Claude Vaillant-Couturier

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Trojan
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Claude Vaillant-Couturier

Postby Trojan » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Apr 12, 2004 3:22 pm)

I am no expert or historian ... I have a passing interest and have come to this board to settle some curiosity I have concerning the revisionist ideas.

That being said, have been greeted by Hannover and challenged to produce a "credible" witness ... the one most easily found by me was this french women.

(taken from a board I will not name since this forum does not allow links to most other forums)

"This testimony of a French woman who was arrested by the Germans in 1942 describes day to day conditions at concentration camp (Konzentrationslager - KL) Auschwitz and KL Ravensbrueck. She testified before the IMT at Nuernberg on 28 Jan 1946. Her account is contained in volume 6 of the IMT proceedings."

Perusing the testimony as described in the other forum, it appears that she offers some credible testimony. Certainly something that would be recognized in a court of law. I have no doubt that in any civil proceeding, at a minimum, the judge would allow her transcript to be read into evidence and her credibility would be a question for the jury to decide.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:19 pm)

So, what did she say? Specifics please.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:33 pm)

OK, this is loaded with classic nonsense, I'll be back later. In the meantime have a look.

Some things are terribly wrong with this picture.

- H.

excerpt:
At the end of 5 or 7 minutes, when the gas had completed its work, he gave the signal to open the doors...

...large flames coming from the crematory, and the sky was lighted up by the burning pits.


www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftria ... ttest.html
Testimony of Marie Claude Vaillant-Couturier
Marie Claude-Valliant-Couturier, a former member of the French Resistance who spent three years at Auschwitz, provided the following testimony concerning atrocities she observed at the camp. She was examined by French prosecutor, Charles Dubost.
[Testimony on January 28, 1946]
MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: ... [W]e saw the unsealing of the cars and the soldiers letting men, women, and children out of them. We then witnessed heart-rending scenes; old couples forced to part from each other, mothers made to abandon their young daughters, since the latter were sent to the camp, whereas mothers and children were sent to the gas chambers. All these people were unaware of the fate awaiting them. They were merely upset at being separated, but they did not know that they were going to their death. To render their welcome more pleasant at this time--June to July 1944--an orchestra composed of internees, all young and pretty girls dressed in little white blouses and navy blue skirts, played during the selection, at the arrival of the trains, gay tunes such as " The Merry Widow," the "Barcarolle" from "The Tales of Hoffman," and so forth. They were then informed that this was a labor camp and since they were not brought into the camp they saw only the small platform surrounded by flowering plants. Naturally, they could not realize what was in store for them. Those selected for the gas chamber, that is, the old people, mothers, and children, were escorted to a red-brick building.
M. DUBOST: These were not given an identification number?

VAILLANT-COUTURIER: No.

DUBOST: They were not tattooed?

VAILLANT-COUTURIER: No. They were not even counted.

DUBOST: You were tattooed?

VAILLANT-COUTURIER: Yes, look. [The witness showed her arm.] They were taken to a red brick building, which bore the letters "Baden," that is to say "Baths." There, to begin with, they were made to undress and given a towel before they went into the so-called shower room. Later on, at the time of the large convoys from Hungary, they had no more time left to play-act or to pretend; they were brutally undressed, and I know these details as I knew a little Jewess from France who lived with her family at the 'Republique" district.

DUBOST: In Paris?

VAILLANT-COUTURIER: In Paris. She was called "little Marie" and she was the only one, the sole survivor of a family of nine. Her mother and her seven brothers and sisters had been gassed on arrival. When I met her she was employed to undress the babies before they were taken into the gas chamber. Once the people were undressed they took them into a room, which was somewhat like a shower room, and gas capsules were thrown through an opening in the ceiling. An SS man would watch the effect produced through a porthole. At the end of 5 or 7 minutes, when the gas had completed its work, he gave the signal to open the doors; and men with gas masks-they too were internees-went into the room and removed the corpses. They told us that the internees must have suffered before dying, because they were closely clinging to one another and it was very difficult to separate them.
After that a special squad would come to pull out gold teeth and dentures; and again, when the bodies had been reduced to ashes, they would sift them in an attempt to recover the gold.
At Auschwitz there were eight crematories but, as from 1944, these proved insufficient. The SS had large pits dug by the internees, where they put branches, sprinkled with gasoline, which they set on fire. Then they threw the corpses into the pits. From our block we could see after about three-quarters of an hour or an hour after the arrival of a convoy, large flames coming from the crematory, and the sky was lighted up by the burning pits.
One night we were awakened by terrifying cries. And we discovered, on the following day, from the men working in the Sonderkommando - the "Gas Kommando" - that on the preceding day, the gas supply having run out, they had thrown the children into the furnaces alive.

