Correction of Auschwitz deaths in 1989.

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
User avatar
jimcp
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:06 am
Location: Rotterdam
Contact:

Correction of Auschwitz deaths in 1989.

Postby jimcp » 7 years 2 months ago (Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:46 am)

I am new to this forum, to revisionism and I am not a historian ( I am a programmer ), I hope that still qualifies me to ask questions on this forum. I watched Dean Irebodd's movie on the ( alleged ) Auschwitz gas chambers and I agree that proof by numbers alone should be sufficient to accept the revisionist's arguments. According to Wikipedia ( topic: The Holocaust ) 6 million Jews were killed, of which about 3 million in extermination camps with Auschwitz attributing 1 million. My question is about the revision In 1989 of the number of deaths in alleged gas chambers from 4 million to 1.1 million.

What were the figures before 1989? Did the total deaths go down from 9 to 6 million? or did the number of 6 million remain constant and was it the cause of death that was changed? What was the reason to lower the figure of deaths in Auschwitz? What arguments were used?

jimcp.

Mkk
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 566
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:00 am

Re: Correction of Auschwitz deaths in 1989.

Postby Mkk » 7 years 1 month ago (Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:31 am)

Wikipedia parrots the official story through and through, only responding to revisionist arguments with ad hominems of "denial".

The "holocaust" death toll has always remained at between 5 and 6 million, although a handful of "historians" have vied for figure between 4 and 5 million.

Wikipedia can't produce any original documents nor mass graves in support of the 6 million.

Welcome to the forum, I hope you find out how wrong "Wikipedia" is!
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2531
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: Correction of Auschwitz deaths in 1989.

Postby borjastick » 7 years 1 month ago (Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:54 am)

Welcome jimcp to the place where the truth be told.

Your question is a good one. The figure of about 6m deaths has been a round since the mid 19th century. When the opportunity came for the jews to grab a country (Palestine) they couldn't resist the 6m figure. However when the official deaths figure of 4m at Auschwitz was reduced by a whopping 2.5m the 6m figure remained firmly entrenched. The reason given was that six million jews were killed and those lower deaths figures at auschwitz only applied to non jewish inmates... For me this is where the jews made one of their biggest mistakes. They had a perfect chance to come clean and benefit from a little burst of truth and honesty. The world would have given them credit, though not as much money, for doing so.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

User avatar
ClaudiaRothenbach
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 569
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:16 pm

Re: Correction of Auschwitz deaths in 1989.

Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 7 years 1 month ago (Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:53 pm)

Hilberg published the one million figure in in his book "the destruction ..." in the sixties already.
Since then the figures are 1.1 M Auswitch, 2 M Reinhardt, 2 M Einsatzgruppen = 5.1 M

The 4 M allways have been a lie of the jewish bolshevics and the western main stream media (also mainly jewish).
"Everything has already been said, but not yet by everyone." - Karl Valentin

User avatar
jimcp
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:06 am
Location: Rotterdam
Contact:

Re: Correction of Auschwitz deaths in 1989.

Postby jimcp » 7 years 1 month ago (Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:48 pm)

I feel welcome already, thanks.

So the lowering of 2.5 million if 1989 was entirely attributed to non-Jewish deaths. What was the reason for the lowering in 1989? How did they explain that they could have been so wrong for such a long time? The data about the number of Jews per country in Europe are they based on official government records or are they estimates?

P.S.
Wikipedia is a reasonable source for programming and mathematics topics, but I suppose that's about it. Even in the area of sciences it is abused ( i.e. Global warming ). That's sad, I used to see Wikipedia as one of the greatest achievements of humankind, shared, readily available and up-to-date information for all.

User avatar
Kingfisher
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1673
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:55 pm

Re: Correction of Auschwitz deaths in 1989.

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 1 month ago (Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:44 pm)

The 4 million was a figure from the Soviets and the Poles that was not taken seriously by mainstream historians, but the media seemed happy to parrot it. Hilberg said 1 million and I think Davidowicz did too, though they were only interested in Jews. The Poles argued that more than half of those murdered were Polish and those couple of million seem to have disappeared without trace now! None of these figures are based on any kind of real evidence. 6 million is, of course, immutable.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9911
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: Correction of Auschwitz deaths in 1989.

Postby Hannover » 7 years 1 month ago (Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:50 pm)

Here's some incriminating information from an earlier post of mine from another thread. Here's a couple of plaques. One for a TOTAL of 340,000 deaths at Auschwitz "AND OTHER CAMPS", one for 4,000,000 deaths at Auschwitz, and more. They just can't keep their impossible stories straight.

- Hannover
Hannover wrote:Image
translation:
During the period of this camp's existence 405,222 prisoners -- men, women and children -- were entered in the books. Of this number, around 340,000 persons perished at Auschwitz and in the other camps.

