German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew transits

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German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew transits

Postby Moderator » 7 years 1 month ago (Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:37 pm)

I've created a separate thread for this poignant post by astro3. It was somewhat buried in this thread:
'British Intelligence -- revisionists?'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2211

Thanks, Moderator1
astro3 wrote:German Labour-camps - the shocking truth

Here is a decrypt from British Intelligence, which was cracking the German codes, made in July 1942. I photocopied it from the Public Records Office, Kew (in West London, near Richmond):

V Labour and Industry
The shortage of manpower leads to a considerable employment of prisoners outside as well as inside concentration camps. There are constant enquiries regarding the trade of prisoners and evidence on the part of undertakings and firms of demand for prisoner labour.

On May 1st, LUBLIN can provide: 1200 clerical workers and students, 200 bakers, 150 butchers, 350 agricultural workers and 800 workers of various trades, total 2700. (85/7). On the same date DR. CAESAR is informed that KL RAVENSBRUECK disposes of 3 German speaking women horticulturalists and 2 botanists. (85/12). The transfer of 95 skilled workers and 180 unskilled workers to the GUSTLOFF works is arranged on May 13th at the rate of RM 5,00 per day and per prisoner for skilled workers, and RM 4,00 for unskilled workers. (60/8). KL DACHAU sends 18 prisoners to the Versuchsanstald fuer Ernaehrung und Verpflegung on May 15th., at a rate of RM 0,30 per day per prisoner. (70/8) 20 prisoners are required on June 22nd. For laying a field cable from ENNSDORF to MAUTHAUSEN (139/15). In KL FLOSSENBUERG, prisoners who are not fit for heavier work will be employed on repair work, and the finishing of children’s toys. (80/28). A demand for 30 to 40 prisoners comes from a cement factory (131/18). HIMMLER himself requires by 10 A.M. on May 27th. the number of glass blowers available in KLa (86/34); and canvassing of makers of musical instruments in proceeding in JULY (174/1).


At last it can be told: prisoners not fit for heavier work had to - finish off children's toys!

as I understand it, this was composed by a German and only decrypted by British intel.

Next to the numbers of different groups in the camps, that I've cited above (Russians, Poles & Jews) these comments were written:

Dachau: on 19 May, 18 prisoners to be transferred.
20 May 67 prisoners leave.
20 carpenters sent from Dachau to Mauthausen.
Auschwitz: A Pole escaped 13 May.
15 May Himmler expresses his interest in the tanning experiments.
9 June: Typhus, 18 out of 106 died.
Mauthausen: 4 May: a prisoner is shot in flight
Two lines of total camp inmate numbers were given: 9 March 5600, 2 April 5367 and the comment made: 'fall in numbers is presumably caused by separating off civilian Russians.' (They had decided only to count Russian military?)

I'd say these comments are a final nail in the coffin of the belief that these were 'death-camps' designed for extermination.
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Re: German Labour-camps - the shocking truth

Postby Dresden » 7 years 1 month ago (Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:26 pm)

astro3 said:

"I'd say these comments are a final nail in the coffin of the belief that these were 'death-camps' designed for extermination"

The Hoaxters will probably say it's all "code" language.

"Finish off children's toys" means "Finish off the Jewish children"; "Boil 'em down and make Bubble Soap out of 'em!" :wink:
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Re: German Labour-camps - the shocking truth

Postby Creox » 7 years 1 month ago (Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:27 am)

This is certainly vital and important information. The problem with the supporters of the Holocaust is it has morphed into a religion of sorts and is immune to facts and logic.

But...the more data one can pile up to refute their beliefs the more their dogma crumbles.

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Re: German Labour-camps - the shocking truth

Postby astro3 » 7 years 1 month ago (Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:37 pm)

That was from a document or collection of papers 'HW 15/65' in the Public Records Office, Kew. - the whole collection was only released for public view in the late '90s. This is absolutely primary-source material, but apart from Irving, Revisionists have not really used it (For example, Dissecting the H., Ed Rudolf, did not use it). The material was all top-secret British Intelligence data that came from cracking the German codes. I think the best thing any British Revisionist group could do would be to have someone type out all the stuff about the camps - its not copyright - and put it online. It mainly covers the year 1942.