DUBOST: Can you tell us about the selections that were made at the beginning of winter?

VAILLANT-COUTURIER: ... During Christmas 1944-no, 1943, Christmas 1943-when we were in quarantine, we saw, since we lived opposite Block 25, women brought to Block 25 stripped naked. Uncovered trucks were then driven up and on them the naked women were piled, as many as the trucks could hold. Each time a truck started, the infamous Hessler ... ran after the truck and with his bludgeon repeatedly struck the naked women going to their death. They knew they were going to the gas chamber and tried to escape. They were massacred. They attempted to jump from the truck and we, from our own block, watched the trucks pass by and heard the grievous wailing of all those women who knew they were going to be gassed. Many of them could very well have lived on, since they were suffering only from scabies and were, perhaps, a little too undernourished....
Since the Jewesses were sent to Auschwitz with their entire families and since they had been told that this was a sort of ghetto and were advised to bring all their goods and chattels along, they consequently brought considerable riches with them. As for the jewesses from Salonika, I remember that on their arrival they were given picture postcards bearing the post office address of "Waldsee," a place which did not exist; and a printed text to be sent to their families, stating, "We are doing very well here; we have work and we are well treated. We await your arrival. I myself saw the cards in question; and the Schreiberinnen, that is, the secretaries of the block, were instructed to distribute them among the internees in order to post them to their families. I know that whole families arrived as a result of these postcards.

[Cross-examination by Dr. Hanns Marx, attorney for Julius Streicher:]

DR. HANNS MARX: ... Madame Couturier, you declared that you were arrested by the French police?

MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: Yes.

MARX: For what reason were you arrested ?

VAILLANT-COUTURIER: Resistance. I belonged to a resistance movement.

MARX: Another question: Which position did you occupy? I mean what kind of post did you ever hold? Have you ever held a post?

VAILLANT-COURURIER: Where?

MARX: For example, as a teacher?

VAILLANT-COUTURIER: Before the war? I don't quite see what this question has to do with the matter. I was a journalist.

MARX: Yes. The fact of the matter is that you, in your statement, showed great skill in style and expression; and I should like to know whether you held any position such, for example, as teacher or lecturer.

VAILLANT-COUTURIER: No. I was a newspaper photographer.

MARX: How do you explain that you yourself came through these experiences so well and are now in such a good state of health?

VAILLANT-COUTURIER: First of all, I was liberated a year ago; and in a year one has time to recover. Secondly, I was 10 months in quarantine for typhus and I had the great luck not to die of exanthematic typhus, although I had it and was ill for 31/2 months. Also, in the last months at Ravensbrhck, as I knew German, I worked on the Revier roll call,2 which explains why I did not have to work quite so hard or to suffer from the inclemencies of the weather. On the other hand, out of 230 of us only 49 from my convoy returned alive; and we were only 52 at the end of 4 months. I had the great fortune to return.

MARX: Yes. Does your statement contain what you yourself observed or is it concerned with information from other sources as well?

VAILLANT-COUTURIER: Whenever such was the case I mentioned it in my declaration. I have never quoted anything, which has not previously been verified at the sources and by several persons, but the major part of my evidence is based on personal experience.

MARX: How can you explain your very precise statistical knowledge, for instance, that 700,000 Jews arrived from Hungary?

VAILLANT-COUTURIER: I told you that I have worked in the offices; and where Auschwitz was concerned, I was a friend of the secretary (the Oberaufseherin), whose name and address I gave to the Tribunal.

MARX: It has been stated that only 350,000 Jews came from Hungary, according to the testimony of the Chief of the Gestapo, Eichmann.

VAILLANT-COUTURIER: I am not going to argue with the Gestapo. I have good reasons to know that what the Gestapo states is not always true.

MARX: How were you treated personally? Were you treated well?

VAILLANT-COUTURIER: Like the others.

MARX: Like the others? You said before that the German people must have known of the happenings in Auschwitz. What are your grounds for this statement?

VAILLANT-COUTURIER: I have already told you: To begin with there was the fact that when we left, the Lorraine soldiers of the Wehrmacht who were taking us to Auschwitz said to us, "If you knew where you were going, you would not be in such a hurry to get there." Then there was the fact that the German women who came out of quarantine to go to work in German factories knew of these events, and they all said that they would speak about them outside.
Further, the fact that in all the factories where the Hafflinge (the internees) worked they were in contact with the German civilians, as also were the Aufseherinnen, who were in touch with their friends and families and often told them what they had seen.

