Vergassungskeller question

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Reinhard
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Re: Vergassungskeller question

Postby Reinhard » 1 decade 1 month ago (Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:15 am)

Lohengrin wrote:[...]

German cremation technicians call the lower part of the oven, which generates hot air for incineration ‘Generator’. In a letter from Topf und Söhne to the Neubauleitung in KL Mauthausen (Letter from Topf to SS-Neubauleitung KL Mauthausen of 6 January 1941. BK, NS4 Ma/54 January 6, 1941, as cited by Mattogno in ‘Cremation Ovens Auschwitz’), these technicians called the produced hot air ‘Generatorgase’.
To generate ‘gas’ in a ‘generator’ is simply part of the incineration process.

Because the gas-generating process takes place in the lowest part of the oven-building, at a lower level, it is necessarily situated in a souterrain, a sub-level or even a separate floor; in any case: below the floor level of the cremation room.

[...]

If so, it’s logical and completely normal to call this Generatorgase sub-level: “Vergasungskeller”.



Also Prof. Arthur R. Butz has argued in the same way:

Prof. Arthur R. Butz wrote:The "Vergasungskeller" (gassing cellar)

Earlier, I considered a widely-cited document dated January 29, 1943, in which Karl Bischoff, head of the Auschwitz construction department, reported to Hans Kammler, head of the SS engineering office in Berlin, on the operational status of Crematory II: [587]

"The Crematorium II has been completed - save for some minor constructional work - by the use of all the forces available, in spite of unspeakable difficulties, the severe cold, and in 24 hour shifts. The fires were started in the ovens in the presence of Senior Engineer Prüfer, representative of the contractors of the firm of Topf and Sons, Erfurt, and they are working most satisfactorily. The formwork for the reinforced concrete ceiling of the mortuary cellar [Leichenkeller] could not yet be removed on account of the frost. This is, however, unimportant, as the gassing cellar [Vergasungskeller] can be used for this purpose [...]"

In his book, Pressac wrote that my interpretation of the term Vergasungskeller "though perfect in its literary form, was technically worthless." [588] He interprets the term Vergasungskeller in this 1943 document to mean a homicidal gas chamber, and made this number one in his list of 39 "criminal traces" of extermination gassings at Auschwitz. [589]

Although my translation of the term was technically correct, I would now say that Pressac showed that, in this case, my interpretation was not correct. However, Pressac's interpretation is also incorrect, as shown by the evidence he himself reproduces. It is necessary to consider this matter in detail. [590]

The two important German words in this regard are Begasung, treatment with a gas, and Vergasung, gasification or conversion of something into a gas, even in the loose sense; for example, the German word for carburetion is Vergasung. Thus, although "fumigation" should normally be "Begasung," for no clear reason German often allows "Vergasung" to substitute for "Begasung." Thus, gas attacks in World War I were referred to as Vergasung, and professional fumigators often speak of their operations as Vergasung rather than Begasung. However, it appears that Begasung never substitutes for Vergasung and that a fumigation or delousing gas chamber is normally a "Gaskammer," not a "Vergasungskammer" or "Vergasungskeller." Accordingly, the delousing gas chambers at Auschwitz were called "Gaskammern." [591] These are the sorts of arbitrary conventions of usage, not deducible from a dictionary, that occur in any language.

Despite all this, the normal meaning of Vergasung, in a technical context, is gasification, gas generation, or carburetion. In view of that and knowing that some cremation ovens were of a design requiring a combustible gas-air mixture to be introduced by blowers located outside, I interpreted the Vergasungskeller mentioned in the 1943 document as a place where coke or coal was converted into a combustible gas, mixed with air, and then introduced under pressure into the cremation ovens.

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/thottc/20.html
And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed, if all records told the same tale, then the lie passed into history and became truth. »Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past.«
Orwell 1984

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Re: Vergassungskeller question

Postby Lohengrin » 1 decade 1 month ago (Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:26 am)

As I presumed in my last post, the “Vergasungskeller Question” seems to be fully solved now.

Thanks for your reaction, Reinhard. If you said so earlier, it's a compliment for your logical thinking.
The plan of the Krema you presented however, was not as unambiguous as I wish, so I looked a little further and found the map of the "Kellergeschoss".