It tells us about a whole lot of mundane detail about how the camps were coping day to day, and counts the numbers going in and out - as Poles, Russians, Jews and 'political prisoners'. From monthly data Dachau had about 40% of Jews in the first half of 1942 and Auschwitz somewhat less. Generally Auschwitz had more Poles than Jews (alluding to the main base-camp) with the number of Jews peaking at 12,000 in mid-1942. It gives numbers of Jews entering and often leaving as well. For example September, after analysing the figures we're told: 'therefore it is clear that the majority of the departures are Jews.'

It seems to me that departures of Jews are mentioned just as often as their arrivals, which you would not expect if they were being gassed!

I'd say it is perfectly obvious that the author(s) of these reports had no inkling of any 'extermination' process going on in the camps. Otherwise the details of people occasionally being shot and how many died of this or that would not make sense. But, on the other hand Irving (Churchill's War pp.548, 700-01) says that 'special treatment' was a code for extermination, no comment.

British intelligence has felt the need to apologise for not having twigged that the H. was happening until 1944. The article by historian Dr Nick Terry on this whole topic (sorry its not on the web, he sent me a copy) is probably the best thing on this 'conflicting Signals: British Intelligence of the 'Final solution' - I'm not clear if it's been published. That takes this line, of how come British Intel failed to realise etc.? Well I think its high time we had a Revisionist position TOTALLY IN LINE WITH British Intel in this area. Chaps IT WASN'T HAPPENING - after all why did British Intel not to want to 'waste a disproportionate amount of time listening to wailing Jews?' (Irving p.700) - but I digress. But, around 1943-44 British Intel capitulated and started believing the stories about soap, lampshades and 4 million massacred etc.

Here is Holocaust historian Sir Martin Gilbert saying how British Intel sadly 'failed to realise' etc what was happening: http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/holocaust/5114.shtml
September 1942 records executions: 'Executions are reported: a Russian civilian is shot when attempting to escape from NIEDERHAGEN. FLOSSENBERG is allowed a lorry and a bus to convey Polish civilians to a wood for execution. A prisoner is hung in HINZERT and nine more are shot.' That's the only report of such for that year. One could take the view, that such executions only took place when they were thus reported.

In October 1942, discussing the grand total of around twenty thousand inmates at Ausch., it says: 'As about 2,000 men in the total are always unaccounted for, it is difficult to be certain in what categories the arrivals and departures belong.' This throws light on the much-discussed proportion of inmates not registered or unaccounted-for, putting it at around ten percent.

October: the camp SACHSENHAUSEN evidently contains Englishmen as it has asked for an English interpreter.

November 1942 'the use of prisoners for war industries on a large scale is discussed below...the largest transference is the move of Jews to AUSCHWITZ for the synthetic rubber works. Another major movement is the transference of sick prisoners to DACHAU. Meanwhile typhus continues, particularly at AUSCHWITZ... 'the women's camp remains stationary at about 6500 because arrivals balance departures.'

the Dachau report for November discusses arrivals and departures, the camp total being around ten thousand, with 'prisoners being sent on war work to Ausch..' which 'removes all but 9 of the Jews'

January 1943 (last month) at Auschw.: 'The Bunawerk is still employing 2210 men of whom 1100 are on the actual work. Jewish watchmakers are sent to SACHSENHAUSEN where they are urgently needed. Typhus cases continue to be reported although strenuous measures have been adopted and 36 cases were found among the new batch of prisoners on 22 Jan.''

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Re: German Labour-camps - the shocking truth

Postby Kladderadatsch » 7 years 1 month ago (Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:30 pm)

astro3 wrote:The article by historian Dr Nick Terry on this whole topic (sorry its not on the web, he sent me a copy) is probably the best thing on this 'conflicting Signals: British Intelligence of the 'Final solution' - I'm not clear if it's been published.


Yes, the paper was published as . . .

