded) could have cremated 180 corpses in 24 hours. That is 64080 corpses per year, or about 2.5 years to cremate all the corpses, again assuming around the clock operation. The cremation was supposedly ordered in June 1942, and a crematoria set up sometime in spring or summer, which continued on until April 1943. So, that gives us slightly less than a year, so I will say about 60,000 corpses in this time, at full capacity ofcourse. What happened to the other 90,000 or so, even if we believe the witness statements?
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Re: Chelmno book released

Postby Toshiro » 7 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:19 am)

The Lothes and Profé animal cremation report is interesting, but careful planning has to be done in order to cremate efficiently. The watery entrails of the animal are removed, leaving the animal practically hollow inside. The guts are then placed next to the carcass so fire can reach and burn them faster. The animals are also hairy which acts as a nice accelerant. Their method of cremation also only applies to single cremations, that is to say, of a single animal carcass. The reason for that is the position of the carcass which must be placed in a specific way on the two iron carriers below, i.e. their four feet dangling openly in the pit. The carcasses also needed to be covered with tar.

Such cremation is not possible or is very inefficient with throwing/stacking bodies on each other.

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Re: Chelmno book released

Postby Hannover » 7 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:08 pm)

The typically duplicitous Muehlenkamp, who has been completely discredited in debates at this forum, puts credence in Blobel. Muehlenkamp tries this since he promotes the impossible and will try whatever it he can to pull the wool over the eyes of the naive. Truth is irrevevant for Roberto Muehlenkamp.

Blobel's 'testimony' lacks any merit whatsoever.

Blobel allegedly stated that at Babi Yar the cremation ovens were made from Jewish tombstones taken from a Jewish cemetery. Indeed, this IS marketed by the profit oriented Jewish supremacists of the 'holocaust' Industry. Utterly laughable and presents a very basic problem for the liars.The matter is debunked by aerial photography at the exact time of the alleged process, and that's right, nothing of the sort is happening in the photography.

Blobel is claimed to have been in charge of eliminating the alleged mass graves. Meaning, the Jewish supremacists are grasping for an excuse as to why they cannot show us a single mass grave as alleged, not one. But Blobel stated that due to the advancing Red Army, a lot of the alleged these mass graves went untouched. Oops! So, using basic logic, these graves should be available for excavation and viewing. They are not and cannot be shown, they do not exist and never did.

For amateurs like Muehlenkamp to offer up Blobel as credible is to embrace information which goes against the standard storyline. Blobel was saying what he thought was necessary to save his skin, simple as that. But in the process dirtied the water for the purveyors of the 'holocaust' nonsense, as did Hoess.

Good job Muehlenkamp, you just shot yourself in the foot again.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Chelmno book released

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:58 pm)

He tried fire bombs, but these caused large fires in the surrounding woods[12]. According to Höß he also tried blowing up the bodies, with unsatisfactory results.

The Blobel story reads like a bad joke. Either he was a highly-skilled practical technician who made millions of bodies disappear without trace, or he was an oaf who thought you could dispose of bodies by blowing them up and was so incompetent that he tried to burn bodies with fire bombs and set fire to whole bleeding forest! One or the other. You can't have both.

You couldn't make it up! Could you? ;)

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Re: Chelmno book released

Postby Blogbuster » 7 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:05 pm)

Hannover wrote:The typically duplicitous Muehlenkamp, who has been completely discredited in debates at this forum, puts credence in Blobel. Muehlenkamp tries this since he promotes the impossible and will try whatever it he can to pull the wool over the eyes of the naive. Truth is irrevevant for Roberto Muehlenkamp.

Blobel's 'testimony' lacks any merit whatsoever.

Blobel allegedly stated that at Babi Yar the cremation ovens were made from Jewish tombstones taken from a Jewish cemetery. Indeed, this IS marketed by the profit oriented Jewish supremacists of the 'holocaust' Industry. Utterly laughable and presents a very basic problem for the liars.The matter is debunked by aerial photography at the exact time of the alleged process, and that's right, nothing of the sort is happening in the photography.

Blobel is claimed to have been in charge of eliminating the alleged mass graves. Meaning, the Jewish supremacists are grasping for an excuse as to why they cannot show us a single mass grave as alleged, not one. But Blobel stated that due to the advancing Red Army, a lot of the alleged these mass graves went untouched. Oops! So, using basic logic, these graves should be available for excavation and viewing. They are not and cannot be shown, they do not exist and never did.