MARX: One more question. Up to 1942 you were able to observe the behavior of the German soldiers in Paris. Did not these German soldiers behave well throughout and did they not pay for what they took?

VAILLANT-COUTURIER: I have not the least idea whether they paid or not for what they requisitioned. As for their good behavior, too many of my friends were shot or massacred for me not to differ with you.

MARX: I have no further question to put to this witness.

[The witness left the stand.]
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Malle » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:23 pm)

Hannover,

It was a lousy link you came up with; it's not a 1/10 of her testimony. It's probably only the 'good' parts, I'll think they left out the ridiculous parts. Here is a link to the complete one.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/p ... m#vaillant
I must be a mushroom - because everyone keeps me in the dark and feeds me with lots of bullshit.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:03 am)

Yes, Malle is correct. I ask that Trojan tell us what he finds believable in this aburd fantasy. It reads like a typical Communist creation a la the Katyn Massacre testimony (the Communists later admitted they lied...after executing Germans). Or the special report 'documenting' mass extermination by 'steam chambers', just to name a couple of examples.

However let's look at the most telling bits:

- This woman said that the 'gas chambers' doors were opened after 5-7 minutes of gassing....yet all those in the area would be exposed to cyanide gas and well, gassed! The granules which contained the cyanide take hours to release their load, so what happened to the granules? They would continue giving off gas for hours.

- But wait, this liar claims the gas was in "capsules", Zyklon-B, which was a cyanide impreganted granulated material, was in reality used for delousing.

- She said large flames were coming from the crematorium, lighting the sky. But aerial photos of the period do not show such activity.

- She says everyone was unaware of the gassings awaiting them, but later she says they knew they were going to the alleged gas chambers and tried to escape. A liar losing control of her story.

- In the truncated version she says that in 1944 pits were used for cremation, but in the long version she talks about being given work attempting to drain the endless amounts of groundwater....which being very near the surface would have prevented huge mass cremation pits as alleged. Aerial photos at the time of this alleged mass pit burning do not show the mass cremations pits as alleged.

- She talks of the SS sifting through the ash, but there are no huge ash pits as alleged either.

- Notice the lurid pornographic quality of her testimony, women are always naked (more about her thoughts than anything else) ....which would endanger their health and lessen them as a labor force. Himmler himself gave strict orders to protect the workers and to cut the death rate from disease & illness.

- In the long version of her testimony she claims that they were forced to wear foul clothing for months on end...which ofcourse would simply exacerbate the typhus carrying lice problem that the Germans were desperately trying to fight by using Zyklon-B as a delousing agent.

- In the long version she says that during the big epidemics of typhus in the winters of 1943 and 1944, 200 to 350 died each day.... now we're getting somewhere.

- She says she saw stacks of corpses piled up in the courtyard, and from time to time a hand or a head would stir among the bodies, trying to free itself...dumb & laughable. Aerial photos show no such stacks. And talk about a hygiene problem, whoa!

- She claims of 230 only 49 from her transport returned alive, yet she offers no evidence, nor considers the possibility of natural death, typhus, or the mass Zionist migration to Palestine and many other countries that occurred during and after the war.

- And guess what...lo & behold she was not killed, curious. Yet allegedly there was a policy of extermination. I guess the Germans wanted her to live so she could tell the world what supposedly was a huge secret. Sure.

- In the long version she says that the Germans left behind 2000 sick people (again, to tell of the horrors they had seen & experienced I'm sure), but curiously she volunteered to stay behind and they agreed....so that she too could tell the Communists of all that she had allegedly seen. Problem here is that 'eyewitnesses' such Primo Levi state that they were given a CHOICE to retreat with the SS or stay and wait for the Communist Soviets....the vast majority chose to retreat with the bad boys of the SS. Well now.

- In the long version she says they sang "The Marseillaise" to keep up their courage....oh please.

Well, the gas chambers lies are enough to blow her out of the water and distrust anything else she said, but I invite anyone to add more. Certainly one can see that this women is a liar with no evidence to corroborate here stories.

And let's remember, the woman was a Communist...and they had to manufacture propaganda to distract from the enormous Communist butchery.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:35 am)

In addition, the entire 'gas chambers' canard is demolished in the Rudolf Report. Read about such things as the lack of cyanide residue, the lack of 'holes'/openings for depositing the Zyklon-B cyanide granules that are alleged to have been on top of the 'gas chambers', the absurdity of 'eyewitnesses' (like Vaillant-Couturier). All the way down the line the story is scientifically ridiculously, logically unsound, utterly bizarre, and a classic example of propaganda and lies which have been made into a multi-billion dollar industry.

