Holocaust Demographics

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby skeptical » 7 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:44 am)

Nickt
I guess you are saying that 5million are "missing" and therefore killed.
My look at this is rudimentary but let's start with the initial size of the worldwide group. I have assumed that at the start of WW2 there were between 10 and 15 million Jews in the whole world ... In many places but primarily located in Europe or the middle East.
My understanding is that before and during the War millions of European Jews emigrated to the US and Israel.
There was a lot of name changing and undocumented immigration to these destinations.
As Hitler's antipathy towards the Jews became apparent I would imagine that many Jews fled Eastward into the Soviet sphere of influence.
There are many questions to be answered but the dramatic expansion of the US Jewish community and the Jewish population of Israel (as well as the expansion of other Non-European Jewish communities) would seem to go far in explaining where folks went.
You say that the whole line of reasoning is not just flawed but "stupid"...
You have limited the scope of this thread so severely that the term "missing" may be difficult to flesh out.
Would it be off topic to say "they rode on a train" or "gathered their possessions and got on a ship"?
Can you mention that they "walked" but not mention where they walked?
I often wonder if many of the Jews of Europe simply decided that, in the time of Hitler, being Jewish wasn't worth the effort, simply stopped practicing the religion and therefore "disappeared".
Entire religions have "disappeared" or appeared over the course of history... The disappearances may simply reflect a change of heart among the faithful... I would think that many Jews simply decided to disappear... Combine that with mass emigration and the sudden bloom in US, Soviet and Israeli Jewish populations and maybe the number of "missing" is lowered.
If your entire career, paycheck and social status depend on never finding those folks... How can your research on the matter be trusted. To me, Holocaust or no Holocaust.. It isn't the centerpiece of my life. It's more like an oddly shifting story that seems hard to pin down, interesting like a strange constellation. For you, it is a life ... If you vary be a half a degree from the standard line you will be tarred feathered and run out of academia on a rail.
You hang not just your hat but your entire social whirl on not finding "the missing" ... Is it possible you research displays that bias.
You say these things are freely discussed in your class..... I was talking to a devout Christian a while back... He explained that he had carefully studied Islam in Sunday school and they had all come to the conclusion that Islam is a cult.
You mentioned in some post that there are thousands of academics studying the Holocaust... And they all agree that anyone who disagrees is "stupid"
Over the course of human history it is common for academics to believe what they are paid to believe.
No one pays me to hold my beliefs (maybe you see that as foolish when it is so much more lucrative to have a "for rent" sign on your forehead)
The odd thing about the holocaust is the way it is handed down to the public, there is a well compensated elite who decide what the "truth" is, a massive marketing campaign to put the holocaust in every third graders mind and then an almost slavish adherence to that "truth" by a population that knows, any sort of deviation will be punished by a social exclusion.
Then there are thousands of gadflys who realize that the numbers just don't add up and who resent being lied to.
If you could prove the holocaust story or even show that you are an earnest researcher rather than a paid promoter I would wander off and look under other tents but Nick... Let's face it this cheese is full of holes and starting to smell funny.

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby Reviso » 7 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:50 am)

nickterry wrote:How many Jews immigrated to Israel after 1945/48 is not a question which has anything to do with forensics, but it is obviously very important regarding the number of the survivors.


Did Israel publish numbers ?

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby borjastick » 7 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:25 am)

Reviso wrote:
nickterry wrote:How many Jews immigrated to Israel after 1945/48 is not a question which has anything to do with forensics, but it is obviously very important regarding the number of the survivors.


Did Israel publish numbers ?


Not to state the bleeding obvious but Israel didn't exist until 1948, so any jews who arrived on the coast of what we now call Israel were actually arriving in Palestine. As I have said ad nauseum my father served in the Royal Irish Fusiliers between 1944-1947 in Egypt then Palestine, and saw with his own eyes 'hundreds or thousands' of ships arrive on the coast of Palestine and disgorge their human cargoes. The talk among his fellow troopers was that they never stopped coming, so much so that they simply couldn't cope with the processing of them. They were simply allowed into Palestine and disappeared into the hinterland, presumably to plan how they would steal as much land from the indiginous Palestinians, and then how they would kill as many as possible thereafter.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby Reviso » 7 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:52 am)

In his 1969 book "Essais sur le problème juif" (perhaps a French translation of his book "Non-Jewish Jew and other essays" ?), the jewish author Isaac Deutscher said that, immediately after the war, sionist organizations made pressures on the former concentration camp inmates in order to encourage them to go in Palestine rather than to return in their country of origin. Could this have had a considerable role ?