For amateurs like Muehlenkamp to offer up Blobel as credible is to embrace information which goes against the standard storyline. Blobel was saying what he thought was necessary to save his skin, simple as that. But in the process dirtied the water for the purveyors of the 'holocaust' nonsense, as did Hoess.

Good job Muehlenkamp, you just shot yourself in the foot again.

- Hannover



Wow! You guys are being hard on Roberto Muehlenkamp :D after all he publicly admits to suffering from severe bi polar manic depression.
(See this link http://hateblogwatch.yuku.com/topic/413 ... u-KQtRSR8E)

Perhaps the anti-depressant drugs he takes regularly cloud his research capabilities?

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Re: Chelmno book released

Postby Cloud » 7 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:15 pm)

Seems Roberto Muehlenkamp isn't impressed

Why should revisionists care if this person isn't? Doesn't seem like anyone particularly important in the grand scheme of things.

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Re: Chelmno book released

Postby Werd » 7 years 11 months ago (Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:08 am)

It's not about what someone thinks, but why they think/say it. Roberto has counterarguments and we can't ignore them just because we want to. He has another response.

He seems to not want to let go of Hoess' torture. Well he does, but with a qualifier. He says, Hoess was tortured by the British yes. But after that, he made subsequent statements while not under the threat of torture and those are okay. My beef is, if those statements fall in line with the nonsense that he parroted when he was tortured and under threat, such as that confession he signed to killing more in Auschwitz than is now admitted, then I have to wonder if he really believed he was free from the threat of torture. The Germans lost the war. What logical right did he have to think he couldn't be 'leaned on' if needed? Roberto does not explain this.

He also says this.

Werd
Even if Mattogno is engaging in gymnastics, which he may be, what about Roberto?


I like the "maybe" regarding the absurd claim that Jewish deportees from the Łódź ghetto and other Polish ghettos (many of whom were children, all of whom were malnourished, and many of whom had furthermore lain in mass graves for months before being cremated) weighed 60 kg on average at the time of cremation. Mattogno is really putting it on thick here.

Isn't this a fair point? What about kids? Were they really 60kg? Although not everyone was a child, some were. He then has this to say.

Instead of repeating Mattogno’s rubbish and making funny calculations on the basis thereof, Mkk should have read my blogs Mattogno on Chełmno Cremation (Part 1) and Mattogno on Chełmno Cremation (Part 2).


Toshiro
The watery entrails of the animal are removed, leaving the animal practically hollow inside. The guts are then placed next to the carcass so fire can reach and burn them faster.


That may be helpful, but is it supposed to be the factor that accounts for Lothes and Profé’s wood-to-carcass weight ratios? I don’t remember them saying so anywhere, but maybe I missed something.

As long as they adjusted the weight of the carcass and lowered it with the stuff they removed. If so, then I think Roberto is right. The wood to weight ratio wouldn't run into any problems.

The corpses at Chełmno and the Aktion Reinhard(t) camps may not have had their entrails removed, but they were mostly dehydrated after long periods of lying in the graves. So at least the dehydrated ones would have burned at least as well as L&P's hollow cows, wouldn’t they?

Hmmmm. Interesting...just like his last comment in his latest blog article. Something to think about. Start reading from the phrase "I'd say that a multitude of carcasses..." What is interesting is that one of the claims from inside Treblinka I think it was, it was in Arad's book, that females that were fatter were placed underneath as kindling because their fat would help the fire keep going as is shown in that one experiment Roberto quotes about corpses burning in cars which you can read about.

Not only does Mattogno seem to be in the crosshairs for ignoring responses from Muehlenkamp, he also appears to have known about a certain witness statement that he ignored because it may have posed a problem for him. At this link, Roberto quotes testimony from a person named Heinrich May who met people that worked at the camp and apparently subtly blabbed about what was being done to the Jews and he had people ask him for immense quantities of wood to burn the bodies.

In early 1940, Heinrich May was transferred to the conquered Polish territories annexed to the German Reich, where he was appointed forest superintendent for the Koło district. Within the scope of his duties he was also responsible for the forests that would later be part of the Chełmno extermination camp.

May became a witness to mass murder at this camp and was deeply shocked by what he saw. In early 1945 May fled to western Germany and wrote a report about what had happened during the Nazi occupation in the Koło district and the Chełmno camp. When the Americans arrived, he handed them this report.


After the long quoted statement, Roberto has these things to say.