AND IN OTHER CAMPS. Oops

This plaque existed until 1990:
Image

June 7, 1979. Pope John Paul II praying for the big "4 million" lie and blessing non-existent victims. The Poles bestowed "Holocaust" medals posthumously to non-existent martyrs.
Image

After the second Zündel trial in Canada, the inscriptions on the plaques in Auschwitz were removed. Below is Ernst Zündel pointing out during a visit to Auschwitz where the lying inscriptions used to be.
Image

and:
Number of Alleged Dead in Auschwitz

9,000,000 Cited by the French documentary, Night and Fog, which has been shown to millions of school students worldwide.

8,000,000 The French War Crime Research Office, Doc. 31, 1945.

7,000,000 Also cited by the French War Crime Research Office.

6,000,000 Cited in the book “Auschwitz Doctor” by Miklos Nyiszli. It has since been proven that this book is a fraud and the "doctor" was never even at Auschwitz, even though the book is often cited by historians.

5,000,000 to 5,500,000 Cited in 1945 at the trial of Auschwitz commander Rudolf Hoess, based on his “confession” which was written in English, a language he never spoke.

5,000,000 Cited on April 20, 1978 by the French daily, Le Monde. Also cited on January 23, 1995 by the German daily Die Welt. By September 1, 1989, Le Monde reduced the figure to 1,433,000.

4,500,000 In 1945 this figure was cited by another witness at the aforementioned Hoess trial.

4,000,000 Cited by a Soviet document of May 6, 1945 and officially acknowledged by the Nuremberg War Crimes trial. This figure was also reported in The New York Times on April 18, 1945, although 50 years later on January 26, 1995 (see below), The New York Times and The Washington Post slashed the figure to 1,500,000 citing new findings by the Auschwitz Museum officials. In fact, the figure of 4,000,000 was later repudiated by the Auschwitz museum officials in 1990 (see below) but the figure of 1,500,000 victims was not formally announced by Polish President Lech Walesa until five years after the Auschwitz historians had first announced their discovery.

3,500,000 Cited in the 1991 edition of the Dictionary of the French Language and by Claude Lanzmann in 1980 in his introduction to Filip Muller's book, “Three Years in an Auschwitz Gas Chamber.”

3,000,000 Cited in a forced confession by Rudolf Hoess, the Auschwitz commander who said this was the number of those who had died at Auschwitz prior to Dec. 1, 1943. Later cited in the June 7, 1993 issue of Heritage, the most widely read Jewish newspaper in California, even though three years previously the authorities at the Auschwitz museum had scaled down the figure to a minimum of 1,100,000 and a maximum of 1,500,000. (see below).

2,500,000 Cited by a famous "witness to the Holocaust," Rudolf Vrba, when he testified on July 16, 1981 for the Israeli government's war crimes trial of former SS official Adolf Eichmann.

2,000,000 Cited by no less than three famous Holocaust historians, including Leon Poliakov (1951) writing in “Harvest of Hate”; Georges Wellers, writing in 1973 in “The Yellow Star at the Time of Vichy”; and Lucy Dawidowicz, writing in 1975 in “The War Against the Jews.”

2,000,000 to 4,000,000 Cited by Israeli historian Yehuda Bauer in 1982 in his book, “A History of the Holocaust.” However, by 1989 Bauer revised his figures and determined that the actual number was lower: 1,600,000.

1,600,000 This is a 1989 revision by Israeli historian Yehuda Bauer of his earlier figure in 1982 of 2,000,000 to 4,000,000, Bauer cited this new figure on September 22, 1989 in The Jerusalem Post, at which time he wrote' 'The larger figures have been dismissed for years, except that it hasn't reached the public yet."

1,500,000 In 1995 this was the “official" number of Auschwitz deaths announced by Polish President Lech Walesa as determined by the historians at the Auschwitz museum. This number was inscribed on the monument at the Auschwitz camp at that time, thereby "replacing" the earlier 4,000,000 figure that had been formally repudiated (and withdrawn from the monument) five years earlier in 1990. At that time, on July 17, 1990 The Washington Times reprinted a brief article from The London Daily Telegraph citing the "new" figure of 1,500,000 that had been determined by the authorities at the Auschwitz museum. This new figure was reported two years later in a UPI report published in the New York Post on March 26, 1992. On January 26, 1995 both The Washington Post and The New York Times cited this 1,500,000 figure as the new "official" figure (citing the Auschwitz Museum authorities).

1,471,595 This is a 1983 figure cited by historian Georges Wellers who (as noted previously) had determined, writing in 1973, that some 2,000,000 had died. In his later calculation, Wellers decided that of the 1,471,595 who had died at Auschwitz, 1,352,980 were Jews.

1,433,000 This figure was cited on September 1, 1989 by the French daily, Le Monde, which earlier, on April 20, 1978, had cited the figure at 4,000,000.

1,250,000 In 1985, historian Raul Hilberg arrived at this figure in his book, “The Destruction of the European Jews.” According to Hilberg, of those dead, some 1,000,000 were Jews.

