The most important Photograph / corpse color

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Atigun
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 4 years 11 months ago (Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:40 pm)

I only posted one source, Nessie. There were more. The fact is that when you search, "symptomatic red or pink skin color poison" or, "...fatal poisoning," carbon monoxide poisoning and cyanide poisoning show up on the very first page of results out of over one million hits. There are lots of different kinds of poisons that present "symptomatic red or pink skin color" but carbon monoxide is first on the list. Most agree that the red/pink color is a poor diagnostic since it doesn't always occur and is most likely to occur in fatalities. From wiki:

One classic sign of carbon monoxide poisoning is more often seen in the dead rather than the living – people have been described as looking red-cheeked and healthy (see below). However, since this "cherry-red" appearance is common only in the deceased, and is unusual in living people, it is not considered a useful diagnostic sign in clinical medicine. In pathological (autopsy) examination the ruddy appearance of carbon monoxide poisoning is notable because unembalmed dead persons are normally bluish and pale, whereas dead carbon-monoxide poisoned persons may simply appear unusually lifelike in coloration.[30][31][32] The colorant effect of carbon monoxide in such postmortem circumstances is thus analogous to its use as a red colorant in the commercial meat-packing industry.

The fact remains, Nessie, that the red/pink skin color from carbon monoxide poisoning is considered symptomatic by many sources especially in cases of fatal poisoning. Your claim that the red/pink skin discoloration is solely the result of post mortem lividity doesn't hold up.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 4 years 11 months ago (Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:47 pm)

Nessie's 20 minutes to 6 hours thing is frankly laughable. 20-30 minutes was close to the ventilation time (according to Nessie's beloved 'witnesses'). And the ventilation time would have been much longer at Krema 1, where there was no ventilation device. Then 2,000 corpses had to be dragged out of the 'gas chamber', put on tiny elevators in small groups, piled in the oven room (until the cremation of the previous corpses was over) and inserted into crematory ovens. The whole process would have taken days.

And the mass graves of the Reinhardt camps don't save Nessie either. The corpses were supposedly dumped into a big hole, not buried as Nessie claims. If Franz Stangl (SS commandant of the Sobibór and Treblinka "extermination camps" during Aktion Reinhardt) was allegedly able to see "Wirth standing [...] next to the pits full of black-blue corpses" at Treblinka (according to Stangl's 'confession'), why was nobody able to see any pits full of amazing lifelike pink-red corpses as they should in the real world?

Nessie spent so much time alleging that nobody could have seen pink-red corpses in the Nazi "extermination camps" that he has completely 'forgotten' to explain why some were able to see corpses of every color of the rainbow sky, except pink-red, at those sites.
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Hannover » 4 years 11 months ago (Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:48 pm)

Atigun wrote:Last time that I looked, Nessie was over at Skeptic, posting replies to me and other CODOH members. He's claiming that challenging the functionality of the Kula columns is a fallacy of ignorance since nobody has built an actual Kula column and tested it with Zyklon B, under Auschwitz conditions. Well, nobody has ever built and tested a Kula column to see if it would work, either. Uh, Nessie, care to post your replies here on the CODOH forum?
Indeed, Nessie knows he can get away with stating absurdities there without the necessity of proof, without the requirement of directly addressing specific challenges to his bizarre arguments.

Remember Nessie is a guy who finds Yankel Wiernik to a be serious & believable "eyewitness".
"eyewitness" Yankel Wiernik at Treblinka

Nessie claims Revisionist engage in "cherry picking" of a few minor statements by a few unstable "witnesses", yet Nessie cannot give valid examples of Revisionists relying upon "cherry picking" of a few minor statements as the basis for the main Revisionists arguments. He was challenged to provide such examples but dodged and fled to that other shady forum.
Hannover @ The use of logical fallacies

Recall that Nessie believes the picture shown here actually depicts human corpses falling from an excavator rather than the scoop of dirt that it obviously is. Hannover @ Nessie's case for Sturdy Colls & Treblinka

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Nessie. » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:35 am)

hermod wrote:Nessie's 20 minutes to 6 hours thing is frankly laughable. 20-30 minutes was close to the ventilation time (according to Nessie's beloved 'witnesses'). And the ventilation time would have been much longer at Krema 1, where there was no ventilation device. Then 2,000 corpses had to be dragged out of the 'gas chamber', put on tiny elevators in small groups, piled in the oven room (until the cremation of the previous corpses was over) and inserted into crematory ovens. The whole process would have taken days.

And the mass graves of the Reinhardt camps don't save Nessie either. The corpses were supposedly dumped into a big hole, not buried as Nessie claims. If Franz Stangl (SS commandant of the Sobibór and Treblinka "extermination camps" during Aktion Reinhardt) was allegedly able to see "Wirth standing [...] next to the pits full of black-blue corpses" at Treblinka (according to Stangl's 'confession'), why was nobody able to see any pits full of amazing lifelike pink-red corpses as they should in the real world?

Nessie spent so much time alleging that nobody could have seen pink-red corpses in the Nazi "extermination camps" that he has completely 'forgotten' to explain why some were able to see corpses of every color of the rainbow sky, except pink-red, at those sites.


You have missed out that moving a body delays the appearance lividity as the blood cannot settle. So moving all of those bodies accounts for the lack of, but not absence of witnesses to pink discolouration.

Decomposing bodies in pits will go black-blue. You need to look at the time line of decomposition.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Hannover » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:12 pm)

Nessie said:
You have missed out that moving a body delays the appearance lividity as the blood cannot settle. So moving all of those bodies accounts for the lack of, but not absence of witnesses to pink discolouration.