So Mattogno has ignored Heinrich May's above-quoted report, which is an important piece of evidence about the mass murder at Chełmno extermination camp. I’d call this another example of Mattogno's sloppiness - or of this dishonesty, considering that Krakowski’s book about Chełmno mentioned at the beginning of this article, which is copiously cited by Mattogno, contains a long excerpt from May’s original account in German on pp. 40-45 and another excerpt on pp. 60-61. Krakowski’s book is not much longer than Mattogno’s (183 vs. 170 pages of main text).


and

A reader called my attention to the fact that Mattogno mentioned the Polish version of Chelmno Witnesses Speak in his book, and indeed one finds the following in the bibliography on page 185:

- Krakowski, Shmuel (a cura di), Mówią świadkowie Chełmna (Parlano i testimoni di Chełmno). Rad Ochrony Pamięci Walk i Męczeństwa,Muzeum Okręgowe w Koninie. Konin- Łódź, 1996.

Unless May's account wasn't included in that earlier collection, this doesn't make Mattogno's omission of this important testimony look better, of course. On the contrary.


So Roberto is saying Mattogno is aware of Heinrich May but chooses not to cite him or attempt to refute or deal with the long statement of his. Roberto is saying Mattogno is a propagandist that is ignoring the uncomfortable.

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Re: Chelmno book released

Postby Mkk » 7 years 11 months ago (Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:01 am)

Isn't this a fair point? What about kids? Were they really 60kg? Although not everyone was a child, some were. He then has this to say.

Mattogno has covered this in his Sobibor book. The calculation of 60kg also takes into account children. Mr. Muehlenkamp says these deprotees came from a "starving Polish ghetto". Ofcourse I don't really doubt this, but do you have any specific info on the conditions in that ghetto? In any case, if the deportees really were staved , surely they would have less fat etc. which would negatively affect cremation?

The corpses at Chełmno and the Aktion Reinhard(t) camps may not have had their entrails removed, but they were mostly dehydrated after long periods of lying in the graves. So at least the dehydrated ones would have burned at least as well as L&P's hollow cows, wouldn’t they?

As I pointed out above, is is ofcourse true corpses lose some of their water content over time, but they also lose some of that fat content, which would be negative. So, even in the most favorable conditions, the cremation would not be changed by that much.

As for the Heinrich May statement, what is it? Post it here and let us dissect it.
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Re: Chelmno book released

Postby Hannover » 7 years 11 months ago (Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:36 pm)

Muehlenkamp said:
What is worse than these and other ongoing blunders (or falsehoods), as concerns Mattogno's scholarship, is that Mattogno continues peddling his claim that "the alleged activity of Blobel at Chełmno is not confirmed by any document, but only by a single testimony, that of Rudolf Höss, the commandant of Auschwitz (confirmed, long after the fact, by one of the architects of the Auschwitz crematoria, Walter Dejaco)" (section 8.2, page 76), conveniently omitting the testimonies of Fritz Ismer and Julius Bauer, which are mentioned in Hoffmann's book and in my blog Mattogno on Chełmno Cremation (Part 1).

Sorry, a long rebutal to Muehlenkamp's classic use of 'garbage in, garbage out' arguments.

Blobel's statements have already been shown to be self defeating for the likes of the irrational Muehlenkamp.

We've shown that Hoess's tortured and coerced 'testimony' is utterly ridiculous as well as the spins made in laughable attempts to buttress this 'testimony':
see:
The Confessions of Rudolf Hoess
viewtopic.php?t=2656
excerpt:
Within a few weeks, Höss was transferred to Poland, where he was extensively interrogated prior to hearings in Krakow in December, 1946. A number of affidavits were prepared in November, and these, stitched together with the memoirs he penciled in early 1947, have frequently been issued as his "Autobiography." A feature of one of these affidavits, "The Final Solution of the Jewish Question" contains elements that differ from the previous affidavits but retains most of the same errors. The main feature of this affidavit is that Höss distanced himself from the figure of 2.5-3 million victims, which he blamed on Eichmann and British torture, while repeating the distribution by nationality of about one million Jewish arrivals.

