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Re: The use of logical fallacies

Postby hermod » 5 years 1 month ago (Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:05 pm)

Werd wrote:And when it comes to deciding whether or not reports about what went on in the Aktion Reinhardt camps are accurate or not, Nessie clearly cherry picks himself and pretends that absurd atrocity tales do not exist, or if they do, they are the result of an honest accident that can be successfully explained away to placate the revisionists who have inquiries. To admit otherwise, the existence of outright atrocity lies, would be to admit lies have taken place and therefore one has an epistemic duty to continue further research in an attempt to seperate the nonsense from the rest. And once that happens, revisonism is justifed on scientific grounds as opposed to being just blind Jew hatred for the sake of Jew hatred. And the gas chamber mongers simply can't have revisionism being justified on scientific grounds.


I wonder what Nessie thinks about the Polish wartime 'report' which said there was a mobile gas chamber that traveled along the mass graves and unloaded the corpses into them at Treblinka.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: The use of logical fallacies

Postby Werd » 5 years 1 month ago (Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:25 pm)

Do you mean gas vans like the ones claimed to have been used by the Einsatzgruppen in the Russian territories or in Chelmno? Or like a huge mobile shed on the back of a truckbed that gets driven along by a truck? I bet if I go back through my Belzec excavators thread and found the link to where Roberto Muehlenkamp posted that report of 30 meter deep pits at Treblinka, I would find that report as well.

Edit:
Yes. I am going to copy and paste the relevant parts soon.

Edit 2:
Some early reports of the Aktion Reinhard camps
http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/ ... _kjRKO6XXR

Man, there are some real howlers in there.

2. Chaim Kaplan diary, excerpts from http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/terribl ... er003.html Scroll of Agony
________________________________________________________________________

We tremble at the mention of Lublin. An entire community of 44,000 Jews was plucked out by the roots and slaughtered or dispersed. Thousands of Jews were rounded up and led where? Nobody knows. According to rumour they were taken to Rawa Ruska and were electrocuted there.
(7 April 1942)
_________________________________________________________________________

3. Hauptmann Wilm Hosenfeld, on staff of Oberfeldkommandantur Warschau:

Quote:

Warschau, 23. Juli 1942. Gegenwärtig läuft eine Vernichtungsaktion der Juden, die zwar seit der Besetzung der Ostgebiete Ziel der deutschen zivilen Verwaltung unter Zuhilfenahme von Polizei und der G.Sta.Po war, aber jetzt scheinbar großzügig und radikal gelöst werden soll.
Es wird glaubhaft von verschiedenen Leuten berichtet, daß man das Ghetto in Lublin ausgefegt hat, die Juden daraus vertrieben, sie massenweise ermordet, in die Wälder getrieben und zu einem kleinen Teil in einem Lager eingesperrt hat. Vom Litzmannstadt, von Kutno wird erzählt, daß man die Juden, Männer, Frauen und Kinder, in fahrbaren Gaswagen vergiftet, den Toten die Kleider auszieht, sie in Massengräber wirft und die Kleider zur weiteren Verwendung den Textilfabriken zuführt. Entsetzliche Szenen sollen sich abspielen. Jetzt ist man dabei, das Warschauer Ghetto, das etwa 400.000 Menschen zählt, auf ähnliche Weise zu leeren.
25. Juli 1942 In dieser Woche sollen schon 30.000 Juden aus dem Ghetto herausgeführt sein, irgendwohin nach Osten. Was man mit ihnen macht, ist trotzt aller Heimlichkeit auch schon bekannt. Irgendwo, nicht weit von Lublin, hat man Gebäude aufgeführt, die elektrisch heizbare Räume haben, die durch Starkstrom ähnlich wie ein Krematorium geheizt werden. In diese Heizkammern werden die unglücklichen Menschen hineingetrieben und dann bei lebendigem Leibe verbrannt. An einem Tag kann man so Tausende umbringen.
6. September 1942 es gelingt immer mehreren, zu entfliehen, und durch sie kommen die Wahnsinntaten an die Oeffentlichkeit. Der Ort heißt Treblinka, im Osten des Generalgouvernements. Dort werden die Wagen ausgeladen, viele sind schon tot, das ganze Gelände ist mit Mauern abgesperrt, die Wagen fahren hinein und werden entladen Die nach Tausend zählenden Frauen und Kinder müssen sich entkleiden, werden in eine fahrbare Baracke getrieben und werden da vergast So geht das nun schon lang. Aus allen Teilen Polens holt man die unglücklichen Menschen zusammen, einen Teil tötet man gleich an Ort und Stelle, weil nicht genügend Laderaum zur Verfügung steht. Wenn sie zuviel sind, transportiert man sie ab. Ein furchtbarer Leichengeruch liegt über der ganzen Gegend

