Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Balsamo » 7 years 3 days ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:52 pm)

Sorry, i thought i did adress this issue.

Here is a link to a google book - i would have loved to copy and paste the documents that are on page 70 and 73, but i can't.
On those pages are transports to and from the most suspicious camps. Now maybe you already know them, and already concluded they are fakes...i don't know.

http://books.google.fr/books?id=lGQbuSf ... e&q&f=true

Go to page 70 and 73...worth reading if you read german...

But if the liquidated Jews were just to be put somewhere in the east ( that is Ukraine or White Russia) why is it that those documents shows a transfer from Bialystok TO treblinka (thus westward) or to Auschwitz (even more westward) ? Why moving Jews that are already in the East, in this case Bialystok or Grodno?
If this document is to be accepted, it also shows that the train transports 2000 Jews to Treblinka, and then go back empty to Bialystoc...strange emigration process, isn't it?
This at least should be considered as a proper response to Bob request which was
Can you provide me with evidence for your claim that 60% of these people will lost their life and that was the meaning of that passage?


It depends. if you consider the documents showing the transport of 5000 tons of shoes from treblinka to Lublin, as well as all the other of the same type as fake, that you don't trust any legal judgment on those matter, nor testimonies...no i can't


Why can't this liquidation be “stood for their removal into the eastern territories” as Carlo Mattogno explained in one of his book?[1]


For a similar reason...where into the eastern territories ? He can find jewish presence in the east ( and no wonder) but cannot shows that those had transited through treblinka or Belsec...or at least, it is not confirmed by any document i am aware of...
So even if i cannot give a proof that would be accepted here, this document on page 70 make it even more difficult to prove any real emigration from the ghettos in the GG to the east.
If the linguistic interpretation has to be proven by fact, as i said, it is then valid for both side.
Can i challenge Bob on this question as he did not answer me the first time ?
"If Bialystock or Grodno are not east enough for the Jews to settle, where were the right eastern spot ?"

PS
To Hannover challenge, i still think that they are to heavy to be included into this topic about Goebbels diaries.
But as you probably aware of, my conviction is that the people sent to those transit camp were not to go further east.
As for the solution, i would speak of the problem, instead :The increasing Jewish presence in the German sphere...the solution was to get rid of them...but by 42-43 the available options were quite thin. And yes i am still waiting for an explanation about what the German's solution was in your view...Don't tell me about emigration after Kursk!

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 3 days ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:09 pm)

Balsamo wrote:It depends. if you consider the documents showing the transport of 5000 tons of shoes from treblinka to Lublin, as well as all the other of the same type as fake, that you don't trust any legal judgment on those matter, nor testimonies...no i can't

What would the average pair of shoes weigh? About a kilo? Women and children included. So 5000 tons of shoes is not too far short of 5 million pairs. That's more than five times the total alleged killing at Treblinka.

What are you trying to prove?

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Hannover » 7 years 3 days ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:37 pm)

You have not given us proof that the Jews in questioned were murdered, numbers of deportees are insufficient. Proof of murder is what is being asked.

Are we going to see real train records, inbound and outbound in your link? Or just alleged numbers supposedly from those records?

A revealing thread here:
'Germany / cash to former USSR transit Jews'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7350

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Bob » 7 years 2 days ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:58 pm)

Balsamo wrote:Sorry, i thought i did adress this issue.

Here is a link to a google book - i would have loved to copy and paste the documents that are on page 70 and 73, but i can't.
On those pages are transports to and from the most suspicious camps. Now maybe you already know them, and already concluded they are fakes...i don't know.

http://books.google.fr/books?id=lGQbuSf ... e&q&f=true

Go to page 70 and 73...worth reading if you read german...

But if the liquidated Jews were just to be put somewhere in the east ( that is Ukraine or White Russia) why is it that those documents shows a transfer from Bialystok TO treblinka (thus westward) or to Auschwitz (even more westward) ? Why moving Jews that are already in the East, in this case Bialystok or Grodno?
If this document is to be accepted, it also shows that the train transports 2000 Jews to Treblinka, and then go back empty to Bialystoc...strange emigration process, isn't it?


Firstly, passages in question from diary are dated two months prior Treblinka opening, so 60% cannot be killed in Treblinka if you refer to passage in diary as stated in my question. If you wanted to prove that this refute evacuation policy, then you based your conclusion on a few or several transports moving from the east as opposed to 1,274,166 sifted through transit camps to the east from General Government. Finally, Korherr report refutes your suspicion, he states that:

“2. Evacuation of Jews from the Reich territory incl. the Protectorate and Bialystok district to the East ...... 170 642 Jews”(my emphasis)


Or

“1. Evacuation of Jews from Baden and the Palatinate to France ...... 6 504 Jews” (evacuation not to the east, but to the west)


Problem of course is that nobody claims that extermination took place in France.

