Green, Mathis refuted / cyanide: lice, humans, & more

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Green, Mathis refuted / cyanide: lice, humans, & more

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Apr 19, 2003 8:28 pm)

The assertion that 'lice require higher doses of cyanide for death than humans' is used in an attempt to explain the lack of cyanide residue to support the 'mass extermination' allegation in structures said to have been gas chambers; but that is not valid for our purposes.

Chemist, Germar Rudolf has shown: "the minimum amount of Zyklon B to be introduced in these rooms would have been in the order of magnitude of ten times the amount normally used for delousing procedures".
Read more in sec. 4 of - http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/RudolfOnVanPelt.html

It's important to remember that alleged 'eyewitnesses' have claimed death that was achieved in mere minutes, which would have necessitated extremely high amounts of Zyklon-B and resulting high levels of cyanide residue in these alleged gas chambers, which are not to be found, as demonstrated by Rudolf.

also see:
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndgcger.html

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Re: Green, Mathis refuted / cyanide: lice, humans, & more

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:15 pm)

Trtsk has brought this topic up again, so here it is. Comments invited.

more:

This assertion completely ignores the numbers of Jews allegedly gassed at one time in a large underground space and the alleged time lengths, which are said to have been mere minutes....all of which would have required massive amounts of Zyklon-B and necessitated vast amounts of cyanide residue, but not the case.

There is also a deceptive standard of measurement being used, not unusual for the so called "holocaust" Industry. I have listed some urls for info. and outlined some points, parts A. & B. ...read on.

A. quick points:

from Germar Rudolf, master chemist:

"the minimum amount of Zyklon B to be introduced in these rooms would have been in the order of magnitude of ten times the amount normally used for delousing procedures"

- This false argument, "it takes more cyanide to kill insects than it does humans, hence low HCN residue in the alleged gas chambers" is refuted by Germar Rudolf here:
https://codoh.com/library/document/925/

- Rudolf also destroys Robert Jan Van Pelt (fraudulent Auschwitz 'expert') and the false assertions about amounts of HCN found in the laughable, alleged 'gas chambers': http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/RudolfOnVanPelt.html

B. The argument is based on a false measurement standard, some points on that:

the false argument from:
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leu ... aq-04.html
"But - HCN is far more effective on warm-blooded animals (including humans) than on insects, so the period of exposure to HCN is far longer for delousing clothes than that required for homicidal gassings, and a much lower concentration is necessary to kill people instead of insects.
A concentration of up to 16,000 ppm (parts per million) is sometimes used, with exposure times of up to 72 hours, to kill insects, but as little as 300 ppm will cause death in humans within fifteen minutes or so."

false argument exposed:
Two different measurement standards are being used, with the pretense there is only one measurement standard.
The measurement standard used for the HCN killing insects is the measurement for killing every single insect. In other words, if there are a thousand insects on a piece of cloth or room, the measurement is for killing every single one of those thousand insects.

With the measurement for humans, on the other hand, what's used is the measurement that can kill a single human being. This measurement is extremely low, because a small percentage of humans have a very low tolerance. In other words, if there were a thousand people in a room, that concentration could kill one person out of those thousand.

The toxicological literature gives two main threshold values of poisonous substances, from Rudolf - https://codoh.com/library/document/925/ :
"The lethal dose 100%, LD100, which gives the concentration or quantity of poison required to kill all (100%) individuals of an observed species. This value is used to make sure that all individuals are successfully killed.
The lethal dose 1%, LD1, which gives the concentration or quantity of poison required to kill 1% of all individuals of an observed species. This value is used to mark a threshold beyond which an exposition to that poison is definitively dangerous."


The argument that a higher concentration of cyanide was needed to kill lice than humans is a canard, and now you can see how deceptive their argument is. They use two different measurement standards for humans and lice, but at 1st glance you think they are using the same standard.

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Postby code yellow » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:04 am)

:) OK,I'm a little confused.Apparently,at Auschwitz there was a facility that was closed off to the public that contained matresses and the like that had very high amounts of blue in them,while the facilities that are alleged as gas chambers,wich are open to the public,have very small amounts,wich,if I am correct,is the argument of exterminationists that it takes smaller amounts of Zyklon B to kill humans.Why are these small amounts of Zyklon traces there at all?

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Postby aemathisphd » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:18 am)

This would all be very nice if it were true, but alas, it is not.

Here are the conditions for a typical delousing: A room with its furniture, empty of human beings, would be exposed to hydrogen cyanide escaping from Zyklon-B carrier, as the instructions recommended, for the course of 24 hours. This would allow for the carrier to release all the HCN therein and for the gas to then dissipate, making it safe to then enter the room.