‘Conflicting Signals: British Intelligence on the ‘Final Solution’ through Radio Intercepts and Other Sources, 1941-1942’, Yad Vashem Studies XXXII, 2004, pp. 351-396

and it is available for download here:

http://www.academia.edu/1193453

You have to use "Nicholas Terry" in the search field: just plain old Nick won't do for the old Nick.
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Re: German Labour-camps - the shocking truth

Postby astro3 » 7 years 1 month ago (Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:18 am)

Nick Terry's Argument
As seen in Terry's article, it starts by arguing that targeted extermination of groups of Jews was happening in the East, in the Russian campaign (which I believe is rather Irving's view), which might be the case; then he tries to slide over to arguing that some 'Final Solution' was also happening in the labor-camps, and as far as I can see that is just wishful thinking on his part. He is trying to claim that: 'British intelligence was largely hoodwinked in the first half of 1942' (p.382) i.e it failed to notice what was happening. Thus the typhus death-figures he tries to see as evidence for something more sinister at work: August 1942, Buchenwald reported 74 deaths from typhus, Flossenburg 88, and Auschwitz 6,889 men plus 1,525 women. The British Intel comment was, the cause 'is likely to be typhus, as typhus was rife in June.' Or was it something else? This is just when the Final solution is meant to have begun!

The August 1942 decrypt for Auschwitz said: 'On 5 June AUSCHWITZ is told that for political reasons they will not receive 2,000 Jewish workers [??], but on 17 June Jewish transports from Slowakia are announced. ... A message of June 9 says that 'Typhus dominates the camp: 18 out of 106 cases have died before 15 June; 22 out of 77 further cases have died before 22nd June.'
Then in September the message was 'For the first time returns are given for deaths of prisoners: the figures for August are ... - and Terry's figures are given. So that is a bit of a jump! Here is the comment given in the message (which I don't understand):
The AUSCHWITZ figure represents about 30% of the total given in the IPCC figures (see below); the cause is likely to be typhus, as typhus was rife in June (see last summary) and a policeman is suspected of typhus in September. Deaths must constitute a large proportion if not all of the "departures" mentioned in the GPCC figures, which total 5325 for 19 days of August. During 19 days of August arrivals total 4989 so that they nearly balance deaths. About half of the prisoners are Jews. AUSCHWITZ is said to be under a ban on 4th September. Deaths in BUCHENWALD represent a tiny proportion of the departures'

The 'ban' meant that inmates cannot leave owing to the Typhus risk. That tends to confirm that the massive death rate really is typhus and not something else as Terry is trying to imply.

(I don't know what IPCC or GPCC are) In August 1942 Auschwitz deaths were peaking at around 200 per day (see graph http://rense.com/general62/auch.htm, scroll down to bottom) and that gives the five thousand a month figure. Would that figure include Birkenau as well as the main base-camp? I'd guess so. That's why the cremation-ovens were all built, to cope with that 200 or so per day...

Irving's View Irving commented upon this huge typhus mortality: 'There was evidently a deadly epidemic raging at the camp, since a message of September 4 in reply to a request for a thousand prisoners for building the danube railway, stated that Auschwitz could not provide them until the 'ban' (Lagersperre) on the camp had been lifted.' (p.548)

Terry denounces Irving for this view (p.388, fn. 109), averring that he was 'trying to create a smokescreen around the existence of gas chambers, implying that, if that is what British Intelligence thought, then this can explain the overall death toll in the camp.' He alludes to Churchill's war pp.547, 700. I suggest Dr Terry is going to lose this whole argument; and suspect Irving's works will be known and used when his own has sunk into deep oblivion... which will serve him right for getting published by Yad Vashem.

the Numbers

According to Hilberg, up to 175,000 Jews had been deported to Auschwitz by the end of 1942. The actual figures show far smaller totals. They are given monthly, but here they are every 3 months:
..................Total......Jews.....Poles....Russians
January 1942...9884......191......9186.....2095
April............10242.....1296......8475......354
July.............16369.....6241......7676......153
October........16996.....7500......6470....... -
January '43....28350....11332....12646.........-
I don't see how you can have far larger numbers than these arriving but not departing, unmentioned in the monthly reports.

Terry's Axiom: 'the majority of deportees arriving at Auchwitz were gassed on arrival and never were registered in the camp; therefore, they did not show up in the prisoner returns.' (p388)
I've got two unicorns in my back garden, they don't show up to normal eyesight.

