Anne Frank's stepsister and stepmother survived.

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Kingfisher
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Anne Frank's stepsister and stepmother survived.

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 2 months ago (Mon May 28, 2012 10:58 am)

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2012/05/interview-eva-schloss
Yet another miraculous survivor. Although her mother only married Frank's father after the war, she knew her.
I knew her from 11 to 13 and at that time she was not so special. I didn’t have any inkling that she might write a diary with such meaning. She was a child, interested in clothes and fashion, in hairstyles, in boyfriends.

Hmm. Really?

Her mother was selected for the gas chamber (by Mengele of course), yet miraculously survived (we aren't told why she wasn't gassed). Her father and brother presumably didn't, but there is no suggestion they were gassed; they were selected for labour. and probably died of disease.

She does have a tattoo. Apparently very valuable for educational purposes:
I’m glad to have it because schoolchildren always want to see it. I say to them it’s very important for you to remember because when we are not around in 20 or 30 years, a new generation of youngsters will have to keep the story alive and say, yes, I’ve seen somebody, I’ve seen their tattoo.

It was 54 years before she decided to write about it. Amazing she could remember everything so well. I expect she had a bit of help though. The story is published in the Puffin imprint. Isn't that for kids?

So yet again we find that within a given group we have a few survivors, a few known to have died of typhus, a few not seen again, and the only one selected for gassing wasn't gassed.

Apparently the exhibition that prompted the interview is entitled "We too might move on". Move on? Seems like the last thing they want to do.

They're accepting comments.

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Re: Anne Frank's stepsister and stepmother survived.

Postby truth » 7 years 2 months ago (Mon May 28, 2012 5:40 pm)

What a waste of time. Why is she coming forward now? She could have made money much earlier in her life, as in capitalism everything sells, everything is up for Sale, including the Holocaust. Money = GOD.

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Re: Anne Frank's stepsister and stepmother survived.

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 2 months ago (Tue May 29, 2012 12:52 pm)


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Re: Anne Frank's stepsister and stepmother survived.

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 2 months ago (Tue May 29, 2012 5:40 pm)

The discussion is up and running at: http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2012/05/interview-eva-schloss.

Your support would be appreciated.

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Re: Anne Frank's stepsister and stepmother survived.

Postby borjastick » 7 years 2 months ago (Wed May 30, 2012 12:56 am)

Kingfisher. I tried to comment at New Statesman but there was a 'technical issue' which stopped me doing so. Is that a rat I smell?
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Anne Frank's stepsister and stepmother survived.

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 2 months ago (Wed May 30, 2012 3:31 am)

Not sure, Borjastick, but there does seem to be a genuine technical issue in that my reply to the second post appeared at the top, though posts 1 and 2 followed the NS's usual downward sequence.

[EDIT]
Try again. I just saw there's a reply to my last post.

The one respondent is coming up with genuine debate rather than name-calling, but so far I haven't shown my "true colours", only attacked the Industry.

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Re: Anne Frank's stepsister and stepmother survived.

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 2 months ago (Wed May 30, 2012 10:45 am)

The comments are coming in now, including 2 that question the reality of the H.

My favourite, though, from the producer of a play about Eva Schloss, was:
The play about Eva is hugely successful in educating young impressionable people...

Yeah. Bet it is! Get 'em young like the Jesuits used to say.

Please come along, folks. http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2012/05/interview-eva-schloss

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Re: Anne Frank's stepsister and stepmother survived.

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 2 months ago (Thu May 31, 2012 6:36 am)

All comments on this article have now been removed.

Mind you, this was a special Jewish issue of the magazine.

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Re: Anne Frank's stepsister and stepmother survived.

Postby Kladderadatsch » 7 years 2 months ago (Thu May 31, 2012 8:20 am)

Thanks KF. I suspected that the comments thread might be purged so I saved it yesterday evening. At that point, there were twenty-six comments on the thread. As far as I saw, only one more got added before the purge (or at least before I hit the sack last night), so the backup is fairly complete. Just a pity that I missed that last comment, since it was an excellent overview.

Anyway, I'm going to post the saved comments below. I've also written a comment for the "Don't Leave a Comment" thread currently running on the NewStatesman site, since it offers an opportunity to point out the hypocrisy of the editors' censorship regime, and do a little more teaching on behalf of free speech. So here's my comment there first (I'll be posting it on NS, as soon as I have the url for the saved comments thread to paste in), with the comments thread to follow.