[Bogdan Musial, Deutsche Zivilverwaltung und Judenverfolgung im Generalgouvernement. Eine Fallstudie zum Distrikt Lublin 1939-1944, Wiesbaden, 1999, citing Auszüge aus dem Tagebuch von Hauptmann Wilm Hosenfeld, in Wladyslaw Szpilman, Das wunderbare Überleben. Warschauer Erinnerungen 1939-1945. Düsseldorf, 1998, p.193ff, 197ff]

My (Roberto Muehlenkamp) translation:


Quote:

Warsaw, 23 July 1942 Currently an extermination action against the Jews is going on. While this was the goal of the German civilian administration assisted by the Gestapo since the occupation of the eastern territories, it seems that a generous and radical solution is now being sought. There are credible accounts from different people that the ghetto in Lublin has been swept empty, that the Jews have been expelled from there, murdered in masses or driven into the forests, and that a small part has been locked in a camp. From Litzmannstadt and from Kutno it is told that the Jews, men, women and children, are poisoned in mobile gas vans, the dead are undressed and thrown into mass graves and the clothes are delivered to textile factories for further use. It is said that horrible scenes happen. Now they are in the process of emptying the Warsaw ghetto, which counts about 400,000 people, in a similar manner.
25 July 1942 This week already 30,000 Jews are said to have been taken out of the ghetto, to somewhere in the east. What they do with them is also known already, despite all secrecy. Somewhere, not far away from Lublin, they have erected buildings with rooms that can be electrically heated and are heated by strong current similarly to a crematorium. In these heating chambers the unfortunate people are then burned alive. This way one can kill thousands in a day.
6 September 1942 there are always several who manage to escape, and through them the mad deeds become public. The place is called Treblinka, in the east of the General Government. There the wagons are unloaded, many are already dead, the whole area is sealed by walls, the cars enter there and are unloaded. The women and children, in their thousands, must undress, are herded into a mobile barracks and gassed there. This has now been going on for long. From all parts of Poland they are gathering the unfortunate people, a part of them are killed right on site because there is not enough loading capacity available. When there are too many of them, they are transported away. A terrible stench of corpses lies over the whole area.

Here's another one about Treblinka just below.
4. Bund newspaper Oif der Vach (On Guard), 20 September 1942

Quote:

The Jews of Warsaw Are Killed in Treblinka
During the first week of the deportation Aktion Warsaw was flooded with greetings from the deported Jews. The greetings arrived from Bialystok, Brest-Litovsk, Kosov, Malkinia, Pinsk, Smolensk. All this was a lie. All the trains with the Warsaw Jews went to Treblinka, where the Jews were murdered in the most cruel way. The letters and greetings came from people who succeeded in escaping from the trains or from the camp. It is possible that in the beginning, from the first transports, some of the Warsaw Jews were sent to Brest-Litovsk or Pinsk, in order that their greetings would mislead, deceive, and provoke false illusions among the Jews in Warsaw. Actually, what was the fate of the deported Jews? We know it from the stories of the Poles and of those Jews who succeeded in escaping from the trains or from Treblinka
The size of Treblinka was one-half square kilometer. It was surrounded by three fences of barbed wire. After unloading the train of the living and the dead, the Jews were led into the camp During the descent from the train, shots were fired on those who were slow or even for no reason. Those who died en route or were shot on the spot were buried between the first and the second fence.
The women and children from the arriving transport were divided into groups of 200 each and were taken to the baths. They had to take off their clothes, which remained on the spot, and were taken naked to a small barrack called the bath, which was located close to the digging machine. From the bath nobody returned, and new groups were entering there constantly. The bath was actually a house of murder. The floor in this barrack opened up and the people fell into a machine. According to the opinion of some of those who escaped, the people in the barrack were gassed. According to another opinion, they were killed by electrical current. From the small tower over the bath, there were constant shots. There was talk that the shots were aimed at the people inside the barrack and those who survived the gas. The bath absorbs 200 people every fifteen minutes, so in twenty-four hours the killing capacity is 20,000 people. That was the explanation for the incessant arrival of people in the camp, from where there was no return, except a few hundred who succeeded in escaping during the whole time. During the daytime women and children were liquidated and during the nights, the men.
The escape from the camp was difficult and dangerous, but there were people who tried to do it, in spite of the fact that the camp was strongly illuminated during the night Why wasn’t a mass escape organised? There were rumours in the camp that it was surrounded by a strong guard and the fences were electrified. The people were broken from their experiences at the Umschlagplatz, on the train and in the camp. The general depression influenced also those who were, by nature, more active
An SS man gave a speech before each of the arriving transports and promised that all of them would be sent for work in Smolensk or Kiev.
The night between August 19 and 20, when Warsaw was bombarded, there was a blackout in the camp for the first time. An SS man addressed the assembled Jews. He told them that an agreement had been reached between the German government and Roosevelt about the transfer of European Jews to Madagascar. In the morning they would leave Treblinka with the first transport. This announcement aroused a great joy among the Jews. As soon as the all-clear signal was given, the extermination machine started its normal activity. Even inside the camp, the Nazis continued to mislead the Jews until the last moment
There were three such camps: one in the vicinity of Pinsk for the eastern area, another in the area of Lublin at Belzec, and the third, the largest, was Treblinka near Malkinia.


