Transports onwards from Treblinka etc.

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borjastick
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Transports onwards from Treblinka etc.

Postby borjastick » 7 years 1 month ago (Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:45 pm)

Recently I was reading parts of the holocaustcontroversiesblog website, and came across the challenge to prove onward transports from Treblinka by naming people actually transported. Of course this is as difficult as the believers answering the challenge to prove deaths by gassings.

As I understand things, there are records of transports to Treblinka but none onwards from there. On the other hand I have no doubt that the claims of 700,000 or more deaths at the camp are pure fantasy, and of course there has been zero proof that this happened. The holocaustians have failed spectacularly to prove any such claim, and when faced with a simple and relatively straightforward task of digging the place up to reveal the remains, they run faster than Jesse Owens on speed!

However if I accept the sensible proposition that hundreds of thousands of jews were processed through Treblinka etc and then resettled much further east, I would think there must be some social records in the location/s where they ended up. After all I doubt they were dropped off five at a time at local stations all the way to Khazakstan. So they must have been resettled in very large numbers. And so I am asking if anyone has a thought on this and if any research or evidence exists of large numbers of people suddenly appearing in eastern european towns in the war period. With the passage of time many governments have released previously secret data and records from the second world war. Coupled with that the fall of the iron curtain and one could reasonably expect some data to surface.
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Re: Transports onwards from Treblinka etc.

Postby Raymond » 7 years 1 month ago (Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:09 pm)

Actually, there are records of people trasferred through Treblinka, I'm pretty sure Hannover can quote exact dates. It is the summer of 1942 that presents a problem for revisionists since no records of transit can be found at that time and it is then that the supposed killing was at its max at T2. However, there are a few survivors living in Beverly Hills that went through the "pure extermination" site of Treblinka. Eric Hunt has featured them on his website.

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Re: Transports onwards from Treblinka etc.

Postby Hannover » 7 years 1 month ago (Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:23 pm)

The outbound train records were destroyed or hidden by those who would benefit. And who would that be?

On the curious lack of outbound train records, from previous posts:

points:
We know there are plenty of train transport records TO various camps, we have none which show trains LEAVING. Why is that?

- Didn't the trains go somewhere after their trips to the alleged 'death camps'?

- Does anyone really think the Germans didn't keep records of where their trains went, full or empty?

- Would the Germans deliberately destroy their records of outbound trains while not destroying the records of inbound trains?

- So where did they outbound transport records go?

The lack of these outgoing train records is damning to the story.


As I stated, The Germans would need to know where their trains were. I can't imagine a single train moving along without some sort of records after leaving one stop, then moving to another. Efficient use of the trains including the amounts of fuel, labor force used on the trains, repairs, labor force being transported, train contents, billing information requirements (yes, companies and people had to be paid), etc., would be absolutely critical. And that would involve keeping inbound records and outbound records for accounting purposes.

As has been demonstrated repeatedly here and in multiple Revisionist publications, Jews were transported into camps and out of camps for the purpose of labor and planned resettlement. Any country in the midst of a huge war for it's survival would want to know where their trains were so that the arrival of the trains could be anticipated in a timely manner. Even an empty train would need to be tracked such that the railway officials would know when to anticipate it's return, and when the train could be placed back into service. Pretty basic stuff.

It makes no sense for the Germans to leave behind inbound records but not to maintain outbound records. Knowing fully the false propaganda that was being spread about them and that a lack of outbound records could certainly be used against them. And of course, the propagandists clearly knew this, hence this accounts for the lack of outbound records. So very convenient.

With a massive war raging, trains provided practically everything needed, food, armaments, ammo, troops, workers being taken to labor sites. Empty, partially full, full, whatever, the requirements of knowing where the trains were would be immensely important to the war effort.


And then the gorilla in the room, there are no verifiable, excavated mass graves as alleged at Treblinka which can be shown. Which contain verifiable photos and forensic data. Not a single one as alleged. Why?

Pretty simple really.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Transports onwards from Treblinka etc.