The Rudolf Report is here, I give you the table of content:
http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/index.html
Table of Content

1. Prelude, p. 11
1.1. Slow Death in U.S. Gas Chambers, p. 11
1.2. Hydrogen Cyanide—a Dangerous Poison, p. 15
1.3. The Acid that Causes Blue Stains, p. 20
2. The Coup, p. 23
2.1. Fred Leuchter on Auschwitz and Majdanek, p. 23
2.2. Damage Control, p. 26
3. The Origins, p. 29
3.1. On the Problem, p. 32
3.2. On Politics, p. 36
4. A Brief History of Forensic Examinations of Auschwitz, p. 39
4.1. Introduction, p. 39
4.2. The Moral Obligation of Forensic Examination, p. 39
4.3. A Definition of Forensic Science, p. 41
4.4. Forensic Science and Auschwitz, p. 42
4.4.1. Forensics in the Courts, p. 42
4.4.1.1. The 1946 Cracow Auschwitz Trial, p. 42
4.4.1.2. The 1964-1966 Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial, S. 44
4.4.1.3. The 1972 Vienna Auschwitz Trial, p. 45
4.4.2. Forensics Outside the Courts, p. 46
4.4.2.1. In Search of Mass Graves, p. 46
4.4.2.2. Faurisson and the Consequences, p. 46
5. Auschwitz, p. 49
5.1. Introduction, p. 49
5.1.1. "Opera During the Holocaust, p. 49
5.1.2. On the History of the Camp, p. 51
5.2. Epidemics and the Defense Against them, p. 59
5.2.1. Danger of Epidemics, p. 59
5.2.2. Epidemic Control with Zyklon B, p. 60
5.2.3. Epidemic Control in Auschwitz, p. 65
5.2.3.1. Terminology Used and Responsibilities, p. 65
5.2.3.2. Procedures Used, p. 67
5.2.3.3. Results, p. 68
5.2.3.4. Basic Policy Decisions, p. 69
5.2.3.5. The Army Medical Officer, p. 70
5.2.3.6. Short-Wave Delousing Facility, p. 73
5.2.4. Disinfestation Installations BW 5a und 5b, p. 73
5.3. ‘Gas Chamber’ in the Auschwitz I Main Camp, p. 78
5.4. ‘Gas Chambers’ in Birkenau Camp, p. 88
5.4.1. Crematoria II and III, p. 88
5.4.1.1. Starting Situation, p. 88
5.4.1.2. The Obsessive Search for "Criminal Traces", p. 94
5.4.1.2.1. New Cellars Stairways, p. 95
5.4.1.2.2. Gassing Cellar, Undressing Room, and Showers, p. 96
5.4.1.2.3. "Gas-tight Doors" for Crematorium II, p. 103
5.4.1.2.4. Ventilation Installations, p. 107
5.4.1.2.5. Pre-heated Morgues, p. 108
5.4.1.2.6. "Cremation with Simultaneous Sonderbehandlung", p. 109
5.4.1.2.7. "Gas Testers" and "Indicator Devices for HCN Residues", p. 111
5.4.1.2.8. Zyklon B Introduction Holes, p. 113
5.4.1.2.9. Conclusions, p. 133
5.4.2. Crematoria IV and V, p. 135
5.4.3. Farmhouses 1 and 2, p. 139
5.4.4. The Drainage System in Birkenau, p. 141
5.4.4.1. Background: Eyewitness Accounts, p. 141
5.4.4.2. The Ground Water Table in Birkenau, p. 141
5.4.4.3. Open-Air Incineration in Pits, p. 143
5.5. Construction Conclusions, p. 145
6. Formation and Stability of Iron Blue, p. 151
6.1. Introduction, p. 151
6.2. Instances of Damages to Buildings, p. 152
6.3. Properties of Hydrogen Cyanide, HCN, p. 155
6.4. Composition of Iron Blue, p. 158
6.4.1. Overview, p. 158
6.4.2. Excursus, p. 158
6.5. Formation of Iron Blue, p. 159
6.5.1. Overview, p. 159
6.5.2. Water Content, p. 161
6.5.2.1. Overview, p. 161
6.5.2.2. Excursus, p. 161
6.5.3. Reactivity of Trivalent Iron, p. 163
6.5.3.1. Overview, p. 163
6.5.3.2. Excursus, p. 163
6.5.4. Temperature, p. 164
6.5.4.1. Overview, p. 164
6.5.4.2. Excursus, p. 167
6.5.5. pH Value, p. 168
6.6. Stability of Iron Blue, p. 170
6.6.1. pH Sensitivity, p. 170
6.6.2. Solubility, p. 171
6.6.2.1. Overview, p. 171
6.6.2.2. Excursus, p. 172
6.6.3. Excursus: Competing Ligands, p. 175
6.6.4. Effects of Light, p. 176
6.6.4.1. Overview, p. 176
6.6.4.2. Excursus, p. 176
6.6.5. Long-Term Test, p. 177
6.7. Influence of Various Building Materials, p. 180
6.7.1. Brick, p. 180
6.7.1.1. Overview, p. 180
