German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew transits

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Re: German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew tran

Postby astro3 » 7 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:30 am)

Hoefle telegram

Probably nothing new to say about this, but here are two versions English & German from the Public Record Office
HW 16/66 January 1943
g) Norway The Reichskomissar has refused to allow a conference of the Germanische Landdienst or the recruiting of 200 men for a Ski camp. Instead a Wehrertuechtigungslager for 17 yr olds is proposed as a means of producing volunteers for the Waffen SS.
h) A.A. Courses The Luftwaffe is holding training courses for members of the Flakwaffe in the first quarter of 1943. SS. Pz. Gren. Div. “Wiking” is urged to take full advantage of this opportunity as new units with special weapons will be formed in the very near future. (356d9-15).
i) Einsats REINHARDT. SS und Pol.fuehrer LUBLIN sends the Befehlshaber der Sipo KRAKAU a report on Einsatz REINHARDT for the 14 days up to 31.1.42. Increase to 31.12.42: L127621, B 0, Ss515, T 10335, altogether 23611. Totals on 31.12.42: L24735, B 434508, S 101370, T 71355: altogether 1274166 (355a 13).

(NB, Lublin = Majdanek)
...................
Here is another version, HW 16/23 11.Jan.43 German police decodes
12. OMX de OMQ
Geheime Reichssache! An das Reichssicherheitshauptamt, zu Händen SS Obersturmbannfuhrer EICHMANN, BERLIN ... rest missed.
13/15 OLQ de OMG
Geheime Reichssache! An den Befehlshaber der Sicherheitspol., zu Händen SS Obersturmbannfuhrer HEIM, KRAKAU. Betr: 14-tägige Meldung Eintatz REINHART. Bezug: dort. Fs. Zugang bis 31.12.42, L 12761, B 0, S 515, T 10335 zusammen 23611. Stand... 31.12.42, L 24733, B 434508, S 101370, T 71355, züsammen 1274166.
SS und Pol.führer LUBLIN, HOEFLE, Sturmannführer.

..................................................
Wiki comment: The Höfle Telegram[1] (or Hoefle Telegram) is a document discovered in 2000 among recently declassified World War II materials from the Public Record Office in Kew, England. The document consists of two messages, one to SSObersturmbannführer Adolf Eichmann in Berlin, and one to SS Obersturmbannführer Franz Heim, in Cracow, sent by SS Sturmbannführer Hermann Höfleon January 11, 1943. It gave arrivals in the prior fortnight, and cumulative arrivals, for the camps of Einsatz Reinhardt (later more commonly called Aktion Reinhard) to December 31, 1942.

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Re: German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew tran

Postby Hannover » 7 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:37 pm)

Nice work from astro3 as usual.

The Hofle / Hoefle Telegram has indeed been discussed, at length. I suggest these for more information about the fraudulent claims made about it's contents.

'The Razor and the Ring, by John Weir'
http://codoh.com/library/document/364

'Irving's 'holocaust' lite / but what '2.4 million document'?'
viewtopic.php?t=4548

'Irving attempts 'rehabilitation' via the Hoefle Telegram'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4558&p=50552

'Grubach's Letters to David Irving on the Hoefle telegram'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4563&p=29296
excerpt:
I examined the English translation of the document. It seems to refer to large scale deportations. As of yet, I see nothing at all that says the people being transported were being murdered. It seems to say that there were only a large number of people being transported to certain camps.

This is all very consistent with the Holocaust revisionist thesis as presented by historians Carlo Mattogno and Jurgen Graf in their Treblinka: Extermination Camp or Transit Camp? and in Mattogno's Belzec in Propaganda, Testimonies, Archeological Research, and History.