Postby borjastick » 7 years 1 month ago (Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:33 pm)

Hannover you make good points, none of which do I disagree with. However this leads to my other issue raised in the thread, where did they go? They were significant numbers and as already said they would have been taken en masse to towns in eastern europe where there surely would have been records. I cannot imagine 10,000 homeless people per week arriving in locations and not being noticed!

This is an important issue for revisionism, because if we can prove large numbers of jews arriving elsewhere from Treblinka, the Treblinka myth and lies will have truly been busted.
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Re: Transports onwards from Treblinka etc.

Postby Hannover » 7 years 1 month ago (Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:37 pm)

borjastick wrote:Hannover you make good points, none of which do I disagree with. However this leads to my other issue raised in the thread, where did they go? They were significant numbers and as already said they would have been taken en masse to towns in eastern europe where there surely would have been records. I cannot imagine 10,000 homeless people per week arriving in locations and not being noticed!

This is an important issue for revisionism, because if we can prove large numbers of jews arriving elsewhere from Treblinka, the Treblinka myth and lies will have truly been busted.

That's the point. There should be records galore. So where are they? Who benefits from disappearing them? Not the Germans.

And of course, cutting to the chase, no mass graves as alleged can be shown. I always have to throw that inconvenient fact in.

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Re: Transports onwards from Treblinka etc.

Postby Lohengrin » 7 years 1 month ago (Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:55 pm)

borjastick: "However this leads to my other issue raised in the thread, where did they go? They were significant numbers and as already said they would have been taken en masse to towns in eastern europe where there surely would have been records. I cannot imagine 10,000 homeless people per week arriving in locations and not being noticed!
This is an important issue for revisionism, because if we can prove large numbers of jews arriving elsewhere from Treblinka, the Treblinka myth and lies will have truly been busted."

In short:
1. There are witnesses and publications which indicate there were outbound transports.
2. Surely there were also documents of outbound transports from Treblinka 2.
3. It's very logical that all of these are "missing", after the Soviets 'liberated' those camps (read on).
4. Qui bono? The Soviets were the only one party profiteering by destroying all documents of outbound trains, and what is more, for whom it was a pure necessity to destroy that part of the evidence: the Soviets.

Why this was so, becomes clear, if one takes into account that the Soviets:
a. As we all know, they gave before and after astronomous numbers of "gassed" people in those camps; outbound transports from those camps for this reason contradicts the official Soviet 'historiography'. (As for Stalin Soviet prisoners of War "didn't exist, because a Soviet soldier fights until death", so outbound transports from the camps didn't exist because "the fascists murdered millions and millions of Soviet-civilians in those camps.")
b. Stalin (Kaganovitz, c.s.) during War deported millions of Jews (and others) to Siberia and the Gulag. Of those, nobody was supposed to be to return alive.
c. To ensure the obscuration of this, immediately after the War, all communication between Soviet-citizens and the West was strictly forbidden, censored, punished and totally out of the question. (This for more than 40 years.)

This all was part of a Soviet policy to demonize the Germans, to promote themselves as "liberators" and not as Devils, to justify the murder of millions of innocent German civilians and illegal occupation of East-Germany and the whole of Eastern- Europe.

It is as simple as that.

My proof of German transport of hundreds of thousands of Jewish people to the Soviet-Union: Shortly after the War, on February 8th 1946, Sovjet IMT-Chief prosecutor general Rudenko, declared in his opening speech "there were specially build German concentration camps on Sovjet territory for "hundreds of thousands women, children and people unfit for work". He continued: “I mention concentration camps in Smolensk, Stavropol, Kharkov, Kiev, Lvov, Poltava, Novgorod, Orel, Rivne, Dnepropetrovsk, Odessa, Kamenetz-Podolsk, Gomel, Kerch, the regions of Stalingrad, Kaunas, Riga, Mariampos, Klooga and many other camps" [...] [IMT, VII, 180]. Three of these camps were described in detail in document USSR-4: “On March 19, 1944, Sovjet forces find in Polesia (White-Russia), inside the German defense line three concentration camps in Ozaritschi, between Minsk and Kiev; in those camps there were more than 33.000 children, women, elderly people and people unfit for work". (See also: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-08-46.asp ).
This document was delivered by prosecutor Smirnov, but not taken up in the IMT-documents. Why not?

