Why were there crematoria?

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David
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Why were there crematoria?

Postby David » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:56 am)

If German concentration camps were made to house political prisoners of the state, like America did the Japanese, why on earth did they install crematoria unless they expected many, many people to die.
And please don't give me that balogne that Germans were "efficient."

Interesting to note that America's Japanese camps did NOT have crematoria!

David

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:42 am)

Simple. To cremate those that died of disease, mostly typhus. It is a health risk to bury typhus victims (water contamination etc.) and the water table at Auschwitz-Birkenau is very high which made burial even more problematic. There were huge epidemics throughout Europe. Recall Anne Frank, she died of typhus, she was not gassed.

Assuming what you say is correct about there being no cremation facilities in American concentration camps for Japanese, these American concentration camps had no typhus problem that I know of; in spite of the fact that Japanese died in those camps.

It should also be said that at no time were all of the crematorium at Auschwitz-Birkenau online simultaneously. Shut downs, repairs, etc. were common. Some went off line as as others went online.

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Re: Why were there crematoria?

Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Apr 27, 2004 1:41 pm)

David wrote:[...]
Interesting to note that America's Japanese camps did NOT have crematoria!

David

What did the Americans do with the dead Japanese in their concentration camps?

fge

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Postby Sannhet » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:36 pm)

Also note that there were only 112,000 Japanese interned, as opposed to millions in Europe. But more importantly, the camps in Occupied Europe were far more densely populated, thereby making it easier for disease to ravage the internee population (especially when supplies were scare on account of the largest war of all time being fought nearby).

There were 112,000 Japanese internees, and there were 11 major 'Relocation Centers' (10 appear on the below map, omitted from the map is Crystal City in Texas which held several thousand Japanese and others). 112,000 / 11 = An average of 10,181 internees per camp (this figure is, if anything, too high, because many Japanese were at other detention facilities or being transported around at any given time). Compare this to the much higher total number of internees and the much higher population density at the Nazi camps, for example, at Gross-Rosen Camp alone, 125,000 prisoners were held, which is more than all the prisoners in all 11 of the Japanese Internment Camps put together!

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Postby Haldan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:55 pm)

Sannhet: Where did you get the 112,000 number from?
<?php if ($Holocaust == false ) {deny_repeatedly(); } else { investigate(); } ?>
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Postby Scott » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:57 pm)

Here's an article that might be of interest:

Deaths in German Concentration Camps.

During the period of epidemic typhus at Auschwitz from 1942-43 there were hundreds of deaths per day and the nearby Monowitz chemical plant had to be shut down for two months in the summer/autumn of 1942.

The Germans got control over the situation only to lose it at Belsen particularly at the end of the war. At the time of British liberation the death-rate was about 500 per day in a camp population that had swollen to 50 thousand with eastern evacuations. The able-bodied were assigned to labor projects but the sick had to be quarrantined. Belsen had only one pathetic crematoria oven since it had been a small transit camp until 1945. Anne Frank was one of the evacuations from Auschwitz to Belsen, where she died of typhus.

During the First World War about 30 million died of epidemic typhus. It is still a problem in any wartorn region and overcrowded jails, and there was a major outbreak in Burundi in 1997. Mortality is about 11 percent without antibiotics according to my research.

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Re: Why were there crematoria?

Postby Hyman » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Apr 27, 2004 6:59 pm)

David wrote:If German concentration camps were made to house political prisoners of the state, like America did the Japanese, why on earth did they install crematoria unless they expected many, many people to die. ...
David


The Germans probably did expect many people to die in the camps as there were dire shortages of food and medicine in WWII Europe, and camp inmates were last on the pecking order to receive same. Being underfed and exposed to the elements is not a recipe for good health.

But if the crematoria were built to accomodate a mass murder as alleged by the standard history, why would the Germans build crematory similar to those found in any city, suitable for cremating one or two corpses, rather than an incinerator suitable for the disposal of hundreds and thousands of corpses?

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Postby rrohde » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:00 pm)

Excellent post, Scott!

Very enlightening!

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:15 pm)

It should be noted that the building of crematoriums was an adaptation to epidemics and inmate increases. It was not as if the Germans planned all the crematoriums well in advance. As labor and war needs changed, the inmate population increased, which meant more typhus, which meant the need for increased cremation capability.