It is frequently stated that the "Autobiography" was composed in its entirety after Höss was sentenced to death, so that he would have had no reason to lie or shade the truth. This does not appear to be accurate. Whatever the determination of the Krakow hearings, Höss was not put on trial until March 11 of 1947, the trial lasting for almost three weeks. At his trial, Höss admitted to all charges and directed all of his questions to witnesses with a view to bringing down the total number of victims, cited in the indictment as "about 300,000 camp registered inmates", "about 4,000,000 people mainly Jews brought to the camp from different European countries to be killed upon their arrival" and twelve thousand Soviet POW's. On the other hand, Höss did contradict his November, 1946 affidavit in court by claiming that the total killed was 2.5 million. It appears that Höss' questioning had some effect: in its verdict, the court determined that "an undetermined number of people, at least 2,500,000, mainly Jews" were murdered.

Höss was sentenced to death on April 2, 1947, by the Supreme National Tribunal of Poland, just two weeks before he was hanged, and two months after his memoirs had been completed. The memoirs themselves are a model of incoherence and contradiction, containing a number of demonstrable untruths, as for example the reference to the secret files recording the "several millions" of Germans who were killed in the Anglo-American bombing campaign. Nevertheless the memoirs, or more precisely the November affidavit on the "Final Solution" attached to them to form the "Autobiography", remain the most frequently cited source for the reality of the gassing claim, although what actually happens is that the mere existence of these writings is used to give retroactive authority to the problematic April 5, 1946 affidavit, which, as we have seen, leads back to the March 16, 1946 affidavit, which contained numerous false statements extracted under torture.

Hoess's repeated torture is compounded by what he said in those absurd "confessions".
see:
'Auschwitz Commandant Hoess 'confessions' debunked in review'
viewtopic.php?t=2429
also see:
'getting the desired 'confession'....via torture'
viewtopic.php?t=1121
and:
'Do we have evidence of torture to extract confessions?'
viewtopic.php?t=974

We have seen that even a 'holocaust historian' (a complete oxymoron if there ever was one) dispenses with Hoess:
Mark Roseman:
"Both Rudolf Hoess's and Eichmann's testimonies lack credibility."

Even arch anti-Revisionist & Zionist racist, Deborah Lipstadt, has admitted that the Hoess confessions are unreliable. As has 'holocaust historian' Christopher Browning. Using Muehlenkamp's logic, or lack of, these two are 'holocaust deniers'. Muehlenkamp has fallen victim to the common trait of liars not being able to keep their stories straight.

As for Dejaco, who Muehlenkamp finds comfort in, here's some tidbits:

There's the claim that Walter Dejaco (and Fritz Karl Ertl) had designed the laughable Auschwitz/Birkenau 'gas chambers'. Muehlenkamp preditably fails to include the fact that Both Dejaco and Ertl were put on trial in 1972 in Vienna for the murder of three million Jews in crematorium II and crematorium III, but were acquitted because the court could not establish any connection between the two and the supposed mass murder in the "gas chambers." An expert witness testified that the rooms that they had designed could not be used as gas chambers. Both Dejaco and Ertl said they knew absolutely nothing about 'homicidal gas chambers' and were released from custody on March 11th, 1972.

But to unprincipled folks like Roberto Muehlenkamp; Blobel, Hoess, and Dejaco are proof of his beloved 'holocaust'.

This is too easy.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Toshiro
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Re: Chelmno book released

Postby Toshiro » 7 years 11 months ago (Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:56 am)

That may be helpful, but is it supposed to be the factor that accounts for Lothes and Profé’s wood-to-carcass weight ratios? I don’t remember them saying so anywhere, but maybe I missed something.

Removed entrails burn faster because the water vaporizes into the air, drying the meat in the process, making the meat more likely to burn, whereas if they are in their natural place, they get cooked inside until the fire burns through the tissue and reaches the entrails. Therefore a whole cow will need more time and fuel to be cremated than if you were to remove its entrails and place them directly onto the fire. Likewise a whole chicken will need more time and fuel to be cremated than if you were to cut the chicken into slices.

The corpses at Chełmno and the Aktion Reinhard(t) camps may not have had their entrails removed, but they were mostly dehydrated after long periods of lying in the graves. So at least the dehydrated ones would have burned at least as well as L&P's hollow cows, wouldn’t they?

Not really, because a freshly dead (heh) cow has a lot of fat on it compared to people (dead or alive), which kindles the fire. Decomposed corpses have lost a lot of their fat and would therefore not burn as likely. We aren't talking about dried up mummy corpses that would burn up in an instant, are we now, Roberto? Perhaps the Nazis stored fat corpses not in mass graves, but in a special shack labelled "Brennstoff," along with all the wood for such occasions?