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby nickterry » 7 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:44 am)

Reviso wrote:
nickterry wrote:How many Jews immigrated to Israel after 1945/48 is not a question which has anything to do with forensics, but it is obviously very important regarding the number of the survivors.


Did Israel publish numbers ?


Yep. Statistical Abstracts of Israel would cover them

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby Reviso » 7 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:52 am)

nickterry wrote:
Reviso wrote:[Did Israel publish numbers ?


Yep. Statistical Abstracts of Israel would cover them


Thanks for the answer. May I ask whether these Abstracts were used against revisionism ?
Last edited by Reviso on Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby nickterry » 7 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:55 am)

borjastick wrote:
Reviso wrote:
nickterry wrote:How many Jews immigrated to Israel after 1945/48 is not a question which has anything to do with forensics, but it is obviously very important regarding the number of the survivors.


Did Israel publish numbers ?


Not to state the bleeding obvious but Israel didn't exist until 1948, so any jews who arrived on the coast of what we now call Israel were actually arriving in Palestine. As I have said ad nauseum my father served in the Royal Irish Fusiliers between 1944-1947 in Egypt then Palestine, and saw with his own eyes 'hundreds or thousands' of ships arrive on the coast of Palestine and disgorge their human cargoes. The talk among his fellow troopers was that they never stopped coming, so much so that they simply couldn't cope with the processing of them. They were simply allowed into Palestine and disappeared into the hinterland, presumably to plan how they would steal as much land from the indiginous Palestinians, and then how they would kill as many as possible thereafter.


Illegal immigration to Palestine still ended up being registered after 1948 by censuses. The Mandate authorities could easily track legal immigration and did so perfectly well; the discrepancy is not nearly as big as your anecdotal evidence from an eyewitness. Jeez, talk about double standards...

Israeli population registration statistics and censuses exist for the period immediately after 1948, along with immigration statistics and conventional birth/death information. A basic set of tables for population + immigration can be found here:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Archive/Commu ... ICATOR.htm

lots more data here
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... igtoc.html

No matter how you try to run the numbers, when you factor in country of origin, Israel did not absorb millions of Jews from Europe who could be considered Holocaust survivors much less Jews who are otherwise considered Holocaust victims. If someone wants to try, be my guest, but it doesn't even vaguely solve the overall demographic balance from the 1940s.

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby nickterry » 7 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:18 am)

Reviso wrote:
nickterry wrote:
Reviso wrote:[Did Israel publish numbers ?


Yep. Statistical Abstracts of Israel would cover them


Thanks for the answer. May I ask whether it was used against revisionism ?


whether what was used against revisionism?

Revisionists on this very forum have made arguments which contrast the Jewish population of Mandate Palestine and the present-day Jewish population of Israel, which is nearly 6 million, and seem to go 'voila! problem solved! the Holocaust victims went there!'

I'm simply pointing out that this is an immensely stupid and facile argument, because the censuses, immigration statistics, countries of origin and natural demographic rates of increase/decrease mean that no such claim can be made at all.

On the other hand, the details of immigration to Israel mean one can confirm and locate part of the May 1945 European Jewish population. And also check against censuses and statistics from the countries of origin, to go country by country. Which is ultimately the only way to do any of this, whether anyone likes it or not.

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby nickterry » 7 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:38 am)

Reviso wrote:In a note on Khrushchev's memoirs, Edward Crankshaw writes that, after the war, Stalin deported the Jews from Ukraine to Siberia. The revisionist Boisdefeu used this as an argument in the demographic question. Strangely, historians don't speak very much (if at all) of this deportation. Does anybody know a little more ? Thanks.
R.


The postwar deportation of Jews to Siberia is a myth. Some historians have fallen for the 1940s rumours and still mention the episode in recent books, but serious investigations have refuted this. Russian historians have investigated the whole episode in considerable detail now and found no such action was taken. The Soviet state kept very close track of deportations either to the GULag or to so-called 'special settlements' outside the camps, also of the nationality of deportees (and Jews were a nationality in the USSR), and there simply is no indication of such a deportation in the records or statistics. From what can be determined, the rumours were seized upon by some western observers and used as propaganda to claim Soviet beastliness early on in the Cold War, and by Israel to pressure the USSR to allow emigration. There were very large deportations of Ukrainian 'kulaks' from western Ukraine in the 1940s, and this was probably the origin of the false story about deportations of Jews.

