The most important Photograph / corpse color

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 5 years 3 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:05 am)

I suggest that Thomas Darwin be far less patronising to the lay folks around here, such as myself, and actually r-e-a-d the medical literature carefully which has been cited here by myself and others. The wording "bright cherry red" as an important indicator, even "classic" (but admittedly not absolute proof) of carbon monoxide death and poisoning has been used almost universally in the best medical literature for a hundred years in this connection. The Austrian essay in Forensic Science by Risser et al is most emphatic about the "immediacy" of the appearance of that red coloring after death and the critical importance of that coloring, contrary to Darwin's claims, to quickly recognizing possible CO death. http://nazigassings.com/RisserBoenschSchneider.html Within that essay, no concern at all is expressed for any need to wait an hour or even longer before looking for the red coloring--bright cherry red, or whatever. If Darwin and/or Nessie were right, there would be a great danger that the coroner would arrive and leave, with the corpse perhaps, before the red coloring would even have had time to appear. The resulting CO rich environment would be u-n-r-e-c-o-g-n-i--z-e-d and people's lives would be at great risk.

The precise reddish coloring will vary, of course, but what should be perfectly obvious is that the color of the corpse will NOT appear to be blue, green, yellow or black. Thomas Darwin introduction of "cyanosis" as a possible explanation suggests to me that he is trying to muddy the issues just as Charles Provan did many years ago.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 5 years 3 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:33 am)

Here under is information about the frequency of cherry-red livor in carbon monoxide poisonings.

Am J Forensic Med Pathol. 2001 Sep;22(3):233-5.

Carbon monoxide poisoning without cherry-red livor.

Carson HJ, Esslinger K.

Abstract

Carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning typically causes so-called cherry-red livor of the skin and viscera. The authors report a case of CO poisoning in which cherry-red livor did not develop. The decedent was a 75-year-old white man who was found dead in his car during a cold winter. Blood CO saturation was 86%. The death was attributed to CO poisoning, and the manner of death was designated suicide. The curious absence of cherry-red livor was studied. The decedent's tissue and blood specimens were tested at different temperatures. There was no tendency for either type of specimen to develop cherry-red color at cold or warm temperatures. The antemortem response of the skin to cold possibly sequestered CO-saturated blood in the cadaver. As regards the viscera, there are other proteins to which CO can bond, and possibly these proteins contribute to the development of visceral cherry-red livor. In this case, the absence of cherry-red livor could have led to misclassification of the cause and manner of death. The medicolegal and social consequences of such misclassification can be significant, and psychiatric history, which may be useful to surviving family members, could be lost.

PMID: 11563729 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11563729


Carbon monoxide poisoning's cherry-red livor is so usual that a medical study was needed when ONE case of non-discoloration was found (because of cold). To those who ask "How many dead bodies would have displayed the cherry-red livor?", it can answered "Close to 100%."...

And ante-mortem discoloration is useless for diagnosis (see below) because white-skinned people may look pink-red for various reasons other than carbon monoxide poisoning.

Age Ageing. 2004 Mar;33(2):105-9.

Carbon monoxide poisoning: undetected by both patients and their doctors.

Harper A, Croft-Baker J.

Abstract

Carbon monoxide poisoning represents a potentially preventable and reversible cause of mortality and morbidity if sources and cases can be identified. The elderly have been shown to be particularly at risk. Concerns continue to be raised about potential unrecognised cases of carbon monoxide poisoning. These concerns arise from difficulties in knowing who to suspect as a potential victim of poisoning as well as how, when and what to test. In general carbon monoxide has no helpful unique clinical presentation and is known to mimic common illnesses as well as exacerbate established diseases. As a gas it is undetectable by the human senses and is potentially present in most households. This paper reviews the issues associated with carbon monoxide poisoning including pointers to early diagnosis and discussion of pathophysiology and management.

