The most important Photograph / corpse color

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Friedrich Paul Berg
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 6 years 5 months ago (Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:18 pm)

Regarding that "bluish" baby, do the simple test that I suggest. Enlarge the scale of viewing. Using Printscan and or Adobe Photoshop Elements or any number of other basic image enhancing programs--enlarge any portion of the image that you think looks "bluish," crop out all areas with warm flesh tones, and enlarge the remaining "blue" areas some more to fill up your computer screen. You will then see something that is NOT blue or bluish at all. "GRAY" is always "bluish" compared to pink. And, it is p-e-r-c-e-i-v-e-d that way by casual viewers, especially when it appears in only a small area surrounded by warm areas.

The wrist of the person holding the baby does not appear blue because there was no cyanosis or greyness present to begin with. No surprise there at all.

I suspect the baby was illuminated with one of the cyanosis detecting, bright blue bulbs that I discussed elsewhere--but I cannot be sure, of course. I will admit that perceptions are important--and conceivably there was a basis for someone p-e-r-c-e-i-v-i-n-g something to be blue or bluish without necessarily being an out-and-out liar. But try to separate perception--or possible perceptions of reality--before trying to talk about what is really there from what isn't. There is good reason for medical profesionals to use the terms "cyanotic" and "cyanosis" and it ain't because they want to confuse the general public. They use those terms because the subject is too tricky to be simply reduced to a matter of seeing blue or not seeing blue.

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The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 6 years 5 months ago (Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:30 pm)

One area of the baby that appeared bluish according to "Steve F" was the forehead which I have enlarged with the following result:

Image

It is safe to say that it is no longer bluish at all. However,as one stares at it--parts of the image do appear bluish compared to other parts, but that is what one should expect. All one r-e-a-l-l-y sees here are variations of pink. Whenever there are variations in such coloring, some areas will appear bluish compared to other areas--but they are all still just variations of pink.

So, the test really works and it rather easily (because of the technology we have today at our fingertips) R-E-F-U-T-E-S all of the pretentious lying and nonsense from people like Charles Provan. The color seems to correspond to or match: cc99cc. In other words, it is definitely a red color.

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Nazi Gassings Never Happened!
Last edited by Friedrich Paul Berg on Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Dresden » 6 years 5 months ago (Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:26 pm)

Good afternoon, Mr. Berg!

I know the "eyewitnesses" were not describing "bluish" corpses like Balsamo's baby; they were talking about visibly blue corpses, but your opponent in a debate is not gonna just throw in the towel.

The "blue corpse" argument is not your strongest point.....it's not the "slam dunk" I used to think it was.

If you use such statements as:

"I suggest that "suggestion" itself is another major factor as well, a kind of hypnosis"

"any perceived "blueness" is not really there at all--but is merely a psychological effect caused by contrast with surrounding normal skin colors"

"Any perceived "blue" coloring is merely a psychological illusion--however, many photos are generated today in hospital settings using special BLUE lights which give an unnatural blueish glow to almost everything,--just as in your picture"

"I suspect the baby was illuminated with one of the cyanosis detecting, bright blue bulbs that I discussed elsewhere--but I cannot be sure, of course"

"There is good reason for medical profesionals to use the terms "cyanotic" and "cyanosis" and it ain't because they want to confuse the general public. They use those terms because the subject is too tricky to be simply reduced to a matter of seeing blue or not seeing blue"

"It is safe to say that it is no longer bluish at all. However,as one stares at it--parts of the image do appear bluish compared to other parts"

"All one r-e-a-l-l-y sees here are variations of pink"

"Whenever there are variations in such coloring, some areas will appear bluish compared to other areas--but they are all still just variations of pink"

in your upcoming debate with Muehlenkamp.....he'll murderize you!

Stick to your strongest points, such as the idiocy of using diesel exhaust or Zyclon B when "Producer gas" was so readily available.

I'm afraid if you try to use the "corpse color" argument against Muehlenkamp, he'll have you "singin' the blues"!
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 6 years 5 months ago (Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:28 pm)

Well, Stevie F., I strongly disagree. Even if the "blue cyanosis" issue were not all that persuasive, the absence of "bright cherry RED" coloring in the statements of self-described "eyewitnesses" is.

Do you see that the enlarged baby forehead is NOT "bluish" at all, or not?

