The most important Photograph / corpse color

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Zulu
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Zulu » 5 years 3 months ago (Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:57 pm)

Werd wrote:Wow. I can't believe this is what they have left. To deny that Mattogno Graf and Kues have any qualifications to talk about the holocaust. To deny that they have been to more archives than their adversaries have and have probably forgotten more documents than others have read. To deny that they are multi lingual and speak more languages than their adversaries.

Raul Hilberg
Academic career
After returning to civilian life, Hilberg chose to study political science, earning his B.A. at Brooklyn College in 1948.
...
Hilberg went on to complete first an M.A. (1950), and then a Ph.D (1955), at Columbia University,[10] where he entered the graduate program in Public Law and Government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raul_Hilberg


Others with no academic degree in History:

Jean-Claude Pressac (Pharmacist)

and French "Historians" like

Leon Poliakov (Law and Litterature with no degree) http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9on_Poliakov

Georges Wellers (Chemistry) http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Wellers

As we can see, the double standard policy is the rule in Wikipedia when the issue is the attribution of the title of "Historian" for revisionists no matter the scholarship level of their works. For instance Pr. Faurisson who has produced more scholarship work in history (including the re/discovery of the plans of the crematories of Auscwhitz) than Poliakov and Wellers together doesnt deserve the title of Historian according with the gatekeepers.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Hannover » 5 years 3 months ago (Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:03 pm)

Zulu:
Considering the kind of lift used at Krema II to transport batches of 2000 to 3000 corpses ( see e.g Gabbai testimony) it seems evident that the so called post mortem discoloration had time to appear before all the victims were lifted after each gassing operation. Mattogno showed that this apparatus, which was installed temporarily until the due 1500 kg elevator be delivered, was in fact never substituted. That means that 400,000 to 500,000 corpses were supposedly transported by such 300 kg lift (661 lbs).
The actual plans shows a hand drawn elevator that was about 4 ft. X 9 ft. That's why I say "If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't."

for more read my text below the image at:
Hannover @ D. Keren lies about open 'gas chamber' doors / see IMAGES!

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship.
Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The Internet has demolished the lies. The tide is turning.


- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 2 months ago (Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:46 pm)

Page 32.


Turnagain
So, you're back to ESSENTIALLY declaring that no red discoloration appears ante mortem and all cadavers were disposed of before livor mortis became visible.


Nessie
Yet again you are not reading what I have actually said. So here is another attempt to get through to you;

1 - some bodies may display a slight discolouration ante-mortem, but it is barely noticeable, hence no medical text uses discolouration as a symptom to look for in diagnosing CO poisoning.


Turnagain
No, you're lying. The photos of cadavers displaying ante mortem red/pink discoloration showed pronounced and very noticeable discoloration. The pathologist's handbook declared such discoloration symptomatic of lethal CO poisoning. Your links went to consumer advice sites that referenced non-lethal CO poisoning. Your claim that ante mortem discoloration is barely discernible to the unaided human eye is bullshit.


Nessie
2 - I am arguing all bodies were disposed of before cherry red, fixed lividity became visible. You kept on going on that that meant all bodies were disposed of within 20 minutes, but the medical texts show that is the minimum time for it to start to appear. It can also take up to 3 hours and it takes a minimum of 6 hours to become fixed. So there is a big time gap between death and thousands of bodies lying around with bright cherry red lividity showing as per Berg's claims.


Turnagain
So, Nessie, you're back to claiming that ante mortem red/pink discoloration is invisible to the unaided human eye. Apparently you are also saying that the red discoloration of livor mortis is unnoticeable for at least until after all the cadavers, all ~ 2,000,000 of them were disposed of either by cremation or burial. You've never explained why all the Jews gassed after March, 1943, had to be buried before the red discoloration appeared. Why did the Germans do that, Nessie? You said that they did. Are you going to sweep that down your own little personal memory hole and indignantly exclaim, "I never did no such thing?"