1,100,000 to 1,500,000 Sources for this estimate are historians Yisrael Gutman and Michael Berenbaum (later of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum) in their 1984 book, “Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp”; also Dr. Franciszek Piper, the curator of the Auschwitz Museum, writing a chapter in that book. This estimate was later also cited by Walter Reich, former director of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, writing in The Washington Post on September 8, 1998. The upper figure of 1,500,000 thus remains the "official" figure as now inscribed at Auschwitz, with the earlier figure of 4,000,000 having been removed from the memorial at the site of the former concentration camp.

1,000,000 Jean-Claude Pressac, writing in his 1989 book “Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers.” This is interesting since he wrote his book to repudiate so-called "Holocaust deniers" who were called that precisely because they had questioned the numbers of those who had died at Auschwitz.

900,000 Reported on August 3, 1990 11, by Aufbau, a Jewish newspaper in New York.

800,000 to 900,000 Reported by Gerald Reitlinger in his 1953 book, “The Final Solution.” This figure is notable, considering the fact that it reduces the Auschwitz death total from the 4,000,000 figure that was widely in vogue in 1953.

775,000 to 800,000 Jean-Claude Pressac's revised figure, put forth in his 1993 book, “The Crematoria of Auschwitz: The Mass Murder's Machinery”, scaling down the figure from Pressac's 1989 claim of 1,000,000 dead. At this juncture, Pressac said that of the new number, 630,000 were Jews.

630,000 to 710,000 In 1994 Pressac scaled his figure down somewhat further; this is the figure cited in the German language translation of Pressac's 1993 book originally published in French. Again, this is substantially less than Pressac's 1989 figure of 1,000,000.

73,137 This figure was reported in The New York Times on March 3, 1991 and was based entirely on the wartime German concentration camp records that had been captured by the Soviets and just recently released. According to this figure, of those dead, 38,031 were Jews. These records state that the total of all persons who died in the ENTIRE German prison camp system from 1935 to 1945 were 403,713. To repeat: a total of 403,713 persons of all races and religions was officially recorded to have died (of all causes. typhus, old age, measles, etc.-and execution) in the entire prison camp system over a 10 year period. Of those 403,713 a total of 73,137 died at Auschwitz. Of those 73,137 who died at Auschwitz, 38,031 were Jews.

And of course Frijhof Meyers alleged 500,000.


Then we must look at the '6,000,000' canard which began long, long before WWII.
Regards, Hannover

If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2531
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: Correction of Auschwitz deaths in 1989.

Postby borjastick » 7 years 1 month ago (Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:35 am)

If ever there was one concise way to refute the holocaust claims of six million dead, this document above - Number of alleged dead at Auschwitz - does it beautifully. I will stick this under the nose of the next person I discuss the subject with.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

User avatar
jimcp
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:06 am
Location: Rotterdam
Contact:

Re: Correction of Auschwitz deaths in 1989.

Postby jimcp » 7 years 1 month ago (Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:01 am)

Hannover wrote "73,137 This figure was reported in The New York Times on March 3, 1991 and was based entirely on the wartime German concentration camp records ".

There must be a general accepted method of doing historic research in the science called history. I assume that this method includes finding =written= proof. Otherwise it would be could be called archeology ( whatever ). Is that a correct assumption? Yet, all we have about the alleged gas chamber in Auschwitz are eye witness reports. That's a promising outlook for the revisionism movement. The number of 73,137 is very important, there must be more than a reference that the New York Times " reported about it "? Where can I learn more about this study?

I became interested in WWII revisionism through my research on 9/11. It can be proven scientifically that the media and the authorities told many lies about the events on that day. From there on I assumed that there must have been more successful hoaxes in the past if they were so sure to get away with it. Many mysteries surround the alleged Apollo moon landings and I found it amazing that at a certain point in time NASA was lead by Werner von Braun who had appointed 100+ ex Nazi scientists on key positions. History is exciting after all. To the point. It is often suggested that the New York Times has its own ( political, pro Israel ) agenda. I am somewhat surprised that the New York Times published the 73,137 figure. - Perhaps the New York Times was controlled differently these days?

User avatar
Balsamo
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:44 pm

Re: Correction of Auschwitz deaths in 1989.

Postby Balsamo » 7 years 1 month ago (Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:56 pm)

jimcp wrote:I am new to this forum, to revisionism and I am not a historian ( I am a programmer ), I hope that still qualifies me to ask questions on this forum. I watched Dean Irebodd's movie on the ( alleged ) Auschwitz gas chambers and I agree that proof by numbers alone should be sufficient to accept the revisionist's arguments. According to Wikipedia ( topic: The Holocaust ) 6 million Jews were killed, of which about 3 million in extermination camps with Auschwitz attributing 1 million. My question is about the revision In 1989 of the number of deaths in alleged gas chambers from 4 million to 1.1 million.

What were the figures before 1989? Did the total deaths go down from 9 to 6 million? or did the number of 6 million remain constant and was it the cause of death that was changed? What was the reason to lower the figure of deaths in Auschwitz? What arguments were used?

jimcp.