PMID: 14960423 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14960423


Of course, this doesn't change the fact that Sonderkommando guys should have been very surprised to find dead bodies "looking red-cheeked and healthy" in gas chambers and they should have reported such an amazing thing. They certainly expected to find bluish or pale dead bodies in gas chambers and finding "lifelike" dead bodies "looking red-cheeked and healthy" couldn't have been unnoticed & unreported. Impossible...

One classic sign of carbon monoxide poisoning is more often seen in the dead rather than the living – people have been described as looking red-cheeked and healthy. However, since this "cherry-red" appearance is common only in the deceased, and is unusual in living people, it is not considered a useful diagnostic sign in clinical medicine. In pathological (autopsy) examination the ruddy appearance of carbon monoxide poisoning is notable because unembalmed dead persons are normally bluish and pale, whereas dead carbon-monoxide poisoned persons may simply appear unusually lifelike in coloration.[30][31][32] The colorant effect of carbon monoxide in such postmortem circumstances is thus analogous to its use as a red colorant in the commercial meat-packing industry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 5 years 3 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:01 am)

To Thomas Darwin's point that:
Words have meanings, and livor mortis has a very specific meaning, which any person who's ever attended a single pathology lecture knows: gravity-based pooling of blood after death due to the weight of hemoglobin in serum.

I suggest that Darwin come down to earth and actually read the last page of the Risser essay, marked 598, where a different and broader meaning of livor mortis is suggested. http://nazigassings.com/RisserBoenschSchneider.html
In summary, we have shown that coroners should be able to recognize carbon monoxide-related deaths i-m-m-e-d-i-a-t-e-l-y at the death scene, because fresh corpses with carboxyhemoglobin levels greater than 31%, show a clear cherry-pink coloring of livor mortis. [emphasis added by FPB]

Could the corpses be "too fresh?" I find it preposterous to insist that "fresh corpses" could only mean corpses that have somehow aged, for an hour or longer, for Darwin's type of livor mortis to appear. Such corpses would, I dare say, NOT be "fresh" at all.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 3 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:14 am)

I hope people noticed another tactic Nessie took. First it was to say nobody noticed the red because they were hussled out of the gas chambers right away. Then, upon being given a quote from Yitzak Arad about bodies being out in the open for at least a day or two, he says they were stacked and the pressure of from other bodies being on top prevented the red colouring of livor mortis appearing in the corpses. Okay, what about the top layer? And second of all, that just falls into his bad argument about saying red takes minimum 20 minutes or an average of 3 hours to appear. But that is using livor mortis numbers and ignoring how the Jews would have still been red when alive...in other words when according to Arad, they stumbled out of the Treblinka chambers, dazed from the effects, and hobbled over to the pits where they fell in, passed out, and died.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Hannover » 5 years 3 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:42 am)

Werd:
Then, upon being given a quote from Yitzak Arad about bodies being out in the open for at least a day or two, ...
That's our boy Yitzak Arad, handing out 'holocaust' coffin nails one after the other. In this case stacking bodies for a day or two out in the open would mean that Jews were blind.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 3 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:08 pm)

http://www.answers.com/topic/treblinka- ... ation-camp
Timeline of Treblinka II

History of the camp

Before Operation Reinhard, over half a million Jews had been killed by the Einsatzgruppen, mobile extermination units, in territories conquered by the German army. It became evident, however, that they could not handle the millions of Jews that they had concentrated in the ghettos of occupied countries. So Treblinka, along with the other Operation Reinhard camps, was especially designed for the rapid elimination of the Jews in ghettos. Treblinka was ready on 11 July 1942.[24] The deportation of the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto began on 22 July 1942, which was the 9th of Av, Tisha B'Av, according to the Jewish calendar: "According to the SS Brigadeführer Jürgen Stroop report, a total of approximately 310,000 Jews were transported in freight trains from the Warsaw Ghetto to Treblinka during the period from 22 July to 3 October 1942."[25]
Further information: Grossaktion Warsaw (1942)
Irmfried Eberl

Irmfried Eberl presided as the camp's first commandant on July 11, 1942. Eberl was a psychiatrist, and the only physician ever to command an extermination camp.