6.7.1.2. Excursus, p. 181
6.7.2. Cement Mortar and Concrete, p. 181
6.7.2.1. Overview, p. 181
6.7.2.2. Excursus, p. 182
6.7.3. Lime Mortar, p. 185
6.7.4. Effects upon the Formation of Iron Blue, p. 185
7. Zyklon B for the Killing of Human Beings, p. 191
7.1. Toxicological Effect of HCN, p. 191
7.2. Evaporation Characteristics of Zyklon B, p. 194
7.3. The Gassing of Human Beings, p. 196
7.3.1. Eyewitness Testimonies, p. 196
7.3.1.1. Boundary Conditions, p. 196
7.3.1.2. Eyewitness Fantasies, p. 199
7.3.1.3. Quantities of Poison Gas, p. 208
7.3.1.3.1. Overview, p. 208
7.3.1.3.2. Excursus 1: Poisoning or Suffocation?, p. 211
7.3.1.3.3. Excursus 2: HCN Loss due to Adsorption, p. 216
7.3.2. Critique of the Eyewitness Descriptions, p. 218
7.3.2.1. Theatre of the Absurd, p. 218
7.3.2.1.1. Necessity of Co-Operation, p. 218
7.3.2.1.2. Failure to Separate the Sexes, p. 219
7.3.2.1.3. Towel and Soap, p. 220
7.3.2.2. Speed of Ventilation of the ‘Gas Chambers’, S. 220
7.3.2.2.1. Introduction, p. 220
7.3.2.2.2. Excursus, p. 220
7.3.2.2.3. Ventilation of the Morgues of Crematorium II and III, S. 223
7.3.2.3. Simulation Calculations, p. 227
7.3.2.4. Excursus: Capacity of Protective Filters, p. 230
7.3.3. Evaluation of Eyewitnesses, p. 233
7.3.4. An Expert on Cyanide Speaks Out, p. 238
7.3.5. Why Precisely Zyklon B?, p. 241
8. Evaluation of Chemical Analyses, p. 245
8.1. Test Sample Taking and Description, p. 245
8.2. Analytical Methods, p. 246
8.3. Evaluation of Analytical Results, p. 247
8.3.1. F.A. Leuchter/Alpha Analytic Laboratories, p. 247
8.3.2. Institute for Forensic Research, Cracow, p. 250
8.3.3. G. Rudolf/Fresenius Institute, p. 252
8.3.3.1. Samples 1-4: Crematorium II, Morgue 1, p. 253
8.3.3.2. Samples 5 to 8 and 23, 24: Inmate Barracks, p. 258
8.3.3.3. Samples 9 to 22: Disinfestation Building, S. 258
8.3.3.4. Samples 25-30: Tests, p. 265
8.3.4. John C. Ball, p. 268
8.4. Discussion of the Analysis Results, p. 269
8.4.1. Blue Wall Paint?, p. 269
8.4.2. False Method of Analysis, p. 270
8.4.3. The Memory Hole, p. 273
8.4.4. The Moon is Made of Pizza, p. 276
8.4.5. Anticipated Values, p. 279
8.4.6. Limits of the Chemical Method, p. 283
9. Conclusions, p. 287
10. Acknowledgements, p. 293
11. Hunting Germar Rudolf, p. 297
11.1. What Makes Revisionists?, p. 297
11.2. The Naiveté of a Young Revisionist, p. 316
11.3. Flaws of a State Under the Rule of Law, p. 330
11.4. Rudolf’s Thought ‘Crimes’, p. 345
11.5. The Media and the Case of Germar Rudolf, p. 383
11.6. Outlawed in the Federal Republic of Germany, p. 404
11.7. Biographical Notes on the Author, p. 421
12. Bibliography, p. 423
12.1. Monographs, p. 423
12.2. Periodical Articles, p. 428
12.3. Archival Documents, p. 434
12.4. Internet Documents, p. 434
12.5. Courts Files, Governmental Documents, p. 436
12.6. Video, Audio, and Unpublished Documents, p. 437
13. Lists
13.1. List of Tables, S. 439
13.2. List of Illustrations, p. 440
13.3. List of Graphs, p. 444
13.4. List of Abbreviations, p. 445
14. Index, p. 447

Voices of Scholars


- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Trojan » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:55 am)

I find it interesting how you draw the conclusion that since she is a communist she has a reason to be decietful ... yet you freely quote revisionist authors and internet sites and give them full credibility.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:26 pm)

Well yes, the Communist were notorious for lying and creating propaganda...where ya' been? Revisionist authors such as Rudolf cannot be refuted with science and facts, I notice you don't even try.