[Arad, pp.244-6]

Oh so we had electrocution in Treblinka too? I thought it was just in Belzec. Colour me surprised.

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Re: The use of logical fallacies

Postby Hannover » 5 years 1 month ago (Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:37 pm)

hermod wrote:I wonder what Nessie thinks about the Polish wartime 'report' which said there was a mobile gas chamber that traveled along the mass graves and unloaded the corpses into them at Treblinka.
Here are the specifics, plus there was the more casual option of exiting the 'gas chambers', strolling to the mass graves, and jumping in.
Gas chambers on wheels in Treblinka, which dumped their victims directly into burning pits; delayed-action poison gas that allowed the victims to leave the gas chambers and walk to the mass graves by themselves;[11]

[11] Reports of the Polish underground movement, Archiv der Polnischen Vereinigten Arbeiterpartei, 202/III, v. 7, pp. 120f., quoted in: P. Longerich, op. cit.(note 271), p. 438.
Fallacies Nessie?

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

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Re: The use of logical fallacies

Postby Nessie. » 5 years 1 month ago (Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:31 am)

Werd wrote:And when it comes to deciding whether or not reports about what went on in the Aktion Reinhardt camps are accurate or not, Nessie clearly cherry picks himself and pretends that absurd atrocity tales do not exist, or if they do, they are the result of an honest accident that can be successfully explained away to placate the revisionists who have inquiries. To admit otherwise, the existence of outright atrocity lies, would be to admit lies have taken place and therefore one has an epistemic duty to continue further research in an attempt to seperate the nonsense from the rest. And once that happens, revisonism is justifed on scientific grounds as opposed to being just blind Jew hatred for the sake of Jew hatred. And the gas chamber mongers simply can't have revisionism being justified on scientific grounds.


Picking out what is accurate and discarding what is not after checking is not cherry picking. The same is true with lies. If checks find someone is lying they are either not used as evidence at all or the part they lied about is disregarded. Sorry, but cherry picking is not the same thing as fact checking and research.

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Re: The use of logical fallacies

Postby Nessie. » 5 years 1 month ago (Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:35 am)

Hannover wrote:
hermod wrote:I wonder what Nessie thinks about the Polish wartime 'report' which said there was a mobile gas chamber that traveled along the mass graves and unloaded the corpses into them at Treblinka.
Here are the specifics, plus there was the more casual option of exiting the 'gas chambers', strolling to the mass graves, and jumping in.
Gas chambers on wheels in Treblinka, which dumped their victims directly into burning pits; delayed-action poison gas that allowed the victims to leave the gas chambers and walk to the mass graves by themselves;[11]

[11] Reports of the Polish underground movement, Archiv der Polnischen Vereinigten Arbeiterpartei, 202/III, v. 7, pp. 120f., quoted in: P. Longerich, op. cit.(note 271), p. 438.
Fallacies Nessie?

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

- Hannover


No, not fallacies. Instead they are mistakes in intelligence reports.