Such conditions would necessarily leave serious amounts of HCN on the walls. In chambers specifically built for delousing, this would also account for deposits of Prussian blue on the walls.

Here are the conditions for a typical homocidal gassing: A room bereft of furniture, but filled with human beings, would be exposed to a smaller amount of Zyklon-B. Because the temperature in the room would be perhaps as much as 20 degrees higher (Celsius) and because there would be considerably more humidity in the room, the result would be a quicker release of gas. Because less cyanide is needed to kill humans than lice, the required exposure time would be significantly decreased. And because the gas chambers had forced ventilation, or at the very least because the Sonderkommando wore gas masks, the rooms could be re-entered quickly and the bodies removed. This would leave relatively little cyanide residue on the walls. Nevertheless, the cyanide is there.

There is no canard here, ladies and gentlemen. This is simple physical chemistry, as laid out in Green's several reports on Auschwitz.

Note that David Irving withdrew Germar Rudolf's expert affidavit in the application for leave for appeal in Irving v. Lipstadt. (Irving similarly vacated Ruth Polanska-Palmer's affidavit when Robert Jan van Pelt filed his affidavit.)

I am open to fielding questions on this, but I would appreciate not being dogpiled. Thanks in advance, and thanks to the powers that be for allowing me into the Revisionist Forum.

Have a great day.

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Postby code yellow » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:30 am)

:) You get what I mean,if the alleged gas chamber facilities that contain not enough Zykoln traces to kill lice,but as well not enough traces to kill the amount of humans in the amount of time alleged by eyewittness accounts,could it be possible that zyklon b was used AFTER the war in these facilities to add effect,without being aware of the proper amounts to validate the eyewittness testimonies?

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Postby aemathisphd » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:44 am)

You seem to be replying to me, but as my response has been deleted, I cannot.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:22 am)

Mathis:

You are misinformed here. No such post/s have been deleted. You do realize that they do not show up until one of the Moderators releases them, yes?

BTW: No posts are deleted for on topic content.

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Postby aemathisphd » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:27 am)

code yellow wrote::) You get what I mean,if the alleged gas chamber facilities that contain not enough Zykoln traces to kill lice,but as well not enough traces to kill the amount of humans in the amount of time alleged by eyewittness accounts,could it be possible that zyklon b was used AFTER the war in these facilities to add effect,without being aware of the proper amounts to validate the eyewittness testimonies?


Anything is possible. But the fact is that the 1990 Cracow IFR report affirms enough cyanide on the walls of Krema II even after 45 years of exposure to corroborate homocidal gassing in that room.

I.e., the levels are sufficient to kill humans, but not lice. Krema II was fumigated exactly once according to records, by the way.

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Postby code yellow » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Apr 16, 2004 10:11 am)

aemathisphd wrote:
code yellow wrote::) You get what I mean,if the alleged gas chamber facilities that contain not enough Zykoln traces to kill lice,but as well not enough traces to kill the amount of humans in the amount of time alleged by eyewittness accounts,could it be possible that zyklon b was used AFTER the war in these facilities to add effect,without being aware of the proper amounts to validate the eyewittness testimonies?


Anything is possible. But the fact is that the 1990 Cracow IFR report affirms enough cyanide on the walls of Krema II even after 45 years of exposure to corroborate homocidal gassing in that room.

I.e., the levels are sufficient to kill humans, but not lice. Krema II was fumigated exactly once according to records, by the way. :?
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:?

Sorry,I can't agree with that.The fact that eyewittnesses reported the amount of people per gassing and the length of the gassing time to kill this huge amount of people at one time tells me it's impossible.It seems more plausible to me that the amount of people said to have been gassed at the same time would have taken much longer because of blockage of the cyanide to get to everyone in the facility.It seams to me that it would have been ineffective,according to eyewitness accounts of the process.

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Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:50 am)

aemathisphd wrote:
... because there would be considerably more humidity in the room, the result would be a quicker release of gas.

This is wrong. See Rudolf Report, Chapter 7.2: http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/7.html#7.2.

Humidity retards the release of gas. :(
______________________________________

aemathisphd wrote:
... or at the very least because the Sonderkommando wore gas masks, the rooms could be re-entered quickly and the bodies removed.

This is wrong too. Hoess confessed that the SK guys ate and smoked during re-erntering.

