Did Himmler state that plans were to exterminate Jews?

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Augustus
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Did Himmler state that plans were to exterminate Jews?

Postby Augustus » 5 years 9 months ago (Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:32 am)

The reason I ask is because I've run across an exterminationist on a history forum who claims he did so during his speeches at Posen; and I'd like to know whether this character is simply misinterpreting what Himmler actually said, or if in fact it's true. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: Did Himmler state that plans were to exterminate Jews?

Postby Hannover » 5 years 9 months ago (Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:11 pm)

No he did not. To say so is simple desperation.

See: http://codoh.com/library/document/891/
' Heinrich Himmler's Posen Speech from 04.10.1943
By Heinrich Himmler
Published: 1943-10-04
Given at Posen 4 October 1943
Translation of Document No. 1919-PS, Nuremberg Trial
Translated by Carlos Porter'

- In 1993, Robert Wolfe, supervisory archivist for captured German records at the National Archives admitted that a more precise translation of Ausrottung would be extirpation or tearing up by the roots. Wolfe also pointed out that in Himmler's handwritten notes for the Posen speech, that Himmler used the term, Judenevakuierung, or evacuation of the Jews, not extermination.

- The allegedly "secret" speech was so "secret" that a transcription was elaborated afterwards and conserved. Eventually, the Allies captured it.
On the official transcription of the speech conserved in the Nuremberg archives (page 64) the title of the chapter is "Die Judenevacuierung", the genuine document received the 1919-PS.

Search Himmler Posen speech at this forum for more.
example: Hannover @ Himmler's Speech on 'Extermination'?

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Re: Did Himmler state that plans were to exterminate Jews?

Postby Hektor » 5 years 9 months ago (Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:27 pm)

Augustus wrote:The reason I ask is because I've run across an exterminationist on a history forum who claims he did so during his speeches at Posen; and I'd like to know whether this character is simply misinterpreting what Himmler actually said, or if in fact it's true. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated....

I am writing from memory, so fellow forumites may correct me.
There are several problems with the Posen speech:
* It's claimed to be recorded on wax plates, while Himmler certainly had access to better technology then that.
* The pages dealing with "the Jewish question" are on different type of paper and different type of writing.
* The Himmler on the recording states that "Ausrottung" is in the party program, and that ordinary party members would understand it so. This is simply untrue and nonsense.

Himmler denied any extermination plans or conduct on a later stages when speaking to Norbert Masur, for example:
http://www.zwoje-scrolls.com/zwoje38/text18p.htm
Himmler was kind of the first Holocaust Denier.

There are however statements on what should happen to the Jews:
I ask you now, did the Governor General send you to Berlin for that conference; and if so, what was the subject of the conference?

BUEHLER: Yes, I was sent to the conference and the subject of the conference was the Jewish problem. I might say in advance that from the beginning Jewish questions in the Government General were considered as coming under the jurisdiction of the Higher SS and Police Leader and handled accordingly. The handling of Jewish matters by the state administration was supervised and merely tolerated by the Police.

During the years 1940 and 1941 incredible numbers of people, mostly Jews, were brought into the Government General in spite of the objections and protests of the Governor General and his administration. This completely unexpected, unprepared for, and undesired bringing in of the Jewish population from other territories put the administration of the Government General in an extremely difficult position.

Accommodating these masses, feeding them, and caring for their health-combating epidemics for instance-almost, or rather, definitely overtaxed the capacity of the territory. Particularly threatening was the spread of typhus, not only in the ghettos but also among the Polish population and the Germans in the Government General. It appeared as if that epidemic would spread even to the Reich and to the Eastern Front.

At that moment Heydrich's invitation to the Governor General was received. The conference was originally supposed to take place in November 1941, but it was frequently postponed and it may have taken place in February 1942.

Because of the special problems of the Government General I had asked Heydrich for a personal interview and he received me. On that occasion, among many other things, I described in particular the catastrophic conditions which had resulted from the arbitrary bringing of Jews into the Government General. He replied that for this very reason he had invited the Governor General to the conference. The Reichsfuehrer SS, so he said, had received an order from the Fuehrer to round up all the Jews of Europe and to settle them in the Northeast of Europe, in Russia. I asked him whether this meant that the further arrival of Jews in the Government General would cease, and whether the hundreds of thousands of Jews who had been brought into the Government General without the permission of the Governor General would be moved out again. Heydrich promised me both these things. Heydrich said furthermore that the Fuehrer had given an order that Theresienstadt, a town in the Protectorate, would become a reservation in which old and sick Jews, and weak Jews who could not stand the strains of resettlement, were to be accommodated in the future. This information left me definitely convinced that the resettlement of the Jews, if not for the sake of the Jews, then for the sake of the reputation and prestige of the German people, would be carried out in a humane fashion. The removal of the Jews from the Government General was subsequently carried out exclusively by the Police.