To comments thread, NewStatesman: http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/inter ... ve-comment

The internet has its trolls, yes, but in many cases commenters leave comments because the infotainment fare served up by media outlets is incomplete, agenda-driven, dishonest and self-serving. Commenters use the comments section to correct that disinformation, and to point fellow readers toward better explanations and alternate sources of information so that they can make up their own minds about issues outside the thinkbox confines of "mainstream" discourse. Since the world is a complex place and people have differing opinions, this often leads to debate, but so what? The "worst" that generally comes out of that is that the comments section proves more interesting and enlightening than the paid article that inspired it.

A case in point. Yesterday, a small debate formed around some comments at the end of an article on the site here, Jemima Khan's softball interview with Auschwitz alumna Eva Schloss:

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/cul ... va-schloss

The comments were for the most part intelligent, civil and informative. There was a bit of bullying and obnoxious language, but it was confined entirely to people trying to shout down the "deniers" who had posted to say that there was more to real Holocaust education than listening to self-styled survivors repeat the same old stories. Not something that everyone is going to agree with, or even be happy with, but a real discussion, and something that a media outlet committed to public debate should have felt honor-bound to allow and even protect.

So what happened? Why, NewStatesman has purged the comments section, of course! Down the memory hole. Fortunately, most, though not all of the comments were saved before the purge, and can now be viewed at:



So anyone who's interested can still see what got written on the "lavatory wall," as Ms. Lewis calls it, and make up their own mind about whether it really is the case, at least for the NewStatesman, that "The idea that disabling comments is returning to a model where journalists told the audience things, and the audience mutely accepted what was slopped out, is nonsense."

And for a bonus, we can see how long this comment lasts too.
Last edited by Kladderadatsch on Thu May 31, 2012 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anne Frank's stepsister and stepmother survived.

Postby Kladderadatsch » 7 years 2 months ago (Thu May 31, 2012 8:24 am)

Purged comments thread from NewStatesman interview with Eva Schloss, 30 May 2012.

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/cul ... va-schloss

(The reply threading gets flattened out because of the formatting here, but it shouldn't be too hard to follow the various conversations.)

26 comments
reinenVernunft's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 18:37 — reinenVernunft (not verified)

The "Holocaust" now enjoys a status that is more like an official state religion than the commemoration of an historical event.
In Germany, even questioning some of the more arcane minutiae (chemical traces in a gas chamber, authenticity of certain documents) of the dogma of the six million can earn a scholar or dissident a hefty prison term.
Historical truths, like any others, do not fear scrutiny or impartial investigation, and do not need the coercive arm of the state to act as a gendarme to protect them.
The fact is that the historical narrative which is propping up the current dystopia of the globalized, debt enslaved and multi-cultural Europe and its American appendix is hanging by the thinnest of threads.
The so called "Final Solution" was emigration, and later, resettlement of the Jews outside of Europe, not their physical extermination.
There never was an order given by Hitler, or any other functionary of the Reich, calling for the murder of all Jews.
There have been no mass graves or traces of remains found which would corroborate anything like the millions of alleged extermination victims.
The "assembly line of death" (mass gassings and cremations) as described by the eyewitnesses- including inmates and contrite SS members- are for the most part, an utter logistical impossibility.
All of the so called "extermination camps" were located in territory subsequently occupied by the Soviets, who were wont to commit atrocities- such as Katyn- and blame them on the Germans.
Must the Shoa business go on?

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reinenVernunft's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 18:37 — reinenVernunft (not verified)

The "Holocaust" now enjoys a status that is more like an official state religion than the commemoration of an historical event.
In Germany, even questioning some of the more arcane minutiae (chemical traces in a gas chamber, authenticity of certain documents) of the dogma of the six million can earn a scholar or dissident a hefty prison term.
Historical truths, like any others, do not fear scrutiny or impartial investigation, and do not need the coercive arm of the state to act as a gendarme to protect them.
The fact is that the historical narrative which is propping up the current dystopia of the globalized, debt enslaved and multi-cultural Europe and its American appendix is hanging by the thinnest of threads.
The so called "Final Solution" was emigration, and later, resettlement of the Jews outside of Europe, not their physical extermination.
There never was an order given by Hitler, or any other functionary of the Reich, calling for the murder of all Jews.
There have been no mass graves or traces of remains found which would corroborate anything like the millions of alleged extermination victims.
The "assembly line of death" (mass gassings and cremations) as described by the eyewitnesses- including inmates and contrite SS members- are for the most part, an utter logistical impossibility.
All of the so called "extermination camps" were located in territory subsequently occupied by the Soviets, who were wont to commit atrocities- such as Katyn- and blame them on the Germans.
Must the Shoa business go on?