Well I hate to tell Dr Terry this, but there comes a point where Occam's Razor has to be wielded. If he can't show any dead bodies, nor a credible looking gas-chamber, nor any documentary instructions, etc etc, and all he has is just a vague hunch about high midsummer typhus levels, then his own students are going to start telling him about use of unverifiable conjectures.

We've earlier seen a comment about how the unregistered cases comprise only some ten percent of the totals. If they had been much larger, then no-one would have bothered to record totals would they? That is surely pretty obvious.

So that's about 35% Jews on average.

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Re: German Labour-camps - the shocking truth

Postby Creox » 7 years 1 month ago (Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:20 am)

which might be the case; then he tries to slide over to arguing that some 'Final Solution' was also happening in the labor-camps, and as far as I can see that is just wishful thinking on his part. He is trying to claim that: 'British intelligence was largely hoodwinked in the first half of 1942' (p.382) i.e it failed to notice what was happening. Thus the typhus death-figures he tries to see as evidence for something more sinister at work: August 1942, Buchenwald reported 74 deaths from typhus, Flossenburg 88, and Auschwitz 6,889 men plus 1,525 women. The British Intel comment was, the cause 'is likely to be typhus, as typhus was rife in June.' Or was it something else? This is just when the Final solution is meant to have begun!


astro3

Terry could be onto something IF multiple factors didn't also indicate there was nothing sinister going on. Just looking at the bigger items such as lack of mass graves, aerial photos showing nothing going on, lack of fuel etc etc.

Does the study of the Holocaust generally pick items out for review without the broader picture? or is Terry and the like just trying to find evidence in any place they can?

Thanks

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Re: German Labour-camps - the shocking truth

Postby borjastick » 7 years 1 month ago (Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:15 pm)

astro3 this is very very interesting and if I had the time and were able to get to London I would be happy to do the next phase of work. However I am confused over the designations of jews and Polish. The general position of the holocaust management committe is that the Polish jews were decimated in the holocaust. What are the designations that are applied here and how did they apply them. Surely one could be a jew of Polish nationality and in Auschwitz.

These records clearly show that inmates went in and out of the camp thus disproving the claims of mass murder on reception. Good work and a fine investment of your time.
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Re: German Labour-camps - the shocking truth

Postby astro3 » 7 years 1 month ago (Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:44 pm)

The report decrypted for October 1942 (HW 16/65 OS -3) describes events in September, when they are just getting over the huge Typhus outbreak of August.
The large influx of Russian civilians, Jews and Poles continues and it is reasonable to suppose that deaths from typhus are still high in AUSCHWTZ and probably in other camps such as NIEDERHAGEN and HINZERT. Concentration camp prisoners are being used in large numbers in COLOGNE, and there is evidence of a cutting down of outside commitments to increase the number of prisoners available for war work. A new camp is intended at DEBICA. SACHSENHAUSEN evidently contains Englishmen as it has asked for an English interpreter. Some light on conditions in Concentration camps is shown by the instruction that a visiting labour commission is not to be shown either “special quarters” (Sonderunterbringung) or, if it can be avoided, “prisoners shot when escaping.”

There had been a sharp fall in the inmate population, and what was that due to?
Auschwitz: ‘The total falls from 22,455 on 1st Sept. to 17,365 on 30th Sept. and to 16966 on 20th Oct. No figures for deaths have been given this month and therefore it cannot be said what proportion of the daily departures, which amounts to 2395 on 7th Sept, 1429 on 8th Sept, and otherwise vary between 550 and 47, are due to death: it is however known that at least 11 SS men have been taken into hospital on suspicion of typhus during October. As about 2,000 men in the total are always unaccounted for, it is difficult to be certain in what categories the arrivals and departures belong. But on 7th Sept. the numbers of political prisoners, Jews and Poles have fallen by 1, 2020 and 284 respectively, a net loss of 2305; the net loss in the total column in 2379; therefore it is clear that the majority of the departures are Jews.

That sudden drop of several thousand in inmate population was not due, the analyst concluded, to illness, but rather to a lot of departures, chiefly Jews. The analyst is looking at several columns of data to which we are not privy. Some ten percent of the total camp inmates are ‘always unaccounted for’ and that helps to resolve a widely-debated issue. With all the comings and goings in the labour-camps, about ten percent - which is here two thousand out of twenty thousand - remain unregistered. There surely cannot be tens of thousands of Jews continually arriving, as Hilbert wants his readers to believe, but rather a majority of the departures are Jewish.

