Coke usage at Auschwitz

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borjastick
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Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby borjastick » 7 years 4 months ago (Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:17 am)

There has long been a heated debate about the amount of coke (coal) needed to be used to cremate a single body at auschwitz. Mattogno says one thing and the dear Muehlenkamp says that it is much much less. More that a similar amount of coke could be used to burn two or more bodies in one muffle.

Deliveries of coke to auschwitz during the period 1942-43 are recorded.

Firstly here is the wonderful Roberto's latest calculation and then follows my own very unscientific research.

From the holocaust controversies website:
Adding the fuel consumption of the four crematoria according to Topf’s above mentioned memo (2 x 2,800 + 2 x 1,120 = 7,840 kg) and dividing that figure by the number of people that could be cremated in a twelve hour period according to the Bauleitung letter of June 28, 1943(4,416 ./. 2 = 2,208), which seems to be realistic according to the above, we arrive at an average of 3.5507 kg of coke per body. The result of a remarkable technical achievement by the manufacturers, acknowledged as such by the AB Bauleitung.

So it is claimed with some force by the manufacturers and Bobby Muehlenkamp as well that 3.5kg of coke will incinerate a body. Due to the lack of bones etc at auschwitz we must assume that this cremation was most efficient down to the last rib and toe.

Last night my lovely wife and I enjoyed a summer's evening bbq. Open air of course, we cooked one pork strip and one large chicken leg. Total weight about 3/4lb or .34kg. We used about 1lb of charcoal. This cooked our food nicely to an edible standard. If we had left in on the bbq it would not have cooked much further as the heat was rapidly going out of the charcoal. So I fail to see how 3.5kgs of coke would cremate a body.

So now to my second unscientific research. I have a woodburner in my lounge for heating in the winter months. It is an 8kwh glass door unit which is very efficient. I usually burn oak and chestnut which has been well seasoned and dried for up to three years. This means it burns efficiently and gives out a lot of heat.

To get this started I would guess I burn about 2kgs of kindling and smaller logs split in two etc. Once up to speed I then load on a further 4-5kgs of bigger logs and shortly thereafter it begins to put out some serious heat. If I were to leave it at that it would burn for no more than an hour. I have a five metre inox chimney liner which ensures proper draw. So you can see where I am going with this. One small woodburner using 4kgs or more lasts for an hour or so. In a space that would never accomodate a human body.

One thing I noticed in Bobby's blog about this was that to burn as he claims the ovens had to be up to heat, thus using more coke.

Any comments?
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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Wings » 7 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:45 am)

Bones ( and Teeth ) are considered to be Refractory material, and, are not consumed in conventional fires or Crematory Retorts.

I do not have any links handy as for how much Coke a Coke fired Crematory Retort would use, to Cremate an average Cadaver, but I would expect it to be many times the figure of 3.5 KG.

To say nothing of how the interior of the Crematory Retort of course has to be brought up to the required temperature at which it is designed to operate, and to have a continuoujs Draft and Exiting of Hot Gasses out of a Flue, and, this itself, the Refractory Brick it is made of, takes quite a few BTUs to get up to heat. And, while being usually automated to-day, in the 1930s or 1940s, it took a fair amount of Skill and experience to run a Crematory Retort properly and effeciently, and, someone new to it would not be very likely to be able to do it.

It is a lot like managing a Wood fire or Coal or Coke fired Ceramic's Kiln for 'firing' Higher Temp traditional Ceramics ( not the 'dunkin' stuff or those hob biest painting greenware, which is very low temp fire in electric Kilns ) - it takes skill and experience to do properly. And if not managed properly either one ( Crematory or Ceramic's Kiln/Retort ) can use up endless BTUs and never get to temp.

Even as Natural Gas Kilns or Crematory Retorts/Kilns did prior to the recent advent of them being somewhat automatied or mostly automated in some cases.

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby borjastick » 7 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:14 am)

Well take a look at this comment from Mr Muehlenkamp on the same blog/subject. The key point here is the claim that these crematory ovens ran on fresh air and human flesh!