Turnagain
You say that Berg's claims about the symptomatic red discoloration of CO poisoning is invalid because the body he uses as an example shows discoloration from 6-12 hours post mortem. How do you know that?


Nessie
Because the medical texts tell me it takes at least 6 hours before lividity is at its most obvious and fixed.


Turnagain
In Wiernik's "A Year In Treblinka" he unequivocally states (ch. 7) that piles of cadavers were left out overnight at TII. Why didn't they develop red/pink livor mortis? Why didn't Wiernik or his German soldier escort notice it and remark upon it? In a different chapter, Wiernik claimed that the corpses turned yellow from the CO gassing. Why wouldn't he notice if the cadavers turned red? What evidence do you have that all the bodies were disposed of before anyone anyone noticed any red discoloration? Are you saying that since nobody noticed the signature red discoloration of CO poisoning it proves that all the cadavers were disposed of before the red discoloration appeared?


Nessie
I have show medical texts which state moving a body delays lividity forming and pressure on a body leaves blanching as the blood is squeezed away from or cannot get to the skin's surface as the capillaries collapse. So piles of bodies exerting pressure on each other that have been moved will not show obvious cherry red lividity on the skin. Yes I am saying that the body disposal happened before the bodies were all turning cherry red such that witnesses would remark on such.


Turnagain
Again, you make another unsupported assertion that it's impossible for cadavers placed in a pile to display any discoloration from either ante or post mortem. Oh, that's right, you said that ante mortem discoloration is invisible to the unaided human eye for at least long enough to get all the bodies cremated. That's another one ridiculous enough to qualify for a Cadillac spaceship award.


Charming, isn't it, folks? :lol:

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 2 months ago (Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:57 pm)

I jumped back to page 30 and found this.

Turnagain.
Again you do nothing but repeat your spurious bullshit. There has been two photos posted of ante mortem discoloration in just the last few pages. Wiernik stated that the new 7x7 meter gas chambers could hold as many as 1,200 people and there were 10 chambers in the new building that he helped build. Now you claim that as many as 12,000 cadavers could be removed from the gas chambers and cremated within a time span of 20 minutes and the onset of livor mortis. Tell us just exactly how that was done, Nessie. Or are you, as usual, going to claim an impossibility and then defend it by claiming that anyone who doesn't believe your Cadillac spaceship story is arguing a "fallacy of incredulity." That's like the story of the Nazi enclave beneath the ice at the South Pole and anyone who doesn't believe that is "arguing from a fallacy of incredulity." You need some new weasel dodges.


Further down, Nessie says this.
Turnagain wrote:
Again you do nothing but repeat your spurious bullshit. There has been two photos posted of ante mortem discoloration in just the last few pages. Wiernik stated that the new 7x7 meter gas chambers could hold as many as 1,200 people and there were 10 chambers in the new building that he helped build. Now you claim that as many as 12,000 cadavers could be removed from the gas chambers and cremated within a time span of 20 minutes and the onset of livor mortis.



Please show where I made those alleged claims.


At which point as you can see, Turnagain had to throw it back in his face what Wiernik claimed. Back to page 32, just at the bottom.

Turnagain.
According to Wiernik, there were as many as 12,000 people gassed at a time in Treblinka's new gas chambers that he helped to construct. Each chamber was 7x7 meters. Each chamber could hold as many as 1,000 to 1,200 people and there were 10 chambers. So, your 200 man sonderkommando had to move 3 cadavers per minute to meet your self imposed 20 minute deadline. That works out to one (1) corpse every 20 seconds, Nessie. Don't forget that at least the first few thousand of those bodies had to be sorted by gender, age and obesity to obtain the proper mix for a complete cremation. Tell us again why the Germans gave a damn why anyone saw the dead Jews turning red since, in any event, they were all going to be cremated. Tell us how placing cadavers randomly in a pile will somehow result in an even surface pressure over 100% of all the cadavers. Tell us again why anyone should believe your "I drove my Cadillac Coupe de Ville to the moon" irrational fantasies.


