Questions For My Mother

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Balsamo
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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Balsamo » 7 years 3 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:44 am)

Armor105 wrote:Am I right in saying the Nazi's were actively encouraging emigration of Jews out of Lodz even in 1939?

Does anyone know what month in 1939 they began to force Jews into the Lodz ghetto?

Were they basically saying...either we concentrate you into a ghetto or you leave to the east?

I will respond to the posts here when I get back from work tonight. Thanks to everyone for the input.


Hi Armor,
and sorry for the confusion of yesterday.
It turns out that the polish campaign was not the first step of the Holocaust, but of course violence targeting civilians was extreme on both side. The Poles targetting ethnic Germans, the Germans the Poles and the Jews. But at that time, the Poles were the main target, especially in territories to be included in the Reich.
But there were enough killings (some estimations are 5000 iirc) of Jews, burning of synagogues, to convice a family to move.
Lodz having been integrated to the Warthegau (annexed), the Ghetto there was created as a temporary concentration of soon to be expelled Jews. Remember that the Warthegau was to be Germanized and made Judenfrei. So yes, you are right...Those Jews were supposed to be moved into the GG.
100.000 were sent to the GG which raised the opposition of Frank.
You family must have been among the 300.000 or so that could still crossed the new border with the USSR.

The Russians later chose to remove hundreds of thousands jews from the newly occupied regions, and yes indeed dispatched them into labor camp or factories ( most were transported to the east or were about to), and cities.

Strangely enough, the supposedly temporary Lodz Ghetto, the first that was created, would be the last to be closed due to its industrial efficiency...the charachter of Chaim Romkowsky, who ruled over the Ghetto, is very interresting to study (but that another subject)

Back to you mum and you family from where she was, she only could have learned about the faith of the Jews that were under German occupation only after the war...

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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Hannover » 7 years 3 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:01 pm)

Balsamo, you said:
It turns out that the polish campaign was not the first step of the Holocaust, ...

Please define "Holocaust". You posted it, define it. You cannot continue making statements and then avoid challenges to them.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Armor105 » 7 years 3 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:05 pm)

Balsamo wrote:Back to you mum and you family from where she was, she only could have learned about the faith of the Jews that were under German occupation only after the war...


I don't understand this. Please explain.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Balsamo
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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Balsamo » 7 years 3 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:18 pm)

Armor105 wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Back to you mum and you family from where she was, she only could have learned about the faith of the Jews that were under German occupation only after the war...


I don't understand this. Please explain.


Because you told us that

Went as far and deep as the Ural Mountains on the border of Siberia eventually arriving in the town of Magnitogorsk.


If she came back to Lodz in 1946/47, she could not have witnessed anything special (by that i mean her parents). The Germans never reached that place, she was like being in America so to speak ( in much colder and unconfortable conditions of course).

Hannover asked
Please define "Holocaust". You posted it, define it. You cannot continue making statements and then avoid challenges to them.


In the context of this very specific topic, i mean the Holocaust that you are contesting or denying, the official storyline, because that is the only answer Armor's mother can give, given her setting during those events.

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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Hannover » 7 years 3 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:22 pm)

Balsamo, stop dodging. Give us your definition of the"Holocaust".

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Armor105 » 7 years 3 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:25 pm)

I will ask her for more details on the trip but I'm guessing my mum's family went...

Lodz - Warsaw - Brest - Minsk - Moscow - Gorky - Naberezhnye Chelny - Ufa - Magnitogorsk

Over 3000 Km.

Must of been by trains right?
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Armor105 » 7 years 3 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:35 pm)

Balsamo wrote:If she came back to Lodz in 1946/47, she could not have witnessed anything special (by that i mean her parents). The Germans never reached that place, she was like being in America so to speak ( in much colder and unconfortable conditions of course).


Oh sorry...you meant FATE of the Jews.

You said faith, that's what confused me my friend. You're not a native English speaker are you?

Yes you are correct, I'm clearly not going to realistically gain any first hand information about the fate of the Jews in the Lodz ghetto from my mother, or even second hand from her older sister or parents as they were away from the arena for almost the entire war.

I think it's worth pursuing though, as it might be interesting to examine how my mum came to 'know' that all her relatives who stayed in Lodz 'perished in the war'.

Does she mean, her family found out from Lodz residents in 1946 that they were sent to Auschwitz...or Chelmno?

Heck, we could find out that some of her uncles, aunts and cousins are alive and well and living in Australia! But she's never bothered to look for them because her parents assumed all the horror stories about death camps was true.

