Transits through Chelmno

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Hannover
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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Hannover » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:10 pm)

Rankweil & armor105,

I also notice that neither of you has stated the total you think were sent to Chelmno. Please do.

Mattogno presents quite a few, varied examples to support the transit camp position, you ignore them, why?

Mattogno does mention the existence or railway records out of Lodz, so where are the records out of Chelmno?

You two can deny the sources Mattogno uses, which is no small feat in research, but that is your problem. If proof that Jews were sent directly from Lodz to sites other than Chelmno is shown, then the entire storyline falls apart. Lies in one part of the storyline necessarily means the entire story is nothing more than 'garbage in, garbage out', aka: zero credibility.

As I have stated, since Chelmno was just a stop over point, there is no need to look for "survivors" of a stop over point, to claim so is almost humorous.

And then I must go back to the absurd claim of Chelmno exterminations, which is the heart of the entire matter. Perhaps you wish to avoid the absurdity of such claims, but one has to wonder why. Exposing the extermination nonsense is the where the truth lies. It can logically be stated that with the laughable allegations of 'gas vans', 'exterminations', etc. at Chelmno thoroughly refuted, the rest of this exercise is pointless. Rather like: "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Rankweil » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:40 pm)

And again, Hannover, I think you're missing the point.

I'm pretty sure the records show 150,000 were sent to Chelmno.

I understand what Mattogno presents and I'm not denying any of it. What he does not present is testimony of anyone saying it was a transit camp. Nor does he provide any train records out of Chelmno. Yes, we have records from Lodz to Chelmno. Why we don't have them after that point I don't know.

So what I'm saying is that I don't think Mattogno's evidence is sufficient to convince someone who's been told the standard tale.

NOr do I think that it's true that one lie means everything is a lie, and as I stated before it's also important to recognize that no survivors of CHelmno say it was a transit camp. Three survivors total and they all said it was a death camp. I'm not saying they're telling the truth. I'm saying it would be nice to have one person saying something different and we don't.

You might consider these things to be thoroughly refuted. I can assure you the majority of people don't consider it to be.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Hannover » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:09 pm)

You might consider these things to be thoroughly refuted. I can assure you the majority of people don't consider it to be.

So what else is new when it comes exposing a taboo, exposing a form of irrational religion? It's only because they haven't been exposed to Revisionist research presented on a level playing field. You are simply talking about getting the peoples' attention. The fact that no one can show that these Jews were murdered makes the standard storyline untenable in the long run, hence the arrest of those who dare to voice an opinion to the contrary. The Revisionist position in the long cannot fail, truth has a way of coming out. Think of what we now know about officially sanctioned belief in witchcraft, trials for witchcraft, witchcraft confessions & eyewitnesses to it, Pearl Harbor, or the Gulf of Tonkin non-incident. The 'holocaust' storyline is so very vulnerable simply due to it being false. It will take time to win over the indoctrination.

So, we have Mattogno showing that Jews were settled in the east, curiously missing outbound railway records, a debunking of the alleged Chelmno 'extermination' process & alleged mass murder weapons. And the fact that the other absurdly named 'death' camps have been debunked as well. I'll take the Revisionist side of the argument any day.

And then there is this:
Joseph Bühler at Nuremberg: 'resettle Jews in Russia'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7469

I'm curious why you are so interested in Chelmno. Are you saying that you accept the Revisionist position on the other sites, but somehow think Chelmno is an exception?

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Rankweil » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:55 pm)

I'm saying I accept the revisionist position across the board but it's much more compelling for the AR camps (except Belzec), Maidanek and Auschwitz. The evidence (our evidence) is comparatively slim for Belzec and CHlemno.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Hannover » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:35 pm)

Rankweil wrote:I'm saying I accept the revisionist position across the board but it's much more compelling for the AR camps (except Belzec), Maidanek and Auschwitz. The evidence (our evidence) is comparatively slim for Belzec and CHlemno.

Aren't you really asking for something illogical, asking Revisionists to prove a negative when in fact the profiteers have never proven that Jews were exterminated at Chelmno?
Tell me what "evidence" they have that you find troublesome?