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Re: The use of logical fallacies

Postby Werd » 5 years 1 month ago (Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:12 pm)

Your continued refusal to explain Wiernick's claim of yellow corpses being poisoned from CO and what possible number in Polish could have been confused for 30 in terms of depth of pits in Belzec AND Treblikna proves to me you know deep down inside places you don't talk about on this board that the Polish Underground and other forces were engaged in atrocity lies in revenge against Germany, and that Wiernik was lying when he said he saw yellow skin. Either provide a better explanation, or else it will be clear that the rational thing to be will admit he never saw yellow skin from CO poisoning because he is not an eyewitness. If he was an eyewitness to a real atrocity like gassing a bunch of people by CO, he would not have said yellow. I have checked not only all the literature that you pulled together at rodoh over the last few weeks, but other and have found NO REFERENCE TO YELLOW SKIN. There is no mention of it in your own sources you use in debates. THAT SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING OBVIOUS. Claiming red is a symptom but occurs very little because that's what it says in your sources, but then to claim yellow is possible even though it is never mentioned as possible is a HYPOCRITICAL, DOUBLE STANDARD USE of your sources. This is why moderators and posters are irrirated with you, among other reasons. Anyone who uses double standards has to in order to maintain something they otherwise can not when acting consistently. You have one last chance on this Wiernick issue. Now, FOR THE LAST TIME...AFTER WEEKS AND WEEKS...if you don't explain how either a mistake could have been made because yellow is possible, or he was colourblind, or give some other probable explanation for that given phenomenon (his claim of yellow), then you concede that Wiernick is not telling the truth. Follow the rules of debate that you are so fond of. PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

Furthermore, you pull the same modus operandi for this Treblinka problem hannover made note of and refuse to explain HOW the mistake occured. If someone says in English to another English speaking person, "give me thirty dollars" and they get thirteen, this MISTAKE is EASILY EXPLAINED because someone did not pronounce the word clearly and/or they were too far away to hear what was really said. So now the question is (and apparently you keep piling them on yourself Nessie - not our fault) what was it in actuality that they mistook for mobile gas chambers? Why did they think they were mobile gas chambers? Can you do something like find a witness testimony talking about thing A or thing B that could conceivably have been misinterpreted? Saying, "Mistake" and walking away does nothing, Nessie. Sorry. Mistakes require explanations. Something you are clearly not forthcoming with. You are only digging your hole that much deeper by dodging. The moderators have warned you so when you eventually get banned for dodging, running back to skepticsforum or rodoh and claiming oppression will get you nowhere. Your actions, or rather inactions, are your own fault. Your failure to heed warnings to cease and desist dodging is on you. Not us.

Will you also soon forward an explanation as to how an "honest mistake" about super hot electrical plates inside wooden structures in Belzec and apparently now Treblinka could have occured? What was the misinterpreted phenomenon? Just give a credible explanation that would either have been photographed or mentioned in a testimony...something!

Will you also soon explain how an "honest mistake" occured about people claiming Jews in Belzec went into a big room that was filled up with water (and tell us how THAT was done too please) that was then filled with electrical current (tell us how THAT was done too please)? Do you have an explanation as to how an "honest mistake" like that occured? That they were dunking Jews in chambers filled with water that was electrified like a deep fryer? What was the real thing that caused a misperception in THAT instance? Are you willing to give one to us since you assumed a burden of proof and claimed it was an honest mistake? Or are you going to admit it was an atrocity propaganda lie? We are tired of you dodging. We are tired of you saying, "mistake" and just walking away without a proper explanation for a certain phenomenon. We are tired of your bad, lazy science.

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Re: The use of logical fallacies

Postby Atigun » 5 years 1 month ago (Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:08 pm)

I don't think that we can expect any more replies from Nessie. I was curious if Nessie was simply taking a break so went to the RODOH site to see if he had any activity there. Indeed he does. There's a link to "Skeptic" where he is pouring out a tale of woe to a more congenial audience. Hannover is the chief bugaboo of course, but you and I were given honorable mention.

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Re: The use of logical fallacies

Postby Werd » 5 years 1 month ago (Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:09 pm)

His replies are contained here.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=24162
Yellow is most commonly associated with jaundice and liver or digestive system complaints and neither fits death by CO or starvation. Nor does it fit those he said died from suffocation in the crammed chambers. I have never claimed yellow is possible, I have shown Berg's claims about obvious bodies being red is wrong.