The camp received its first shipment of victims, 6,500 Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto, on July 22, 1942. The gas chambers became operational the following day, July 23, 1942. Shipments continued on a daily basis thereafter, usually ranging from about 4,000 to 7,000 victims per day, Jews from the ghettos of Poland, mainly Warsaw, most of whom were immediately sent to the gas chambers. Hundreds of the prisoners died from starvation, dehydration or suffocation while in transit to the camp in the cramped rail cars.

Eberl's poor organizational skills soon caused the operation of Treblinka to turn disastrous. At the very beginning, the corpses were buried in mass graves, but within days the burial pits were overflowing with bodies, and corpses were instead piled up in camp II because the workers lacked sufficient time to bury them. At the same time, the gas chambers continually broke down. Therefore, the SS resorted to shooting incoming Jews in the arrival area of the camp and piling bodies throughout the camp.[11]



Sounds to me like bodies were piled up in the camp for more than one or two days. So at least some of the bodies would have turned completely red (the bodies on top of the piles) while the others would have turned blotchy...all from livor mortis. Assuming of course that the Jews weren't already red from the alleged CO poisoning they had gone through with a diesel, I mean a petrol, I mean a gasoline engine. Oh wait a second. How can those pits possibly by overflowing with bodies? Didn't those pits in Treblinka reach depths of thirty meters just like at Belzec? :lol:

Excavators at Belzec

Nessie is up to the old tricks again on age page 36 and is thus a worn out record. He/she continues asking, "Oh yeah well why doesn't the CDC and the NIH websites I quoted mention redness as a symptom of CO poisoning?" As if that somehow refutes all the medical literature to the effect that people can appear red from CO toxicity and still not die. But I thought Nessie granted that redness can appear in non fatal cases of CO poisoning. Oh yea, but it was moreso a dark red or ruddy colour and not cherry red which is only characterisitic of livor mortis and that takes time. In other words, Berg and everyone else who cites any case about someone being red and alive with CO poisoning is mistaken or stupid; because this "cherry red" they constantly refer to is bright and that only comes from livor mortis whereas the dark ruddy red (that is not bright cherry red) is what happens ante mortem CO poisoning. It's a different colour red that only medical experts can notice with their superior eyesight, don't you know.

Also, a darker ruddy colour, as well as blue and yellow are also claimed to have appeared in corpses. But yellow makes no sense. Well I guess Nessie admitted to not knowing how to explain yellow and that other medical professionals had to be consulted to explain yellow. But then pages later Nessie claims to have explained the witnesses claims of yellow corpses. Hilarious. Even when medical professionals even show cases of redness and CO poisoning WITHOUT livor mortis at all, Nessie just retreats and screams, "CDC! NIH! CDC! NIH!" Well the answer is obvious. Because whoever wrote those articles forgot to check all the medical literature. Simple! If Nessie wants to base everything on what the CDC or NIH websites SUMMARIZE instead of looking at medical literature which EXPLAINS IN DETAIL how someone can turn red from CO poisoning and still be alive, that is Nessie's own problem. As Scott said in that rodoh thread, either someone can accept science or deny it. Nessie has clearly chosen the latter.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Thames Darwin » 5 years 3 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:17 pm)

I think I see where we're losing one another in this discussion. Let me try to explain.

The bodies of people who have died from CO poisoning will indeed have a pinkish or reddish color, particularly where mucous membranes are closest to the skin surface (eyes, nose, lips, etc.). However, you will not see the kind of bright pink livor mortis on the bodies until at least half an hour has passed, and sometimes quite longer. Factors that would affect the amount of time would include age, circulatory disorders, and the temperature. Corpses displaying the deepness of color seen in Mr. Berg's signature image will not appear for at least that long. People who are experiencing CO toxicity but not at fatal or near-fatal levels, however, may show no skin changes at all or cyanosis, which is why I objected to Mr. Berg's labeling of the image of pink fingernails as a CO poisoning case.