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DuDochNicht's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 17:02 — DuDochNicht (not verified)

My life has coincided with the Conversation about this, what is so damaged in our souls? I remember: as a child thinking that all of the silence and anger of the 60s was certainly caused by the "questionaire", it asked Wessies 131 questions to ensure their readiness for Full Western Democracy. Nope, the process was over in a few years, and was remembered in part for causing internees to wear funny clothes... I remember: the BundesKids (Wessies) in the 70s were desperate to know just what the hell had happened, they had been told very little, the ruins of the Camp system were as mysterious to them as Mayan pyramids. Explaining Dad's behavior was not required for them, just a brief explanation covering why half of the country is missing, and why their culture is the World's synonym for bad.
I remember: OssieKids were completely different, by the 70s they were jaded about the whole of history. The Soviets did not even bother with a questionaire, Nazis were put right back into positions of authority. Trust me, the transition to the western ways is baffling, and only in the West was there a special fascination for the hitlertime.
I remember: Operation Paperclip families. For one dollar a day, and no formal status in America, selected engineers and scientists worked for Nasa and the US Department of Defense. I have noticed that now, 67 years later, they are still sometimes condemned. 131 questions answered carefully would not have helped. I remember Huntsville engineers singing the Horst Wessel Lied for US Astronauts in Florida. The children of these immigrants now number in the thousands. I remember being shown the US space program during the Apollo program, they were building Moonships for America.
I married a girl who had not been taught that she was Jewish, she had recreated the entire religion and culture of her ancestors from books. Life is still an adventure with her, we have a Daughter now, Miriam. We have a new world. Neue Heimat.

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Franz Holtzhäuser's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 14:14 — Franz Holtzhäuser (not verified)

Hello folks,

I wonder only one thing right now, and have no idea if this has been asked - as I have no time to read the previous comments right now. So, onto the question!

Why was her mother selected to the gas chamber, but not gassed? This is a crucial detail - but I suspect we never will get a reply to this question, not a truthful one anyhow!
I believe somebody may answer "by sheer providence!", yeah right ;-)

Faithfully,
FRANZ

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DuDochNicht's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 19:00 — DuDochNicht (not verified)

Franz, an old friend who's father had been taken then had seen out the war desperately clinging to the fact that his father was assumed by his classmates to be a another soldier father. We have found the Deathbook page, Mathausen, dead by 1300 hours, natural causes. Either vague Socialism or Naturalism got him condemned and killed. The BRD government has not repatriated all of the "traitors" yet. They have made progress since '92, still my friend's lost father died dishonored, and we are yet waiting. Lives back then were sometimes bafflingly fast. My father's nightmares were of the debris, some of it human, which his airplane flew through as he attacked ground targets. In the 50s he found that he had attacked a cousin. My stepfather's nightmares were of being trapped in U175, sinking fast while under attack. My governess had been raised in SS camps, her nightmares were of starving. Our family had been very involved in getting people out of the way of hitler, biologists, physicists, business partners, the von Trapps. Captain von Trapp had only his family, his clothes, and a cigarette case engraved with the locations of ships which he had sunk in the Med. My uncle put the case in his pocket, and walked into the US with him. As a schoolboy, I remember Hasso von Manteufel complaining about how the trains were unavailable at times, hurting his whole "Panzer Graf" effort. He used to grumble about Keitel putting him on hold, while his tank crews went unsupplied. Spooky old Manteufel would have been happy without the Camp system to get in the way of his war. Between you and me Franz, G. Grass needed to offer to serve on the Isreali atombomb carrying U Boat he fears so much. He was willing as a boy to risk his life on the Great Admirals fleet, now he just writes criticism of Israel and Germany. Was gesagt werden muss is that we are in this together. Alles.
Ernst

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jankaas's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 16:46 — jankaas (not verified)

i see, so because not every single Jew was gassed there is no Holocaust?
you also find it fitting to post a wink eye emoticon and inject a bit of comedy into this subject matter. this marks you out as an offensive twat.

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Franz Holtzhäuser's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 16:57 — Franz Holtzhäuser (not verified)

I'm sorry but you're wrong. I am a man, see? I do not have a vagina, if this interests yourself.
I also think calling somebody a "twat" is not productive for you. Name-calling is not a valid argument.
Why did you not answer my question, Jankaas? Why was the mother not thrown into the gas chamber despite being selected for gassing? Please provide an answer without calling me names.
If you like comedy I suggest you read about Fred Kort. There's a video of this joker, see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1y__Qves_s

I'm not trying to change the subject, but you brought up comedy. So this is for you, my friend.

I await in awe for your answer with regard to my question about the mother.

Faithfully,
FRANZ H.

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jankaas's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 17:16 — jankaas (not verified)

you are most certainly not a man Franz. and thanks for confirming you are just another petty little Holocaust denier. you are dismissed.