To answer your question, those two numbers have nothing in common. To make it simple, the 6.000.000 comes from the West and concerns Jews; the 4.000.000 victims mentioned on the first plaque (before the change) is from the Soviets. You would have noticed that the first plaque don't specify that the victims were Jews. According to the Soviets, the number of victims of nazi barbarism far excedes the 6.000.000...They have put the 1.5 million for Majdanek, the 4.000.000 at Auschwitz, etc...so for those camps only we already have 6.500.000...The change came with the collapse of the USSR...officially, as, in general, none of those numbers had been taken seriously in the West from the start.
But of course, the famous "6.000.000 - 3.000.000 = 6.000.000" sounds nice and efficient enough, even if it is based on nothing, you still find it on numerous "revisionist's websites".
So basically nothing change, except that no one no longer relies on Soviets propaganda...
Not that i give much credit on the 6.000.000 figures, btw...but at least it is not so exagerated if compared with other estimations ( they rage from 4 to more millions)...It is wrong to consider the famous 6.000.000 as a monolith...Hilberg estimation are 5.1 millions, Reitlinger is lower...it is just the symbol spread across the broad public...

User avatar
Balsamo
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:44 pm

Re: Correction of Auschwitz deaths in 1989.

Postby Balsamo » 7 years 1 month ago (Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:24 pm)

jmcp said
There must be a general accepted method of doing historic research in the science called history. I assume that this method includes finding =written= proof. Otherwise it would be could be called archeology ( whatever ). Is that a correct assumption?


Nope, as far as the assumption goes.
History is a multi diciplinary science which basically is founded on an accepted method for which 4 years of hard work is needed to acquire. History has a scientific pretention only from this method, not from the results it produce. It is human science not to be confused with exact sciences like physics.

The problem with the Holocaust, and the WW2 in general, is that those subjects have been judged before it was studied by historians. This confuses a lot of people, and especially Revisionists that tend to consider in this case (the Holocaust) that Judicial rules and historical methods are mixed, and have the same standards.
The problem is aggravated by the fact that the judicial conclusions, prior to historical researches, have been written in stone in some countries. This creates a scientific problem that never occured before.
There are only marginal movements - as you call the revisionsit one - that are dedicated to affirm that the Holodomor never happened, that the Turks were not massacred by the Russians after the fall of Sebastopol, that the Ottoman never massacred any Greeks (vice versa), that colonisation did not produced any Genocide among native Afrikans, or that pretend that the Khmers did not kill anyone in Cambodia, etc...Why ? because none of those were judged by an international Court. All those events are arguable among historians, and opinions will be different among them. What change is that regarding those events, it is legal, and more importantly no one cares.
In Belgium, there was a vast debate. If it is agreed that the colonization of Congo was brutal to say the least. No one would dare to write the various estimations regarding the Afrikan victims that range from 50.000 to 2.000.000...because no one likes to face its own shit...especially when it involves the Belgian royal family...Do you know or care about how many Afrikans were killed by king Leopold II ????????????

Anyway, Historians are there to try to light some corners of the dark with what they have on hands...and following the method to achieve their goals...

Bob
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:49 am

Re: Correction of Auschwitz deaths in 1989.

Postby Bob » 7 years 1 month ago (Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:36 am)

Balsamo wrote:To answer your question, those two numbers have nothing in common. To make it simple, the 6.000.000 comes from the West and concerns Jews; the 4.000.000 victims mentioned on the first plaque (before the change) is from the Soviets.


They have common at least two things, both were presented in IMT in Nuremberg, I am not aware of anybody who disputed four million figure and document USSR-008 was accepted as evidence, nowhere is stated that figure is not reliable or something like that. Figure is from report, not from plaque. According to report, number of exterminated peoples was not four million, but they allegedly exterminated "over four million citizens" of various countries in Auschwitz. In fact, there was no rule to explicitly say "we are accepting document as reliable and true" because the document was taken "judicial notice" of thanks to Article 21 of Charter of the International Military Tribunal, Vol. 1:

Article 21.

The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge but shall take judicial notice thereof. It shall also take judicial notice of official governmental documents and reports of the United Nations, including the acts and documents of the committees set up in the various allied countries for the investigation of war crimes, and of records and findings of military or other Tribunals of any of the United Nations.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/imtconst.asp


If you do not know what this means, here is Wikipedia:

Judicial notice is a rule in the law of evidence that allows a fact to be introduced into evidence if the truth of that fact is so notorious or well known, or so authoritatively attested, that it cannot reasonably be doubted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_notice


Basically, exterminationists can claim that this has not been taken seriously, no problem, but then = admission that Nuremberg trial was show trial where one could present any "not serious" or doubtful document as an evidence without objections from anybody. This excuse is obviously so silly that I am not aware of any historians who use it in their books, they describe it simply as an "error".