I also notice you avoided the specifics of my responses. Why?

And, you have failed to tell us what in her testimony you find credible and why?

We're waiting for you to respond to specifics, can you? Please do not dodge. Afterall, it was you who started this thread.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Trojan » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:38 pm)

Hannover wrote:Well yes, the Communist were notorious for lying and creating propaganda...where ya' been? Revisionist authors such as Rudolf cannot be refuted with science and facts, I notice you don't even try.

- Hannover


You love to speak in absolutes ... science and facts have refuted revisionist arguments - courst of law have upheld and handed down convictions against holocaust perpetrators ... when has a conviction been overturned

I said I am no expert and can't debate point for point

But here's a question ... why don't you remove the "*** This post will be moderated upon posting and unviewable until approved. ***" provision and perhaps some credible debates can take place.

I'm not going to waste my time as long as my posts are subject to your censorship (and don't try to pretend that you and the moderator are not one and the same).

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:02 pm)

Arno Mayer, professor emeritus of history at Princeton. in "Why Did the Heavens Not Darken" (1988) :

"Most of what is known [on homicidal gassings] is based on the depositions of Nazi officials and executioners at postwar trials and on the memory of survivors and bystanders. This testimony must be screened carefully, since it can be influenced by subjective factors of great complexity"

And Rudolf (Köhler) in "The Value of Testimony and Confessions Concerning the Holocaust" http://www.codoh.com/found/fndvalue.html#_Ref394394007:

"While making no claims to completeness, the following lists a few criteria for determining credibility of witnesses:

a. Emotional involvement. If witnesses are emotionally too involved in the cases under investigation, this may distort the testimony in one direction or the other, without this necessarily being a conscious process.

b. Veracity. If it turns out that a witness is not overly concerned about truthfulness, this casts doubts upon his further credibility.

c. Testimony under coercion. The frankness of testimony may be limited if a witness is subjected to direct or indirect pressure that makes him deem it advisable to configure his testimony accordingly.

d. Third-party influence. A person’s memory is easy to manipulate. Events reported by acquaintances or in the media can easily become assimilated as ‘personal experience’. Thus, if a witness has been exposed intensively to one-sided accounts of the trial substance prior to testifying, this can very well affect his testimony to reflect these impressions.

e. Temporal distance from the events to be attested to. It is generally known that the reliability of eyewitness testimony diminishes greatly after only a few days, and after several months has been so severely influenced and altered by the replacement of forgotten details with subsequent impressions that it retains hardly any value as evidence."

The testimonies of Claude Vaillant-Couturier are considered by revisionists (Stäglich, Graf) as invented stories, total rubbish and hateful exaggerations, based on camp gossip and rumors inside the camp Birkenau.

fge

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:57 pm)

Trojan says:
...science and facts have refuted revisionist arguments - courst of law have upheld and handed down convictions against holocaust perpetrators ... when has a conviction been overturned?

Oh really. I see he hasn't backed that up in the least, IOW he dodges. Science is on the Revisionist side and he cannot refute us; and apparently would rather run than debate or admit error.

He talks of 'courts' which were in reality show trials in which Revisionists have exposed case after case. Once again Trojan backs up nothing with examples or evidence, no specific court cases mentioned and no transcript examples shown. Again, he dodges.

Trojan says:
I'm not going to waste my time as long as my posts are subject to your censorship...

He claims his post are subject to censorship, which is false. Not one of his on topic posts have ever been deleted and he can't show otherwise. His namecalling is however subject to deletion per the guidelines which he agreed to when he registered. Take note of this thread on this woman and her bizarre stories. He posted it (not censored) and now can't back it up when Revisionists refute her silliness.

Responses like this from True Believers are the best indicator that the 'holocaust' story as alleged is a fraud. They talk, but can't back it up when their absurd stories are scrutinized.