I would caution this is a strawman because 20 minutes is a minimum but Nessie is arguing not twenty minutes, but something else. Perhaps turnagain missed it up at the top of page 32. I will post it again.

Nessie
2 - I am arguing all bodies were disposed of before cherry red, fixed lividity became visible. You kept on going on that that meant all bodies were disposed of within 20 minutes, but the medical texts show that is the minimum time for it to start to appear. It can also take up to 3 hours and it takes a minimum of 6 hours to become fixed. So there is a big time gap between death and thousands of bodies lying around with bright cherry red lividity showing as per Berg's claims.

So now the question becomes, did all of the bodies that weren't under any pressure from other bodies - something that apparently stalls the redness from appearing - make it into the graves before three hours? Is that even possible with the numbers of sonderkommando available? And what methods were they using anyway? Anyone want to jump in? I am trying to simply the debate here because at rodoh it's like a bunch of chickens running around without heads.

Anyway, when Turnagain, laid out the math saying that at Treblinka there were 10 chambers at one time and each one at campacity could hold 1000 to 1200 leading to the huge total of 12000 people each gassing round in those each 7mX7m chambers, how does Nessie respond on page 33?

Where did Wiernik say 12,000 people were gassed at a time?

So because Wiernik didn't say it explicitly, Turnagain has no business engaging in math like that putting the absurdities out there for Nessie to deal with. And when Turnagain refuses to believe such nonsense because of things like this...

So, your 200 man sonderkommando had to move 3 cadavers per minute to meet your self imposed 20 minute deadline. That works out to one (1) corpse every 20 seconds, Nessie. Don't forget that at least the first few thousand of those bodies had to be sorted by gender, age and obesity to obtain the proper mix for a complete cremation.

Because fat women had to go on the bottom and all the corpses had to have their sexual and anal orifices studied and jaws broken for gold teeth ALL BEFORE being dragged to the burial pit...because Turnagain refuses to believe in such nonsense and asks how it was possible, Nessie screams, ARGUMENT FROM INCREDUILTY, ARGUMENT FROM INCREDULITY.

Here is how I think Nessie is arguing:

The chambers are 7mX7m. There are ten of them. This is according to Wiernik. Wiernik also says that 1000 to 1200 can fit in these chambers at a time. So that is 10000 to 12000 each gassing session with all chambers in use. The 200 sonderkommandos drag them all out and pile up some of them but spread out the rest because they have to check the mouth, anus and vagina for valuables. Then they have to be moved to the pit. But the corpses are checked quickly enough that the moving of the corpses begins and this prevents the red colour from showing up in the skin. Even if this was not all accomplished in under three hours, or even six hours, nessie would claim it does not matter because the dragging of the corpses by human hands to the burial pits, or even the moving of them into the deep pits by an excavator, prevent the redness from showing up in the bodies.

That is Nessie's argument in a nutshell.

I still have yet to see an explanation as to why Wiernik claimed yellow corpses. Nessie says he answered Turnagain's inquiries into why people said yellow black and blue for corpses colours. But I haven't found it in that massive thread yet. It was put to him on page 29 by been-there he quoted it in his response on page 30 and for the next five pages (the topic is at 35 pages now), he avoided answering it, claiming he already had.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 2 months ago (Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:22 pm)

Page 26
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... &start=250

Turnagain
I asked you if the characteristic red/pink discoloration could appear ante mortem. You said "yes." Then, in your following post you claim that no red/pink discoloration appears for at least 20 minutes. Perhaps I'm confused but which is it, Nessie? Can discoloration appear before death or not? Why is asking you a question a "fallacy?" How do you know that all the cadavers were disposed of before the red/pink discoloration of CO poisoning appeared? Why would the Germans give a damn if somebody noticed that the dead Jews were turning red? Eyewitnesses claimed that the poison gas caused the victims to turn many different colors. For example, Wiernik said that the cadavers turned yellow. Did they turn yellow before they turned red? Is that question a fallacy of some kind, Nessie.