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Rankweil » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:51 pm)

OK I'll repeat myself. Here's what I find problematic about Chelmno. As opposed to dozens of survivors of Treblinka and Sobibor and maybe hundreds of Auschwitz and Maidanek there are only three that have been identified from Chelmno. That's a big problem when we know at least 150,000 were deported there. Add to that a lack of outbound train records and that doesn't leave a lot for us to make our case. On top of that, Muehlenkampf claims that those 150,000 bodies are in the grave there.

Now put yourself in the shoes of some guy on the street. We say it was a transit camp because it was a transit camp. They say it was an extermination camp. The guy on the street asks for our evidence. Muhlenkampf trots out his 150,000 bodies in a mass grave and inbound train records and only three survivors. We pull out what? A couple of documents?

Are you not able to see this problem? Without witnesses to it being a transit camp and/or survivors, the case we make comparatively is weak. I'm not in this to lose, Hannover. But I know that to win requires much more than what we have, at least on Chelmno and Belzec.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Hannover » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:30 pm)

Rankweil wrote:OK I'll repeat myself. Here's what I find problematic about Chelmno. As opposed to dozens of survivors of Treblinka and Sobibor and maybe hundreds of Auschwitz and Maidanek there are only three that have been identified from Chelmno. That's a big problem when we know at least 150,000 were deported there. Add to that a lack of outbound train records and that doesn't leave a lot for us to make our case. On top of that, Muehlenkampf claims that those 150,000 bodies are in the grave there.

Now put yourself in the shoes of some guy on the street. We say it was a transit camp because it was a transit camp. They say it was an extermination camp. The guy on the street asks for our evidence. Muhlenkampf trots out his 150,000 bodies in a mass grave and inbound train records and only three survivors. We pull out what? A couple of documents?

Are you not able to see this problem? Without witnesses to it being a transit camp and/or survivors, the case we make comparatively is weak. I'm not in this to lose, Hannover. But I know that to win requires much more than what we have, at least on Chelmno and Belzec.

No, it's me who keeps repeating himself. Read the thread.
Again:
Of course there is no outbound records, they've been dumped.

Chelmno was a transit camp, of course there are no Jews claiming to be "survivors". Survived what, a stop over at Chelmno?

We know people were sent /"deported" there to be re-routed according to German labor needs just like Mattogno says.

Three "survivors" or three communist liars? What were their exact, verbatim statements? Where were their statements given? Were they cross examined? If so, give us the verbatim cross examination text.

The guy on the street will ask, 'What proof for extermination do they have'?

Give me the proof for the ridiculous 'gas vans'.

What mass grave of 150,000? Show us the excavation of this "mass grave".

Now we're getting somewhere.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Rankweil » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:37 pm)

Have you ever actually discussed these matters with a believer? How far do you get what that particular set of tactics? Far, I bet.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Rankweil » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:52 pm)

By the way, I don't think you're going to win any converts by putting quotation marks around the word deported. If they were from Poland and ended up in Russia against their will, weren't they deported?

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:31 pm)

Hannover,

You have clearly been at this a long time. You have covered pretty much every area of the revisionist position. Hats off to you sir. You've done well. A soldier for truth.

However, as a new guy coming into this forum (and I'm sure there will be many more to come) it's a bit intimidating when you try and cover ground that maybe isn't included in the revisionist position, and you get forum veterans hopping all over you and being aggressive and jumping to (wrong) conclusions about the new guys position on the holocaust in general.

All Rankweil is asking is, do we have such and such specific evidence. That's all. He's not challenging you, he's not trying to loosen any ones stance. He's obviously been debating with believers, and the topic of Chelmno and Belzec have come up and he wants some good solid irrefutable ammo to shoot over at them about what happened to Jews who transited through Chelmno.

Yes, the points you make about Chelmno in general are overwhelmingly in favour of the revisionist side.
The exterminations cannot have happened how they said.
But..
It would just be nice to have something that tells us what happened to Jews who have definately been to Chelmno.

Like I said before, you could just say....we don't have the documentation on that specific issue. You might even admit that the lack of documentation on that specific issue is not helpful to the revisionist position. No shame in that.

Sir, I guess I'm trying to say....respectfully...as a person who might be considered a veteran leader type figure on CODOH, maybe you could try and be just a little less defensive and uppity with new members and more kinda...uhm....nurturing and understanding?