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Re: German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew tran

Postby astro3 » 7 years 2 weeks ago (Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:23 pm)

Hoefle Telegram: Arrivals at Treblinka : 71355 or 713,555?
The Treblinka transit-camp started to function in June 1942. Six months later in January 1943 the so-called Hoefle telegram above-quoted gave two numbers:
1. It said that in the 14 days leading up to the end of 1942, ten thousand persons had arrived. That’s about seven hundred a day.
2. Then it said that altogether, ie over the last 6 months, seventy thousand had arrived. That’s about four hundred a day.
Those two figures are perfectly compatible. The arrivals had been increasing over six months, to the end of the year.

But there is a problem with the arithmetic, that the numbers given do not total 1.2 million as stated. Some have hopped to the conclusion, that therefore, the Treblinka total must ‘really’ have been 713,555 i.e ten times more, to get that figure.

That is a possibility. A lot of things are possible however. I suggest we are NOT obliged to accept this reasoning, in the absence of some further evidence or explanation.
If we did accept it, it would mean that the last 14 days’ figures at the end of the year were hugely less per day, than the average over the whole six months. That would seem illogical.

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Re: German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew tran

Postby Bob » 7 years 2 weeks ago (Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:45 pm)

astro3 wrote:Hoefle Telegram: Arrivals at Treblinka : 71355 or 713,555?
The Treblinka transit-camp started to function in June 1942. Six months later in January 1943 the so-called Hoefle telegram above-quoted gave two numbers:
1. It said that in the 14 days leading up to the end of 1942, ten thousand persons had arrived. That’s about seven hundred a day.
2. Then it said that altogether, ie over the last 6 months, seventy thousand had arrived. That’s about four hundred a day.
Those two figures are perfectly compatible. The arrivals had been increasing over six months, to the end of the year.

But there is a problem with the arithmetic, that the numbers given do not total 1.2 million as stated. Some have hopped to the conclusion, that therefore, the Treblinka total must ‘really’ have been 713,555 i.e ten times more, to get that figure.

That is a possibility. A lot of things are possible however. I suggest we are NOT obliged to accept this reasoning, in the absence of some further evidence or explanation.
If we did accept it, it would mean that the last 14 days’ figures at the end of the year were hugely less per day, than the average over the whole six months. That would seem illogical.


Treblinka was completed on July 22, 1942 and opened on July 23, 1942.[1]

The same figure of 1,274,166 deported Jews appears in the Korherr report as well[2]. Is it possible that Korherr´s arithmetic, or Heim´s, and Eichmann´s (recipients of the Höfle telegram) arithmetic was as bad as Höfle´s and nobody spotted this gross error? I don´t think so, the error is on the British side, just a typo.

Albert Ganzenmüller to SS-Gruppenführer Wolff on July 28, 1942:[3]

“Since July 22, a train with 5,000 Jews makes a daily trip from Warsaw to Treblinka via Malkinia[...]”


If 71,355 is correct, then altogether only some 14 transports to Treblinka and a large portion of them (10,335) were deported between December 18 and 31?

There is more evidence that this is only a typo, no doubt, the correct number is 713,555.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes

[1]Israel Gutman (ed.), Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, Macmillian Publishing Company, New York, 1990, p. 1482, p. 1485.
[2]NO-5194, pp. 9f.; Carlo Mattogno, Jürgen Graf, Sobibór: Holocaust Propaganda and Reality, The Barnes Review, 2010, p. 312.
[3]Raul Hilberg, Sonderzüge nach Auschwitz, Dumjahn, Munich 1981, pp. 178f.; Carlo Mattogno, Jürgen Graf, Treblinka: Extermination Camp or Transit Camp?, The Barnes Review, 2010, p. 275.

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Re: German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew tran

Postby astro3 » 7 years 2 weeks ago (Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:47 pm)

Bob, you might be right: but if trains were bringing five thousand per day to Treblinka, how come they only had ten thousand arrivals in the last fortnight?
Its quite hard for me to picture a train carrying five thousand Jews, are you sure about that? (Mattogno has generally less than a thousand 'deportees' per Eastbound train: http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/7.html)
Likewise to picture five thousand persons arriving per day, on a site that was merely 14 hectares or 34 acres ( it was about four hundred metres by four hundred metres square http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/1/Faurisson78-82.html)
Twenty to thirty German staff ran this camp, plus admin. Are you sure they could have coped with such a number of fairly hostile deportees?