So, as before I do not know why Wiernik said yellow to either and I cannot provide a medical explanation. What I will say is that he exhibits the same issues many other witnesses do to traumatic large scale events which will have cause him PTSD. Witnesses get details wrong, they exaggerate, they make mistakes. To dismiss Wiernik as a liar ignores evidence which corroborates his narrative of events at TII as it functioned as a death camp. So unlike you, I will not dismiss him as a lair.

This pathetic explanation ignores how Wiernik and other people are apparently so good with details they can remember the sizes of pits, the numbers of Jews on transports, entire gassing prodedures, the names of brutal nazis and Jewish sonderkommandos to the finest detail, but they still mix up red and yellow? HAHAHAHAHA. Nessie is trying to salvage the unsalvageable.

Furthermore, he claims TII was a death camp. "Refutations" of Eric Hunt aside, nobody on the other side of the debate, including Nessie, can bring themselves to admit that Jews went various places via these camps and therefore did not die. The transportation system was in fact in order because the Germans changed the railway gague as far east as they need to to get the job done. As that last hyperlink to my post with a topic on codoh and one on rodoh shows, nobody denies what the Germans did to change the railway system. Which would in fact enable mass transports of Jews further east than even David Cole wants to admit.
Much more proof of where these living Jews ended up during and after the war is locked up in archives we have not gotten to yet. Although a few examples have leaked out.
Werd @ J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?'
Who knows how many more were seperated from relatives thought to be dead but were in fact not? Thanks to Putin's outlawing of revisionism in Russia though, we may never know how many more cases of seperated brothers like the Hollander brothers may have occured. So claiming TII was a death camp is wrong. Therefore, Wiernick is wrong on that front as well.

When it comes to my bit about 13 and 30 in Polish and how they sound nothing alike and how not even the smaller numbers, which would be reasonable depths of burial pits sound NOTHING like 30 in Polish, he refuses to admit I am correct linguistically speaking about the Polish numbers and instead offers this...
Again, please bear in mind not all of my posts appear when you try to accuse me of dodging. Mistakes are made by human error caused by a whole host of factors. The ones I would associate with being a victim of the Holocaust are; fear, stress, fatigue and pressure at the time. Recalling events afterwards there will be survivor guilt, pride, trauma.

http://www.rootcauselive.com/PowerPoint ... lysis3.pdf

"Exposure to these stresses leads to reduced sensory capacity, fatigue,
and reduced mental alertness. These to reduced sensory capacity, fatigue,
and reduced mental alertness. These are all manifestations of human fatigue
and all greatly increase the chances that the people concerned will make
a slip, lapse or mistake."

All I asked was how stress can cause someone to mishear a statement about the depths of pits? Has it happened before that stress can alter a person's hearing? Why argue such if people under normal situations can mishear a 13 for a 30 in English due to bad pronounciation or a fair distance between the two parties? Hello.........
How can Jews under stress remember the most minute details about pit sizes, numbers of Jews per railway car or transport, names of cruel nazis and jewish sonderkommandos but not the colour of corpses? Do you not see your intellectual hypocrisy, Nessie? Do you not realize the games you are playing with your own source? This is classic cherry picking.

First of all these statements about fatigue DO NOT EXPLAIN why in one specific instance the Polish underground would write that pits in Belzec were thirty meters deep...information they CLAIMED to have gotten from a German on the inside. Was the German suffereing stress too? :lol: When I mention the absurd stories about murder in Belzec, he replies with this.
Such information came from Polish intelligence from second, third hand reports from people who saw stuff but did not know what was actually going on.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... _8672.html

"It is unknown by which means the Jews are liquidated in the camp. There are three assumptions: (1) electricity; (2) gas; (3) by pumping out the air.
With regard to (1): there is no visible source of electricity; with regard to (2): no supply of gas and no residue of the remaining gas after the ventilation of the gas chamber were observed; with regard to (3): there are no factors to deny this [possibility]. It was even verified that during the building of one of the barracks, the walls and floors were covered with metal sheets (for some purpose)."

The report admits the exact cause is unknown and it makes mistakes, like the metal sheeting, just like many intelligence reports make mistakes. You seem to think that witnesses and intelligence should be far more accurate and mistake free than they actually are. Hence I cannot and do not need to tell you how rooms were filled with water or mass electrocutions took place because those reports are wrong about those means of death.