It is not possible to eat or smoke wearing a gas mask. :(

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Postby aemathisphd » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:51 am)

code yellow wrote:
aemathisphd wrote:
code yellow wrote::) You get what I mean,if the alleged gas chamber facilities that contain not enough Zykoln traces to kill lice,but as well not enough traces to kill the amount of humans in the amount of time alleged by eyewittness accounts,could it be possible that zyklon b was used AFTER the war in these facilities to add effect,without being aware of the proper amounts to validate the eyewittness testimonies?


Anything is possible. But the fact is that the 1990 Cracow IFR report affirms enough cyanide on the walls of Krema II even after 45 years of exposure to corroborate homocidal gassing in that room.

I.e., the levels are sufficient to kill humans, but not lice. Krema II was fumigated exactly once according to records, by the way. :?
a.m.
:?

Sorry,I can't agree with that.The fact that eyewittnesses reported the amount of people per gassing and the length of the gassing time to kill this huge amount of people at one time tells me it's impossible.It seems more plausible to me that the amount of people said to have been gassed at the same time would have taken much longer because of blockage of the cyanide to get to everyone in the facility.It seams to me that it would have been ineffective,according to eyewitness accounts of the process.


Could you point to a specific eyewitness and tell me why you think the account is implausible? I assume the witness would be either a Sonderkommando or an SS officer?

Keep one thing in mind: When people would start to drop dead in gas chambers, panic would break out. This would result in a couple of things: People would rush the door and would scramble to get to fresh air from the ventilation ports or even the induction holes. This would separate the people to some extent, and even those in the center trying to get higher up to reach fresh air would trample others.

This is one reason why Zyklon-B without indicator was requisitioned for Auschwitz. It put off the amount of time before panic set in -- otherwise it would set in the moment they smelled the indicator.

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Postby aemathisphd » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:54 am)

ClaudiaRothenbach wrote:aemathisphd wrote:
... because there would be considerably more humidity in the room, the result would be a quicker release of gas.

This is wrong. See Rudolf Report, Chapter 7.2: http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/7.html#7.2.

Humidity retards the release of gas. :(
______________________________________


Of course Green concluded the opposite, but consider this as well: Cyanide crystals, when used to execute inmates in the U.S., were immersed in water to have the gas begin to release.

aemathisphd wrote:
... or at the very least because the Sonderkommando wore gas masks, the rooms could be re-entered quickly and the bodies removed.

This is wrong too. Hoess confessed that the SK guys ate and smoked during re-erntering.

It is not possible to eat or smoke wearing a gas mask. :(


And was Höss referring to those Sonderkommando operating in the chambers with ventilation or without? Or did he make a blanket statement? Please refer to this statement and somewhere I can find it. Thanks.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:08 pm)

Mathis said:
....But the fact is that the 1990 Cracow IFR report affirms enough cyanide on the walls of Krema II even after 45 years of exposure to corroborate homocidal gassing in that room.

Incorrect, The 'report' has been thoroughly refuted by Chemist, Germar Rudolf, in 'Critique of Claims Made by Robert Jan Van Pelt'.

the pertinent text:
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/RudolfOnVanPelt.html#

4. Analyses Conducted by the Polish Jan Sehn Institute
Prof. van Pelt is excessively quoting a paper published by three Polish Chemists in which they claimed of having refuted the Leuchter report.[van Pelt p. 307-312, 54] I have publicly accused them of a fraud and they never defended themselves against this accusation,[55] so it must me assumed that I am right. Without going into much chemical detail, let me summarize the main point which proof the dishonesty of these Polish authors:

The Poles claimed of not having understood how Iron Blue could possibly form in walls as a result of them being exposed to HCN gas:[54]
It is hard to imagine the chemical reactions and physicochemical processes that could have led to the formation of Prussian blue in that place

Hence, they did assume that the Iron Blue in the walls of the delousing chambers must have a different origin, e.g. stemming from paint:
We decided therefore to determine the cyanide ions using a method that does not induce the breakdown of the composed ferrum cyanide complex (this is the blue under discussion) […]

Although they knew about my well-founded suggestions for the mechanism involved when Iron Blue is being formed in walls as a result of gassings with HCN, and they knew of my arguments refuting claims that the Prussian Blue could stem from any sort of paint,[56] they decided to ignore them.
Hence, they chose a method of analysis which excluded the detection of Iron Blue compounds, and which eventually ended in analyses results presumably proving a similar cyanide content in both the delousing chambers and the alleged homicidal 'gas chambers', which allegedly proves the reality of the claims of mass gassing of human beings in homicidal 'gas chambers' in Auschwitz. A comparison of the results of the analyses made from brick and mortar samples taken by different persons shows this:

see chart at:
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/RudolfOnVanPelt.html#