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Re: German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew tran

Postby Bob » 7 years 2 weeks ago (Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:09 pm)

astro3 wrote:Bob, you might be right: but if trains were bringing five thousand per day to Treblinka, how come they only had ten thousand arrivals in the last fortnight?


In my opinion, because it was the end of the year, and generally, activity is reduced at this time, why not the deportations?

astro3 wrote:Its quite hard for me to picture a train carrying five thousand Jews, are you sure about that? (Mattogno has generally less than a thousand 'deportees' per Eastbound train: http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/7.html)
Likewise to picture five thousand persons arriving per day, on a site that was merely 14 hectares or 34 acres ( it was about four hundred metres by four hundred metres square http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/1/Faurisson78-82.html)


I think that we have to be sure about that because we have the documents and numbers so we must work with them.

astro3 wrote:Twenty to thirty German staff ran this camp, plus admin. Are you sure they could have coped with such a number of fairly hostile deportees?


I don´t think they were necessarily hostile, why? They were “only” deported, check the Auschwitz Album, peoples were quite ok, only a few guards, smiles, everything went calmly. As far as I know, there were also ukranian guards and etc.

Your described scenario is problem in the case of extermination story, then I am really not able to imagine it.

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Re: German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew tran

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 2 weeks ago (Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:38 pm)

Bob wrote:
astro3 wrote:Twenty to thirty German staff ran this camp, plus admin. Are you sure they could have coped with such a number of fairly hostile deportees?


I don´t think they were necessarily hostile, why? They were “only” deported, check the Auschwitz Album, peoples were quite ok, only a few guards, smiles, everything went calmly. As far as I know, there were also ukranian guards and etc.

Your described scenario is problem in the case of extermination story, then I am really not able to imagine it.

Indeed, I think this is one of the stronger arguments against extermination. Such a small contingent of Germans, plus the Ukrainians plus the Jewish helpers could easily have handled a transit deinfestation scenario. But could they have handled a mass murder scenario? I don't think so. In particular we are asked to believe that a contingent of Jews some 4 times greater in number than the combined German/Ukrainian contingent actively aided in the mass murder of the other Jews.

I don't believe they would have done this, but perhaps my opinion of Jews is higher than their own opinion of their fellows.

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Re: German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew tran

Postby astro3 » 7 years 1 week ago (Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:54 am)

Hang on, Bob. Thomas Kues writes
We know from documents that more than 700,000 – probably around 800,000 – Jewish deportees were sent to Treblinka II during its period of operation 1942-43.

http://codoh.com/library/document/1912 - in a 2009 'Inconvenient History' article, Tree-Felling at Treblinka. Is there a problem, here?
He is using your number of visitors to this camp, however your total has to be for the 6 months of 1941, whereas his is for 1942-3.

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Re: German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew tran

Postby Bob » 7 years 1 week ago (Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:10 am)

astro3 wrote:Hang on, Bob. Thomas Kues writes
We know from documents that more than 700,000 – probably around 800,000 – Jewish deportees were sent to Treblinka II during its period of operation 1942-43.

http://codoh.com/library/document/1912 - in a 2009 'Inconvenient History' article, Tree-Felling at Treblinka. Is there a problem, here?


I don´t see a problem, I think this may be right, total number can be around 800,000 when you take into consideration year 1943, as far as I know, transports in this period were less frequent.

He is using your number of visitors to this camp, however your total has to be for the 6 months of 1941, whereas his is for 1942-3.


Not 1941, but 1942. 713,555 is for some 5 months and 10 days, this corresponds to some average 4,500 to 5,000 deportees per day like in the document mentioned above.