Try giving a more accurate source, Nessie. Tell us what it is. It is straight from the Arad quotation I gave on this board before.
http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/ ... _v2JKO6XXR

"Reports on the Situation in Occupied Poland" were published in London periodically by the Polish Ministry-of-Interior-in-Exile. Some of these publications were retained in the Underground archives in Poland and the archives of the Government-in-Exile in London. In the report of the Delegatura for April 1942, Belzec was mentioned:
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
[SKIP 1-10]
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
11. "Jews arrived in Belzec (the township) looking for a witness who would testify that Jews are being killed there. They were ready to pay 120,000 zloty. They did not find a volunteer. It is unknown by which means the Jews are liquidated in the camp. There are three assumptions: (1) electricity; (2) gas; (3) by pumping out the air.
With regard to (1): there is no visible source of electricity; with regard to (2): no supply of gas and no residue of the remaining gas after the ventilation of the gas chamber were observed; with regard to (3): there are no factors to deny this [possibility]. It was even verified that during the building of one of the barracks, the walls and floors were covered with metal sheets (for some purpose). "


So it is Arad himself which is saying this report is bogus? So the Polish undeground he writes about is peddling lies or honest mistakes, Nessie? Let's read those reports again shall we, Nessie? Let's look at that APRIL 1942 report. Mattogno quoted some of it on page 11 of his book.
Werd @ Question re Mattogno's Belzec book
The first reports of Belzec appeared on April 8, 1942, a few weeks after the opening of the camp:16

“Among the Jews terrible desperation. We now know that every day there is a train arriving at Belzec from Lublin and one from Lvov, each with twenty cars. The Jews must get off, are taken behind a barbed-wire fence and murdered by an electric current[17] or poisoned with gas[18] and then the corpses are burnt[19]

16 Z. Klukowski, Dziennik z lat okupacji, Lublin 1959, p. 254.
17 “pradem elektrycznym”
18 “gazami”
19 “zwloki pala”

Page 12-13.
On November 15, 1942, Dr. Ignacy Schwarzbart, a member of the Polish National Council, made a declaration, in which he paraphrased the above report:24

“The methods applied in this mass extermination are, apart from executions, firing squads, electrocution and lethal gas-chambers. An electrocution station is installed at Belzec camp. Transports of settlers arrive at a siding, on the spot where the execution is to take place. The camp is policed by Ukrainians. The victims are ordered to strip naked ostensibly to have a bath and are then led to a barracks with a metal plate for floor. The door is then locked, electric current passes through the victims and their death is instantaneous. The bodies are loaded on the wagons and taken to
a mass grave some distance from the camp.”

24 Jacob Apenszlak (ed.), The Black Book of Polish Jewry, American Federation for Polish
Jews, New York 1943, p. 131.


And how, as Arad claimed, was it verified that the 'chambers' in Belzec had metal on the floors and walls? For what purpose? If the intenet is to gas them, why are metal floors AND WALLS needed by the nazis in gas chambers? Arad never explains and neither do you Nessie.

You seem to think that witnesses and intelligence should be far more accurate and mistake free than they actually are.

Why would a German lie about pits being thirty meters deep in Belzec? How could be possibly be mistaken? Was he blind or something? Come on, Nessie. :lol: If the Poles are supposed to be telling the truth about where they got this information from, these questions deserve to be asked. Why would the Poles say this about pit depth anway? Stress and fatigue? Was the German suffering from fatigue and the Poles believed him? Or were the Poles who published these oral reports so stressed at their typewriters that they mixed up 30 with some other number in Polish that sounds nothing like 30? Or did they too simply write down the oral report without questioning the depth of the pits? :lol: Is that really the best you have? Claiming every mistake is an honest one that can be easily explalined? Get real. Unless you can give examples of stress causing people who AREN'T COLOURBLIND or in need of glasses as was already established about Wiernick, to mistake one colour for another, while simultaneously being able to remember other more difficult, more intricate and detailed things (cherry picking hypocrisy with a source as I explained above) then I don't buy your theory Wiernick did make an honest mistake about the corpse colour. Unless you can show proven examples of others before or after him did it for reasons you claimed, there is no HARD EVIDENCE for you to claim Wiernick honestly made such an error. Try actually strengthening your inductive argument, Nessie like a proper scientist!
Last edited by Werd on Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The use of logical fallacies