FPB
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Dresden » 6 years 5 months ago (Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:10 pm)

FPBerg said:

"Even if the "blue cyanosis" issue were not all that persuasive, the absence of "bright cherry RED" coloring in the statements of self-described "eyewitnesses" is"

I agree with you there; it's the "bluish" part of the argument that is not as strong.

"Do you see that the enlarged baby forehead is NOT "bluish" at all, or not?"

No, I still see what appears to be "bluish" patches, but that's beside the point.
Taking a small section and blowing it up is equivalent to "taking it out of context".

I still say if a person saw "Balsamo's baby" in the hospital and had to describe it later in one word....."bluish" would be a fair choice.
I'm not saying it would be the best choice; only that it would be a fair, or reasonable description.
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 6 years 5 months ago (Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:38 pm)

Well Stevie F., the "context" is enormously important. Change the context and the object color "appears" to change as well. That is exactly the point I am making also. The so-called "blue cyanotic" areas are N-O-T really blue at all. Cyanosis is never really blue AT ALL It merely appears to be blue if an area of interest is surrounded by bigger warm areas. Any objective reading of the actual color patch will show that. Using Adobe Elements, my reading is that the forehead area averages out to: cc99cc which is I believe called "pastel magenta RED." I hesitate somewhat to give that number and name because I am new at getting a number and name. Perhaps someone else has more skill at using some of the programs I have mentioned here.

But more importantly, this illusion ONLY works when the subject areas are small. An entire corpse would never appear to be blue generally, ever,--unless when viewed, perhaps, from a great distance with warm-colored surroundings.

Color balance and color perception can be tricky. In the bad old days before digital photography--if one wanted to photgraph something in color with great accuracy, one photgraphed the subject with a "neutral gray card" in the picture also illuminated with the same light as the subject. Professional photoshops would sell the neutral gray cards for about $1.00 a piece. Then in the processing lab, the printed image could be adjusted so that the card image matched the standard "neutral gray." When the card matched, the subject was considered matched also.

Here is a link to: cc99cc: http://www.colorcombos.com/CC99CC-hex-color It actually looks far more bluish than the enlargement from the babay's forehead and yet it is NOT bluish either.

FPBerg
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 5 years 2 days ago (Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:00 pm)

The current hoaxer rebuttal as to why nobody noticed the red/pink discoloration is because such ante mortem discoloration is too faint to be noticeable except by medically trained professionals and that post mortem discoloration didn't have time to develop before the cadavers were disposed of by cremation or burial. Another hoaxer claim is that cadavers placed in piles will not display any discoloration due to the pressure of the bodies pressing against one another. Perhaps Mr. Berg can produce some more examples of ante mortem discoloration. Truly, I can't understand how anyone can make such claims with a straight face but there it is.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 2 days ago (Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:19 am)


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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 5 years 2 days ago (Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:15 am)

Yes, that's the one, Werd. Do you know if Nessie's rather wacko claims have any support on other sites or is she just a RODOH phenomena? My first instinct is to simply ignore her/him but one must remember that there are lots of other accepted hoaxer claims that are even more bizarre than Nessie's.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby borjastick » 5 years 2 days ago (Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:26 am)

I had a quick look at the conversation concerned on RODOH and yes the claims are odd and full of rude comments and aggression: nothing unusual on RODOH I think as it tends to be full of nasty bully boys.

The issue for me is not which argument makes sense and has logic and science behind it, that is quite clear, but at what point if at all do these people step back and say 'ah now I've seen enough to at least cast doubt on the gassing claims etc'.

Most of us started life as believers, we were told what to believe in school and only changed our minds when we investigated things with an open mind.

Perhaps the likes of Nessie know the truth but just cannot bring themselves to admit it.
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'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 5 years 2 days ago (Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:45 am)

Atigun wrote:The current hoaxer rebuttal as to why nobody noticed the red/pink discoloration is because such ante mortem discoloration is too faint to be noticeable except by medically trained professionals and that post mortem discoloration didn't have time to develop before the cadavers were disposed of by cremation or burial. Another hoaxer claim is that cadavers placed in piles will not display any discoloration due to the pressure of the bodies pressing against one another. Perhaps Mr. Berg can produce some more examples of ante mortem discoloration. Truly, I can't understand how anyone can make such claims with a straight face but there it is.