No wonder the Exterminationists don't want to know about this stuff.

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Re: German Labour-camps - the shocking truth

Postby Hannover » 7 years 1 month ago (Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:22 pm)

astro3, on his game as usual.

There has been discussion about the hidden / destroyed outbound records from the labor camps. This confirms the fact that there must have been outbound records as we now have irrefutable proof of masses of Jews being transported OUT of Auschwitz.
... therefore it is clear that the majority of the departures are Jews.

Indeed.

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Re: German Labour-camps - shocking truth / Jew transits

Postby astro3 » 7 years 1 week ago (Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:19 am)

In August 1943 the head of the British Psychological Warfare Executive, Victor Cavendish-Bentick, sent a secret telegram, from the Foreign Office to Washington saying, ‘On further reflection we are not convinced that evidence regarding use of gas chambers is substantial enough to justify inclusion in a public declaration...,’ with an ‘urgent reply’ requested.
A copy of this message is kept in the Public Record Office, in the file PRO FO 371/34551. It is dated 27 August, 1943.

The next day, he explained why the whole gas chamber story - which the BBC had been broadcasting for the past year - was not believable, because it was just recycled atrocity propaganda! This was in a private memo:
the whole assertion of German extermination measures against Jews with gas chambers and so on has no foundation in fact and is merely a lie that we have spread against the Germans.

Gosh, fancy that. He further explained:
As regards putting Poles to death in gas chambers, I do not believe that there is any evidence that this has been done. There have been many stories to this effect, and we have played them up in P.W.E. rumours without believing that they had any foundation. At any rate there is far less evidence than exists for the mass murder of Polish officers by the Russians at Katyn.


But that statement supposedly made 28th August is not now present in that file (FO 371/34551), at least i could not see it there. The evidence for its existence comes from Robert Jan van Pelt in his 2002 opus, The Case for Auschwitz concerning the Irving trial (see pages 126,7). He says that David Irving first started alluding to these two decrypts, and then he van Pelt also went to the Public Record Office and saw the documents himself.
(Speaking personally, i was not really expecting to see the second of these two documents there, it would have been just too outrageous to have a head of British Intel commenting on how one should not believe 'they had any foundation' - ie the mass gassing stories.)

van Pelt is trying to argue that these notes do not have the fairly clear meaning which David Irving was giving them. This whole debate had been kicked off by Irving averring:
as late as August 1943 the head of the PWE minuted the Cabinet secretly that despite the stories they were putting out, there was not the slightest evidence that such contraptions existed, and he continued with a warning that stories from Jewish sources in this connection were particularly suspect.

That statement was made in his Foreword to the Leuchter Report 'End of the Line' which Irving published in 1989. So, I am far from clear when these top-secret government documents were released. Did they come out fifty years after the War i.e. the mid-1990s? Irving must have seen them before that. (He doesn't now have much memory about these matters)

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Re: German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew tran

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 1 week ago (Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:27 pm)

astro3

Are your quotations taken directly from van Pelt's book? (I looked in Google books but those pages are not available there.)

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Re: German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew tran

Postby astro3 » 7 years 1 week ago (Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:09 am)

Yes

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Re: German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew tran

Postby Haldan » 7 years 1 week ago (Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:16 am)

As for the Victor Cavendish-Bentick / PWE memos, weren't these discovered by somebody named Paul Norris? Didn't Irving say so in the first Zündel-trial? I'm sorry, too lazy to search it out with certainty right now. But I remember that David Irving spoke about this and that Paul Norris found them in the British archives. In Zündel's first trial in Canada, if memory serves me right.

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Re: German Labour-camps - the shocking truth

Postby Hektor » 7 years 5 days ago (Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:19 pm)

astro3 wrote:...
Terry's Axiom: 'the majority of deportees arriving at Auchwitz were gassed on arrival and never were registered in the camp; therefore, they did not show up in the prisoner returns.' (p388)
I've got two unicorns in my back garden, they don't show up to normal eyesight.
....
Yes, how does he know that non-registered deportees were actually gassed? Argument by ignorance?


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