Nessie
The evidence states that some people can look sun burned or ruddy prior to death. However, none of the sites such as the NHS and CDC I have linked to, nor anywhere else for that matter that I can find, has skin tone being red as a sign of CO poisoning. Here are the links again

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Carbon-mon ... ptoms.aspx (new window)

http://www.cdc.gov/co/faqs.htm (new window)

and another for good measure

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/health_advic ... noxide.htm (new window)

So no mention of skin tone and various references to how difficult it is to diagnose as symptoms mimic others, so I am saying the skin showing sunburn like is rare and hard to spot, beyond being see as someone who had sunburn.

The discolouration that Berg references comes after death, his cherry red. It takes at least 20 minutes and up to three hours to even start to appear and is not at its full extent for 6 to 12 hours after death. That is why I am saying no one noticed cherry red as by then bodies had been buried or burned, as per what eye witnesses state. They were not given much time to do their work as so many were being killed at a time.

As for other colours mentioned, my suggestion would be find a pathologist and as them. Or do some research yourself. I will also look for reasons why myself.


Turnagain
I see that you're back to the usual hoaxer weasel dodge of citing links to non-fatal examples of CO poisoning. Scott has already posted photos of non livor mortis caused red/pink discoloration of cadavers so I won't bother duplicating his efforts. At any rate, what proof do you have that all ~ 2,000,000 people who were murdered with CO were disposed of either by burning or burying in 20 minutes or less? Explain, too, why the Germans would give a fat rat's patootie if someone noticed that the dead Jews were turning red? Why would that concern them?


Nessie
And I have explained that the occasional person who looked like they had sun burn is not going to be so odd as to make it noticeable. Plus non fatal is irrelevant as the people we are discussing were dead.

Strawman that they were cremated or buried in 20 minutes or less. The evidence of cherry red tells us that 20 minutes is the minimum time needed. The proof I have of the process are the eye witnesses to the process.

Why do I have to explain why Nazis would care or if they were concerned if dead Jews were turning red? The only thing red is the red herring fallacy you have just used.






page 27.
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... &start=260

Turnagain
Only "a few" turned "ruddy" or "red like a sunburn." Uh-huh, so, as a percentage, how many turned red? Give us a link to a site concerned with FATAL cases of CO poisoning only not your hoaxer weasel dodge of citing non fatal cases of CO poisoning. Prove conclusively that ante mortem red/pink discoloration is NOT a perceptible phenomena to laymen. Your claim that the characteristic discoloration was noticed only by a chemist proves only that he could lie more accurately than other hoaxers. Neither does your weasel dodge explain why the eyewitnesses would claim that the cadavers were blue, green, yellow, etc. instead of "ruddy" or "sunburned."

You offer nothing but unsupported assertions for your bogus excuses then try to claim that anyone who asks for data or other proofs is "arguing" from some fallacy. You essentially argue from the assertion of fantasies and impossibilities.


Nessie
I have not seen a percentage as to how many people turn ruddy. I am saying it is a few because I have not found any reference to such in numerous descriptives of the symptoms of CO poisoning. If it was common, or even occasional, I would suggest it would be referenced for people to assist in recognising people with CO poisoning. That reasoning is further evidenced by the chemist recognising the signs, but in people who had just died. No other witness references it so it stands to reason it is not noticeable.

I have already said do some research or ask a pathologist as to why witnesses mention other colours of lividity. It may be that those who die from CO poisoning do not just eventually go cherry red. Other colours of lividity may appear. I do not know the answer.


My claims have been evidenced when I have made them in previous posts. You have repeatedly shown that you do not bother to look at the links and properly read my responses.


Same page.

Scott
I would say that all of the cadavers look "sunburned" if they absorbed enough carbon monoxide to kill them. The only exceptions would be if the corpses have had time for substantial decomposition. That none of the "eye-witnesses" saw anything of this salient feature from CO or HCN poisonings like this is telling.