- "such ante mortem discoloration is too faint to be noticeable except by medically trained professionals"

So holo-witnesses could see nonexistent colors (such as blue, black, black-blue, green, etc.), but they were unable to see faint colors (such as pale pink). :lol:

And if Sonderkommandos had been at the right place to observe ante mortem discoloration, that would have meant that they were inside the gas chambers and they would be dead now.

- "post mortem discoloration didn't have time to develop before the cadavers were disposed of by cremation or burial"

As 6 days would have been needed to cremate all the dead bodies gassed in the "gas chamber" of Krema II with all the ovens running nonstop, that's a total nonsense. Moreover, death comes from the formation of carboxyhemoglobin (carbon monoxide poisoning) or the inhibition of the enzyme cytochrome c oxydase (cyanide poisoning). Carboxyhemoglobin is a cherry-red molecule and the inhibition of cytochrome c oxydase results in increased venous hemoglobin oxygen saturation (also causing a red discoloration). So people gassed with carbon monoxide (Reindhardt camps, Chelmno and Majdanek) or cyanide gas (Auschwitz and Majdanek) should theorically have looked pink-red even prior to their death, because the formation of carboxyhemoglobin or the increasing of hemoglobin oxygen saturation already occured while they were dying.

- "cadavers placed in piles will not display any discoloration due to the pressure of the bodies pressing against one another"

The red discoloration is more intense in body parts where red cells sedimented after death occured. So bodies pressing against one another would have changed nothing to discoloration. The only way to prevent bright red blotches from appearing would have been by gassing people in outer space with zero gravity or microgravity.

Image
Last edited by hermod on Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 1 day ago (Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:22 pm)

With all of the numbers of Jews that were claimed to have died, combined with the minimal amount of sonderkommandos hauling the bodies manually to pits that were already dug by an excavator, as well as the distance needed to get the bodies to the pits to be buried, it is INSANE to think that even if this storyline happened, that some of the bodies did not have enough time to develop that cherry red colour.

This pathetic attempt to poke holes in the theory of Fritz Berg fails miserably. Especially considering Wiernik's claim that the bodies were yellow.
Weirnick said yellow corpses? Correct Polish translations...
Holocaust controversies crap aside that even tricked Thomas Kues in 2011, Mattogno's 2013 rebuttal as to what the Polish really said closes the case.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 1 day ago (Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:56 pm)

The problems with denier/revisionist arguments.
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... 8&start=40

nessie
That no academic (that we are aware of) has spent the time to write a book specifically dealing with all of the denier/revisionist arguments does not mean they cannot be refuted. That is a non sequitur.


been-there
Again deceit/and or stupidity. I did not claim they could not be. I used the words "appears to be" and "apparently". Plus it was intended tongue in cheek. Whatever, the fact remains that no such published refutation yet exists after so many decades. A curious omission if it were so easy to do, as is maintained.


nessie
Nice back peddle. So you now accept that academics have dealt with all denier/revisionist claims. You just think it should have been done by one person (or maybe different authors for each point) in one book and think it is odd that has not been done.


been-there
Comprehension deficit. :roll:
No Nessie, I am not "accepting that academics have dealt with all denier/revisionist claims." The complete opposite is the case. I am saying that after fifty to sixty odd years of revisionist literature, there exists not a single book which refutes the revisionist arguments. And I am saying that those that make a pretence of doing that merely attack the revisionists themselves or attack strawman misrepresentations and distortions of the actual revisionist arguments.
As I understand it, mainstream historians intentionally ignore these arguments or if they do acknowledge them resort to the two fallacious arguments just mentioned. They argue that to attempt to refute them is to give them a credibility that they do not deserve, which I think is a completely intellectually, bogus response. One which I regard as indicative of the whole irrationality of approach to this period of history. No other event in history gets such ludicrously unreasonable reverence.


That was one exchange. here is another.

turnagain
Au contraire mon Nessie, there are academics who do agree with me. Let's start with Matogno, Kues and Graf. Don't forget Professor Butz. He was the first academic to knock the biscuit wheels off your holyhoax gravy train. LOL. BTW, Nessie, why are you calling my facts lies? Are you saying that those 500,000 cadavers weren't buried? Are you saying that someone has found the 10 meter deep mass graves as described by Wiernik? Why are you calling me a liar, Nessie?


nessie
Please evidence the qualifications that Mattogno, Kues, Graf and Butz have. Please show how they are linked to the revisionist/denier work they have done.