There are, therefore, two things that witnesses should have noted. First, upon entering the gas chambers after a gassing, they should have noted that the bodies were pink. Second, perhaps hours later with bodies further along in the incineration process, they would have noticed pink livor mortis. Of course, no one noted either, and we all know why. But it isn't the slam dunk you all seem to think that it is. It just isn't.

Regarding Mr. Berg's last two points above. First, I see no suggestion in the linked article of any "different and broader meaning" of livor mortis. Second and more importantly, note that the authors are speaking of coroners at the death scene. Unless the person who has died of CO poisoning happens to live with a coroner, it's likely that a half hour to several hours will have passed before a coroner will view the corpse. Therefore, there will be livor mortis. One thing physicians don't generally do is redefine medical terms. It's a dangerous precedent to set because it can cause confusion in the medical community. If and when changes in medical terminology are made, they are usually made because professional societies have agreed upon those changes. I am unaware of the boards of pathology or medical examiners re-defining livor mortis.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 5 years 3 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:52 pm)

Thomas Darwin's comment above is quite interesting and useful--but I strongly disagree with him. Contrary to what he claims, we do have "a slam dunk" with our focus on the total absence of any alleged reddish coloring in the statements of self-described "eyewitnesses."

Darwin suggested that the presence of a coroner shortly after the moment of death is highly unlikely.
Unless the person who has died of CO poisoning happens to live with a coroner, it's likely that a half hour to several hours will have passed before a coroner will view the corpse. Therefore, there will be livor mortis.
Just imagine a coroner being called to a CO death scene of someone in a typical, cold, Viennese apartment. I actually lived in Vienna off and on for several years so I do have personal knowledge of what that is like. Central heating is a rarity in Vienna and most of central Europe, including Poland. Cold tends to delay the onset of livor mortis. The corpse as seen by the coroner may indeed display livor mortis--but suddenly there is another emergency within the same building, perhaps on the same floor, where someone else stops breathing and dies, possibly from the same gas leak or source that caused the coroner's visit to the building in the first place. What to do? Should the coroner step out for some Viennese coffee and come back o-n-l-y after an hour to make his diagnosis? Of course, not! If the gas leak was large enough, there probably will be even more deaths. The piping in many buildings is quite old and often still damaged by the bombing of Vienna in WW2 as well--and so, gas pipes or chimney pipes, deeply hidden as they generally are within thick masonry walls--and breaking many years later is NOT rare at all.

One purpose of the Risser essay is to get coroners to do their jobs and NOT make long-winded excuses for delay. But the main point of the essay is that coroners should and can "immediately" recognize the characteristic reddish or pink coloring as powerful evidence of likely CO death--no need for a blood test or a spectrophotometer, or whatever, which can still be done later.

There is a language difference here as well. While American doctors may well be as thoroughly programmed as Darwin suggests, Viennese doctors speak German and are, I dare say, far less programmed--which may account for a broader meaning to livor mortis.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 5 years 3 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:20 pm)

Mr. Darwin, what percentage of cadavers that have died from CO poisoning will, at the point of death, display a red or pink discoloration that would be considered noticeable to a person of normal eyesight during daylight hours and normal weather conditions? Let's call "point of death" as that time that the individual's heart stops beating and there is no attempt at resuscitation. IOW, if one hundred (100) mythical "average persons" of "average eyesight" on an "average day" were walking down the street and happened to come across a naked dead body lying on the sidewalk that had just expired from CO poisoning, how many would be likely to notice that the corpse looked pink or red?

Nessie, a hoaxer, argues on the RODOH site that nobody noticed that the gassed Jews displayed any red/pink discoloration because of the time required for the onset of discoloration. According to Nessie, the length of time required for the red/pink discoloration to appear is sufficient for all of the cadavers to be either cremated or buried. Whether or not that is possible is irrelevant to my question. Do cadavers that have expired from CO poisoning immediately display red/pink discoloration that would be visible to an "average" onlooker under "average" weather conditions? If so, what is the percentage of cadavers meeting those requirements?