It also needs to be mentioned the numbers allegedly killed and cremated could not have been achieved with the crematorium in place. When looking at the numbers alleged vs. the timeframe alleged it was simply physically impossible.

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Postby Trojan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:26 pm)

Hannover wrote:It should be noted that the building of crematoriums was an adaptation to epidemics and inmate increases. It was not as if the Germans planned all the crematoriums well in advance. As labor and war needs changed, the inmate population increased, which meant more typhus, which meant the need for increased cremation capability.

It also needs to be mentioned the numbers allegedly killed and cremated could not have been achieved with the crematorium in place. When looking at the numbers alleged vs. the timeframe alleged it was simply physically impossible.

- Hannover


And some how this justifies the deaths of untold thousands? If the Germans created the conditions that caused their deaths, are they not responsible for the deaths?

Just how many died according to your enterpretation of the big H?

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Postby rrohde » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:23 pm)

Trojan wrote:
And some how this justifies the deaths of untold thousands? If the Germans created the conditions that caused their deaths, are they not responsible for the deaths?


Did the Germans really create those conditions?
Couldn't continued allied bombing have part in this somehow, too?

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Postby Trojan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:27 pm)

Scott wrote:During the period of epidemic typhus at Auschwitz from 1942-43 there were hundreds of deaths per day and the nearby Monowitz chemical plant had to be shut down for two months in the summer/autumn of 1942.


The allied bombing campaign did not start to have a direct affect on the Germany economy until late 1943-44. Sounds like the epidemics occurred prior to the major bombing campaign.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:35 pm)

The Germans did not create the conditions, disease & supply problems did. The Germans made great efforts to protect the inmates, hence Himmler's own orders, Zyklon-B delousing procedures, quarantines, sanitary cremations, hospitals at the labor camps, etc.

rrhode is correct, the illegal bombing/strafing of German civilian facilities & transports prevented the arrivals of much needed medicines and food.

As stated before, the inmates at Auschwitz were given a choice...stay and wait for the communist Red Army, or retreat with the Germans. The overwhelming majority chose to retreat with the Germans.

We are, however, getting off the topic of this thread.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:31 pm)

Trojan said:
The allied bombing campaign did not start to have a direct affect on the Germany economy until late 1943-44. Sounds like the epidemics occurred prior to the major bombing campaign.

Yes there were epidemics at various points, but that's where the crematoriums came into the picture; the Germans had to build them in stages as the epidemics manifested themselves.

As Scott points out, the camps to the west had very limited cremation capability and were unable to deal with the flood of inmates from the east, supplies were next to nil and typhus went largely unchecked.

These western camps were in utter chaos at the late stages of the war; as the Allies discovered...uncremated corpses (no fuel) which couldn't be buried because of danger of contaminating the water table; typhus was rampant...hence the gruesome photos we're shown over & over again. These epidemics killed Germans as well as Jews, prisoners or war, common criminals, laborers, etc.

see:
http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gcgvtyph.html

from the Encyclopedia Britannica (15th ed.):
"At the close of World War I the disease caused several million deaths in Russia, Poland and Romania, and during World War II it again caused epidemics, this time among refugees and displaced persons, particularly in the German concentration camps."

and:
'Germany in the spring months of April and May was an astounding sight, a mixture of humanity travelling this way and that, homeless, often hungry and carrying typhus with them…. The more territory that was uncovered, the greater was the number of reported cases; for Western Germany in the area of the American advance was rather uniformly seeded with typhus. To be sure, there were heavily involved communities and others lightly affected. There were great accumulations of cases in the concentration and prison camps, and in nearby small communities'

- Gordon, J. E. (1948). Louse-Borne Typhus Fever in the European Theater of Operations, U.S. Army 1945. In Rickettsial Diseases of Man, Ed. Forest Ray Moulton. Washington, DC: American Academy for the Advancement of Science

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Apr 30, 2004 1:04 pm)

Reminder to all, the topic of this thread is 'Why were there crematoria?'

Trojan take note.

Let's get back on topic.

Thanks, Moderator
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