Semasiological analyses of ‘Vergasung’ vs ‘gassung’ will not bring any answer to the question whether or not there was a ‘Keller’ for homicidal gassings in Krema’s II and III. Certain is that ‘Gassing’ is only used by killing or treating living organisms or goods. ‘Vergasung’ however is used in both cases: to kill living species (be it seldom) and to generate inflammable gaseous matter out of solid material (mostly).

The Töpf und Sohne engineers called generation of hot air for cremation “Generatorgas”. Since this is technically spoken a process of “Vergasung”, the Keller were those generators were located (as I stated on a lower level of the building) was logically called “Vergasungskeller” !

Because I wasn’t sure Krema’s II and III had other lower-level rooms than Leichenkeller 1 and 2, I did some research and found that - INDEED - there was a large room beneath the Cremation room.
I found it on a SS-blueprint dated November 1941, called “Kellergeschoss”. The map I found was ‘discovered’ November last year in Berlin and while there are serious objections against the (mis)use of parts of this material by exterminists, it seems the dimensions etc. of the “Kellergeschoss” (Cellar) on this drawing are genuine.

(I'm not sure if I manage to place an illustration of the map I refer to; otherwise you can find it at http://www.cidi.nl/img/2008/kelderauschwitz_bild.jpg
Image

Well, here we are: this is our “Vergasungskeller”, (Nr. 1 on the drawing), the floor space being no less than 34 x 12 = 408 m² !

So there no longer exist any ambiguity about the name “Vergasungskeller”, there is Zero ‘criminal suspicion’ and one can imagine that for Bischoff the non-availability of Leichenkeller 2 was no problem at all, because there was plenty of space for storage of corpses in the (indeed!!) Vergasungskeller.

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Re: Vergassungskeller question

Postby Lohengrin » 1 decade 1 month ago (Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:46 pm)

‘Nr. 1’ on the drawing above is the possible extra sub-level space 'Vergasungskeller' mentioned in Bischoff’s letter.

As a matter of fact, I found that the Struthof Krema also had a lower-level room beneath the cremation room (see Pressac Technique and Operation of . . ., p. 561, Photo Nr. 39). [url][/url] http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0561.shtml

There is also a photograph of the ruin of Krema II, showing a hole in the floor where the ovens were situated. (Unfortunately I can’t manage to place this photo on the forum).

A possible reservation for my Vergasungskeller thesis is an indication on the drawing Kellergeschoss (Cellar floor) and Erdgeschoss (Ground floor) Nrs. 932 en 933. In the room beneath the Ovenroom is written: ‘Nicht Unterkellert’ (No cellar room). This leaves some doubt.
Nevertheless, there necessarily must have been some kind of space below the Ovenroom.

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Re: Vergassungskeller question

Postby Drew J » 1 decade 1 month ago (Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:34 am)

I remember the Bischoff letter well. I did some googling once and found this thread. BULLETPROOF!!!
http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/6867/t ... tml?page=2

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Re: Vergassungskeller question

Postby Zulu » 1 decade 1 month ago (Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:54 am)

Please repost that link, it doesn't work

http://Alice in Wonderland/topic/6867/t ... tml?page=2

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Re: Vergassungskeller question

Postby Ilikerealhistory » 1 decade 1 month ago (Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:45 am)

It has been 40+ years since I spoke German, and more specifically the Bavarian dialect, but my poor translation of "vergassungskeller" is either chemical storage cabinet or combustion chamber.

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Re: Vergassungskeller question

Postby jnovitz » 1 decade 1 month ago (Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:50 am)

If you look at the earliest plans of Krema II, drawn in October 1941 (before Wannsee or any Jewish evacuations) you will find the two Kellers labeled as L-Keller and B-Keller.
For reasons I can not determine both Pressac and Van Pelt suppress these blueprints and never mention them.
L-Keller is the larger keller, ie what the narrative calls the Undressing Hall
B-Keller is the smaller, what today we call the Gas chamber.
If we have L-Keller meaning Leichenkeller and B-Keller being Bekleidungkeller and remembering that both at Dachau and according to Josef Kramer at Birkenau, the clothing was cleaned and reused then this letter becomes easy to interprete.

"The ovens worked fine, the Leichenkeller can not be used at the moment, but the Vergasgungskeller=Bekleidungskeller can be used for this purpose [ie can be used for storing corpses prior to burning] until the L-Keller is ready"

Of course the flaw here is that no one has found any traces of cyanide in the Vergasungskeller/Bekleidungkeller.