Another win for Revisionism, Truth, and Free Speech.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Richard Murphy » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:58 pm)

Hannover wrote:Yes, Malle is correct. I ask that Trojan tell us what he finds believable in this aburd fantasy. It reads like a typical Communist creation a la the Katyn Massacre testimony (the Communists later admitted they lied...after executing Germans).


Which Germans were those? K.H. Strueffling? H. Remlinger? E. Böhem? E. Sommerfeld? H. Jannike? E. Skotki? E. Geherer? E.P Vogel? F. Weise? A. Diere? Nothinghas been presented that substantiated these claims (Made by H. Famira, a supposed Professor of German, though. noticeably, exactly what his doctorate is specifically linked to (Language? Culture? History?) is never mentioned.) who failed to back up his claims? To which unit did they belong? Where is the evidence that they had anything to do with Katyn? Where is the evidence that the first seven were "tried by a court of the victorious allies"? Or that the last three "recieved sentences of twenty of hard labour, were turned over to the Russians and never heard of again."

Ref: http://www.co.../dcboard.cgi?az=show_threa&om=502&forum=DCForumID7&omm=11 (May or may not work, quoting from a print out dated 13/07/01 from the old CODOH Forum


SPECIFIC answers (NOT print outs from Pravda et al.) are required, along withy a realistic answer to the basic question of why were the Poles shot with GERMAN ammunition!


PS. The Communists have never admitted the crime, Gorbachev used the "crime" to discredit his enemies (IE the Communists.), the questions have still not been asnwered to any sort of satifaction vis-a-vis the holocaust.
Regards from the Park,

Rich

"If it can't...it didn't"

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Postby Richard Murphy » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Apr 13, 2004 4:13 pm)

Sailor wrote:Arno Mayer, professor emeritus of history at Princeton. in "Why Did the Heavens Not Darken" (1988) :

"Most of what is known [on homicidal gassings] is based on the depositions of Nazi officials and executioners at postwar trials and on the memory of survivors and bystanders. This testimony must be screened carefully, since it can be influenced by subjective factors of great complexity"

And Rudolf (Köhler) in "The Value of Testimony and Confessions Concerning the Holocaust" http://www.codoh.com/found/fndvalue.html#_Ref394394007:

"While making no claims to completeness, the following lists a few criteria for determining credibility of witnesses:

a. Emotional involvement. If witnesses are emotionally too involved in the cases under investigation, this may distort the testimony in one direction or the other, without this necessarily being a conscious process.

b. Veracity. If it turns out that a witness is not overly concerned about truthfulness, this casts doubts upon his further credibility.

c. Testimony under coercion. The frankness of testimony may be limited if a witness is subjected to direct or indirect pressure that makes him deem it advisable to configure his testimony accordingly.

d. Third-party influence. A person’s memory is easy to manipulate. Events reported by acquaintances or in the media can easily become assimilated as ‘personal experience’. Thus, if a witness has been exposed intensively to one-sided accounts of the trial substance prior to testifying, this can very well affect his testimony to reflect these impressions.

e. Temporal distance from the events to be attested to. It is generally known that the reliability of eyewitness testimony diminishes greatly after only a few days, and after several months has been so severely influenced and altered by the replacement of forgotten details with subsequent impressions that it retains hardly any value as evidence."

The testimonies of Claude Vaillant-Couturier are considered by revisionists (Stäglich, Graf) as invented stories, total rubbish and hateful exaggerations, based on camp gossip and rumors inside the camp Birkenau.

fge

So, what do we read into this?

"Emotionally involved"? Well, besides Hitler and Stalin, who wasn't? How could they not be? Did they "care"? Examples of Nazi's "saving" Jews would be a start

That a witness could (Or couldn't) be "coached"? Where is that news?

That any form of interrogation makes the statements invalid? What form of justice does not rely on interrogation? Do you seriously expect anyone to recant without some form of torture (I'm talking mental, not physically.)?

The accused remain free to be interogated, within the limits of the law. The accusation that the Nazi's who didn't take the easy way out (Suicide) are, somehome to be disbelieved (Beacause, of course, they were "forced" to admit their guilt (Specific retractions would be a start, from eye witnesses, please.)

I am very tired, having done an 18 at work today, but, if the moderator allows, I will be happy to post the refutatation of this HS tomorrow (Assuming I don't have any more staffing disasters!)