I might add that Heydrich demanded, particularly for himself, his office, and its branches, the exclusive and uninterrupted competence and control in this matter.

DR. SEIDL: What concentration camps in the Government General did you know about during your activity as State Secretary?

BUEHLER: The publications in the press during the summer of 1944 called my attention to the Maidanek camp for the first time. I did not know that this camp, not far from Lublin, was a concentration camp. It had been installed as an economic establishment of the Reichsfuehrer SS, in 1941 I think. Governor Corner came to visit me at that time and he told me that he had objected to the establishment of this camp when he talked to Globocznik, as it would endanger the power supply of the city of Lublin; and there were objections, too, on the part of the Police with regard to the danger of epidemics. I informed the Governor General of this and he in turn sent for Globocznik. Globocznik stated to the Governor General that certain workshops for the needs of the Waffen-SS at the front had been erected on that site by him. He mentioned workshops for dressing furs but he also mentioned a timber yard which was located there.

In these workshops for dressing furs, as I heard, fur articles from the collection of furs were altered for use at the front. At any rate, Globocznik stated that he had installed these workshops in compliance with Himmler's command.

The Governor General prohibited the erection of any further installations until all questions were settled with the police in charge of building and blueprints had been submitted to the state offices, in other words until all rules had been complied with, which apply to the construction of buildings. Globocznik never submitted these blueprints. With regard to the events inside the camp, no concrete information ever reached the outside. It surprised the Governor General just as much as it surprised me when the world press released the news about Maidanek.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/04-23-46.asp


Mysteriously, that sequence (except for the very first part) is missing on all the video footage of the Nurember trial I've seen. Please note that other 'defendants' there like Goering, Doenitz, Keitel, von Ribbentrop and others denied any knowledge of an extermination program.

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Re: Did Himmler state that plans were to exterminate Jews?

Postby hermod » 5 years 9 months ago (Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:03 pm)

Hektor wrote:* The Himmler on the recording states that "Ausrottung" is in the party program, and that ordinary party members would understand it so. This is simply untrue and nonsense.


True. If Himmler had said "'The Jewish people are being exterminated', says every party member, 'this is very obvious, it's in our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination, we're doing it" to 33 Obergruppenführers, 51 Gruppenführers and 8 Brigadeführers from the whole of the Reich listening to his speech, roars of laughter should have been heard in the recording. The 25-point program of the NSDAP only stipulated that Jews couldn't be German citizens (point 4) and demanded that every public office be filled only by non-Jews (point 6) and that recent Jewish immigrants "be forced immediately to leave the Reich" (point 8 ). Nothing about any physical liquidation of the Jews in the program of the NSDAP. Himmler would have looked like a clown if he had told to his experienced SS listeners that a physical liquidation of the Jews was in the program of the NSDAP.
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Re: Did Himmler state that plans were to exterminate Jews?

Postby Augustus » 5 years 8 months ago (Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:33 pm)

A belated, but nonetheless, better than never, thanks for your help.

The exterminationist in question has long since "booked"; come to the conclusion, apparently, that he's unable to continue with the debate -- and I owe all to you, knowledgable folks here at CODOH.
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Re: Did Himmler state that plans were to exterminate Jews?

Postby Hektor » 5 years 8 months ago (Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:54 pm)

hermod wrote:
Hektor wrote:* The Himmler on the recording states that "Ausrottung" is in the party program, and that ordinary party members would understand it so. This is simply untrue and nonsense.


True. If Himmler had said "'The Jewish people are being exterminated', says every party member, 'this is very obvious, it's in our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination, we're doing it" to 33 Obergruppenführers, 51 Gruppenführers and 8 Brigadeführers from the whole of the Reich listening to his speech, roars of laughter should have been heard in the recording.......
.... Notefully enough, from the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial records it appears that the higher ranking witnesses or accused did not know anything about an extermination program at the time. In fact the evidence reveals that Sonderbehandlung meant better treatment and that the purpose of the camp was Judenumsiedlung.