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Franz Holtzhäuser's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 17:24 — Franz Holtzhäuser (not verified)

No, I'm not denying anything. I just don't believe in the Holocaust, my friend.
Unfortunately it is a requirement by enforcement of law in my country of origin to believe in the Holocaust - if a belief is dropped and a curious mind asks a doubtful question the authorities in Germany (and ten other countries) will put me in jail.

Luckily for myself I'm not situated in my country of origin in this moment. I'm elsewhere, and there isn't a law in this country which makes it illegal to not believe in the Holocaust. So I choose not to believe in it because I've studied it for a long time and have drawn the conclusion that the allegations of "gas chambers" are sheer nonsense and nothing but lies.
Now back to the topic. Why was the mother not put in the gas chamber, where Zyklon B pellets would drop on the ice-cold cement floor? I await for your answer to my question.

Jankaas,
I assure you, I'm a male.

Thanks for your replies.

Faithfully,
FRANZ HOLTZHÄUSER

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John P.'s picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 19:14 — John P. (not verified)

Hello Franz,

I share your concerns about the prohibition of Holocaust denial. Certainly I haven't found much credible material to come from deniers, but everyone should have the right to have their soap box and discuss whatever their heart wants wherever they may be (be it UFOS, fake moon landings, lizzards, etc.). As I pointed out in an earlier response, I also don't agree with the ban on the denial of the reality of the expulson of millions ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe either, nor for that matter any of the similar laws in Europe about the Armenian genocide, the Ukrainian famine, etc. These tragedies happened, and no amount of 'denial' and its 'revisionism' can chance that fact, unfortunately.

Anyway, you say that you have studied the Holocaust for a long time. Generally these statements are always tossed about by anyone who holds a conspiratorial belief, but when push comes to shove, they know very little and rather only "study" works that agree with their own viewpoint. Perhaps you are different, but who knows. At any rate your conclusions about the gas chambers from your studies are grieviously misinformed, I'm afraid. Anyway, why the isolation of the gas chambers? What about the shootings, the ghettos, the death marches, the forced labor, the disease, etc.? Such conspiratorial beliefs largely focus on technical minutia (JFK-magic bullet and 9/11-burning buildings) without any real attempt to explain circumstances, context, nor offer a proper revision of the event itself.

As for your questions, have you read the 1999 work of Eva Schoss? Perhaps she gives an explanation in her work. I have not, so cannot say for sure.

Cheers to you, and good luck in your future studies. John

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26 comments
Franz Holtzhäuser's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 19:38 — Franz Holtzhäuser (not verified)

Hello Mr. John,

No I've not read the book. I just can't understand how somebody would be selected to be thrown into a "gas chamber" with Zyklon B pellets pouring in onto the cold cement floor, underground -- and then miraculously the mother isn't gassed by the ever so evil Germans.
Perhaps somebody found a like for her hair due ? "Hmm, we made a faulty choice lady - back to the gang over there. Oh, and nice haircut!".
Sorry to be "comedial" about it, but if you read holocaust testimonies there's a lot of comedy in them, sick comedy! I recall one damsel who ate diamonds each day, then she went to the toilet, dumped them out, ate them again. For a very long period of time.
Mengele also experimented on her, a lot. He allegedly brutalized her arm - but there's no marks from this brutal medial treatment by Mr. Mengele. Nothing!

I do not just say I have researched this subject a lot. I really have done that - and I'm willing to debate anybody here at CODOH Forum:
index.php

If you think that you can defend your belief in the holocaust story I invite you to debate it. Please remember that at this forum we discuss specifics.
If you want, please try to debate your belief and we'll see how it will go.
I personally dropped my belief in the holocaust a long time ago. But when I am in Germany of course I can't be so obvious about it, otherwise they put me in jail - the maximum sentence is five years. Isn't that sweet?
I understand perfectly why this story needs the protection of law enforcement - it can't stand up to scrutiny in any form.

I bid you good bye John!

Faithfully,
FRANZ HOLTZHÄUSER.

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Klaus Alderdatsch's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 19:30 — Klaus Alderdatsch (not verified)

Quote: "At any rate your conclusions about the gas chambers from your studies are grieviously misinformed, I'm afraid."

John, would you care to elaborate as to why Franz is "grieviously misinformed"? For example, perhaps you could point to some specific works which you have read (you give the impression of having read a good deal in this field) and which make an unanswerable argument as to the reality of the famed Nazi gas chambers. You know, something so persuasive that only someone who is "grieviously misinformed" could doubt the conclusions.

Then, we could see whether Franz is familiar with the work in question, and if he has any counter-suggestions to make about works which answer its arguments.

That might provide an opportunity for people to inform themselves about both sides of this debate.

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Klaus Alderdatsch's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 13:54 — Klaus Alderdatsch (not verified)

Quote: "it was a unique event, the 1st time an modern industrialised nation used modern industrial technology to try and remove a people from the face of the earth."