I am aware only of one man who said that figure is exaggerated, but on April 30 1945, quite early before Nuremberg where nobody said this:

Reading this telegram [from the Embassy in Moscow] in London on April 30, Paul Mason commented: "It is an odd telegram: read literally, it migh mean that 4 million were killed at the Oswiecim group (i.e. ? Os and Birkenau) but that is not what is meant I think. I think it means the records there allow this deduction to be drawn in respect of all europe; otherwise, the figure is certainly much exaggerated"[1]

[1]Martin Gilbert, Auschwitz and the Allies, published by Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1981 p. 337ff.



Balsamo wrote:You would have noticed that the first plaque don't specify that the victims were Jews.


As is generally known and claimed, most of the victims were Jews and this is also stated on new plaque "mainly Jews", so even when this is not specified on four million plaque, most of these peoples were allegedly Jews, this is claimed even today in connection with new revised figure when the percentage of Jews among victims is around 85-90%, and most of them allegedly perished in gas chambers. To claim that only minor part of this four million figure are Jews and the rest were non-Jews to "solve" issue of this high number is refuted since mostly and almost exclusively - Jews were exterminated and almost all gassed victims were allegedly Jews as is claimed even today. Revisionists listed some examples of agreement with four million figure or examples which totally agreed on this figure or figures of Jews only. Most of them are from Carlo Mattogno.

Szlama Dragon

“I calculate the number of gassed in the two bunkers and in the four crematoria to be more than 4 million. Other detainees working in the Sonderkommando were also of the same opinion.”[1]

Henryk Tauber

“On the basis of my estimates, the total number of people gassed in the Auschwitz crematoria during the period when I worked there as a member of the Sonderkommando was about 2 million persons. While I was at Auschwitz, I was able to talk to various detainees who had worked in the crematoria or the bunkers of Auschwitz before I got there. I learned from them that, when I started to work in the crematoria, about 2 million people had already been gassed in bunkers no. I and II or in crematorium I. Thus, altogether I arrive at a figure of about 4 million people who were gassed at Auschwitz.”[2]

Maximilian Grabner

"at least 3 million" up to the end of 1943 alone.[3]

“While I was in charge of the political department at Auschwitz, some 3–6,000,000 people were murdered in this or a similar fashion.”[4]

Rudolf Höss

"I commanded Auschwitz until 1 December 1943, and estimate that at least 2,500,000 victims were executed and exterminated there by gassing and burning, and at least another half million succumbed to starvation and disease making a total dead of about 3,000,000."[5]

Rudolf Vrba (Only his own observations in period from April 1942 to April 1944.) Under oath, he said the following:[6]

Q. Mr. CHRISTIE: You say 1,765,000, is that right?
A. 1,765,000.
Q. Right. Did you see one person being gassed yourself?
A. I saw 1,765,000 people walk into the space between Krematorium I and Krematorium II, Krematorium III and Krematorium IV, were in front of my eyes knowing that the space is absolutely closed, because there is no road out from there except coming back the way they went in,[815] and nobody came out from there except smoke.

[...]
Q. Well, then, how can you not remember from one day to the next what you say, and yet you can tell us what you counted forty-five years ago?
A. Because what I have seen with my eyes is firmly embedded in my memory. This means when I have counted 1,765,000 people, I saw them, but inside of the crematoria I didn't see.
Q. Yes. So you saw 1,765,000 people.
A. According to my count.
Q. Yes. They were Jews, though; right? Just Jews, according to the War Refugee Board Report that you tell us in your count.
A. That's right.
Q. So they weren't gentiles; these were Jews.
A. Yes.

[...]
THE WITNESS: I counted reliably at least eighty per cent of it [1,412,000], and at least the remaining twenty per cent of it was seen by Wetzler and most of it was seen by both of us.
Q. So you can double check the figures.
A. By many other ways, too.

[...]
Q. Is it your evidence that you kept a record in some written form, or is it all mental note?
A. To keep records in written form about murder in Auschwitz ---
Q. --- would be dangerous, so ---
A. --- was to ask for death.
Q. So you didn't.
A. No. I relied on my memory.
Q. Therefore it was all a matter of memory.
A. That's right.
Q. And the matter of memory was such that over the two years you could be sure of the numbers of trucks and transports.
A. Absolutely.
Q. You never wrote it down anywhere?
A. It was not necessary until I wrote this down, because I have special mnemonic principles that are simple, so simple that you might understand it, perhaps.


Rudolf Vrba´s affidavit[7]

"In summary, my statistics which were conveyed in April 1944 to the representatives of the Zionists Organisations in Slovakia were based on the following:
(a) On direct observation of the trains and the number of waggons.
(b) By discussion with those members of the transports who were not killed immediately after the arrival but kept as prisoners in Auchwitz Camp.
(c) By having access to data of the so-called economical Department which dealt with the property of the killed people.
(d) On the basis of reports of the registry office of the Quarantine Camp in Auschwitz, to which I had access.
(e) All these figure were checked by direct information from prisoners who worked in the gas chamber and in the crematoriums in Auschwitz and knew the exact figures because they dealt with the bodies of killed people.