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Re: Transports onwards from Treblinka etc.

Postby Goethe » 7 years 1 month ago (Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:20 pm)

Lohengrin,
Nicely done, quite the dagger.
"The coward threatens when he is safe".
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Re: Transports onwards from Treblinka etc.

Postby Kladderadatsch » 7 years 1 month ago (Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:43 pm)

Lohengrin wrote:My proof of German transport of hundreds of thousands of Jewish people to the Soviet-Union: Shortly after the War, on February 8th 1946, Sovjet IMT-Chief prosecutor general Rudenko, declared in his opening speech "there were specially build German concentration camps on Sovjet territory for "hundreds of thousands women, children and people unfit for work". He continued: “I mention concentration camps in Smolensk, Stavropol, Kharkov, Kiev, Lvov, Poltava, Novgorod, Orel, Rivne, Dnepropetrovsk, Odessa, Kamenetz-Podolsk, Gomel, Kerch, the regions of Stalingrad, Kaunas, Riga, Mariampos, Klooga and many other camps" [...] [IMT, VII, 180]. Three of these camps were described in detail in document USSR-4: “On March 19, 1944, Sovjet forces find in Polesia (White-Russia), inside the German defense line three concentration camps in Ozaritschi, between Minsk and Kiev; in those camps there were more than 33.000 children, women, elderly people and people unfit for work". (See also: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-08-46.asp ).
This document was delivered by prosecutor Smirnov, but not taken up in the IMT-documents. Why not?


The problem with these quotations is that, when taken in context, they clearly refer to alleged atrocities committed against Soviet citizens. For example, the passage in IMT VII which lists the various concentration camps reads as follows:

The names have already been mentioned here of the camps of Maidanek and Auschwitz with their gas-chambers, in which over 5,500,000 completely innocent people, citizens of Poland, Czechoslovakia, U.S.S.R., U.S.A., Great Britain, France, and other democratic countries were killed. I must name the concentration camps of Smolensk, Stavropol, Kharkov, Kiev, Lvov, Poltava, Novgorod, Orel, Rovno, Dniepropetrovsk, Odessa, Kamenetz-Podolsk, Gomel, Kerch, of the Stalingrad region, of Kaunas, Riga, Mariampol (Lithuanian) of Kloga (Estonian) and many others, in which hundreds of thousands of Soviet nationals belonging to the civilian population, as well as soldiers and officers of the Red Army, were tortured to death by the Hitlerites.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-08-46.asp


And the presentation by Smirnov, in full context, also refers to Soviet citizens:

Maidanek and Auschwitz camps served as a means of extermination only for those who really were sent to these camps. These two camps were not a direct menace for those people who were outside the walls of the camp; but, in the course of the war, having already suffered grave defeats, German fascism began to practice new bestialities for exterminating peaceful citizens-thus, in Bielorussia camps of death, not only to exterminate the inmates of the camp itself but, first and foremost, to spread infectious diseases among the peaceful population and the ranks of the Red Army. There were no crematoria and gas chambers in these camps but these camps should in all justice be considered as among the most brutal concentration camps which were created by fascism for extermination of people.

I present to the Tribunal as Exhibit Number USSR-4 (Document Number USSR-4) the report of the Extraordinary State Commission of the Soviet Union for the investigation of the murder of people by means of spreading typhus epidemics. Such evidence was not presented before, and I shall therefore quote several excerpts from this report. I begin the quotation on Page 454 of the document book, first column of the text, first paragraph; last paragraph on Page 266 of the Russian text. I begin the quotation:

"On 19 March 1944 advancing Red Army units discovered, near the settlement of Osaritchi in the region of Polesskoy in the Bielorussian S.S.R., within the limits of German defense lines, three concentration camps in which there were over 33,000 children, women, and old men incapable of work."

I interrupt my quotation, and I omit one paragraph.

"The camps were really open squares surrounded by barbed wire. The approaches to them were mined. There were no buildings whatever even of the most insignificant type in the camp grounds."