The article is about Anne Frank's cousin. So it's a good place to ask, How did Anne Frank die? Where? And when?

I'll save you a trip to Wikipedia. She died died of typhus, a devastating communicable disease spread by lice, while interned in Bergen-Belsen concentration camp in northern Germany, about 400 miles as the crow flies from Auschwitz. As for when, the exact date is unknown, but it was some time in late March 1945, when an epidemic of typhus spread through Bergen-Belsen, killing thousands of inmates.

Incidentally, Anne's father Otto Frank survived the war, and was in the Auschwitz infirmary (that is, the camp _hospital_) when Red Army troops overran the camp in January 1945.

Some questions for anyone interested in learning a little more about Germany's Jewish policy during WW2:

1) Why was Anne deported all the way to Auschwitz in Poland, only to be sent back to Bergen-Belsen half a year later?

2) Why was Otto Frank in the camp hospital at Auschwitz? If he was sick, why didn't the Germans kill him? And why was there a hospital at Auschwitz at all?

3) What was the best method available to the Germans at the time, using their "modern industrial technology," for controlling epidemic typhus?

There are many more questions you could look into, but those three are good ones to start with. GIYF.

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jankaas's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 16:39 — jankaas (not verified)

"The article is about Anne Frank's cousin. So it's a good place to ask, How did Anne Frank die? Where? And when?"

that makes zero sense Klaus. you correctly say the article is about Eva not her cousin Anne, yet all your questions are about Anne, her father, typhoid. anything but the topic of the article. most peculiar.

it seems you are suggesting that there was some sort of altruistic motive for moving typhoid sufferers to top notch hospitals. that's a new tactic as far as i'm concerned, though it doesn't impress. seriously Klaus, you think that having numbers tatood on the 'patient' is a reasonable administrative method for medical matters?
you come across as a Holocaust denier. are you?
(that is a yes or no question)

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Klaus Alderdatsch's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 20:05 — Klaus Alderdatsch (not verified)

Jankaas, you seem upset by my questions. Why is that? Are you afraid of the conclusions that people might reach if they explored them for themselves?

In fairness, I will try to answer your question. It's not really worthy of an answer, mind you, since it is clear that you are not actually asking for information, but are merely looking to score bully points by stamping a label on people who disagree with you. Indeed, you've already proved as much yourself. In another exchange earlier today you said to Franz, "you are just another petty little Holocaust denier. you are dismissed." In other words, apparently you want us to believe that

Holocaust denier = someone who can be dismissed

and you are confident enough of that equation that you think you can say it here and be taken seriously. This is the essence of an "ad hominem" attack (call the person a name, and pretend that you've disqualified them from being taken seriously), and frankly Jankaas, it is the "argument" of someone who has no argument to make.

So am I "just another petty little Holocaust denier"? Only if you're afraid of an argument. If you are, you can call me one, say "you are dismissed" in your best Col. Klink imitation, and imagine that you've scored a point somehow. But really, have you?

Personally, I'd call myself someone who's interested in the truth about the Holocaust, and has learned enough about the subject to know that much of the "official narrative" is open to question. So I encourage people to start asking questions, including the ones I gave above.

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Franz Holtzhäuser's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 17:29 — Franz Holtzhäuser (not verified)

So why did they move the sick Anne Frank, why was she not thrown into the "gas chamber"? She was sick, she could not make any productive work for the German war effort - so why did the Germans not gas Eva's cousin Anne? Curious minds wish to know your wisdom on this question, my dear friend.

Faithfully,
FRANZ HOLTZHÄUSER

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Klaus Alderdatsch's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 13:57 — Klaus Alderdatsch (not verified)

Correction: The article is about Anne Frank's _stepsister_. Sorry about that.

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Klaus Alderdatsch's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 13:57 — Klaus Alderdatsch (not verified)

Correction: The article is about Anne Frank's _stepsister_.

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Nic careem's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 13:44 — Nic careem (not verified)

As a close friend of Dr Eva Schloss and producer/director of the award winning play about Eva and Anne Frank I am curious to why some people repeatedly keep talking about the need to move on. Would these people feel the same about our annual remembrance day. I don't here people speak of the films, books and plays about world war one and two as an 'industry'.

The play about Eva is hugely successful in educating young impressionable people that to forget history is the step to repeating it.

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JJJ's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 15:27 — JJJ (not verified)

Yes. It is also interesting that there are very, very few Holocaust deniers or 'revisionists' who would not wish to repeat the Holocaust.