Regards,

Rich

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Postby Trojan » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Apr 13, 2004 4:24 pm)

Sailor wrote:And Rudolf (Köhler) in "The Value of Testimony and Confessions Concerning the Holocaust" http://www.codoh.com/found/fndvalue.html#_Ref394394007:

"While making no claims to completeness, the following lists a few criteria for determining credibility of witnesses:

a. Emotional involvement. If witnesses are emotionally too involved in the cases under investigation, this may distort the testimony in one direction or the other, without this necessarily being a conscious process.

b. Veracity. If it turns out that a witness is not overly concerned about truthfulness, this casts doubts upon his further credibility.

c. Testimony under coercion. The frankness of testimony may be limited if a witness is subjected to direct or indirect pressure that makes him deem it advisable to configure his testimony accordingly.

d. Third-party influence. A person’s memory is easy to manipulate. Events reported by acquaintances or in the media can easily become assimilated as ‘personal experience’. Thus, if a witness has been exposed intensively to one-sided accounts of the trial substance prior to testifying, this can very well affect his testimony to reflect these impressions.

e. Temporal distance from the events to be attested to. It is generally known that the reliability of eyewitness testimony diminishes greatly after only a few days, and after several months has been so severely influenced and altered by the replacement of forgotten details with subsequent impressions that it retains hardly any value as evidence."

The testimonies of Claude Vaillant-Couturier are considered by revisionists (Stäglich, Graf) as invented stories, total rubbish and hateful exaggerations, based on camp gossip and rumors inside the camp Birkenau.

fge


This may be all well in good in the revisionist world ... however, in the real world the following may be more applicable:

CREDIBILITY OF A WITNESS

The credibility of a witness is his or her worthiness of belief, determined by the following considerations: Character, acuteness of powers of observation, accuracy and retentiveness of memory, general manner in giving evidence, relation to the matter before the court, appearance, deportment, and prejudices, general reputation for truth in his or her community, a comparison of his or her testimony with other statements made by him or her out of court, and a comparison of his or her testimony with that of others.

The creditivity of a witness may be attacked in cross-examination, or by evidence, to show that the witness has a bad reputation for truthfulness. Evidence that he or she was convicted in court of a crime involving moral turpitude and, particularly, perjury may be admitted. Testimony may be introduced to the effect that the witness has a bad reputation for truthfulness in his or her community or place of employment, and his or her reputation is considered to be a matter of fact. Testimony concerning his or her character is not allowed, because the law holds that this is a matter of opinion.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Apr 13, 2004 4:52 pm)

Now Richard Murphy chimes in on Katyn, but fails to address Vaillant-Couturier's absurd testimony, why is that?

Hey Rich, Gorbachev was a Communist, how do you think he got in office?
And the forensic study done by the German is conclusive as to dates...remember at the time of the massacre Katyn was in the Soviet area of control.
..while the bullets used to shoot the victims in the back of the head were German-made, they had been exported to Russia before 1933.
see *** below

see:
http://www.katyn.org.au/naziphotos.html
http://www.katyn.org.au/memorials.html

Stalin's actual order:
Image
see the entire document here:
http://katyn.codis.ru/fberia.htm

There were many, many international observers at the exhumation and forensic study site. No such exhumation / forensic site study has produced such evidence for alleged 'holocaust' sites...none and you can't show us any.

The photos are: in situ, verified as to location, witnessed by international observers (obsevers shown in the photos....none of them have refuted the German findings), verifiable as to date, distributed widely.
Aerial photography has contributed significantly to the establishment of certain facts. Over-flies by the Luftwaffe quite clearly demonstrate that the substantial disturbances of the earth's surface, which would subsequently be determined to be some of the burial sites, pre-date the German advance into the area.
- Aerial Photography and the Katyn Forest Massacre
Frank Fox, West Chester Univ of Pennsylvania, 1999
ISBN 1887732136


No documents, letters, or postcards with dates beyond the 1940 Communist execution date were carried, received by relatives or friends of the Polish officers, or issued to the officers. Show me any such correspondence or paper trail beyond the 1940 date, you cannot.

For further confirmation of such commonplace mass murders by the Communists, in January 2000, Russia's president-elect Vladimir Putin telephoned Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewski to inform him of the discovery of a mass grave that contained the bodies of Poles murdered by Soviet forces during the war.

***
A U.S. Congressional Commission of Inquiry into Katyn in 1951-52 determined the victims had been killed between March and May 1940, i.e., when the territory was under Soviet control. Proof of the date included, in addition to a few eye-witness accounts:

(a) letters, postcards and newspapers found on the bodies
(b) the winter clothes of the some of the victims
(c) the fact that the trees covering the graves had been transplanted there in spring 1940.
(d) while the bullets used to shoot the victims in the back of the head were German-made, they had been exported to Russia before 1933.
(e) the rope with which the victims's hands were tied behind their backs (when not tied with wire), was made in Russia.


- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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