As I said recently, I'll post more on this once I've gone through more of the records.

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Re: Did Himmler state that plans were to exterminate Jews?

Postby ivam » 5 years 8 months ago (Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:26 pm)

Being german myself i can verify that Himmler uses the word "ausrotten" in his posen speeches which is often translated as exterminated, however it does literlay mean uprooting/getting rid of, it is not equal to physical annahilation. He used the same word in regards to "exterminating" degenerate music. Just as Hitler used the same word to exclaim how he got rid of the Marxists, and communists and other parties, and we all know he didnt physical kill them either.

to cling to these semantics is pure desperation of the exterminationists. On one side they say "hitler said he will exterminate all jews!" on the other hand they ignore anything else he says, that the holocaust is pure atrocity propaganda and that he never wanted the war.

they pick the cherries that out of context support their narrative but ignore the rest of bulk evidence that discredits their story.

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Re: Did Himmler state that plans were to exterminate Jews?

Postby borjastick » 5 years 8 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:54 am)

ivam, can you tell me what word would be used in normal German day to day language, when one would be, for example, wanting to get rid of weeds from the garden?
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Re: Did Himmler state that plans were to exterminate Jews?

Postby ivam » 5 years 8 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:08 am)

borjastick wrote:ivam, can you tell me what word would be used in normal German day to day language, when one would be, for example, wanting to get rid of weeds from the garden?


Ausrupfen, which would be the physical act of taking them and tearing them out of the ground.

in relation to alleged wording for the holocaust, Ausrotten wouldnt really be used to describe the physical liquidation of something, you would use Vernichtung (equivalent to Destruction) oder Ausloeschung (Annihilation) or Umbringen, which is a short version of "Um die ecke bringen" which sort of translates to "takeing someone around the corner" in methaporical sense to kill them without having a witness, but it can be plainly translated as killing.

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Re: Did Himmler state that plans were to exterminate Jews?

Postby hermod » 5 years 8 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:07 am)

ivam wrote:
borjastick wrote:ivam, can you tell me what word would be used in normal German day to day language, when one would be, for example, wanting to get rid of weeds from the garden?


Ausrupfen, which would be the physical act of taking them and tearing them out of the ground.

in relation to alleged wording for the holocaust, Ausrotten wouldnt really be used to describe the physical liquidation of something, you would use Vernichtung (equivalent to Destruction) oder Ausloeschung (Annihilation) or Umbringen, which is a short version of "Um die ecke bringen" which sort of translates to "takeing someone around the corner" in methaporical sense to kill them without having a witness, but it can be plainly translated as killing.


Anyway, Hitler also used the words "ausrottung" and "vernichtung" in connection with the Jewish question on several occasions and publicly (speeches). But the German anti-Nazi industrialist Eduard Schulte (who had a Jewish lover during WW2) didn't know at that time if Hitler wanted to kill all the Jews or not in spite of Hitler's public speeches dealing with an "ausrottung" of Jewry, and Schulte even conceded that "ausrotten" could have meant "resettling" ("Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained).

How can Holohoax promoters claim that most Germans knew nothing of the "Holocaust" during WW2 (even stating that "only about 200 or 300 people knew of that dreadful order of Himmler’s") AND "ausrottung" (a word often used by Hitler in speeches dealing with the Jewish question) only meant "mass murder"? That makes no sense. Were that time's Germans (listening to Hitler's speeches) unable to understand their own language? Or has some kind of crooks with an agenda lured people by distorting what Hitler, Himmler and others meant when they were talking about an "ausrottung" of Jewry?

Only 2 options:

1) "Ausrottung" meant mass murder and Himmler's Posen speech is useless because Hitler publicly used that word on numerous occasions anyway.

2) "Ausrottung" had various non-murderous meanings and Himmler's Posen speech is useless because Himmler was not talking about mass murder on that day.

(Option 2 is the correct one IMO.)

In both cases, Himmler's Posen speech is useless and of zero evidential value as far as an alleged mass murder Policy is concerned.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Did Himmler state that plans were to exterminate Jews?

Postby Kingfisher » 5 years 8 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:43 am)

Etymologically, the English equivalent of ausrottung is eradication (Latin: ex= out, radix=root) and of vernichtung is annihilation (Latin ad= to, nihil=nothing). Of course etymology doesn't always equate to current meaning, but this type of comparison via Latin is often a good guide to German-English equivalence.


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