New members often have new angles on the old theme. Iron sharpens iron and they should be encouraged to ask questions and attempt genuine original studies.
If it turns out that you know full well that the "original" studies the new member is attempting is actually futile...then you can just tell him that.
Yes, it may actually look like an admission of sorts. We don't have that info, it would be nice if we did...and we've tried to find it...honest...but its just not there.

Anyway, I absolutely respect your knowledge and work on this subject. I hope you take this as constructive.

Armor.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Hannover » 6 years 11 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:27 pm)

Thanks for the words, Armor.

I understand the position you both take, but I think it's very illogical. It's rather like this scenario:

A man is accused of murder.
Why? Because someone is allegedly missing.
The accused says 'I didn't murder the allegedly missing person'.
The accuser then asks: 'If you didn't kill that person, then where are they?


Say what? It would be laughed out of a legit court of law.

In all my many, many discussions with people, the quickest way to silence their received history, and to get them thinking, is simply to ask them to produce verifiable proof for the claims of extermination. IOW, cut to the chase. 'Where are the alleged mass graves' is a game changer. In this case, 'How do you gas masses of people with diesel engines?' Use of science and logic stops them cold. They might resent it, but hey, that's their problem, They are never the same afterwards.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:55 pm)

Hannover wrote:Thanks for the words, Armor.

I understand the position you both take, but I think it's very illogical.


My friend, its not a position that we are taking.

Our position is not "the revisionist case for Chelmno lacks documentation/witnesses as evidence for outbound Jews from the Chelmn camp who went on and settled in other places....alive, therefore they may have been killed there".

No this is not our position.

We don't have a position, we have a question.

The question is....Is there documentation/witnesses as evidence for outbound Jews from the Chelmno camp who went on and settled in other places?

It's just a question.

From my own research, the answer is....no.

What about you? What's your answer my good man?
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Rankweil » 6 years 11 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:04 pm)

I think trying to argue the revisionist version of events like lawyers is a loosing game. History isn't a courtroom even if it should be.'

I've also seen the mass graves debate and I find it equally troubling with regard to Belzec and Chelmno. Again, Majdanek, Auschwitz, Treblinka, and Sobibor haven't coughed up any remains of which I'm aware, so I don't have a problem debating this particular aspect of the holocaust with people. But there have been archeaological digs at Belzec and Chelmno and there are clearly bodies in the ground. Saying they're not there doesn't help our position at all.

Instead, it would be helpful if we could establish whose bodies they are. They're clearly not the Jews who were deproted there, so we have to offer a plausible alternate solution. It's likely that these are NKVD gravesites or maybe even older gravesites then that. That's part of what we need to establish. In the case of Chelmno, at least there were buildings there beforehand, which helps make our cases that the graves had been there for some time. I know less about Belzec on this particular issue.

Again, the position I'm taking isn't that Chelmno (and Belzec) were death camps. My position is that they were transit camps but that our case for them as transit camps is comparatively weaker than it is with other camps. That's all, nothing more or less.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Rankweil » 6 years 11 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:10 pm)

It might be helpful to establish a timeline.

We know Jews were deported to camps in 1942 and 1943 and we know that they were gone by the time the Russians arrived at the camps. Focusing on Chelmno, that gives us between summer of 1944 (when Jews from Lodz were transited through there) and March 1945 (by which time the Russians took the Warthegau).

Knowing precisely where the front was at that time could also help explain where, ultimately, those Jews ended up. The Germans could send them as far as western Russia in 1942 but only as far as further east in Poland by late 1944. Do we know whether the ultimate destination changed from time to time?

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:13 pm)

Hannover wrote:It's rather like this scenario:

A man is accused of murder.
Why? Because someone is allegedly missing.
The accused says 'I didn't murder the allegedly missing person'.
The accuser then asks: 'If you didn't kill that person, then where are they?


Say what? It would be laughed out of a legit court of law.


If the accused then said "theyr'e here! Here's their address! Here's the documentation, they are still alive..hahaha!!"

Then....THEN....it would be laughed out of court. Because the victim is still alive. There is no murder case!

BUT...if the accused said "I don't know where they are" then he would still get off, and it was a stupendously weak case for the accuser BUT....investigations might have gone on a little further....and there still might be some doubts in some people minds.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.



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