It is true, however, that just before Stalin's death there was a major antisemitic campaign under way, which had he lived longer, might have resulted in deportations, following the fabricated 'doctors' plot'.

Some references, in Russian unfortunately, but the web pages can be dropped into google translate

G. V. Kostyrchenko, Tajnaya politika Stalina: vlast’ i antisemitizm , Moscow: Mezhdunarodnye otnosheniia, 2003, pp. 671 -685

G.V. Kostrychenko, “Deportatsiya – mistifikatsiya” in Lekhaim, 2002, no. 9 (125), http://www.lechaim.ru/ARHIV/125/kost.htm

also see his review of Brent and Naumov’s book about the Doctors’ plot – “Mezhdu mifom in naukoj”, Lekhaim, 2004, no. 10 (50), http://www.lechaim.ru/ARHIV/150/n2.htm

a quote from Kostrychenko:

The scale of rumours about impending mass deportation of Jews by the authorities increased significantly during the anti-cosmopolitan campaign to such an extent that that foreign press began mentioning this. On the pages of Jewish publications (especially in Israel, USA and UK) during the 1949 - 1952 period there were numerous reports about either an alleged decision taken by the Soviet authorities to deport the entire Jewish population of the country to Siberia, or about the completed resettlement of 400 thousand Jews from Russia to Siberia, or of the prepared depo rtation in the same direction of another 1 million Jews from the Ukraine and Belorussia. The appearance of such information in the Western press was largely due to the latent propaganda pressure, which since the end of 1949 the Israeli leaders began exerting towards the USSR, seeking thereby to induce Stalin to meet their requirements to allow the mass emigration of Jews from the USSR. Particularly insistent in this case was the Israeli Foreign Minister M. Sharett . On October 5 he was informed by the ambassador to the USSR Namir that Soviet Jews "live in fear and lack confidence in tomorrow" and "many" of them "fear deportation from Moscow is about to begin" . Ten days later Sharett replied with a coded t elegram sent to Moscow, which contained the following statement:
"We should start a campaign in the international Jewish press, especially in the U.S., as well as in non- Jewish press on the issue of the Soviet Jewry, allowing the leaks to the pre ss of all the correct information at our disposal, as well as rumours."
And although later the same Namir, as well as a director of East European Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Israel A. Levavi repeatedly informed Sharett of the unfounded nature of the rumours about the preparation of the deportation of Soviet Jews, publications about it in the Wester n press did not stop.

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby Reviso » 7 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:02 pm)

nickterry wrote:
a quote from Kostrychenko:

(...) the Israeli Foreign Minister M. Sharett . (...) Sharett replied with a coded t elegram sent to Moscow, which contained the following statement:
"We should start a campaign in the international Jewish press, especially in the U.S., as well as in non- Jewish press on the issue of the Soviet Jewry, allowing the leaks to the pre ss of all the correct information at our disposal, as well as rumours."
And although later the same Namir, as well as a director of East European Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Israel A. Levavi repeatedly informed Sharett of the unfounded nature of the rumours about the preparation of the deportation of Soviet Jews, publications about it in the Western press did not stop.


Impossible ! An Israeli statesman who deliberately spreads rumours about persecution of Jews ! In any case, thank you for the reply.

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby borjastick » 7 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:25 pm)

Not to state the bleeding obvious but Israel didn't exist until 1948, so any jews who arrived on the coast of what we now call Israel were actually arriving in Palestine. As I have said ad nauseum my father served in the Royal Irish Fusiliers between 1944-1947 in Egypt then Palestine, and saw with his own eyes 'hundreds or thousands' of ships arrive on the coast of Palestine and disgorge their human cargoes. The talk among his fellow troopers was that they never stopped coming, so much so that they simply couldn't cope with the processing of them. They were simply allowed into Palestine and disappeared into the hinterland, presumably to plan how they would steal as much land from the indiginous Palestinians, and then how they would kill as many as possible thereafter.[/quote]

Illegal immigration to Palestine still ended up being registered after 1948 by censuses. The Mandate authorities could easily track legal immigration and did so perfectly well; the discrepancy is not nearly as big as your anecdotal evidence from an eyewitness. Jeez, talk about double standards...