Here are some details about transports from the east mentioned by you from Bialystok, feel free to read:[1]

For example, people were sent to Treblinka or Auschwitz or Lublin from the East and for example they were registered in Auschwitz or instead of gassing in Treblinka, they were sent to Auschwitz which is some 500 km far. For example people from Bialystok were also send to Theresienstadt, for some reason they continued from alleged extermination camp, what is more interesting, nobody claims that Theresienstadt was an extermination camp. Also we are not dealing here with mass deportations which moved to the east, but with exceptions which do not change anything of course, as far as I know, nobody ever said that people cannot move from the east to the west for some reason and you based your conclusion on this wrong premise refuted by Herr Korherr himself.

Your suspicion - deportation from the east to camps/locations in the west = they were sent to be gassed or killed - is thus wrong. No contradiction with evacuation policy.

Balsamo wrote:This at least should be considered as a proper response to Bob request which was

Can you provide me with evidence for your claim that 60% of these people will lost their life and that was the meaning of that passage?

It depends. if you consider the documents showing the transport of 5000 tons of shoes from treblinka to Lublin, as well as all the other of the same type as fake, that you don't trust any legal judgment on those matter, nor testimonies...no i can't


Your response is appreciated, but refuted i think.

Regarding shoes, before I will move forward about this popular issue, can you please tell me - shoes prove that somebody was murdered or intention to murder somebody? Yes or No?

Balsamo wrote:For a similar reason...where into the eastern territories ? He can find jewish presence in the east ( and no wonder) but cannot shows that those had transited through treblinka or Belsec...or at least, it is not confirmed by any document i am aware of...


And these Jews were moved there how and why?

What is important, is confirmed that they left the alleged extermination site, what happened later is different issue.

Extermination is not supported by document, according to you - no confirming document for presence of people (from the transit camps) in the east exists and you have problem, I call this double standard.

Balsamo wrote:Can i challenge Bob on this question as he did not answer me the first time ?

"If Bialystock or Grodno are not east enough for the Jews to settle, where were the right eastern spot ?"


I am sorry, I used search function, but your question is not in this thread, for example word "Grodno" is completely missing in this thread. If your question is not here, how can I miss something what is not here? Where can be problem?

There were definitely places which were more eastward, no doubt, Korherr said it clearly and these peoples were obviously not send to the west to be exterminated:

“4. Transportation of Jews from the eastern provinces to the Russian East: ...... 1 449 692 Jews”


I must repeat my questions, you must probably try new attempt for the question 1 because your response was refuted I think, question 2 is still without answer.

Can you provide me with evidence for your claim that 60% of these people will lost their life and that was the meaning of that passage?

My simple question for you, do you consider as barbaric the aspects of deportation listed by me?

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Notes

[1]Carlo Mattogno, Jürgen Graf, Treblinka: Extermination Camp or Transit Camp?, The Barnes Review, 2010, pp. 286-288., p. 292.; I recommend you to read more of course.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Hektor » 7 years 2 days ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:06 pm)

chim-pa wrote:
Hektor wrote:If he meant killing all the 60% of the Jews he'd stated so by using the word killing.


And so he did (in German, of course).

No he didn't. The text says the Jews were to be shifted off to the East (Aus dem Generalgouvernement werden jetzt, bei Lublin beginnend, die Juden nach dem Osten abgeschoben). This isn't really difficult to grasp, if one reads the whole paragraph. You aren't trying to quibble on this one, are you?

Balsamo wrote:...
http://books.google.fr/books?id=lGQbuSf ... e&q&f=true

Go to page 70 and 73...worth reading if you read german...

But if the liquidated Jews were just to be put somewhere in the east ( that is Ukraine or White Russia) why is it that those documents shows a transfer from Bialystok TO treblinka (thus westward) or to Auschwitz (even more westward) ? Why moving Jews that are already in the East, in this case Bialystok or Grodno?
If this document is to be accepted, it also shows that the train transports 2000 Jews to Treblinka, and then go back empty to Bialystoc...strange emigration process, isn't it?
...
Because they would work in industries further away in the West?! Poland was a bit more industrialized then the Ostland I think.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Bob » 7 years 2 days ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:59 pm)

Balsamo wrote:Gosh...When one criticize someone "manipulation", it would be wised to leave it there and not try to do the very same thing.
Nikzor did not quote the first sentence, and that is a mistake; but when in the following sentence one translate ABGESHOBEN by deported, one falls into the same trap.

Abgeshoben is more like TO KICK OUT.