1. The crematoria at Auschwitz and Birkenau were not typical cremation ovens, but heavy-duty industrial ovens designed to run continuously, using the heat energy produced by the burning of previous bodies to keep the oven hot for the next bodies. After they were fired with coke to their proper operating temperature, they required little or no extra fuel to operate. A considerable but well-documented technical achievement. The cremation unit that one muffle was supposed to handle in a given time was a weight unit, which means that one or several persons adding up to that weight unit could be put into each muffle simultaneously without increasing the cremation time. Unlike in crematoria ovens used for civilian purposes, there was no need to wait for one body to have cremated completely. The practice actually was to put the next body or bodies in the muffle before the cremation process of the previous was complete.

If you want to find out more and for a fun filled afternoon of banter then here is the web address. http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -lies.html
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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Callahan » 7 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:54 pm)

borjastick wrote:Well take a look at this comment from Mr Muehlenkamp on the same blog/subject. The key point here is the claim that these crematory ovens ran on fresh air and human flesh!

1. The crematoria at Auschwitz and Birkenau were not typical cremation ovens, but heavy-duty industrial ovens designed to run continuously, using the heat energy produced by the burning of previous bodies to keep the oven hot for the next bodies. After they were fired with coke to their proper operating temperature, they required little or no extra fuel to operate. A considerable but well-documented technical achievement. The cremation unit that one muffle was supposed to handle in a given time was a weight unit, which means that one or several persons adding up to that weight unit could be put into each muffle simultaneously without increasing the cremation time. Unlike in crematoria ovens used for civilian purposes, there was no need to wait for one body to have cremated completely. The practice actually was to put the next body or bodies in the muffle before the cremation process of the previous was complete.

If you want to find out more and for a fun filled afternoon of banter then here is the web address. http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -lies.html


To be honest, I think this is one of the stronger cases for affirmationists. If the argument is that human bodies, once dehydrated, will act as a partial fuel source in a continually-burning, consecutive cremation process, I have trouble refuting that entirely. Consider the following comment on an environmental science thread about the overall energy content of a human body that is released when burned. It's not really scientific, but supports the account told by Believers:

I am looking at this question at a different angle. The data used are from the following website/web pages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... expectancy

http://www.answers.com/topic/body-composition

http://healthyeatingclub.com/info/books ... /data2a.ht

Selection of data used:

World life expectancy – 67.2 years, hence 60-69 age group. Therefore, data used are based on this age group wherever possible.

Formula used:

q = m(t)C

Where q = heat transferred, t = the change in temperature and C = the specific heat.

Composition of human body per 100kg of human body weight:

Bone – 13.5kg

Bones consist of mainly protein and calcium compounds. However, part of

this will be taken care of as protein.

Fat – 38kg

Man – 31%, Woman - 45%, hence average percentage – 38%

Muscle and organs – 8.5kg

Man – 14%, Woman - 11%, hence average percentage – 8.5%

Water – 49.5%

Man – 52%, Woman - 43%, hence average percentage – 47.5%.

However, to make up 100%, 49% is used in the calculation.

>>>

Energy contents:

Animal fat – 40kJ/g

This figure is true if you consume the fat as food. Fat will give off

much more energy in combustion! However, I am happy to use

the data for the time being.

Protein/carbohydrate – 18kJ/g

This figure is true if you consume the protein and carbohydrate as

food. Protein and carbohydrate will give off much more energy in

combustion! However, I am happy to use the data for the time

being.

Bone – n.a.

>>>

Total energy gain from combustion of 100kg human body mass:

From fat:

38000g * 40kj/g = 1520mJ

From proteins & carbohydrates:

12500g * 18kj/g = 225mJ

Total energy obtainable from burning 100kg human remain: 1745mJ

1745mJ is equivalent to roughly 1.6 million BTU-- plenty enough to burn another body. Unless I've misinterpreted something, and with consideration of the patent application that is referred to by Muehllenkamp (although I haven't seen it), it seems plausible that enough coke could have been available at Auschwitz for cremation in the numbers alleged by Believers.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Wings » 7 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:44 am)

There was no method for 'dehydrating' dead bodies prior to Cremation, and, there is no method or practice for that now either, or none which would not require a great deal of time, room, trouble and expense to do.