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jankaas's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 12:19 — jankaas (not verified)

growing up in Holland in the 60s/70s i knew quite a few Holocaust survivors just like Eva. one very close family friend had the same 1st name and her personal story is equally heart breaking; family members annihilated, married a man who had been castrated in the camps, which eventually contributed to their divorce. unfathomable relentless grief, decade after miserable decade.

i think Martin Amis put it best when he described the Holocaust as "species shame".

it was a unique event, the 1st time an modern industrialised nation used modern industrial technology to try and remove a people from the face of the earth. we should never forget that.

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Albert R's picture
Tue, 2012-05-29 23:16 — Albert R (not verified)

"So why single out the "Holocaust Industry" for criticism?"

I didn't. They have singled themselves out. Are you aware of a comparable Ukrainian famine Industry (to cite just one example from the many I gave)? I doubt if as many as 10% of the UK population are even aware there ever was such a famine. When did you last see a TV programme or a film spectacular about it? Is it a sub-plot to half the other movies with a connection to its period? Are there Ukrainian-famine museums all over the place? Are children in school indoctrinated in "Famine education"? Is Russia paying out massive compensation to "Holodomor survivors" and the Ukrainian state? Are the rest of Europe supposed to feel guilty about it?

The "Holocaust" didn't come about until the late 70's when history gave place to maudlin propaganda and myth-creation. (Myths can contain historical truth: the myth lies in the way it is used. The French Revolution is the founding myth of the French Republic. Likewise for "the American Revolution" and the United States. That doesn't mean the events in question didn't happen.) Finkelstein uses the small-h holocaust for what actually happened and capital-H Holocaust for the creation of the Industry. I have outlined his case in the previous post. If you don't have time or inclination to read his book you can look in Wikipedia or visit his web site.

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JJJ's picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 12:39 — JJJ (not verified)

Hi Albert,

The Holocaust was commemorated in Israel, for example, long before the late 70s. And the Eichmann trial in 1961 was a catylist for much renewed awareness of the most infamous crime of the 20th century - the attempt to exterminate a single people using all the instruments of the State including technology to achieve that aim.

Finkelstein's motives are unclear and in any case his view among Social Scientists or Historians is a minority one.

By the way, when you say 'That doesn't mean the events in question didn't happen', do you therefore agree that the facts of the Holocaust as researched and catalogued comprehensively did happen? Or are you what is called a 'revisionist'?

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John P.'s picture
Wed, 2012-05-30 07:41 — John P. (not verified)

A Ukrainian famine industry? Depends by what your standards are. Up until the fall of communism and the establishment of an independent Ukraine, Ukrainian emigrants and anti-communists supported that famine's commemoration in nations around the world. They campaigned for various countries as well as international recognition of the event as a "genocide" and the whole bit, and even with the liberation of Ukraine such efforts have continued around the world (many times not supported by the Yanukovych regime). In Ukraine there are now many monuments, tours, a memorial and research center, etc. Commemoration groups have also teemed with other groups who have been advocating different Genocide curriculum for public schools around the Western world. So while the SCALE may differ, there is very much an "industry." The same holds true for the Irish famine, which has only recently started to be commemorated but which has also caused the establishment of an "industry." New memorial sites have appeared all over the island, numerous events and festivities appeared, a flood of books and news articles tried to gain people's attention and money. As with the Ukrainian effort, they have also worked to include information on the Great Hunger in public school curriculums. There also are videos and television shows made about the events, but again a question of scale; and again, many parts of the Holocaust "industry" have worked to be INCLUSIVE of other and more contemporary tragedies rather than singling themselves out. Commemoration industries are also far from being isolated to genocide & similar type catastrophes; take a look at the American Civil War, for instance.

As for the "Holocaust" not coming about until the late 1970s, as "maudlin propaganda" no less, I do not understand what you mean. Widespread non-Jewish recognition of the event didn't take place until then (I'd move it to late 1960s-early/mid 1970s myself) but many Jewish communities around the world had been dealing with, discussing, and commemorating (e.g. Yom Hashoa) the tragedy starting after the war. See the recent edited collection by Devaid Cesarini and the work of Hasia Diner. Of course this rise took place in the context of a rise in worldwide recognition of the presence and significance of minority populations, especially with the civil rights movement. And in what sense is it "propaganda"?

Anyway, may I ask why are you so strongly opposed to Holocaust and genocide education efforts? You just stated your opinion that 10% of the UK are unaware of the Ukrainian famine. A recent poll found a quarter of British youth to be unaware of Auschwitz and its purpose. Do you not believe any value can be gained from such an effort and helping increase such knowledge? By your comments about "half the other movies with a connection to its period" having some reference to the Holocaust, you seem to wish to ignore that particular event and its significance. The members of the Holocaust industry and their actions which you disagree with must be seen independent from the wider importance of the event itself (unless history itself should be discarded, as all understandings of history are socially constructed for different reasons).