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Thames Darwin » 5 years 3 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:12 pm)

Atigun wrote:Mr. Darwin, what percentage of cadavers that have died from CO poisoning will, at the point of death, display a red or pink discoloration that would be considered noticeable to a person of normal eyesight during daylight hours and normal weather conditions? Let's call "point of death" as that time that the individual's heart stops beating and there is no attempt at resuscitation. IOW, if one hundred (100) mythical "average persons" of "average eyesight" on an "average day" were walking down the street and happened to come across a naked dead body lying on the sidewalk that had just expired from CO poisoning, how many would be likely to notice that the corpse looked pink or red?

Nessie, a hoaxer, argues on the RODOH site that nobody noticed that the gassed Jews displayed any red/pink discoloration because of the time required for the onset of discoloration. According to Nessie, the length of time required for the red/pink discoloration to appear is sufficient for all of the cadavers to be either cremated or buried. Whether or not that is possible is irrelevant to my question. Do cadavers that have expired from CO poisoning immediately display red/pink discoloration that would be visible to an "average" onlooker under "average" weather conditions? If so, what is the percentage of cadavers meeting those requirements?


I dare say that virtually all cadavers of white people will show some pink or reddish coloration, particularly in the face, where there are copious mucous membranes nearest the skin surface. What you would NOT see is bright red or pink coloring in large patches vs. no coloring in patches where pressure had been applied, like you see in Mr. Berg's photograph. That's livor mortis and wouldn't appear for at least half an hour.

So your "Nessie" is wrong in stating that the time required wouldn't have passed. The pink or red coloring would have begun to appear when the person was still alive.

The problem is that it might not have been sufficiently widespread to be noticeable on all of the bodies, so it might not have been identifiable as a trend. Consider it from the exterminationist perspective and any number of possibilities arise, including but not limited to: Jews having more melanin and more body hair than their host populations, including bearded men; feces smeared on bodies; soot on bodies from gasoline/diesel (apparently both) exhaust; etc.

Also, I don't know whether any of these people have medical degrees, but they could point out that the elderly would have had poorer circulation and therefore less red/pink coloration, which depends on capillary perfusion. Typhus rashes would have made things difficult to distinguish as well. Finally, I've seen a couple of these people claim suffocation and trampling caused more deaths than CO poisoning. Again, assuming for the moment that their perspective is true, that would also explain a general lack of red or pink coloring -- at least as a trend.

But Mr. Berg says it's a slam dunk, so I guess it's a slam dunk. What would I know?

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 5 years 3 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:17 pm)

Well, Mr. Darwin, since you refused to actually answer my question I have no idea of what you do know. You say that virtually all White people would display some red/pink discoloration at death but you didn't say if it would be visible to an "average" person on the street. You then go on about livor mortis which has nothing to do with my question. Then you go on about the Jew's melanin content, hirsuteness and age. None of that has anything to do with my question. I'll try again. Quite simply, what percentage of Jews, hair, melanin and all, would display a sufficient intensity of the symptomatic red/pink discoloration of CO poisoning immediately upon death that it would be noticeable to the "average" person with "average" eyesight in "average" daylight? Bear in mind that women and children, even Jewish women and children, aren't particularly hairy. A simple estimate from a medical professional will do nicely, Mr. Darwin.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 5 years 3 months ago (Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:30 am)

Ante-mortem bright red skin, even if it's a relatively late symptom before death:

Milford man dies after CO exposure

April 23, 2014

MILFORD -- The first time the fire department's rescue unit responded to a Juniper Lane home Tuesday night, it was to treat a 55-year-old man in cardiac arrest who was working on his motorcyle in his garage.