On the basis of information collected and checked as stated above, my statistics were compiled during the war; they were a part of the material of the Prosecution at the Nuremberg Trial under document No. NG 1061.

According to these statistics, the number of people killed in Auschwitz until April 7th, 14944, was about 1,750,000 with a maximum possible error not exceeding more or less than ten per cent.
[175,000]

I should like to point out that these statistics contained data only about the people killed in Auschwitz in the period until 7th April 1944, and the figure which came out of my statistics did not include people killed after 7th April 1944, mainly Hungarians, who were not included in my statistics because their extermination was started only in may 1944, more than a month after my escape from Auschwitz. The result of Hungarian transports was about 400,000 persons killed, it would make a total of 2,150,000 persons killed in Auschwitz. Furthermore throughout Auschwitz were passed 400,000 prisoners and official statistics after the war have shown that from these 400,000 prisoners there existed about 50,000 survivors so that the death roll of Auschwitz would be near to the figure 2,500,000. This figure 2,500,000 is made up by the addition of the final value of my statistics in April 1944 plus the known figure of 400,000 Hungarians killed in May, June and July 1944, plus the official figure of about 350,000 registered prisoners who died in Auschwitz.

Consequently, on the basis of my calculations the final death toll in Concentration Camp Auschwitz was 2,500,000. I should like to point out finally that two years after the war in 1947, the Camp Commander of Auschwitz Rudolf Hoess, was arrested and tried by a Court in Cracow. Before this court, Rudolf Hoess who was in charge of the gassing of the arrivals stated that he was forbidden to keep any statistics about the number of people who arrived because he had to report to Berlin without keeping any copies of his reports. But as far as he could recollect according to his memory and opinion, the number of victims in Auschwitz was 2,500,000

Thus my estimations of the death toll in Auschwitz, and the estimations of the death roll made by Rudolf Hoess though made independently of each other and using different methods, were nevertheless in good agreement.[11]

I declare by Almighty God that this is my name and signature and the contents of my affidavit are true."


Vrba-Wetzler report[8]

1,765,000 “Jews gassed since April 1942 until April 1944.”

Olga Lengyel

"I have the figures only for the months of May, June, and July, 1944. Dr Pasche, a French doctor of the Sonderkommando, in the crematory, who was in a position to gather statistics on the rate of extermination, provided me with these:

May, 1944 - 360,000
June, 1944 - 512,000
From the 1st to the 26th of July 1944 - 442,000


[Total - 1,314,000]

In less than a quarter of a year [1944] the Germans had "liquidated" more than 1,300,000 persons[9.] at Auschwitz-Birkenau!"[10.]

[1] Deposition by S. Dragon on May 10 and 11, 1945, before judge Jan Sehn. Höss trial, vol. 11, p. 111
[2] Minutes of the deposition of H. Tauber dated February 27-28, 1945, before the Soviet Commission of Inquiry. GARF, 7021-108-13, pp. 149f
[3] Minutes of the declarations of Maximilian Grabner, Vienna, September 12, 1945. GARF, 7021- 108-34, p. 25. In this declaration the figure of 3 million victims appears no less than three times!
[4]Ibid., p. 26a.
[5]Höss´s Affidavit, Document PS-3868
[6]Rudolf Vrba under oath, THE DISTRICT COURT OF TORONTO, Vol. VII, January 23, 1985, pp. 1450, 1552, 1562, 1563.
[7]Rudolf Vrba´s affidavit, Israel's embassy in London for the Eichmann trial at Jerusalem , July 16, 1961; reproduced in Rudolf Vrba, I cannot forgive, Alan Bestic 1964, expanded edition, Regen College Publishing 1997, pp. 270-273
[8]APMO, RO, vol. XXa, Vrba-Wetzler report, p. 45.
[9] In fact, she spoke exclusively about Jews on relevant pages, on p. 82 (op. cit. note 10), she inform us: "However, the supreme specialty of Auschwitz-Birkenau was the extermination of the Jews of Europe[...]"; according to official historiography, summer of 1944 was the period of the extermination of Hungarian Jews.
[10] Olga Lengyel, Five Chimneys, A Woman Survivor´s True Story of Auschwitz, first published by Ziff-Davis Publishing Co., 1947, first Academy Chicago Edition 1995, p. 83
[11]As we know, this "agreement" between Vrba and Höss is nothing but pure fiction, according to Höss, figure of 2,500,000 refers only to his presence in Auschwitz till December 1, 1943 and it refers only to exterminated/gassed peoples, total figure till Dec 1943 is 3,000,000 according to Höss.


Some non-witness sources:

Miriam Novitch[1.]

"Of the 4,000,000 victims of Auschwitz, 2,700,000 were Jews and 1,300,000 were non-Jews",

Rabbi Dr. Moshe Weiss, Former Vice President Mizrachi-Hapoel Hamizrachi:[2.]