A dessicated or dehydrated Cadaver would not be able to burn on it's own, to temperatures which would likely evaporate Carbon, unless with a forced Draft.

They did used to burn Aegyptian 'Mummies' as Steam Locomotive Fuel in Egypt back when, and, they worked about as well as punky light species Wood, or, maybe not that well even,maybe more like burning Leather scraps or Beef Jerky, but in that environment, at that time, 'Mummies' were cheaper than Wood...this was only to Boil Water in an enclosed Boiler...and, if more heat than that had been needed, I doubt 'Mummies' would have sufficed...and I imagine there was an aweful lot of not consumed materials having to get constantly Raked out.

Anyone wishing to Burn say, some Beef Jerky, or to 'dessicate' a 'Roast' or even a thin 'Steak', and then burn IT on it's own, is welcome to report on how well it goes...how long it took, etc.

It is a bogus claim...as is opening and loading a Crematory Retort/Kiln/'Oven' while it is still up to Heat, or even half way up to or down from it's plateau Heat...forget it, no one does it, no one ever did it, no one ever will do it...and, it would instantly destroy the Refractory Brick if one tried, from the thermal shock of too rapidly cooling from the Door being open...let alone, no one would be able to stand close enough to load in the next Cadaver without catching fire themselves, or having terrible Burn and Eye injuries.

In order for the Crematory Retort to hold up, it has to be brought up to heat on a gradual schedule, not too fast...and, after being held on a plateau, with a regulated Draft and outflow/exhaust, and someone managing these, it still has to be allowed to cool slowly and to cool down to maybe a couple hundred degrees at most if one IS going to be 'rushing it', before Raking out the Bones and Teeth, and, introducing the next Candidate.

This takes time, and, usually, most of a full day to cremate 'one'average Body.


Anyone interested ought to go to their local Crematory, and find out for themselves.

I had a relative Cremated years ago, and, that is what I did.

The guys who actually ran the Crematory Retort were very kind to me and were glad to answer any questions, show me the 'Oven' and how it is run, and, soon, were into 'Shop Talk' with me, since I was sympathetic and I caught on fast, and, I am a practical fellow and this let them 'let their hair down' so to speak.

This then eventually led me to realize how entirely bogus the 'Holocaust' Cremation related claims were, and, I started digging into them.
Last edited by Wings on Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Toshiro » 7 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:21 am)

Callahan wrote:Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

You are wrong. See my discussion with Roberto in this thread.

Basically the believers would want you to believe the Nazis had some magical ovens that needed no extra fuel to cremate corpses. Complete nonsense.

I welcome anyone to find me a patent/schematic/explanation of how such a magical incinerator/oven operates. Until then this is just another Nazi fairytale like anti-gravity, and the technology simply got lost in time. You really have to be an idiot to believe it.

And it's 1,600 BTU/kg, which is not nearly enough to cremate your own corpse, let alone other corpses.

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Callahan » 7 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:17 am)

Thanks for your responses. I thought I'd give the benefit of the doubt to Believers on this issue, it seemed like a pretty good case. I concede defeat!
Toshiro wrote:You are wrong. See my discussion with Roberto in this thread.

You really have to be an idiot to believe it.

:drunken: Cut me a break, man, if I didn't check for holes I would have never ended up on this ship!

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby SKcz » 7 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:14 pm)

- cremation with 3,5kg of coke per corpse
- bodies cremated with little or no fuel
- multiple cremations in muffle without increasing overall cremation time.

I can´t believe that somebody is able to seriously debate with someone who says these ridiculous claims.

Looks like a trolling to me, such person do not want seriously discuss the topic, such person only enjoys the reactions caused by these claims.

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Callahan » 7 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:59 pm)

SKcz wrote:- cremation with 3,5kg of coke per corpse
- bodies cremated with little or no fuel
- multiple cremations in muffle without increasing overall cremation time.

I can´t believe that somebody is able to seriously debate with someone who says these ridiculous claims.

Looks like a trolling to me, such person do not want seriously discuss the topic, such person only enjoys the reactions caused by these claims.