I call the Tribunal's attention to the fact that all this happened in March, in Bielorussia, when it is really very cold there. . . .

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-19-46.asp


Taken in isolation, the colored portions of each text, as quoted by Lohengrin, suggest the possibility that the camps in question might have been made to intern Jewish deportees from further west. But once looked at in context, it's clear that what the Russians were claiming in each case was that the internees were actually local Soviet citizens and captured Soviet soldiers.

Smirnov doesn't quote the full text, but the original text of USSR-4 ("Report on the extermination . . . by disease") makes the point even more clearly:

According to the plan worked out beforehand, the German-Fascist authorities organised deportation stations to which they drove the entire civilian population. There the Germans first picked out the able-bodied men, women and children over thirteen years of age, and dispatched them to forced labour in Germany. The remaining children and invalid adults were sent to concentration camps at the forward edge of the defences.

Between March 9 and March 13, 1944, the Hitlerites drove tens of thousands of Soviet people, under reinforced escort of S.S. and Security Police, to camps in the area of the small town of Ozarichi . . .

[see attached images below]


In other words, whatever else they may prove, the reports of camps at Ozarichi and elsewhere cannot be taken as evidence that Jews from the west were resettled in the occupied territories. To say that, of course, is not to imply that no such resettlement could have occurred. But for evidence of that, revisionists will have to look to other sources: Rudenko's statement and USSR-4 give no reason to assume that the camps in question ever held anyone but local Soviet citizens and Soviet prisoners of war.



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and on it goes . . .
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Re: Transports onwards from Treblinka etc.

Postby Hannover » 7 years 1 month ago (Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:36 am)

Kladderadatsch said:
In other words, whatever else they may prove, the reports of camps at Ozarichi and elsewhere cannot be taken as evidence that Jews from the west were resettled in the occupied territories. To say that, of course, is not to imply that no such resettlement could have occurred. But for evidence of that, revisionists will have to look to other sources: Rudenko's statement and USSR-4 give no reason to assume that the camps in question ever held anyone but local Soviet citizens and Soviet prisoners of war.

I would have to disagree. Of course the Soviets are not going to say that Jews from Auchschwitz, Treblinka, or other work camps were sent to these sites. After all, it was the Soviet communists who were pushing the '4,000,000' for Auschwitz alone, plus an additional 1,500,000 for Majdanek. These numbers are not even accepted within the latest 'holocaust' storyline.

What it does establish is that there was infrastructure in place where Jews were undoubtedly sent. This fact undermines the false claim that there were no places for Jews to be transported to the east. Not to mention (as has been mentioned) the fact that Jews themselves state that they were transported out of Treblinka, Auschwitz, and other camps.

So where are the curiously missing outbound transport records?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Transports onwards from Treblinka etc.

Postby borjastick » 7 years 1 month ago (Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:38 am)

This is all very plausible and interesting. I would guess that the records were destroyed in the destruction of the camp. What we do know is the inmates went somewhere, clearly they are not buried there as claimed.
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Re: Transports onwards from Treblinka etc.

Postby Hannover » 7 years 1 month ago (Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:28 pm)

Kladderadatsch said:
In other words, whatever else they may prove, the reports of camps at Ozarichi and elsewhere cannot be taken as evidence that Jews from the west were resettled in the occupied territories. To say that, of course, is not to imply that no such resettlement could have occurred. But for evidence of that, revisionists will have to look to other sources: Rudenko's statement and USSR-4 give no reason to assume that the camps in question ever held anyone but local Soviet citizens and Soviet prisoners of war.

Why would the Germans relocate ordinary "local Soviet citizens"? POWs yes, but why move ordinary Soviet citizens into camps? There was no purpose. The Germans had no policy whatsoever of moving every local citizen into camps. Rudenko is engaging in a little sleight of hand here.

The dead giveaway:
"there were specially build German concentration camps on Sovjet territory for "hundreds of thousands women, children and people unfit for work"
And who does this "unfit for work" apply to in the 'holocaust' narrative. Unless the storyline has been changed again, this applies to Jews and legally sentenced inmates, and POWs only, local citizens, unless they found guilty of crime, were not sent to labor camps.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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