Wiernik saw yellow, or maybe he meant "jaundiced" in the metaphorical sense. Why he would think jaundiced means anything besides yellow is a mystery. Of course the most likely explanation is that he just made it up based on what he thought gassed corpses would look like. I mean, mustard gassed corpses must look like "mustard," right?

Anyway, with non-fatal cases of CO poisoning they still look like they have a cherry-red sunburn, but the difference is that there metabolism because to remove the CO from the blood rapidly if they don't die. So emergency responders can miss or misinterpret this ruddy complexion if they don't know what to look for.

In the case of corpses killed by CO intoxication, the carboxyl-hemoglobin remains what it is. And that is cherry-red. I can't see why any of the lie-witnesses failed to notice this--if they were telling the truth (wink).


Nessie
Why is the skin tuning red not mentioned in any list of symptoms to look for? Can you link to any source that backs up your claims?


turnagain
So, Nessie, you're back to denying that cadavers that died from CO poisoning display any red discoloration before the onset of livor mortis. I'm sure that you have an appropriate weasel dodge for that statement.


Scott
The blood has already turned red once the patient has absorbed dangerous amounts of CO. Presumably the emergency responders have already removed the patient from the source of the CO poisoning before they are even examined--if they are still living, that is. The blood is not going to get any redder.

It may be that the CO poisoning case is mild, and with or without other symptoms the patient might still need some medical treatment beyond removal from the source of the CO.

This treatment usually consists of "carb-oxygen," or "carbogen," which is bottled oxygen with a higher percentage of carbon dioxide (CO2) added. The carbon dioxide (CO2) stimulates respiratory rate above normal to force more otherwise pure oxygen from the bottle into the blood as the patient's hemoglobin begins to trade oxygen for the carbon monoxide (CO) that it would prefer.

The literature clearly mentions the cherry-pink coloring of CO cases. What it doesn't do is encourage emergency responders to exclude possible partial CO-poisonings just because nobody has noticed the cherry-red coloring of the contaminated blood.

But when you are dealing with deaths from CO or even near-deaths, the subjects will present that cherry-red carboxylhemoglobin blood because that is what killed them (or may still do so). Nearly every corpse so killed is going to present in this way, assuming they have fair complexions at least. This should not be confused with a ruddy "healthy" complexion, even if the patient has not yet died.

With corpses that are less fresh they will present with the signs of livor mortis from the pooling of the blood. And what that means is that where the cherry-pink blood settles out there will be blanched (whitened) areas of the body, and the color contrast will be even more striking--but not any redder. The blood will then thicken like glue but it will remain abnormally red until substantial decomposition occurs.

I have perused all of the forensic medical literature on this for at least ten years now and it is pretty much the same. Find me a doctor that disagrees with what I just said.


Nessie
Again, why is the skin tuning red not mentioned in any list of symptoms to look for? Can you link to any source that backs up your claims?

You have yet to establish that there is a clearly noticeable, out of the ordinary red/pink/ruddy colouration of the dead from gassing by CO. You suggest it, but you do not actually evidence it. In effect you are doing the same as Berg, you both suggest the colour change is obvious and since no one noticed it it did not happen. But there is another possibility which is that the colour change is barely noticeable and unremarkable.




So what's the summary? Nessie lied when he said he successfully answered/explained why some people claimed to have seen yellow corpses like in Wiernik's book. Is it any wonder he gets accused of being a weasel?