Postby hermod » 5 years 1 month ago (Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:07 pm)

If Holohoaxers want to call every untenable allegation from "survivors" a mistake due to trauma, guilt, pride or anything else, maybe we could call their allegations about gas chambers mistakes due to trauma, guilt, revenge, anti-German hatred, typhus (causing hallucinations), mental disorders (very common among Jews), the desire for their 15 minutes of fame or anything else. Let's see if Nessie likes seeing his weapon used against him and his beloved 'witnesses'... :wink:
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: The use of logical fallacies

Postby borjastick » 5 years 1 month ago (Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:31 am)

Excuses excuses they always have excuses galore to explain this and explain that. They twist and turn.

The witness statements have always been a source of frustrating argument. When it suits them we are supposed to bow down and worship people like Wiesel, Zisblatt et al and never question the mad stories they spew out. Yet when it suits Nessie we are supposed to give the witnesses room for wiggling away from accuracy because they were a little bit tired or fatigued or had a stress fracture of the brain...

But when we ask questions about the killing methods as claimed above such as electrified floors and incineration rooms we are told it was just bad intelligence.

I have been having a ding dong with a person on youtube about the big H on one of Spielberg's witness interviews. For every counter point I advanced this person responded that there are thousands of witnesses and so I must be wrong. When I told them that there are many witnesses who survived transportation through Treblinka and those who never saw or heard of gas chambers and mass deaths, this person then got aggressive and accused me of being monumentally stupid, uneducated and a far right nazi.

They've got all the bases covered, the game's up chaps, we're done for!
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: The use of logical fallacies

Postby Nessie. » 5 years 1 month ago (Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:51 am)

Taking witness errors and intelligence report mistakes and then dismissing them as incredulous is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The denier/revisionist aim is to dismiss all witness evidence by concentrating on a few who have lied or made unexplainable comments or clear mistakes. That is a different subject to the use of fallacies.

Werd, hermod, borjastick your desire to discuss that issue about witnesses is a red herring fallacy.

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Re: The use of logical fallacies

Postby Werd » 5 years 1 month ago (Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:44 am)

by Nessie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:53 am
Reply posted after here

The use of logical fallacies

Taking witness errors and intelligence report mistakes and then dismissing them as incredulous is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The denier/revisionist aim is to dismiss all witness evidence by concentrating on a few who have lied or made unexplainable comments or clear mistakes. That is a different subject to the use of fallacies.

Werd, hermod, borjastick your desire to discuss that issue about witnesses is a red herring fallacy.

:lol: Right on cue. I predicted in another topic, in another post, he would go this route.
Werd @ Question re Mattogno's Belzec book

Nessie, you misunderstand by accident, or on purpose. The revisionist aim is not to dismiss all witness statements because we quote witness statements all the time who say they never heard of gas chambers after the war. We do not consider Paul Rassinier and Joseph Burg to be liars. We consider authors of the Polish Underground reports to be liars with their claims of pits thirty meters deep and others like . Get it straight and knock off the strawman.

If the holocaust is held up partially by witness statements, then you can't claim to have proof without witness statements. This means witness statements have been analayzed and accepted as true by some people. So when someone claims something, then have an onus probandi, a burden of proof. So by making clamis, they open themselves up to criticism. And if we find some reports to be incorrect, those witnesses can be dismissed as lacking credibility. If you want to salvage any of their testimony, you have to look elsewhere to see if others who don't make incredible claims that violate the laws of physics are able to prove these other parts of testimony that are possibly salvagable.

How's that for deductive logic, Nessie?

By the way you still haven't answered my questions in my last post. Let me remind you...

1. How is it that fatigue and trauma prevents Wiernick, a non blind, non colour blind man from seperating yellow and red, but doesn't prevent him from remembering other intricate, more complex details such as ones already mentioned by me? Can can give examples of stress causing people who AREN'T COLOURBLIND or in need of glasses as was already established about Wiernick, to mistake one colour for another, while simultaneously being able to remember other more difficult things? Show me how this is possible, or even THAT it is possible and has happened. Give me some evidence to show this has happened before if you expect me to believe you. Try actually strengthening your inductive argument, Nessie like a proper scientist! If none of the gassings stories make sense, then gassing clearly didn't happen. Beatings and shootings, sure. NOBODY DENIES THAT EITHER. But everyone in world war two did that.