Thomas Kues accepted telegram and its number 713,555 in his article:

After this date, the hundreds of thousands of buried bodies – at least 713,555 corpses – were allegedly disinterred and incinerated, together with thousands of “fresh” victims, on cremation grates made of concrete blocks and railway gauge with wood used as fuel.[1]

[...]

It is likely that out of the at least 713,555 deportees sent to the camp in trains[...]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes

[1]Cf. Yitzhak Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, Indiana University Press, Bloomington/Indianapolis 1987, p. 42, 81, 173-177. The so-called Höfle telegram discovered in 2000 reveals that 713,555 Jews had been deported to Treblinka up until December 31, 1942.

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Re: German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew tran

Postby Hektor » 7 years 1 week ago (Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:41 pm)

astro3 wrote:Bob, you might be right: but if trains were bringing five thousand per day to Treblinka, how come they only had ten thousand arrivals in the last fortnight?
Its quite hard for me to picture a train carrying five thousand Jews, are you sure about that? (Mattogno has generally less than a thousand 'deportees' per Eastbound train: http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/7.html)
...?
So there is records for inbound trains?
Were there any records for outbound trains?

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Re: German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew tran

Postby Hannover » 7 years 1 week ago (Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:15 pm)

Hektor:
So there is records for inbound trains?
Were there any records for outbound trains?

I've been making this point for some time now. The outbound records would necessarily exist, but have gone curiously 'missing'.

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Re: German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew tran

Postby Hektor » 7 years 1 week ago (Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:20 pm)

Hannover wrote:Hektor:
So there is records for inbound trains?
Were there any records for outbound trains?

I've been making this point for some time now. The outbound records would necessarily exist, but have gone curiously 'missing'.

And they should have existed even if the trains left empty.

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Re: German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew tran

Postby Creox » 7 years 1 week ago (Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:19 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:
Bob wrote:
astro3 wrote:Twenty to thirty German staff ran this camp, plus admin. Are you sure they could have coped with such a number of fairly hostile deportees?


I don´t think they were necessarily hostile, why? They were “only” deported, check the Auschwitz Album, peoples were quite ok, only a few guards, smiles, everything went calmly. As far as I know, there were also ukranian guards and etc.

Your described scenario is problem in the case of extermination story, then I am really not able to imagine it.

Indeed, I think this is one of the stronger arguments against extermination. Such a small contingent of Germans, plus the Ukrainians plus the Jewish helpers could easily have handled a transit deinfestation scenario. But could they have handled a mass murder scenario? I don't think so. In particular we are asked to believe that a contingent of Jews some 4 times greater in number than the combined German/Ukrainian contingent actively aided in the mass murder of the other Jews.

I don't believe they would have done this, but perhaps my opinion of Jews is higher than their own opinion of their fellows.


This is a good point and reminds me of Denierbud's video that shows one of the Jewish "extermination" commanders describing the killing environment. He describes two SS guarding the whole operation. The rest of the work was being done by Jews??? This is very hard to believe or am I missing something?

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Re: German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew tran

Postby chim-pa » 7 years 1 week ago (Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:26 pm)

Hektor wrote:
Hannover wrote:Hektor:
So there is records for inbound trains?
Were there any records for outbound trains?

I've been making this point for some time now. The outbound records would necessarily exist, but have gone curiously 'missing'.

And they should have existed even if the trains left empty.


Here is one document that mentions trains coming back empty:

Image

That document was mentioned earlier here:

viewtopic.php?t=2355

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Re: German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew tran

Postby Hannover » 7 years 1 week ago (Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:18 pm)

Why bother to post what we already have shot down, chim-pa? Why post a train schedule? ... it's not a train outbound document. The thread you referenced, viewtopic.php?t=2355 makes mincemeat of your innuendo. Why have you ignored the specifics points made in that thread and links from that thread? ... such as: http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/10.html

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