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 5 years 2 months ago (Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:35 pm)

Zulu wrote:
hermod wrote:
- "post mortem discoloration didn't have time to develop before the cadavers were disposed of by cremation or burial"

As 6 days would have been needed to cremate all the dead bodies gassed in the "gas chamber" of Krema II with all the ovens running nonstop, that's a total nonsense. Moreover, death comes from the formation of carboxyhemoglobin (carbon monoxide poisoning) or the inhibition of the enzyme cytochrome c oxydase (cyanide poisoning). Carboxyhemoglobin is a cherry-red molecule and the inhibition of cytochrome c oxydase results in increased venous hemoglobin oxygen saturation (also causing a red discoloration). So people gassed with carbon monoxide (Reindhardt camps, Chelmno and Majdanek) or cyanide gas (Auschwitz and Majdanek) should theorically have looked pink-red even prior to their death, because the formation of carboxyhemoglobin or the increasing of hemoglobin oxygen saturation already occured while they were dying.


Tiny lift Krema II 488.03.jpg

Source Pressac ATO p. 488 http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0488.shtml

Considering the kind of lift used at Krema II to transport batches of 2000 to 3000 corpses ( see e.g Gabbai testimony) it seems evident that the so called post mortem discoloration had time to appear before all the victims were lifted after each gassing operation. Mattogno showed that this apparatus, which was installed temporarily until the due 1500 kg elevator be delivered, was in fact never substituted. That means that 400,000 to 500,000 corpses were supposedly transported by such 300 kg lift (661 lbs).


Anyway, lifted out of the "gas chambers" in a few hours or not, it would have been impossible to cremate 2,000 to 3,000 corpses in such a short time. So the Sonderkommando guys couldn't have failed to see pink-red bodies. And as there were no places to store the dead bodies before cremation (because the morgues were supposedly gas chambers & undressing rooms and no piles of dead bodies can be seen outdoor on wartime aerial photographs), cremation time is the crucial factor in the discoloration thing. At the Reinhardt camps, the Sonderkommado guys and the alleged perpetrators should also have seen pink-red corpses in the open mass graves. The commandant of Sobibor and Treblinka mentioned "pits full of black-blue corpses" under custody.

"I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of black-blue corpses." - Franz Stangl

When somebody invents a story, he/she has to imagine details crediting his/her story. Novelists and storytellers do that all the time. Classical asphyxiation causes blue corpses. That's called cyanosis. So when the guys who created the Holocaust narrative opted for homicidal gas chambers, they naturally imagined blue corpses and inserted that detail in their narrative. But they ignored that CO & cyanide gas chambers would have caused a different kind of asphyxiation, an asphyxiation without cyanosis, an asphyxiation with pink-red discoloration. The holo-storytellers should have read medical books BEFORE spreading all those stories of blue, black and green corpses. Now it's too late. Their lies are exposed for what they were/are, i.e. laughable absurd atrocity stories...
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby borjastick » 5 years 2 months ago (Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:42 am)

OK could Friedrich Berg respond to the issue, as claimed by Nessie, concerning the time required for bodies to display noticeable red colour.

Does the discolouration occur after just a few minutes or does it take six hours? If he can answer this and back it up with some medical evidence we might be able to put this argument to rest.
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 5 years 2 months ago (Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:30 am)

Borjastick's question has been answered countless times. See also: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7595295

The entire essay is at: http://nazigassings.com/RisserBoenschSchneider.html

Count for yourselves just how many times the word "immediately" appears, not just in the title, but in the essay itself.

Friedrich Paul Berg

Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

http://www.Gaschamberhoax.com
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 5 years 2 months ago (Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:06 pm)

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:Borjastick's question has been answered countless times. See also: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7595295

The entire essay is at: http://nazigassings.com/RisserBoenschSchneider.html

Count for yourselves just how many times the word "immediately" appears, not just in the title, but in the essay itself.