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Re: Vergassungskeller question

Postby spaceboy » 6 years 7 months ago (Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:29 pm)

"...The reinforced concrete ceiling of the morgue could not yet be eliminated due to the freezing weather. However, this is not significant, as the gassing cellar can be used for this purpose"

I'm kind of confused by this part of the letter. Perhaps these are dumb questions but:
Why would the reinforced concrete ceiling need to be eliminated? What is this even talking about?
And when he wrote "can be used for this purpose", I'm assuming he's saying the Vergasungkeller could be used as morgue?

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Re: Vergassungskeller question

Postby spaceboy » 6 years 7 months ago (Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:22 am)

Well, to answer my own question, I just saw this other translation: "Because of the frost, it has not yet been possible to remove the formwork from the ceiling of the corpse cellar". So, that makes a lot more sense.

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Re: Vergassungskeller question

Postby Hektor » 6 years 7 months ago (Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:04 am)

spaceboy wrote:Well, to answer my own question, I just saw this other translation: "Because of the frost, it has not yet been possible to remove the formwork from the ceiling of the corpse cellar". So, that makes a lot more sense.
Correct, mistranslation. Here is the Germa original:
Die Eisenbetondecke des Leichenkellers konnte infolge Frosteinwirkung noch nicht ausgeschalt werden. Die [sic] ist jedoch unbedeutend, da der Vergasungskeller hierfür benützt werden kann.


The 'Leichenkeller' was were they say the gas chambers were, hence "Vergasungskeller" =/= gas chamber from this document.

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Re: Vergassungskeller question

Postby Reviso » 6 years 7 months ago (Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:19 pm)

If I'm not wrong, the word "Vergasungskeller" doesn't appear in any other German document. Is the document with "Vergasungskeller" indubitably authentic ? Isn't possible that somebody "made the document more explicit" by replacing "B-keller" with "Vergasungskeller" ?
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Re: Vergassungskeller question

Postby jheitwler » 6 years 7 months ago (Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:27 am)

I suppose it is possibly possible that somebody made the document more explicit by inserting the word "vergassungskeller." But it doesn't appear to be altered in the scans of the document I have seen. I also think if somebody wanted to make a document more explicit, they would make up whatever the made-up German word for 'gas chamber for killing people' (or something like that) would be. "Gassification celler" is simply ambiguous-- which is my theory as to why somebody underlined it.
"First of all there is the fact that if we assume the Holocaust to have happened more or less as told, all the evidence becomes intelligible, while if we assume it was a hoax, most of the evidence does not make any sense." - Robert Jan Van Pelt

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Re: Vergassungskeller question

Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 6 years 7 months ago (Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:48 am)

ad 1
"Vergasung" is, from a technical perspective, the partial conversion of a liquid or solid in a gaseous product (engl. gasification).

This term is in use from the 19th Century onward. Also the phrase "bis zur Vergasung" (until gasification) in the sense of "ad nauseum" is lead back this origin by the relevant dictionary (Duden). It was already used before the second WW. When poison gas was used militarily during the First World War, the word "vergasen" (gasify) was used by soldiers in the meaning "to kill with gas."

ad 2
If a native German reads the Bischoff letter reads, he will immediately notice that there are not only many simple spelling errors. Such a thing can happen in a hurry. But there is also sentences with phrasings that are so wrong that they would never occur to a native speaker. Some sentences are perfectly correct, other completely embarrassing.

My opinion is that this letter was composed of a real letter, supplemented by a few sentences. The author of these sentences spoke a little German, but much too bad for a document.
"Everything has already been said, but not yet by everyone." - Karl Valentin

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Re: Vergassungskeller question

Postby Reviso » 6 years 7 months ago (Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:45 pm)

ClaudiaRothenbach wrote:there is also sentences with phrasings that are so wrong that they would never occur to a native speaker.


Interesting. Could you give an example of such a sentence ?
Reviso

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Re: Vergassungskeller question

Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 6 years 7 months ago (Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:34 pm)

Reviso wrote:
ClaudiaRothenbach wrote:there is also sentences with phrasings that are so wrong that they would never occur to a native speaker.


Interesting. Could you give an example of such a sentence ?
Reviso


"Die ist jedoch unbedeutend, da der Vergasungskeller hierfür benutzt werden kann."

This sentene makes no sense. Correct would be something like:

"Diese ist jedoch nicht unbedingt erforderlich, da der Vergasungskeller zeitweise als Leichenkeller benutzt werden kann."
"Everything has already been said, but not yet by everyone." - Karl Valentin


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