I forgot to address one error from Balsamo, certain exterminationists have no problem with the translation and as far as I know, nobody ever translated it like Balsamo, in fact, even exterminationists translate it as evacuation. I am still waiting for my copy of Lochner´s book so his translation is not included. (edit - now included)

Firstly, not “abgeshoben” but “abgeschoben”

Here are examples of translation of this word from various documents and sources + examples related to diary, official documents are included. Examples related to entry dated March 24, 1942 are blue:

deported [1], pushed out [2], evacuated [3], evacuation [to the east] (nach dem Osten abges(c)hoben)[4], pushed out, carted off [5], expelled [6], deported (im Osten abgeschoben) [7], deported (nach dem Osten abgeschoben) [8], evacuated [9]


Dictionaries:

deported, pushed out [10], deported [11], deported, pushed off, shifted, shuffled off [12]


The only terms which refer to the passage in question are - evacuated, pushed out, deported - these terms come from exterminationists and from revisionists. The same word is used in official documents as well thus translation as "kick out" is clearly nonsensical. I was not able to find translation proposed by Balsamo.

Balsamo is mistaken.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes

[1]Michael Shermer, Alex Grobman, Denying History. Who Says the Holocaust Never Happened and Why Do They Say it?, University of California Press, Berkeley and Los Angeles, London, 2000, p. 190.; Source for their quote is David Irving, Goebbels: Mastermind of the Third Reich, Focal Point, London, 1996, pp. 387-388.
[2]David Irving. Available online
[3]Thomas Dalton. Available online
[4]Workplace Criminalistics and Defense International to United States Sentencing Commission, Huston, Texas, August, 2003, p. 16.
[5]Thomas Dalton. Available online
[6]Thomas Dalton. Available online
[7]Christopher R. Browning, Evidence for the Implementation of the Final Solution, Chapter V.-A- Documentary Evidence for the emergence of a program to kill the Jews of Europe, Introduced as evidence in introduced in evidence during the libel case before the Queen’s Bench Division, Royal Courts of Justice, Strand, London, David John Cawdell Irving vs. (1) Penguin Books Limited, (2) Deborah E. Lipstadt, ref. 1996 I. No. 1113, 2001.; Available online; Passage comes from official document.
[8]Carlo Mattogno, Jürgen Graf, Thomas Kues Sobibór: Holocaust Propaganda and Reality, The Barnes Review, 2010, p. 209.; Note by Fritz Rademacher from the Foreign Ministry, NG-5770.
[9]Louis P. Lochner, The Goebbels Diaries, Hamish Hamilton, London, 1948, p. 102.
[10]Available online
[11]Available online
[12]Available online
Last edited by Bob on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Hektor » 7 years 2 days ago (Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:29 am)

Abschieben, abgeschoben, Abschiebung are general terms for deporting someone in German. If someone leaves this away in order to make the killing thesis more plausible then he is deceiving his audience.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Bob » 7 years 2 days ago (Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:15 am)

Regarding chim-pa´s quote from Browning and his fictional story addressed here onwards, I would like to add relevant entry from the diary dated March 29, 1942:[1]

“In large part the Jews are once again being evacuated (evakuiert) from Berlin. About one thousand per week are shipped (verfrachtet) to the East.”


Thus again, Browning´s unfounded invention is contradicted by Göbbels, German/Berlin Jews were according to him once again evacuated to the East and not "put on ice" in ghettos in Poland where they allegedly waited to be murdered later in alleged death camps because their too much early murdering made "some people upset" as opposed to their later murdering. I must say that this invention from Browning is especially ridiculous and absurd.

Possible objection that "the East" means Poland (or General Government) does not hold much water in the respect to this entry and to other entries already provided in this thread.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes

[1]Thomas Dalton, Goebbels on the Jews, Part 2. Available online

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Hektor » 7 years 2 days ago (Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:08 am)

Does anyone know where an accurate transcript of the diaries can be downloaded?

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Hannover » 7 years 1 day ago (Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:48 pm)

Balsamo asks:
But if the liquidated Jews were just to be put somewhere in the east ( that is Ukraine or White Russia) why is it that those documents shows a transfer from Bialystok TO treblinka (thus westward) or to Auschwitz (even more westward) ? Why moving Jews that are already in the East, in this case Bialystok or Grodno?
If this document is to be accepted, it also shows that the train transports 2000 Jews to Treblinka, and then go back empty to Bialystoc...strange emigration process, isn't it?

If these records are credible, sending Jews from Bialystok TO Treblinka supports the Revisionist position. As Hektor has noted, the labor needs in the more industrialized west certainly required, well, more labor as the war progressed. And Jews being sent back towards the west from the east means that these Jews had earlier been sent east. Returning empty simply means 1.: the train had deposited the workers where they were needed and returned to it original destination, or 2.: the train initially left empty until it picked up more cargo on it's return trip. It doesn't necessarily mean that it returned to it's original site empty, though it may have.