The source of Roberto's report is none other than Mattogno, who quoted the Lothes and Profé report out of an article by Wilhelm Heepke. This is what Mattogno stated:

It can be seen from the experiments described by Heepke that the ratio of fuel to flesh is always less than one; in other words, the combustion of one kilogram of flesh requires less than one kilogram of fuel - more precisely, between 0.39 and 0.80 kilograms of wood. We have to state, though, that the aim of the experiments was only to render hygienically harmless the carcasses of animals that had died from infectious diseases; for this, a more or less complete carbonization was all that was required. That the result was not an incineration, i.e., a complete reduction of the carcass to ash, can be deduced from the fact that Heepke published a table reflecting the practical results of animal incinerators built by the H. Kori company of Berlin (see document 4). The results show that the largest type of equipment of this kind, oven 4b, was able to incinerate 900 kg of flesh in 12 1/2 hours [should be 13 1/2] using 300 kg of hard coal. This fuel has a heating value 2.5 times that of ordinary wood; hence, such an oven would have required as much or even more wood than a burning pit - which is obviously impossible.

Emphasis mine. Here is the document:
Image

Roberto states that:
open-air pits may have a better draft than the animal incinerators operating at the time of Heepke’s studies, which may have accounted for similar or lower fuel consumption in the former, even though Mattogno considers this "obviously impossible".

Really now, someone went through all the trouble of designing an animal incinerator which turned out to be less efficient than an open-air cremation? I hope the person was fired for his incompetency.

And:
Yet another reason is that the open-air burning experiments described by Heepke made use not only of wood, but also of highly flammable substances like straw, tar and resin, the calorific contributions of which must be added to that of the wood for a proper comparison.

He also clings on the usage of "vollständige Verbrennung" by Lothes and Profé as if it means complete reduction to ashes. The pair never mentioned the weight of the residues in their report, unfortunately, but their goal was, as Mattogno stated: "render hygienically harmless the carcasses of animals that had died from infectious diseases; for this, a more or less complete carbonization was all that was required."

Now, regarding the above quote by Roberto, experiment IV didn't use any tar, but wood alone (and straw). Roberto makes a big deal about the little straw that was added (the pair never mention the weight of the straw), as if that made any impact on the cremation other than to help the wood kindle at the beginning.

Here's Roberto's translation:
IV. A horse carcass placed in the manner described, which besides viscera had a weight of about 16 cwt, was burned on 13 August with wood alone, for the ignition of which very low amounts of straw were used. For complete combustion only 6.5 cwt of wood were required. The burning of the very massive and fatty carcass plus viscera was completed after 10 hours.

The German words used here are "vollständige Verbrennung." So, tell us Roberto, did experiment IV come to a complete incineration, i.e., reduced the whole carcass of 800 kg to ash on mere 325 kg of wood alone, in just 10 hours, whereas the professional animal incinerator used 13 and a half hours for a 900 kg carcass using 300 kg of coal, which has a heating value 2,5 times that of wood?

Roberto also relies on an Indian "Mokshda Green Cremation System," where its inventor claims it is "theoretically possible" to cremate the average body with just 22 kilograms of wood. Note the "theoretically possible," as its author couldn't successfully cremate a body with mere 22 kilograms of wood. Gee, I wonder why, Roberto. Is it, perhaps, because it is not physically possible? Not that you care about the laws of physics... If you check their website, it states:
Only about 150 kg of wood is sufficient per cremation as compared to an average 400 kg in the conventional process.


Also, how much liquid fuel (tar, petroleum, diesel, benzin, etc.) would the Nazis have to spend for a cremation? Let's say a batch of decomposed Jews got cremated. Maybe around 30. The average weight of a corpse would be what, you say 25 kg, so let's go with that. That's a total of 750 kg, the weight of a cow, perhaps. Lothes and Profé used around 15 litres of tar, so let's go with that. 10,000 Jews would require 5,000 litres of fuel, 100,000 would require 50,000 litres. Seems like a lot of fuel the Nazis wasted.

Werd
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Re: Chelmno book released

Postby Werd » 7 years 11 months ago (Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:38 pm)

And furthermore how were the nazis supposed to transport all this fuel when their railroads were blown apart by the allied air forces as David Irving exposed? If they had a war to fight on at least two fronts, which included a soviet menace, why indeed would they waste all of that fuel? Given what I just said about Irving, could the nazis really have fought the war that long if they were wasting the finite amount of gasoline they had on trying to burn all those Jewish corpses?

Good post Toshiro. :cheers:


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