I wouldn't jump to "trolling". Muehllenkamp makes a decent case to the less-informed. It's useful to have these refutations posted, even if they seem "ridiculous", to keep prospective readers aware of just how thoroughly these claims have been demolished on this forum.

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby SKcz » 7 years 4 months ago (Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:49 am)

Callahan wrote:
SKcz wrote:- cremation with 3,5kg of coke per corpse
- bodies cremated with little or no fuel
- multiple cremations in muffle without increasing overall cremation time.

I can´t believe that somebody is able to seriously debate with someone who says these ridiculous claims.

Looks like a trolling to me, such person do not want seriously discuss the topic, such person only enjoys the reactions caused by these claims.

I wouldn't jump to "trolling". Muehllenkamp makes a decent case to the less-informed. It's useful to have these refutations posted, even if they seem "ridiculous", to keep prospective readers aware of just how thoroughly these claims have been demolished on this forum.


Refutation is already here:

"Roberto Muehlenkamp debunked on 3.5kg of coke cremations"

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Callahan » 7 years 4 months ago (Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:18 am)

SKcz wrote:
Callahan wrote:
SKcz wrote:- cremation with 3,5kg of coke per corpse
- bodies cremated with little or no fuel
- multiple cremations in muffle without increasing overall cremation time.

I can´t believe that somebody is able to seriously debate with someone who says these ridiculous claims.

Looks like a trolling to me, such person do not want seriously discuss the topic, such person only enjoys the reactions caused by these claims.

I wouldn't jump to "trolling". Muehllenkamp makes a decent case to the less-informed. It's useful to have these refutations posted, even if they seem "ridiculous", to keep prospective readers aware of just how thoroughly these claims have been demolished on this forum.


Refutation is already here:

"Roberto Muehlenkamp debunked on 3.5kg of coke cremations"

I had noticed that. I was basing my first comment on Muehlenkamp's more recent HC blog where he argued that partially-burnt/dehydrated bodies can be used to sustain the cremations of subsequent corpses without the need for amounts of coke exceeding 3.5kg for each additional body, citing a patent application and otherwise.

My case was essentially put to rest when I read Toshiro's detailed discussion regarding the energy output of corpses, the effect of water content, etc., in the latter half of this above-mentioned thread:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6754

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Toshiro » 7 years 4 months ago (Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:51 am)

Callahan wrote:partially-burnt/dehydrated bodies can be used to sustain the cremations of subsequent corpses

Only if we're talking about either mummified corpses (not "dehydrated") or obese corpses (not "well-nourished", but Fat with a capital F).

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Wings » 7 years 4 months ago (Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:03 pm)

Toshiro wrote:
Callahan wrote:partially-burnt/dehydrated bodies can be used to sustain the cremations of subsequent corpses

Only if we're talking about either mummified corpses (not "dehydrated") or obese corpses (not "well-nourished", but Fat with a capital F).



Sure, try it yourself sometime, using Meat from a Butcher Shop...get some really 'fatty' Meat, and, some very lean meat.

Either one you want, dry it out first, then, you know, light it with a Match...see how 'self sustaining' the fire is.

Please let us know how that goes.

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Toshiro » 7 years 4 months ago (Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:44 am)

Wings wrote:Sure, try it yourself sometime, using Meat from a Butcher Shop...get some really 'fatty' Meat, and, some very lean meat.

Either one you want, dry it out first, then, you know, light it with a Match...see how 'self sustaining' the fire is.

Please let us know how that goes.

Read my post again. I said mummified (think Egypt), or obese (think 150-200 kg).

See this e-mail from a cremation service:
When an crematory operator evaluates the size of the body being cremated, they study carefully the impact of the amount of body fat because the BTU value rises substantially. For reference, 45kg of body fat = 46 liters of Kerosene which is 8391 BTU per kg. This represents nearly 19x more energy value when a body contains that much additional weight because of body fat. Just imagine placing 46 liters of kerosene into a hot cremation chamber running at 780 degrees Celsius.

Now I'm pretty sure neither mummified nor obese corpses were available at Auschwitz.

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 4 months ago (Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:01 am)

Wings:

Lighting with a match is not the same as burning in a fire. Try lighting diesel or heating oil with a match. Then try throwing it on an open fire.


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