In a subsequent correspondent with the Polish authors I asked for a scientific explanation for this and gave them irrefutable proof for the fact that Iron Blue can indeed be formed in walls when they are exposed to hydrogen cyanide gas.[57] The Polish authors were unable to give a scientific reason for their deliberate omission to detect Iron Blue and refused to admit that they had made a mistake.[58]
It is my conviction that it is not the task of any law court of this world to decide who is right and who is wrong in this struggle, as no judge will ever have the knowledge and the competence to decide this, and because finding the truth is exclusively a matter to be dealt with by the worldwide scientific community. But what can be judged by every reasonable man and woman is the question if these Polish authors behaved in a fair and formally correct way or not. Let me summarize their extremely unscientific and politically biased approach to the topic:

The most important task of a scientist is to try to understand what hasn't been understood so far. The Poles just did the opposite: they decided to ignore and exclude what they didn't understand (the formation or Iron Blue in walls expose to hydrogen cyanide).

The next important task of a scientist is to discuss other scientists' attempts to make understandable. The Poles just did the opposite: they decided to ignore and exclude from discussion what would perhaps made them (and others) understand.

Finally, in their article as well as in a letter to me, the Poles themselves stated that the purpose of their paper was to refute the "Holocaust Deniers" and to prevent Hitler and National Socialism from being whitewashed, i.e. their purpose was not to find out the truth, but to serve a political goal![58] Thus, they used unscientific methods in order to produce desired results for the purpose of achieving certain political goals.
Hence, they are scientific frauds. None of the three authors ever stood up against that accusation. Dr. Markiewicz died in 1997, and the remaining two co-authors have been silent about that ever since, like frauds hiding from being exposed.

Now, let me make some more remarks about the general value of the research conducted by the Poles which shows the massive lack of competence in general:

Even after an inquiry, they could not clarify completely what they mean with the following terms used in their paper: old/new, plaster/mortar, dry/moist. In order to make experiments reproducible, the exact conditions must be known, that is here:

How many hours/days/weeks/months/years "new/old" were the samples? Which materials were used to make the "plaster/mortar"?
To which conditions (temperature, humidity) were they expose before and during the gassing? Which amount of water is included in "dry/moist" samples?

When consulting the results of the experiments made by the Poles, one especially revealing fact can be observed: According to their results, the warm, dry, mostly CO2-free plaster (as it was present in delousing chambers) shows a level of 0.024 mg cyanide per kg sample material. The moist, cold, CO2-loaded mortar (as it would have been present in the supposed 'gas chambers' of crematoria II and III) shows a level of 0.388 mg/kg, a figure greater than that of the delousing chambers by a factor of 16.

Fact is that the Polish authors claim in their paper that the supposed homicidal 'gas chambers' had no higher reactivity than the delousing chambers with respect to formation of Iron Blue! They contradict their own results!

In 1991 paper the Poles claimed against all expert literature that Iron Blue deteriorates under the influence of environmental influences, especially when exposed to acid rain.[59] As a mater of fact, Iron Blue is most stable exactly in a slightly acid medium as provided by acid rain. The Poles could have easily recognized that by looking at the outer walls of the delousing facilities in Birkenau (those buildings have no gutters, and thus a lot of rain flows down the walls). These walls were exposed to acid rain for more than 50 years, yet they are covered with Iron Blue still today (see my report[3] for photos).

In contrary to that, most parts of the walls of the alleged 'gas chamber' of crematorium II, especially those spots where I took my samples, were protected from any environmental influence by the roof.

In a correspondence between Jan Markiewicz, Werner Wegner and me in 1990/91[60] J. Markiewicz openly admitted that he cannot explain the occurrence of blue patches on the exterior walls of the delousing facilities in Birkenau, and stated that it needs to be confirmed that this is indeed Iron Blue. While I did prove that these patches indeed consist of Iron Blue,[3] the Poles subsequently did nothing to verify this. This point would have disproved their theory that Iron Blue cannot be the result of a gassing with Zyklon B. They were aware of the problem since 1990/91, but chose not to solve it because this could have falsified their theory!

also see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=689

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:26 pm)

aemathisphd wrote: Here are the conditions for a typical delousing: A room with its furniture, empty of human beings, would be exposed to hydrogen cyanide escaping from Zyklon-B carrier, as the instructions recommended, for the course of 24 hours. This would allow for the carrier to release all the HCN therein and for the gas to then dissipate, making it safe to then enter the room.

Such conditions would necessarily leave serious amounts of HCN on the walls. In chambers specifically built for delousing, this would also account for deposits of Prussian blue on the walls.