2. Was the German suffering from fatigue and the Polish Underground believed him without question? Or were the Poles who published these oral reports in paper form so stressed at their typewriters that they mixed up 30 with some other number in Polish that sounds nothing like 30? Or did they too simply write down the oral report without questioning the depth of the pits? :lol: Is that really the best you have? When a mistake occurs, an explanation is available for how the causal chain worked. You still have not given said required explanation. You made a claim, now justify it. Fulfill your onus probandi. Be a good little debater.

3. How, as Arad claimed, was it verified that the 'chambers' in Belzec had metal on the floors and walls? For what purpose? If the intenet is to gas them, why are metal floors AND WALLS needed by the nazis in gas chambers? Arad never explains and neither do you Nessie.

4. RE: Your statement. "Taking witness errors and intelligence report mistakes and then dismissing them as incredulous is throwing the baby out with the bath water." is yet ANOTHER STRAWMAN. Nobody holds to that argument. If none of the gassings stories make sense, then gassing clearly didn't happen. Beatings and shootings, sure. NOBODY DENIES THAT EITHER. But everyone in world war two did that.

Now the key phrase is Witness errors. How can an eyewitness make an error? Explain to me the Wiernick thing in #1 as an example please. And then answer the rest of my questions. STOP DODGING. You can't call it a mistake or an error WITHOUT EXPLAINING HOW IT TOOK PLACE. Oh yeah, wait a minute. Let me back up. You said, trauma and stress, but as I showed here already you are confusing apples and oranges.
Werd @ Question re Mattogno's Belzec book
Werd wrote:It wasn't a lie. It was an honest mistake due to trauma and fatigue.

Okay, what was the real thing, they mistook this non-real thing for?

I don't have to answer since we already admit it was false.

But to know it is false is to be able to seperate truth from falsity. So what was it that was true that they based this mistake on? What was the source of this misinterpretation?

Trauma and fatigue.

I'm asking about the source thing itself, not the mental process of the human interpreting the source thing. Don't confuse the two. You said 'trauma and fatigue' already but this doesn't answer the most basic question...

FALLACY! FALLACY!



And on and on ad Nessieum. :mrgreen:


You can't claim to want to discuss the holocaust without wanting to discuss witness testimonies. All of it is open to discussion, Nessie. Your special pleading is a type of fallacy, as well as your strawman illustrated earlier.

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Re: The use of logical fallacies

Postby Hannover » 5 years 1 month ago (Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:36 am)

Nessie. wrote:Taking witness errors and intelligence report mistakes and then dismissing them as incredulous is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The denier/revisionist aim is to dismiss all witness evidence by concentrating on a few who have lied or made unexplainable comments or clear mistakes. That is a different subject to the use of fallacies.

Werd, hermod, borjastick your desire to discuss that issue about witnesses is a red herring fallacy.
I challenge Nessie to give us statements by / from 'witnesses and intelligence reports' which he feels are factual. Be specific and precise as to what is said, what is claimed. You will be asked to prove the content. No dodging at this forum.

Also, I challenge Nessie to tell us which 'few witnesses and intelligence reports' it is that Revisionists 'concentrate on'. Be specific and precise as to what it is that Revisionists say about these. No dodging at this forum.

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: The use of logical fallacies

Postby hermod » 5 years 1 month ago (Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:44 am)

Nessie. wrote:Werd, hermod, borjastick your desire to discuss that issue about witnesses is a red herring fallacy.


And define any inconvenient counter-argument as a fallacy is a childish behavior.

You look like a group of children playing Harry Potter with the leader telling his comrades which magic spells and supernatural powers are allowed and which ones are forbidden. :lol:

Image

Keep cool, Nessie Fallacy...
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: The use of logical fallacies

Postby Bob » 5 years 1 month ago (Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:17 am)

I would say the topic should be concentrated on the use of logical fallacies as per opening comment, not on witnesses, reports etc. unless they are directly connected with the topic of this thread.

Hence Nessie should answer this post in the first place as he still did not provide requested examples leaving aside dodging of other points:

Moderator wrote:If you are able, please give our readers specific examples of these as used by Revisionists when discussing the various issues within the 'holocaust' debate. As it stands now you are just stating that fallacies generally exist ... which no one argues.


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