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Spartakus
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My First Post

Postby Spartakus » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:26 pm)

This is my very first post and I would like to say that I have been interested in Holocaust Revisionism since I purchased the pamphlet "Did Six Million Really Die?" in 1975 and Butz's "Hoax of the Twentieth Century" as well as Rassinier's "Drama of the European Jews" in 1976. I suppose I have had a lot of time to think about things and have drawn the following conclusions:

a) The extent of the "Holocaust" is definitely exaggerated. The National Socialist Regime did not pursue a policy of assembly-line extermination by means of gas, shooting, electrocuting etc.
b) The National Socialist Regime did pursue of policy of state sponsored discrimination, harassment and economic banditry against the Jewish people prior to the start of WW2
c) The National Socialist Regime implemented, during the war, a policy of forced deportation of Jews from their homes in order to imprison them in concentration camps until the war's victorious conclusion
d) This policy resulted in a significant number of dead through disease, starvation, mistreatment and forced labor
e) Whether the number of dead is six million, six hundred thousand or something else, the National Socialist Regime bears the ultimate responsiblity
f) Jews that survived frequently were separated from loved ones as families scattered to seek refuge from persecution and the devastation of war. Many Jews fled to Palestine or to the United States. Others, less fortunate, found themselves in the Soviet Union and disappeared without a trace.
g) Jewish desire for revenge at the end of WW2 is understandable. Revenge is, sadly, a normal desire for human beings. Hitler himself thirsted for revenge all his life against whomever he thought wronged him or his country.
h) The persecutions suffered by the Jews grew into something larger than life - a "Holocaust" - as a catalyst binding the Jewish people together in their struggle to be free of persecution and to live finally in a state of their own
i) It was inevitable that some or even many would use this idea of a "Holocaust" for selfish political and economic ends, ends which have caused untold suffering to both Jews and non-Jews up to this very day

Anyway, that will be my take in this forum - an understanding of the facts, sympathy for both sides and a desire to let the truth be heard.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:11 pm)

Spartakus:

Welcome to The Revisionist Forum, your views are appreciated.

I realize that this is your 'first post' and you are in essence introducing yourself, great...hello.

In the future let's remember our guidelines and keep posts centered on one main, specific point; otherwise we end up with convoluted threads that are difficult for our readers to follow.

Thanks, Moderator
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Postby Goethe » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:51 pm)

It would seem to me that the placement of people in concentration camps was normal for the times. USSR gulags held millions, Japanese-Americans were seized and placed in camps in the US with much loss of economic assets, etc.

Soviet starvation of the Ukraine, Japanese cruelty in POW camps, Allied cruelty in POW camps, illegal genocidal attacks upon German civilians by the Allies; mass rapes, murder, and torture by the USSR, etc. all indicate a period in history where persecution and cruelty was the norm. In fact, the Jews as a group suffered much less than others. In fact, Allied illegal bombing prevented a lot of medicines and food supplies from reaching the German labor camps.

The Germans bear no more responsibility than anyone else. In fact, they were the least of the offenders.

And why is it that Jews are never guilty of anything?

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Re: My First Post

Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:27 pm)

When Mr. Spartakus writes "The National Socialist Regime implemented, during the war, a policy of forced deportation of Jews from their homes in order to imprison them in concentration camps until the war's victorious conclusion", he is, presumably, aware that the majority of deported Jews were not inducted into the concentration camp system. What has the last 25 years study taught him about their fate?

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:59 pm)

Goethe wrote: Soviet starvation of the Ukraine


'Ukraine' rather than 'the Ukraine' is the preferred usage. The idea being that it's a country and not a region. Even if Mr. Stalin thought differently.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:43 pm)

Jews were mostly gathered in ghettos and work camps, in concentration camps only when the work camp was associated with a concentration camp.

But I think that this changed towards the end of the war, end of 1944 and 1945, when Jews were transferred from the east to camps like Buchenwald, Sachsenhausen, Dachau etc.

fge

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Postby Spartakus » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:06 pm)

Ghetto, work camp, concentration camp.............If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, if it quacks...............................guess what??

Innocent people were still ostracized, forced to wear yellow stars, uprooted from their homes, shipped off in cattlecars to places of detention........I mean, really. Whether Stalin did something similar, or Roosevelt was a war criminal or Bomber Harris should have been in strung up along the Goering - I'm simply saying that the National Socialist Regime must bear the responsibility for instituting a program of state sponsored discrimination and persecution. Bomber Harris must bear the responsibility for the thousands of civilians he massacred, Stalin for his tens of millions........The Third Reich was guilty along with all the rest. Historical revisionism will never completely expunge this but perhaps put it in its proper perspective

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:34 pm)

Becareful not to hold the Germans to a different standard of judgement than the others whose acts were much, much greater. Why isn't the Communist Party singled out?

There were no gas chambers, 6,000,000 Jews were not murdered, there was no state planned genocide of Jews.