Wouldn't that be great!?
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Armor105 » 7 years 3 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:37 pm)

Balsamo wrote:In the context of this very specific topic, i mean the Holocaust that you are contesting or denying, the official storyline, because that is the only answer Armor's mother can give, given her setting during those events.


You mean, the only answer my mother could have learned after the war right?

Because she couldn't know the fate of the Jews herself.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Occam's Razor » 7 years 3 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:48 pm)

Hi Armor105:

I've got a few questions for your mother.

Could you ask her to describe the living conditions in Magnitogorsk more precisely?

Ask her, if her parents told her anything about the journey to Magnitogorsk:

How long did the journey take? Days? Weeks? Did they stop for longer periods on the way?

Did they have to undergo delousing procedures? Like, all persons in the train had to take a shower and have their clothes deloused somewhere?

Same question about the way back to Poland.

What about conditions in Magnitogorsk?

You wrote that she contracted polio and dysentery. Were other contagious diseases a problem?

Typhoid fever or typhus (two different diseases)?

Has she ever heard something about typhus having been a problem in Magnitogorsk?

Does she know anything about delousing procedures in Magnitogorsk, that she and her relatives had to undergo while they lived in Magnitogorsk? Or on their way back to Poland?

Think showers, delousing of clothes, etc.

How exactly were they accommodated? Does she remember the exact type of house / barrack / building? Can she describe it?
Any type of provisional / makeshift / temporary or otherwise unusual kind of buildings they had to stay in for short periods of time? Can she describe them?

Did they live the whole time in the same building?

You wrote "She describes much hunger and hardships in Russia at that time."

Were large numbers of people living together in a small space? Crowded conditions?

Does she know anything about how many / or the percentage of the people who were transferred to the area of Magnitogorsk did not survive? Does she know anything about huge numbers of people who died from epidemics, hunger, and / or the harsh conditions during that time in that area?

I guess my questions might sound a bit strange, because I'm asking for detailed information on things that most people would think are unimportant. But I have specific reasons why I'm asking these questions. So, if you ask her, I'd be glad if you ask her these questions more or less as detailed as I'm writing them here.

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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Armor105 » 7 years 3 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:57 pm)

I certainly will pass those questions on Sir.

We have to bear in mind though, my mums earliest personal memories probably only start after the return to Lodz in 1945/6. She was about 5 years old at that time.

So we are mostly gonna be dealing with second hand testimony from her older sister and parents.

Thanks for the interest.

I'm still waiting on my mum for responses to my first set of questions. Will post back soon I hope.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Occam's Razor » 7 years 3 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:59 pm)

Armor105:

We have to bear in mind though, my mums earliest personal memories probably only start after the return to Lodz in 1945/6. She was about 5 years old at that time.

So we are mostly gonna be dealing with second hand testimony from her older sister and parents.


Yes, that's ok, I understand that.

What happened there during that time seems to be almost like a black hole, at least for western historians. So any information is important. Your contributions are very helpful and interesting.

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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 3 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:04 pm)

Armor105 wrote:I will ask her for more details on the trip but I'm guessing my mum's family went...

Lodz - Warsaw - Brest - Minsk - Moscow - Gorky - Naberezhnye Chelny - Ufa - Magnitogorsk
Over 3000 Km.
Must of been by trains right?

In Russia in the Forties, for sure.

Thank you Armor105, for this. As Occam's Razor said, this time and place are a huge memory hole.

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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Balsamo » 7 years 3 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:02 pm)

Armor,

yes to both questions of yours...and no i am not a english speaker ;

Another question, did you granpa or granma did have special qualifications or skills to be selected to removal by the Soviets ?


Hannover keeps asking

Balsamo, stop dodging. Give us your definition of the"Holocaust".

- Hannover


I am not dodging anything as i answer your question in my previous post. Again, one subject per topic is the rule, isn't it?
But i promise to open an specific thread about my perception of those events which will somewhat differs from what you called the "Holocaust storyline"...When i have the time
But you will admit that it as no connection with the "Questions to my mother".
:wink:

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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Armor105 » 7 years 3 months ago (Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:18 am)

Ok, got a reply back from my mum....here goes...

ME: - You said your family heard rumors that the Nazi's were setting up a ghetto in Lodz and they fled. Were there many families that did the same? When you got to Magnitogorsk were there many families there from Poland? Were there many Lodz Jews who settled in Russia? If you could put a percentage on it, how many fled Lodz? 5%? 20? 50%?