Israeli population registration statistics and censuses exist for the period immediately after 1948, along with immigration statistics and conventional birth/death information. A basic set of tables for population + immigration can be found here:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Archive/Commu ... ICATOR.htm

lots more data here
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... igtoc.html

No matter how you try to run the numbers, when you factor in country of origin, Israel did not absorb millions of Jews from Europe who could be considered Holocaust survivors much less Jews who are otherwise considered Holocaust victims. If someone wants to try, be my guest, but it doesn't even vaguely solve the overall demographic balance from the 1940s.[/quote]

No double standards on my part Mr Terry, if you mean me referencing my father's memories. I have no problem with witness statements so long as they are credible. We know from bitter experience all about the stupidity and absurdity of the so called witnessess who 'saw' all sorts but they lack any back up or credibility. As for my father and his comrades in arms, I have documentary and photographic proof of his being there and even pictures taken on the coast of him and lots of ships in the background. If you don't like it that's is your problem, my boy, and not mine. As for there being a full census that is almost impossible. In the three years nearly from the end of the war until the creation of Israel jews were arriving and disappearing into the countryside and by a long way not all were registered. They certainly didn't feel obliged to give details to the authorities. How many were there? No one really knows but as I have said hundreds and perhaps thousands of ships arrived and could easily account for a million plus. Over to you big boy...
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby Reviso » 7 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:41 pm)

nickterry wrote:
Reviso wrote:Thanks for the answer. May I ask whether it was used against revisionism ?


whether what was used against revisionism?


My question had been clearer under the following form : "May I ask whether these Abstracts were used against revisionism ?" It was only a question. If the Israeli statistics can say how much persons came from Poland or from Ukraine immediately after the war, couldn't it be relevant ?

But there is a problem with this. I know cases of Jewish former concentration camp inmates who went in Palestine immediately after the war (perhaps as a result of the pressures Isaac Deutscher speaks of) and who after one or two years came back in their country of origin, where they meanwhile had been classified as missing persons, because they had not reported their return before the prescribed time limit. The files where they were classified as missing persons were never updated.

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby nickterry » 7 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:46 pm)

borjastick wrote:No double standards on my part Mr Terry, if you mean me referencing my father's memories. I have no problem with witness statements so long as they are credible. We know from bitter experience all about the stupidity and absurdity of the so called witnessess who 'saw' all sorts but they lack any back up or credibility. As for my father and his comrades in arms, I have documentary and photographic proof of his being there and even pictures taken on the coast of him and lots of ships in the background. If you don't like it that's is your problem, my boy, and not mine. As for there being a full census that is almost impossible. In the three years nearly from the end of the war until the creation of Israel jews were arriving and disappearing into the countryside and by a long way not all were registered. They certainly didn't feel obliged to give details to the authorities. How many were there? No one really knows but as I have said hundreds and perhaps thousands of ships arrived and could easily account for a million plus. Over to you big boy...


I've no doubt your father saw lots and lots of ships arriving in those years. But he was one observer at one point and his impressions are going to be trumped by documentary evidence of the statistics from Israeli censuses, just the same as Auschwitz survivors saying 4 million dead are trumped by documents showing it cannot have been that many. Thanks, anyway, for showing that witnesses can believe more people are arriving somewhere than was actually the case. Your father isn't lying about there being loads of arriving ships any more than an Auschwitz survivor is lying about there being loads of arriving trains. But they're both prone to exaggeration because of the situation and only having one vantage point.

No country can afford to lie blatantly about holding millions more people than is actually the case, the state and business need to know the population in order to plan.

By 1958, ten years after independence, Israel had a population of 2.032 million. The stats on this webpage
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Archive/Commu ... ICATOR.htm
indicate that between 1949-1957, there were 631,685 immigrants. In 1949, the population is given as 1.174 million. The difference between the two population figures minus immigration is 227,000, which would mostly consist of natural population growth, but would also include Arab and other minorities who in turn would be showing up in the 1949 figure.

Even being generous in allowing that some Jews would not be properly registered in 1947, this would not be the case a decade later.

There were censuses in 1953, 1957, 1962 and 1967 - every five years. The numbers of Israeli Jews can be seen clearly here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews#Growth
and didn't exceed 3 million even in 1967.