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Albert R's picture
Tue, 2012-05-29 18:18 — Albert R (not verified)

Why are the sufferings of a single ethnicity allowed do dominate perception of the catastrophe that was the Second World War, to the exclusion of all others?

What about the millions of Crimean Tatars, Chechens, Volga Germans, Latvians, Poles, etc. deported by Stalin, a high proportion dying and all undergoing appalling conditions. What about the millions of young men of every nationality called away from their homes and loved ones to go and fight and, in many cases be killed, again in appalling conditions, especially on the German-Russian front? What about the millions of Germans expelled from the Eastern territories and subjected to murder, rape and pillage by the Soviet army and by Poles and Czechs? What about the prisoners in Japanese POW and civilian camps? What about the millions who starved in the Bengal famine? What about the Dutch who starved in 1945? What about the hundreds of thousands, probably mllions who fried alive in Hamburg, Dresden, Cologne, Pforzheim, Tokyo, Nagasaki and Hiroshima, as well as London and Coventry? All the people of all nationalities caught up in the catastrophic wave of war-related epidemics which hit principally, but not only the camps, and which would appear from the article to have caused the deaths of the interviewee’s father and brother as well as Anne Frank and her sister? The people of Okinawa, a third of whom died, while the rest went through hell?

Norman Finkelstein, himself a Jew, identified some 12 years ago in The Holocaust Industry how awful events of 65-70 years ago have been turned into The Holocaust, a self-financing maudlin quasi-religious cult (complete with shrines and pilgrimages) and money-making operation which has made a small group of individuals like Elie Wiesel extremely rich, held the Swiss banks to ransom and is exploited to win sympathy for Israel.

It is time to do what the slogan of that exhibition says, and to Move On.

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John P.'s picture
Tue, 2012-05-29 22:25 — John P. (not verified)

Interesting comment, Albert.

I don't know of too many people who ONLY focus on the sufferings of one ethnicity, and ignore others. Each country and group of people is free to memorialize its losses and any traumatic events as it wishes, and those would naturally highlight their own suffering. I'd hope you would at least agree with that, and that such is their right. Every event and crime that you listed, in what appears to be a basic attempt at relativising suffering during that period, has been memorialized somewhere and to some extent. For instance, the public denial of the expulsions of millions of Germans from Eastern Europe was prohibited under German law (the same law that also punished mocking and denying the victims of the Nazi regime, who DO in fact appear to focus ONLY on Jews).

Even outside of the war at other times, various other national tragedies have been marked globally. The Irish Famine, the Ukrainian famine, the Armenian genocide, etc., all are events that are discussed globally and often receive global attention. Should these efforts be marginalized and disenfranchised? Certainly not, especially as most of such events also focus on similar sufferings around the world. The United States Holocaust Museum is one of the biggest advocates to stop the genocidal killing in east Africa. Commemorations of the Irish famine also tell of other present day sufferings around the globe.

Does the suffering of Jews gain more attention than others from the Second World War? Yes. You seem to have a problem with that fact, but I'm not sure why. Nothing compared to the suffering of the Jewish people, caused by a deliberate criminal program orchestrated by the Third Reich. More than one-third of the entire global Jewish population was murdered (some 2/3rds of the European population), with entire communities (such as in Lithuania) being entirely wiped out. Such a terrible percentage was unmatched by any other nation. The Soviet Union lost 30 million people due to the war against Hitler, but even such a catastrophic figure was "only" 15% of the population. Occupied Byelorussia lost some 25% of its, with many of its cities (Minsk, Bialystok) being destroyed by the Nazis, in additition to numerous other reasons (lack of food supply, forced labor, etc.). In forced labor camps under the Nazi regime, the death rate of Jews was multiple times greater than of other captured groups (Poles, French, etc.) besides Soviet POWs.

So why single out the "Holocaust Industry" for criticism? Surely ethnicities should have a right to commemorate their past? It is fine to criticize the leaders and manner of such commemorations and other acts if you have disagreements with their choices and actions (I have seen many solemn memorialsto famines turn into food festivities, sadly), but your points appear to go well beyond that.

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Der grosse Kladderadatsch war da.

-- D. Eckart Der Bolschewismus von Moses bis Lenin, "Er"

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Re: Anne Frank's stepsister and stepmother survived.

Postby Kristina88 » 7 years 2 months ago (Thu May 31, 2012 9:38 am)

Kingfisher wrote:http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2012/05/interview-eva-schloss
Yet another miraculous survivor. Although her mother only married Frank's father after the war, she knew her.
I knew her from 11 to 13 and at that time she was not so special. I didn’t have any inkling that she might write a diary with such meaning. She was a child, interested in clothes and fashion, in hairstyles, in boyfriends.