MUM: Yes, many went to Russia, all over, not just Magnitogorsk. eg: My class in Peretz school had 45 children and they were all born in Russia. That should give some idea.
About 85% fled the Nazis. 5% stayed in Russia the rest returned to Poland or other countries.

ME: - You said "My father left as soon as they settled to volunteer into the Red Army". Did all able bodied Jewish men in Magnitogorsk do the same? Did they all want to fight for Red Army? Were they called up or volunteered?

MUM: My dad did not volunteer into the Red Army. I made a mistake. According to my sisters account all able bodied men were forced to go in the Russian army but 90% didn’t want to and found various excuses to avoid conscription. For example: Uncle Moshe Aaron was 22 when they came for him but he escaped with the polish contingent called “Anders Army” through Kazakhstan or Uzbekistan but he was caught on the border and sent to prison. In 1956 he was taken to a Gulag in Siberia called Kamchatka near Japan. After spending 10 years there he came to Israel with a Russian wife Genia and daughter Rosie.

My father was conscripted to the Red Army but according to Baya, when he got there they didn’t take him because he had Flat Feet.! So he followed my mother and my sister and who was pregnant with me at the time, from Minsk to Magnitogorsk.

As for my Uncle Zelig, well, he and his family escaped to Minsk in the Ukraine, same as a lot of us. His transport train broke down so they had to get off the train in order to fix it.
After the repairs, when they came back to the train they noticed their son Fishel aged 5/6 was missing. The train was ready to go and they couldn’t find him so they had to leave without him.

The boy somehow found them 2 years later in Tashkent in Kazachstan. When they emigrated back to Poland (1946) then to Israel {1950}, a ghost writer wrote a book about his incredible journey which was published with the title (loosely translated) “ALONG THE RAILWAY TRACK”. As far as my sister knows it’s in Evrit. I haven't read it and I forgot to ask her if she has. But I’ll ask her and let you know the content. I’m intrigued myself. After the publication Fishel was interviewed on Israeli Television.

ME: - When the Germans invaded Russia in 1941 did they get anywhere near Magnitogorsk? Did they pose a threat?

MUM: When the Germans invaded Russia in 1941 their advance was stopped by the Red Army at the famous battle of STALINGRAD on the river Volga. Don’t you know your history son? That’s way before the Ural mountains and Magnitogorsk.

ME: - You said that one set of twins survived and were taken to America. Do you have more info on this? When were they taken to the States? Do you have names?

MUM: And now to my mothers side of the family. Her oldest brother Izzi Wasserman(Woziwoda) left Poland around the first World War 1914 or so for America via Germany. Her elder sister Rivka her husband and twin daughters – Hanna and Ita, also went to Russia along with my mother and Ciocia (Auntie) Bella – second older sister. In Minsk the twins parents died of typhoid epidemic in 1943 and the twins were taken to an orphanage. They were 12 years old at the time. A Jewish organization called Bond or Joint Association got involved wanting to take them to Israel. The Red Cross found out there was an uncle in America and got in touch with him and uncle Izzi took them to America 5 years later.

All those who repatriated from Russia to Poland came back between 1946 and 1956.

ME: - You say when you returned you discovered "most of the remaining relatives perished in the war!" What info do you have on this? Were they transported to concentration camps? Which ones? Was there any documentation?

MUM: Regrettably, we never found any information or documents of our relatives who perished in the gas chambers.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Armor105 » 7 years 3 months ago (Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:41 am)

Funny how, when you start to do your own research on WW2, you suddenly start to find out about events you never learn about in school.

I was just looking up 'Anders Army' and came across The 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland which I had never....bloomin'......heard about before....ever. It happened only 17 days after the German invasion of Poland from the West.

Quote from Wiki:

"The Red Army achieved its targets, vastly outnumbering Polish resistance and capturing some 230,000 Polish prisoners of war.[4][17] The Soviet government annexed the territory under its control and in November 1939 made the 13.5 million formerly Polish citizens now under its control citizens of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union immediately started a campaign of sovietizing the newly acquired areas. This included staged elections, the results of which the Soviet Union used to legitimize its annexation of eastern Poland. The Soviets quelled opposition through summary executions and thousands of arrests.[18][19] The Soviet Union sent hundreds of thousands of people from this region to Siberia and other remote parts of the Soviet Union in four major waves of deportation between 1939 and 1941"
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.



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