"More than 4,000,000 people perished [in Auschwitz]; almost 3,000,000 of them were Jews",

[1.] La Vérité sur Treblinka (The Truth on Treblinka), Israel, Beth Lohamet, 1967, p. 39.
[2.] "Yom HaShoah-Holocaust Remembrance", The Jewish Press, April 5, 1991.


All these examples shows that even according to Western sources, the percentage of exterminated Jews was on average around 80% of the total death toll figures, for example, Vrba gives some 86%.

The strategy commonly used among exterminationists, i.e. that there isn´t stated that all four million victims were Jews, is only an attempt to somehow solve this fundamental problem, but as is known, they allegedly exterminated mostly Jews, and most of the gassed victims were Jews, these two claims are accepted even today and this was claimed by witnesses too. All what exterminationists can do is to claim that non-existing approx. 3 million victims were probably non-Jews to somehow "solve" problem of this high figure of allegedly exterminated Jews in Auschwitz or exterminated Jews in total (about six million) , but as shown, this is only damage control refuted by sources which are thus not reliable from the currect point of view and this four million figure repeated among some so-called witnesses is nothing but convergence on falsehood (from Soviet and Jewish sources) otherwise one must wonder how is possible that allegedly independent witnesses claimed the same false figure. When these exterminationists deny that most of the peoples from four million figure are not Jews, they contradicts own sources. Another fact is that high percentage of Jews are also of Western origin like Vrba-Weztler report published by War Refugee Board Report in Washington which lists 1,765,000 exterminated Jews and at least 2,150,000 in total according to later affidavit of Rudolf Vrba who described his meticulous method and accuracy of his observations under oath. Is clear that percentage of Jews is very high and Jews consisted majority of victims even according to western sources, thus there is no way to solve whole issue like you, by claiming that this is of Soviet origin and propaganda not taken seriously, this claim is simply refuted by available sources.

Is it true that those who claims that 4 million figure are Jews are wrong, but the best what exterminationists can achieve are figures still around 3,000,000 from this four million using even the western sources, this is still some 2 million more than the current official death toll. You can lower it by 50% and you still have some 1,000,000 exterminated Jews who never existed and were not subtracted from 6 milion figure as far as I know.

Balsamo wrote:They have put the 1.5 million for Majdanek, the 4.000.000 at Auschwitz, etc...so for those camps only we already have 6.500.000...


5,500,000 is correct.

Balsamo wrote:The change came with the collapse of the USSR...officially, as, in general, none of those numbers had been taken seriously in the West from the start.


This is not true too as shown by Article 21 of Charter of the IMT. In fact, they claimed similar nonsense or even more in later years. Here are more examples:
9,000,000[1.]

8,000,000[2.]

2,000,000-4,000,000[3.]

[1.] Documentary film Nuit et Brouillard (Night and Fog), 1955, historical advisers were the historian Henri Michel and Olga Wormser-Migot.
[2.] French War Crime Research Office and the French War Crime Information Service, 1945, (Eugene Aroneanu 1945, pp. 7, 196)
[3.] Yehuda Bauer, A History of the Holocaust, New York, Franklin Watts, 1982, p. 215 of whom was "between 1,500,000 and 3,500,000 Jews"


Balsamo wrote:But of course, the famous "6.000.000 - 3.000.000 = 6.000.000" sounds nice and efficient enough, even if it is based on nothing, you still find it on numerous "revisionist's websites".


As shown, this is actually still valid if one uses figures from Auschwitz and Majdanek, but i assume that in the case of Majdanek, exterminationists will apply the same way of damage control like in the case of Auschwitz. In the case of Auschwitz (leaving aside that claimed figure is actually "over four million", thus even more) the best what you can achieve is probably "6,000,000 - 2,000,000 = 6,000,000"

Balsamo wrote:So basically nothing change, except that no one no longer relies on Soviets propaganda...


Which is not true and all what is needed is to read some basic works of official historiography. Since alleged extermination camps were under Soviet influence, is logical that they must rely on Soviet claims.

Balsamo wrote:it is just the symbol spread across the broad public


I think that the better word is lie when even according to you, "all" know that numbers are not correct, but they still claims the false figure among public.

Breker
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 765
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 5:39 pm
Location: Europa

Re: Correction of Auschwitz deaths in 1989.

Postby Breker » 7 years 1 month ago (Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:27 pm)

Here, here, Bob.
We cannot forget that the infamous "historian" Deborah Lipstadt promoted the 4,000,000 as well.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7262&p=53796

But then, in 1993 Lipstadt still believed that 4 million died in Auschwitz.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IMEL ... 22&f=false

B.
Revisionists are just the messengers, the impossibility of the "Holocaust" narrative is the message.

Bob
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:49 am

Re: Correction of Auschwitz deaths in 1989.

Postby Bob » 7 years 1 month ago (Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:06 pm)

Thank you, so:

Deborah Lipstadt

"Esentially this statement was correct. Of the approximately 4 million people killed in Auschwitz a minimum of 2 milion were Jews."[1]

[1]Deborah Lipstadt, Beyond Belief: The American Press And The Coming Of The Holocaust, 1933- 1945, New York: Free Press, 1986, p. 262.