The rest of your post is pure strawman.


turnagain
Gee, Nessie, do ya' mean that you've never heard of those guys? For all you know they could just be some street bums hitting on you for some spare change. You really didn't know that they are all multilingual, have attended universities and have published books? Suuuure, Nessie, I believe that. If you want "evidence" simply type their names one at a time into your search bar. Maybe you haven't heard of them but there are hundreds of thousands who have. Arthur Butz is a tenured professor at Northwestern University, school of Engineering. Butz was the guy who gave you hoaxers your first big kick in the goolies with his book, "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century."

Of course your claim that you don't know nothin' about those guys or what they've done is pure smoke and bullshit. There are plenty of academics who agree with me both publicly and in private opinion. Like most of your failures to answer even the most reasonable question or statement of fact, "strawman" is just another of your patented weasel dodges. Sorry, Nessie, you lose again.



Wow. I can't believe this is what they have left. To deny that Mattogno Graf and Kues have any qualifications to talk about the holocaust. To deny that they have been to more archives than their adversaries have and have probably forgotten more documents than others have read. To deny that they are multi lingual and speak more languages than their adversaries.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 5 years 1 day ago (Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:58 am)

Werd wrote:Wow. I can't believe this is what they have left. To deny that Mattogno Graf and Kues have any qualifications to talk about the holocaust. To deny that they have been to more archives than their adversaries have and have probably forgotten more documents than others have read. To deny that they are multi lingual and speak more languages than their adversaries.


Anyway, the qualification thing is just a trick to avoid any debate with people who have politically-incorrect views. One should always look at the arguments of others, not at the diplomas that are pinned on their walls. For instance, the greatest French expert on the Russian-Soviet military airplanes in the first half of the 20th century is a pop singer named Herbert Léonard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_L%C3%A9onard). He 's called "the greatest French historian of the Soviet aviation industry in the first half of the twentieth century" ("le plus grand historien français de l’industrie aéronautique soviétique de la première moitié du XXème siècle") and "one of the leading experts on the warplanes produced until 1950 in the USSR" ("l’un des experts de premier plan des avions de combat produits jusqu’en 1950 en URSS") by the French-speaking people interested in warplanes. It's now said that his 480-page book "Les avions de chasse russes et soviétiques des 1915 à 1950" "eclipsed everything that had been written before and now constitutes the ultimate reference". And his 464-page revised version "Chasseurs russes et soviétiques de 1915 à 1950" is even better and acclaimed by professionals and experts. Herbert Léonard left school when he was only 15 years old, but he's a "renowned expert on Russian and Soviet aircraft" ("un spécialiste reconnu de l'aviation russe et soviétique" - http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_L%C3%A9onard) in spite of that.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Zulu » 5 years 1 day ago (Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:20 pm)

hermod wrote:
- "post mortem discoloration didn't have time to develop before the cadavers were disposed of by cremation or burial"

As 6 days would have been needed to cremate all the dead bodies gassed in the "gas chamber" of Krema II with all the ovens running nonstop, that's a total nonsense. Moreover, death comes from the formation of carboxyhemoglobin (carbon monoxide poisoning) or the inhibition of the enzyme cytochrome c oxydase (cyanide poisoning). Carboxyhemoglobin is a cherry-red molecule and the inhibition of cytochrome c oxydase results in increased venous hemoglobin oxygen saturation (also causing a red discoloration). So people gassed with carbon monoxide (Reindhardt camps, Chelmno and Majdanek) or cyanide gas (Auschwitz and Majdanek) should theorically have looked pink-red even prior to their death, because the formation of carboxyhemoglobin or the increasing of hemoglobin oxygen saturation already occured while they were dying.


Tiny lift Krema II 488.03.jpg

Source Pressac ATO p. 488 http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0488.shtml

Considering the kind of lift used at Krema II to transport batches of 2000 to 3000 corpses ( see e.g Gabbai testimony) it seems evident that the so called post mortem discoloration had time to appear before all the victims were lifted after each gassing operation. Mattogno showed that this apparatus, which was installed temporarily until the due 1500 kg elevator be delivered, was in fact never substituted. That means that 400,000 to 500,000 corpses were supposedly transported by such 300 kg lift (661 lbs).


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