Welcome to the Forum.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:17 am)

Hannover wrote:Becareful not to hold the Germans to a different standard of judgement than the others whose acts were much, much greater. Why isn't the Communist Party singled out?

- Hannover


Where were you during the Cold War? In hibernation?

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:23 am)

Sailor wrote:Jews were mostly gathered in ghettos and work camps, in concentration camps only when the work camp was associated with a concentration camp.

fge


Naturally, we require more information than that, Mr. Sailor. Locations, dates, numbers, etc.. We were hoping that Mr. Spartakus, with the benefit of a quarter of a century of study and reflection, could come to our aid. Mistakenly, so it would appear.

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Postby Spartakus » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:35 am)

Hebden, I will come to your aid but in my own way. And will the rest of you stop harping on the crimes of others?? Sheez! I mean, I understand your frustration because, historically speaking, Bomber Harris literally got away with murder. And Stalin's historical reputation, inspite of wide knowledge of his crimes, is still treated rather objectively by the world media and the history books. Because of 'Holocaust' mythology, however, Hitler and the Third Reich still get bad press - much more than is deserved knowing what we now know about their treatment of Jews but there is still a responsibility factor here to be observed and acknowledgement of this by revisionists is the only way to defuse establishment screams about anti-Semitism and hate-mongering whenever we try to set the record straight.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jan 23, 2004 10:36 am)

Mr. Hebden should be reminded that the Cold War was post WWII and I recall nothing being said about the Communist WWII atrocities during that period.
"If you deny the Nazi Holocaust, you can go to jail in many countries.
Denying the communist holocaust will get you a chair at any Western
university and tenure at the University of Toronto."

-Barbara Amiel, Maclean's magazine, March 20, 2000


- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby code yellow » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:16 pm)

:? Mr. Spartakus,although you bought up some fine points,they also seam to be tending towards one side of the coin,namely Jewish suffering during the National Socialist regime.I think it would enlighten your aproach a bit further to examine why it was that there was such annimosity towards Jews during that period,in other words examening Jewish activity during the period before as well as that led up to the Nazi's comming to power.Nazi's didn't decide they didn't like Jews because of the way they looked,there were obvious problems in Germany at the time where Jews were at the forefront,and eventualy seen as a threat to there existence.I think it is shallow and dismissive to assume that that Jews were the victims of racial persecution merely because of their race.

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Postby code yellow » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:32 pm)

Spartakus wrote:Hebden, I will come to your aid but in my own way. And will the rest of you stop harping on the crimes of others?? Sheez! I mean, I understand your frustration because, historically speaking, Bomber Harris literally got away with murder. And Stalin's historical reputation, inspite of wide knowledge of his crimes, is still treated rather objectively by the world media and the history books. Because of 'Holocaust' mythology, however, Hitler and the Third Reich still get bad press - much more than is deserved knowing what we now know about their treatment of Jews but there is still a responsibility factor here to be observed and acknowledgement of this by revisionists is the only way to defuse establishment screams about anti-Semitism and hate-mongering whenever we try to set the record straight.
:? Yes,stop harping on the crimes of others and only pay attention to the only deserved victims of WW2,the Jews.You see Spartakus,meaning no disrespect,that's one of the problems.In my short course of observation in the revisionist field,I have never found a revisionist who denied any suffering of Jews that was validly and clearly documented,only the alleged attrocities,wich the main protectors of the traditional holocaust version merely shrug off as anti-semetic lies,instead of confronting revisionist findings.

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Postby Spartakus » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:30 pm)

Yes, Yellow, I understand. I suppose I am just trying to put Jewish suffering during the National Socialist Regime in proper perspective with regards to actual conditions in the concentration camps and elsewhere. Sadly, with regards to WW2, all we seem to hear about is Jewish suffering and the only persecution we seem to hear about is persecution of Jews. Therefore, historical revisionism should aim to deal mostly with this issue in order to reduce it to its proper place in the history books. I, for one, would like to see more space devoted to the massacre of Armenians by Turks during WW1, the torture and murder of priests and nuns during the Russian Revolution, the mass killings of Sudeten Germans by Czechs in 1945, the summary execution of SS POW's by American troops etc. etc. etc. but because Revisionists always seem to be grappling with 'Holocaust' issues, they cannot help but be endlessly involved with issues of Jewish 'suffering' and how much or how little of it actually took place.
Regarding reasons for resentment against Jews, I understand fully the involvement of Jewish revolutionaries in Germany in 1918-1919, in Russia in 1917-1918 and in Hungary in 1919. I think, though, that this resentment was probably confined more to the military and the middle and upper classes and maybe the peasantry of these countries. The working classes, on the other hand, often fully embraced revolutionaries like Levien, Axelrod, Levine, Rosa Luxembourg, Radek, Trotsky, Bela Kun, Josef Pogany etc. as the only insurrectionists concerned with their fate and well-being.


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