Once again, no proof of mass murder.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Reviso » 5 years 7 months ago (Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:06 pm)

Did you know that, according to Christopher Browning, Goebbels (whose departments were not present at Wannsee) received a copy of the Wannsee protocol different from the copy furnished to the Nuremberg Tribunal by Robet Kempner (the same Jewish prosecutor who stole Rosenberg's diary) ?
Browning writes : "It would appear that Goebbels received an expurgated version of the protocol only much later. He noted in his diary entry of March 7, 1942, concerning a report "from the SD and police regarding the final solution of the Jewish question." He noted the Wannsee Conference figure of 11 million Jews in Europe and then wrote: "They will have to be concentrated later, to begin with, in the East; possibly an island, such as Madagascar can be assigned to them after the war." "(Christopher R. Browning, ''Evidence for the Implementation of the Final Solution'', Lewis H. Beck Center for Electronic Collections and Services, Emory University Atlanta, GA 540 Asbury Circle Woodruff Library Atlanta, GA 30322, here :
http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/defense/browning/info.html

Was the version received by Goebbels expurgated or was the version "discovered" by Kempner doctored ?
R.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Hannover » 5 years 7 months ago (Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:28 pm)

Reviso,
Here's a nice takedown of the Wannsee Conference canard:
Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

The tide is turning.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Hektor » 5 years 7 months ago (Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:42 am)

Is that the Wannsee Protocol were the main participant Reinhard Heydrich isn't mentioned in the participants list, but then immediately mentioned on the text page?
http://www.ghwk.de/fileadmin/user_uploa ... ar1942.pdf

Scroll down and you see what I mean.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby fountainhead » 5 years 3 months ago (Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:19 pm)

I think it's safe to say the 60% liquidated vs. 40% quote from Goebbels can still be interpreted to support the revisionist case. 40% fit for work in the camps, 60% kicked out of Europe and into the East or perhaps 60% perish from various causes during the brutal deportation.

But I'm curious how revisionists interpret this entry which I quote from Nizkor:
May 15, 1942 (p. 214)

A report from Paris informs me that a number of those who staged the last acts of terror have been found. About 99 per cent of them are eastern Jews [Ostjuden]. A more rigorous regime is now to be applied to these Jews. As far as I am concerned, it would be best if we either evacuated or liquidated all eastern Jews still remaining in Paris. By nature and race they will always be our natural enemies anyway. (My emphasis)

[By eastern Jews (Ostjuden) are chiefly meant the Jews from Galicia and Poland.]


So in this case we have "evacuated" and "liquidated" used in the same sentence and presented as two distinct outcomes for the Jews in question. Doesn't this mean revisionists cannot assume "liquidate" means "evacuate"? I'm not familiar with the subtleties of the German language, but could he possibly have meant "evacuate" to the concentration camps and "liquidate" to the East?

All this assumes, of course, that the diaries are genuine.
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Who controls the present controls the past.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby hermod » 5 years 3 months ago (Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:51 pm)

fountainhead wrote:I think it's safe to say the 60% liquidated vs. 40% quote from Goebbels can still be interpreted to support the revisionist case. 40% fit for work in the camps, 60% kicked out of Europe and into the East or perhaps 60% perish from various causes during the brutal deportation.

But I'm curious how revisionists interpret this entry which I quote from Nizkor:
May 15, 1942 (p. 214)

A report from Paris informs me that a number of those who staged the last acts of terror have been found. About 99 per cent of them are eastern Jews [Ostjuden]. A more rigorous regime is now to be applied to these Jews. As far as I am concerned, it would be best if we either evacuated or liquidated all eastern Jews still remaining in Paris. By nature and race they will always be our natural enemies anyway. (My emphasis)

[By eastern Jews (Ostjuden) are chiefly meant the Jews from Galicia and Poland.]



It makes no sense to interpret isolated quotes. It's like interpreting the movie "Fight Club" without watching the final 20 minutes.

Read this: http://codoh.com/library/series/3110/ (also here: http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... e_jews.php - http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... jews_2.php)

In those articles, Thomas Dalton gathered all the quotes about Jews in Goebbels' diaries. If you read the whole thing, you'll see that Goebbels was a rabid antisemite who wished the physical liquidation of Europe's Jews (nothing new) and his most sinister quotes (the ones quoted ad nauseam by websites such as nizkor) don't describe what the Nazis were doing to the Jews (but what he wished). The quote above illustrates this very well ("as far as I am concerned", "it would be best").
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915


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