The disinfestation procedures of barracks and disinfestation buildings are not the same.

The method used for the disinfestation of barracks is spelled out in:
Directives for the Use of Prussic Acid (Zyklon) for the Destruction of Vermin (Disinfestation), Translation of Document No. NI-9912 Office of Chief Counsel of War Crimes
Here the gassing (exposing to HCN) is specified between 6 and 32 hours, depending on the temperature and type of vermin etc.
The subsequent airing time of barracks is specified as at least 20hours. How frequently the barracks were disinfested I don't know(van pelt made some "guestimates"about this in his book about the Irving trial).

Quite different are the disinfestation instructions for disinfestation buildings like the Birkenau buildings BW5a & b, with forced air circulation and gas discharge.

This is explained in "Dienstanweisung für den Einsatz von Blausäure zur Entwesung im KL Gusen".(Instruction for the application of hydro-cyanide for the KL Gusen): Pre-heating of the disinfestation chamber to 25ºC, sealing of all openings, gassing with HCN for the duration of 2 hours, subsequent ventilation of 1 ½ to 2hours and testing for rest HCN traces before entering the chamber. These instructions were prepared by SS-Hauptsturmführer Dr. Krebsbach, who substituted for SS-Hauptsturmführer Dr. Eduard Wirths in Birkenau. It is in more detail explained by Mattogno in "Vierteljahreshefte für freie Geschichtsforschung", December 2003.

There are no instruction for the alleged homicidal gas chambers. If morgue 1 of Krema II was used as a homicidal gas chamber of hundreds of victims at a time with a total of 400,000 victims, with the gassing and ventilation time as testified by the various witnesses, it is assumed that the gas exposure was similar to the disinfestation chambers.

Here are the conditions for a typical homicidal gassing: A room bereft of furniture, but filled with human beings, would be exposed to a smaller amount of Zyklon-B. Because the temperature in the room would be perhaps as much as 20 degrees higher (Celsius) and because there would be considerably more humidity in the room, the result would be a quicker release of gas.

The morgues were not empty. They were equipped with benches to place the corpses on (this has something to do to circulate air around the corpse to slow down the decay).

The temperature rise inside the morgue with, say, 1000 people, depends on the time these people are inside the morgue and the original ambient temperature. The rise may only be 2 or 3ºC.
Increased humidity would slow down the HCN discharge fro Zyklon-B.

Because less cyanide is needed to kill humans than lice, the required exposure time would be significantly decreased.

But it takes some time for the HCN gas to get from the alleged introduction chute to the furthest corner of the morgue, especially with many people standing around the chutes and blocking the way. Remember: The morgue wasn't equipped with air circulation equipment.


And because the gas chambers had forced ventilation, or at the very least because the Sonderkommando wore gas masks, the rooms could be re-entered quickly and the bodies removed. This would leave relatively little cyanide residue on the walls. Nevertheless, the cyanide is there.

Camp commandant Höss testified, that the "Sonderkommando" entered the gas chamber with no gas masks, smoking cigarettes and eating.

fge

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Error

Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:41 pm)

claudia wrote:
Humidity retards the release of gas.

aemathisphd wrote:
Of course Green concluded the opposite, but consider this as well: Cyanide crystals, when used to execute inmates in the U.S., were immersed in water to have the gas begin to release.

This does not speak in Green's favour (he seems to be a political natural scientist). The process of gas release in US gas chambers was completely different than for Zyklon B.

Here is the process for Zyklon B: The gas has to be desorbed from the inner and outer surfaces of the granulate, after that diffuse through the pores of the granulate. Desorption cools down the temperature around each Zyklon B piece. This causes precipitation of water vapour on the Zyklon B pieces and retardes desorption as well as diffusion of HCN gas.

Here is the process for the US gas chambers: They used KCN crystalls and put them not into water but sulphuric acid. First the crystalls desolve, then HCN is released immediately because HCN is weaker than H2SO4. Humidity does not have remarkable influence in this case.

And Green really says that humidity would accelerate release of HCN from Zyklon B? Is that true? Sorry, but I can not understand that. Where did he purchase his diploma?

aemathisphd wrote:
And was Höss referring to those Sonderkommando operating in the chambers with ventilation or without? Or did he make a blanket statement? Please refer to this statement and somewhere I can find it. Thanks.


It was a blanket statement. In this paragraph the tortured Hoess tries to tell us that the SK guys did their gruesome work quite indifferent. See: Rudolf Hoess: "Kommandant in Auschwitz. Autobiographische Aufzeichnungen". Hrsg. Martin Broszat, 1983. page 126f

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