As i have noticed, book is from 1986 or even 1985, it probably depends on edition. Year 1993 refers to later reprint edition.

User avatar
Balsamo
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:44 pm

Re: Correction of Auschwitz deaths in 1989.

Postby Balsamo » 7 years 1 month ago (Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:57 pm)

Hi Bob,
when you say

They have common at least two things, both were presented in IMT in Nuremberg, I am not aware of anybody who disputed four million figure and document USSR-008 was accepted as evidence, nowhere is stated that figure is not reliable or something like that. Figure is from report, not from plaque. According to report, number of exterminated peoples was not four million, but they allegedly exterminated "over four million citizens" of various countries in Auschwitz. In fact, there was no rule to explicitly say "we are accepting document as reliable and true" because the document was taken "judicial notice" of thanks to Article 21 of Charter of the International Military Tribunal, Vol. 1:


It's a very tiny point in common. As far as i know, the six millions were broadly used in the west and concerned Jews only, it was kind of "confrimed" by a hearsay from Eichman which did not specify the number of victims for each camp. It was said that 4 millions Jews died in camps and 2 millions other way. Of course, as it has been shown, this symbolic number was used all over the place in the press...there is iIRC even an american paper stating 6.000.000 victims of Stalin in Ukraine in the 30's...No further comment.

Because Auschwitz was in the Soviet zone, the Russians along with their Polish puppet were the only responsable for the "inquiry"...
Maybe i am wrong here, but the first trial dedicated to Auschwitz was in Cracow by the Poles (there you had all those witnesses testifying their 4.000.000 countings), and then later in German trials in which the number of 2.5 millions (by Hoess) was used as a base.

As is generally known and claimed, most of the victims were Jews and this is also stated on new plaque "mainly Jews"


Again, in the west only, and the fact that the Frankfurt court did not take it shows that the number was not taken into consideration.
And i am not aware of a soviet document emphasising the Jewish nature of the victims.

Bob quoted
9,000,000[1.]
8,000,000[2.]
2,000,000-4,000,000[3.]
[1.] Documentary film Nuit et Brouillard (Night and Fog), 1955, historical advisers were the historian Henri Michel and Olga Wormser-Migot.
[2.] French War Crime Research Office and the French War Crime Information Service, 1945, (Eugene Aroneanu 1945, pp. 7, 196)
[3.] Yehuda Bauer, A History of the Holocaust, New York, Franklin Watts, 1982, p. 215 of whom was "between 1,500,000 and 3,500,000 Jews"


Which is only a short version of the famous list presented by Hannover above and that comes directly from Faurisson IIRC.
Everyone is free to judge if this list is honnest or not. But a few things comes to my humble mind:
In my opinion the list is misleading because it starts from the highest estimations ( which was never made) to the lower which is of course the one of Faurisson, and presented to be backed by a NY times article.
Of course, if the list would have been presented chronologically, it would have lost its effect, and appears as it is a "pile of silly numbers gathered randomly from all over the places".

If one limits on the 3 estimations your chose. the fisrt one is the more symbolic.
"Nuit et Brouillard" directed by Renais in 1955 is more a memorial movie than a historical documentory. The famous 9.000.000 number comes at the very end, the commentator said something poetic like

Neuf millions de morts hantent ce paysage.
Qui de nous veille de cet étrange observatoire pour nous avertir de la venue de nouveaux bourreaux? Ont-ils vraiment un autre visage que le nôtre?


If the background shows Birkenau, in a way of a dramatic final scene. The "landscape" (paysage) is not defined in the text. Never is it said that 9.000.000 persons died at Birkenau, because it was not the point of the narrative of this "memorial" movie.
And yes Henri Michel and Olga Worsmer were advisers for the movie, (the same way Ridley Scott's "Gladiator" had some. That does not mean that any of them would claim that emperor Commode was killed by Maximus !, but yes he was the son of Marc Aurèle!)
But it is true that by that time French Historians ( at a time where the Communist party scored about 25% in France) accepted the 4.000.000 numbers from (Soviet Polish sources). And yes according movie the number of victims of "Nazi barbarism" was 9.000.000...but in TOTAL. Which only proves that Soviet sources does not lead to the 6.000.000 which was the question of Jmcd.

And comes the "French War Crime Research Office and the French War Crime Information Service" and the name of Eugene Aroneanu who in 1945 gathered tons of different testimonies from all over the place and ended up citing a bunch of different estimations from various witnesses...8.000.000 is the highest of course and is mentioned along many others...To present this 8.000.000 as if would have been a accepted and definitive estimation of the Report is...i let you judge...
I personnally never noticed the french crime research stuff used as primary sources except on revisionist websites though i wonder if anyone had read it or even had it in hand.

As for Bauer, i don't know, only that since 1982 he lowered his estimation...But i would not be surprised that he only quotes other's estimation...1.5 to 3.5 is not a conclusive one.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Hektor and 5 guests