Friedrich Paul Berg

Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

http://www.Gaschamberhoax.com


Sorry, Fritz but from what I've seen of Nessie's reasoning, both of your links refer to livor mortis and so have nothing to do with ante mortem red discoloration from CO poisoning. The word "immediately" refers only to the attendant medical personnel's ability to react correctly to the red discoloration after it has appeared with the onset of livor mortis. According to Nessie, the initial red discoloration of CO poisoning presents as no more than a "ruddy complexion" that is essentially undetectable as a symptom to all but medical professionals. The pronounced red discoloration appears only with the onset of livor mortis.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 5 years 2 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:38 am)

I am appalled but NOT surprised by Attigun's cleverly-crafted answer above. Attigun claimed that what was involved was: "no more than a "ruddy complexion" that is essentially u-nd-e-t-e-c-t-a-b-l-e as a symptom to all but medical professionals." Even if nothing more than a "ruddy complexion" was visible, there is no reason to believe this would have been "undetectable" except by medical professionals. Everyone with normal eyesight would have seen it. No special optical instruments or gadgets needed. The correct medical interpretation of its significance, however, would have required some minimal training--but that is it. Untrained "eyewitnesses" at an "extermination camp" would have easily seen or "detected" the same red coloring also.

What is all too obvious in hindsight is that the self-described "eyewitnesses" from concentration camps did NOT have the "minimal training" needed or else they would have embellished their horrible lies accordingly.

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Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

http://www.Gaschamberhoax.com
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby ivam » 5 years 2 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:17 am)

Even in the event that the red colouring would only appear after hours, it WOULD appear INSTEAD of the typical dark purple/blue colour, however all witnesses describe blue livor mortis? it really doesnt matter how long it takes does it, all witnesses have only seen ordinary corpses which may well have died from typhus. the Point is no one has described or seen a corpse that had redish colouration, so it is of little importance how long it takes for the red colouring to appear.

At least thats my train of thought.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 5 years 2 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:05 pm)

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:I am appalled but NOT surprised by Attigun's cleverly-crafted answer above. Attigun claimed that what was involved was: "no more than a "ruddy complexion" that is essentially u-nd-e-t-e-c-t-a-b-l-e as a symptom to all but medical professionals." Even if nothing more than a "ruddy complexion" was visible, there is no reason to believe this would have been "undetectable" except by medical professionals. Everyone with normal eyesight would have seen it. No special optical instruments or gadgets needed. The correct medical interpretation of its significance, however, would have required some minimal training--but that is it. Untrained "eyewitnesses" at an "extermination camp" would have easily seen or "detected" the same red coloring also.

What is all too obvious in hindsight is that the self-described "eyewitnesses" from concentration camps did NOT have the "minimal training" needed or else they would have embellished their horrible lies accordingly.

Friedrich Paul Berg

Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

http://www.Gaschamberhoax.com


Hey, hey, big guy, take it easy there. I'm not the one making a "cleverly crafted but appalling post" about the appearance of the symptomatic red discoloration of CO poisoning. I've been reading Nessie's posts and I simply used her "logic" to fashion what would be her likely objection to your links. I think her claims specious and unfounded. Don't shoot me, I'm just acting as the messenger here.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Moderator » 5 years 2 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:08 pm)

Indeed Mr. Berg, Atigun does not deserve to be addressed in that manner. Let's just stay with the points he addresses. If you feel his post was 'cleverly worded and appalling' then you have the opportunity to rebut it.
On the other hand ... Atigun, please try to avoid taking things personally, it's a curiously touchy subject we debate here.
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Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 5 years 2 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:51 pm)

Obviously, I have touched a sensitive nerve with my response to Attigun's "cleverly-crafted" post above. The fact is that the "ruddy complexion," if that is what seems to be present, does NOT require anyone to be a trained medical professional before they can see it. But more than that, there is nothing in the medical literature to even remotely suggest that the red coloring cannot be easily seen by anyone with normal vision.

Friedrich Paul Berg

Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

http://www.Gaschamberhoax.com
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 2 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:29 pm)

Page 35
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... &start=340

Nessie
Berg, you have run away from answering my questions about the time it takes for lividity to appear and the effects of moving a body and putting pressure on the skin.


Nessie, you have run away from answering questions about the yellow colour claimed to have shown up in the bodies of the dead. You said you solved it pages back, but we went there and found you admitting you couldn't explain it and that we and you yourself needed to consult medical experts.


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