Hmm. Really?

Her mother was selected for the gas chamber (by Mengele of course), yet miraculously survived (we aren't told why she wasn't gassed). Her father and brother presumably didn't, but there is no suggestion they were gassed; they were selected for labour. and probably died of disease.

She does have a tattoo. Apparently very valuable for educational purposes:
I’m glad to have it because schoolchildren always want to see it. I say to them it’s very important for you to remember because when we are not around in 20 or 30 years, a new generation of youngsters will have to keep the story alive and say, yes, I’ve seen somebody, I’ve seen their tattoo.

It was 54 years before she decided to write about it. Amazing she could remember everything so well. I expect she had a bit of help though. The story is published in the Puffin imprint. Isn't that for kids?

So yet again we find that within a given group we have a few survivors, a few known to have died of typhus, a few not seen again, and the only one selected for gassing wasn't gassed.

Apparently the exhibition that prompted the interview is entitled "We too might move on". Move on? Seems like the last thing they want to do.

They're accepting comments.



Sounds convincing, but I think this story is fake. Nobody could survive although we wish they could... Sad, but we have to be realistic.

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Re: Anne Frank's stepsister and stepmother survived.

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 2 months ago (Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:01 am)

Kladderadatsch wrote:Thanks KF. I suspected that the comments thread might be purged so I saved it yesterday evening. At that point, there were twenty-six comments on the thread. As far as I saw, only one more got added before the purge (or at least before I hit the sack last night), so the backup is fairly complete. Just a pity that I missed that last comment, since it was an excellent overview.

The 27th comment was mine. I took each person involved and what happened to them and pointed out that nothing there in any way supported or implied the mainstream story and no gas chamber was anywhere to be seen. I acknowledged that we should have empathy with those involved, that what happened was indeed awful and could be called a holocaust, but it was not "The Holocaust". I did make a further post commenting on someone's reference to use of "technology" but that went down very quickly with all the rest.

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Re: Anne Frank's stepsister and stepmother survived.

Postby EtienneSC » 4 years 9 months ago (Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:53 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2012/05/interview-eva-schloss
Yet another miraculous survivor. Although her mother only married Frank's father after the war, she knew her.
I knew her from 11 to 13 and at that time she was not so special. I didn’t have any inkling that she might write a diary with such meaning. She was a child, interested in clothes and fashion, in hairstyles, in boyfriends.

Hmm. Really?

Her mother was selected for the gas chamber (by Mengele of course), yet miraculously survived (we aren't told why she wasn't gassed). Her father and brother presumably didn't, but there is no suggestion they were gassed; they were selected for labour. and probably died of disease.

There is a little more info on Eva Schloss in this interview with Markus Lanz on German television (ZDF) from October 2014. My German is not good, but I gather that in this version, she and her mother were not selected for the gas chamber by Mengele. However, her mother was selected later on and then miraculously survived, though only after Eva had told family members that she had been gassed. Her father and brother though, were selected for the gas chamber by Mengele, but also miraculously survived. They were sent to Mauthausen and apparently died at some point later.

(No surprise incidentally, that the New Statesman has deleted all comments on the linked article, hence illustrating our opponents customary confidence in the success of their arguments in an open debate.)

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Re: Anne Frank's stepsister and stepmother survived.

Postby ivam » 4 years 9 months ago (Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:06 am)

comment section has been closed now, free speech woohoo

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Re: Anne Frank's stepsister and stepmother survived.

Postby EtienneSC » 4 years 9 months ago (Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:42 am)

EtienneSC wrote:
Kingfisher wrote:http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2012/05/interview-eva-schloss
Yet another miraculous survivor. Although her mother only married Frank's father after the war, she knew her.
I knew her from 11 to 13 and at that time she was not so special. I didn’t have any inkling that she might write a diary with such meaning. She was a child, interested in clothes and fashion, in hairstyles, in boyfriends.

Hmm. Really?

Her [Eva Schloss's] mother was selected for the gas chamber (by Mengele of course), yet miraculously survived (we aren't told why she wasn't gassed). Her father and brother presumably didn't, but there is no suggestion they were gassed; they were selected for labour. and probably died of disease.

There is a little more info on Eva Schloss in this interview with Markus Lanz on German television (ZDF) from October 2014. My German is not good, but I gather that in this version, she and her mother were not selected for the gas chamber by Mengele. However, her mother was selected later on and then miraculously survived, though only after Eva had told family members that she had been gassed. Her father and brother though, were selected for the gas chamber by Mengele, but also miraculously survived. They were sent to Mauthausen and apparently died at some point later.

(No surprise incidentally, that the New Statesman has deleted all comments on the linked article, hence illustrating our opponents customary confidence in the success of their arguments in an open debate.)


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