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby Hannover » 7 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:10 pm)

Israeli statistics? Is this a joke?

Since when is 'Israel' honest about anything? According to them they have no nuclear weapons, but the entire world knows they have hundreds. Israel denies the mass murder, ethnic cleansing, and obliteration of countless Palestinian villages while the facts that they have done this are irrefutable.

That "shitty little country" with it's blatantly violent, racist / apartheid policies would never under count it's Jewish population in order to assist in the 'holocaust' scam. No, they would never do that. Reminds me of the highly touted economic statistics presented by the Soviet Union before they imploded because of a pathetic economy.

Once again, Nick Terry makes a claim which relies upon the 'gas chambers' story being fact, yet he cannot prove that the alleged 'gas chambers' existed. He cannot even demonstrate how these 'gas chambers' supposedly worked. I call that a Revisionist victory over Nick Terry.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby nickterry » 7 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:17 pm)

Reviso wrote:
nickterry wrote:
Reviso wrote:Thanks for the answer. May I ask whether it was used against revisionism ?


whether what was used against revisionism?


My question had been clearer under the following form : "May I ask whether these Abstracts were used against revisionism ?" It was only a question. If the Israeli statistics can say how much persons came from Poland or from Ukraine immediately after the war, couldn't it be relevant ?


The statistics do indeed say this as far as I am aware. The number of Polish Jews immigrating from 1948 onwards was about 170,000. Figures for the Soviet Union are negligible for the 1940s and 1950s but rise in the 1970s once the 'refuseniks' were allowed to leave. Since Polish Jews did not immigrate directly from Poland to Palestine/Israel but via Germany-Austria-Italy and DP camps, the statistics must relate to country of origin.

While there are a few hoops to go through, the numbers for Polish Jews after the war are quite good, since there was a rapid population registration for the Jewish community in earlt 1945 before the end of the war, showing very very few survivors who had been in hiding. Then the Polish Jews who had been evacuated into the USSR were repatriated, along with Jews with Polish nationality from before 1939 out of western Belarus, western Ukraine and Vilno. The repatriatons left more statistics. In 1945-47 the Polish Jewish community was continually registered and showed the expected growth due to the repatriations + some returning from camps in Germany. Then it fell, so that the Polish Jews went into Germany and were registered at DP camps. From the DP camps, they then began the process of emigrating to Palestine/Israel, so they show up in statistics or retrospective censuses in Israel. Thus, the same 100-200,000 people appear in statistics of four different countries/authorities.

But there is a problem with this. I know cases of Jewish former concentration camp inmates who went in Palestine immediately after the war (perhaps as a result of the pressures Isaac Deutscher speaks of) and who after one or two years came back in their country of origin, where they meanwhile had been classified as missing persons, because they had not reported their return before the prescribed time limit. The files where they were classified as missing persons were never updated.


This would not affect the overall statistical picture materially, certainly not on a mass scale. There are too many places where someone would have to be registered at some point on the criss-crossing journeys. Most decent demographic studies allow for groups who stayed abroad or re-emigrated in other directions. And by the 1950s, things have settled down, so people are usually counted in censuses and other records/statistics.

Former concentration camp inmates can be tracked statistically and by name through the Nazi camp system quite well in the later war years. There simply weren't millions of Jews in the KZ system in 1945, since it only held 700,000 prisoners in January 1945 and saw quite high losses before the end of the war, not to mention holding a very large number of non-Jewish prisoners. Depending on the camp there would be a name register (eg Flossenburg's is very good) and thus, people can be tracked historically to specific regions in 1945.

Jewish former KZ inmates who did not return home (to where?), but stayed in Germany/Austria were generally registered as Displaced Persons, leaving a file card which is now in the ITS Arolsen collection. To get food, you needed to be registered somewhere, you needed an ID card. While there was not perfect record keeping during immigration to Palestine before 1948 or immediately afterwards, there was a lot of record keeping there, too. In fairly short order there would also be emigration statistics kept by the Israeli authorities. Once arriving back at a country of origin then as I said, more registrations, more censuses.

In the end there probably were some people who eluded registration entirely but the same could be said for the starting point of national censuses and wartime registrations in the 1930s and 1940s. One would accept a certain percentage who are forever 'in flux', but not more than a tiny minority. And certainly not 5+ million.


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