It wasn't until the man, identified as Ralph Mastrianna, arrived at the Milford Hospital emergency department shortly after 7 p.m. that medical workers realized that they were dealing with a case of carbon monoxide poisoning.

"We had no idea when we first got to the house that it was anything but (a case of) cardiac arrest,'' said Capt. Greg Carman, spokesman for the Milford Fire Department.

Mastrianna died shortly after arriving at the hospital, and emergency department employees found high levels of carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide in his blood.

"We went back an hour later with our meters and found elevated levels of both carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide in the garage and basement area of the home,'' Carman said. "The rest of the home was clear.''

There was a CO detector in the home, but the alarm was not sounding when firefighters arrived, Carman said.

Part of the delay in diagnosing the man's health problem was that he didn't have the classic symptoms of CO poisioning, including a bright red face, Carman said.

"That is a relatively late symptom,'' Carman said. "By the time that you see that, it is often too late. The early symptoms could be almost anything: nausea, headache and listlessness.''

Mastrianna's son told fire officials his father had been working on his motorcycle in a garage to get it ready for the weekend. Carman said hydrogen cyanide can be produced when batteries are charged, and that the elder Mastrianna had been charging the motorcycle's battery.

http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Milf ... 426100.php


Post-mortem cherry red or pink skin with a healthy appearance rather than the usual pallor of death:

COMMON MEANS OF SUICIDE

[...]

CARBON MONOXIDE

It takes an atmospheric concentration of 4 parts per thousand of carbon monoxide for an hour to kill a human being. The victim's skin typically turns cherry red or cherry pink (on a black or hispanic person, this will show up under the fingernails and on the lips).

[...]

An idling gasoline engine has between 2 and 10% carbon monoxide in its exhaust. If the exhaust if piped directed into an average size passenger compartment, carbon monoxide will occupy about 1.5% of the volume of the passenger compartment within about 5 minutes. This is enough to cause definite medical problems after 6 to 7 minutes from the time the car starts. At that level even if the car quits running or is turned off, the victim will die if he stays in the passenger compartment without ventilation.

Diesel engines produce very little carbon monoxide and are generally not considered to be able to produce death, if there is even minimal ventilation.

[...]

The most obvious sign of carbon monoxide poisoning is the cherry red appearance of the lips and fingernails. On blacks, this cherry red color still shows up on the fingernails and inside the lips. Livor mortis in whites and other fair skinned races is also cherry red. The rest of the skin will have a robust, healthy appearance, rather than the usual pallor of death. In addition, if it has been some time since death there may be premature skin slippage; that is, the skin will be loose on the body. This is due to the elevated temperature caused by the car's exhaust into the passenger compartment.

http://dmmoyle.com/simeans.htm
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Thames Darwin » 5 years 3 months ago (Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:48 am)

Atigun wrote:Well, Mr. Darwin, since you refused to actually answer my question I have no idea of what you do know. You say that virtually all White people would display some red/pink discoloration at death but you didn't say if it would be visible to an "average" person on the street.


I wrote:

I dare say that virtually all cadavers of white people will show some pink or reddish coloration, particularly in the face, where there are copious mucous membranes nearest the skin surface.


Sorry for making you think.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Moderator » 5 years 3 months ago (Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:52 am)

Sorry for making you think.

Thames Darwin:
No reason to be insulting.
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 5 years 3 months ago (Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:42 am)

It seems that Auschwitz and the alleged Zyklon gas chambers are a little bit forgotten in this red discoloration thing.

"Cyanide poisoning also results in the skin developping cherry red coloration although it is said to be somewhat darker than that caused by carbon monoxide." (Essential Forensic Biology, by Allan Gunn - http://books.google.be/books?id=IaQsqg7 ... ed&f=false)

To explain why no 'witnesses' talked about cherry red corpses at Auschwitz-Birkenau, Holohoaxers will have to make people believe that the Nazis had extraordinary magical ovens able to cremate 2,000 dead bodies in less than 20 minutes! :shock:

Good luck... :roll:
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