Decomposing bodies in pits will go black-blue. You need to look at the time line of decomposition.
Nessie, you seem to be losing track of your arguments.
As I have shown, and you dodged, those bodies could not have been moved as you allege.

Again, you quoted, with my responses:
Hannover wrote:Nessie said:
So according to the evidence the sonderkommandos had at least 20-30 minutes to bury or cremate and in fact it was longer as the bodies were being moved from the chambers to the pits or pyres.
What Nessie wishes is impossible.

This is claimed to be what the alleged 'gas chambers' looked like after an alleged 'gassing'.

Image

It would have been impossible to move this mass of corpses in 20-30 minutes as Nessie claims via a hand operated 4 ft. X 9 ft. lift, in what was a cellar for diseased corpses, to the crematorium above, or to take the alleged corpses to 'pits or pyres' near the alleged 'gas chamber' when the storyline states that another batch of Jews was waiting just outside the alleged 'gas chamber' ... unless all those Jews were blind and impervious to the alleged cyanide that would have still been exiting it's carrier material as the alleged 'gas chamber' doors were opened.

I have made these points before in this thread and elsewhere at this forum, Nessie avoids them.

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:42 pm)

Nessie. wrote:You have missed out that moving a body delays the appearance lividity as the blood cannot settle. So moving all of those bodies accounts for the lack of, but not absence of witnesses to pink discolouration.

Decomposing bodies in pits will go black-blue. You need to look at the time line of decomposition.


Nessie, Nessie, Nessie... :roll:

2,000 bodies couldn't be moved and cremated in 15 ovens within 20 minutes, 6 hours or even 24 hours. As there were no rooms to store the dead bodies after each gassing (because the morgues were allegedly undressing rooms and gas chambers according to the Holocaust narrative), the limiting factor was definitely cremation time*. Even with a quite short cremation time of 1 hour per corpse and no ventilation time at all, 1,910 pink-red corpses (2,000 - (15 X 6)) would have remained in the 'gas chamber' of Krema 2 after 6 hours.

Decomposing corpses? With the alleged gassing rates, the upper corpses had no time to decompose before new corpses were dumped over them. Don't be ridiculous.



* Don't tell me the corpses were moved and piled outdoor. The wartime aerial photographs show they were not.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 4 years 9 months ago (Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:31 pm)

I have been among the "Bad Boys" at rodoh (pages 12 and 13) for repeatidly forgetting to add url tags to url links when I compose my posts. I think my last post, or second or third last post, may have lacked a necessary url tag or two. That or I was too abrasive with Nessie. So I am on an rodoh vacation. That said, I will not surrender to Nessie's nonsense.

Atigun PM'd me this.

There are lots of sites that say that CO poisoning results in red/pink skin discolorations. The caveat is that it's an unreliable diagnostic tool since not all victims display such discoloration. See: http://firstaid.about.com/od/hazardousm ... soning.htm for one site that I picked at random. Even Wiki states that it's symptomatic but an unreliable diagnostic. Nessie claims that the red/pink discoloration occurs only with the onset of livor mortis. That's BS. If only a third of the alleged victims of CO gassing displayed red/pink skin discoloration, that would still amount to 400-500,000 red/pink corpses. At least a few of the so-called eyewitnesses would have remarked on the phenomena if such poisoning actually occurred.

While I appreciate this, I have been playing Nessie's game for a few months, and I think I have started to back him into a few corners. He denies it but his latest claim is that the Treblinka gassings were so fast and acute that COHb levels did not have time to climb high enough to cause sunburnt red to appear in freshly gassed corpses. Naturally, Wiernik's claims about yellow skin and Rajchman's claim about black faces and blue bellies from freshly gassed corpses were just honest mistakes they made when writing their memoirs two years later, but he admitted in "inability" to give detailed explanations for the mistakes. We can understand why people make mistakes in some cases due to bad lighting, bad angles, distances, poor personal eyesight, colourblindess in certain things...but such variables have never been explained by Nessie because he admitted his inability to provide. Nevertheless, he still thinks Rajchman and Wiernik saw gassed corpses because many others in Treblinka claimed to have heard screams coming from a fenced in area that obviously concealed the gas chambers. Hence, Wiernik and Rajchman have thus been rehabilitated in Nessie's view.

I just want codoh to know that nothing has changed and he has been backed into a corner by me to the point that he is defending the indefensible and just trying to excuse it. And the number of ad hocs is almost infinite. I even accused him of making an ad hoc when he tried to imply Jews with shovels were helping dig pits with the excavators. I got him to admit there was nothing in the apparently accurate and detailed narrative about it from any former inmates, but he said it was possible and likely so he would believe it anyway.
https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=52935#p52935

So given my inability to post at rodoh right now and my ignorance on when and if my abilities will be reinstated, here is the lastest response of mine to Nessie. It's a long one because I added older quotes for context and backstory to the arguments/issues at hand. This is the first and last time I will do this. I just want others to see how things have progressed over the last few weeks and how it's basically the same old story with him.

Or logic tells us they never saw gassed bodies because the colour is wrong and also because they lied when they said blood is flammable and helped burn the bodies on the pyre.


You have no proof they were lying.

And where is your proof they made an honest mistake? If you won't accept they were lying and you addmited you couldn't rise to my red text challenge, you have to try another route and offer evidence for it instead of saying, "it was possible" and then walking away pretending you have won. If you can't provide better, more documented explanations that they were lying about seeing gassed corpses, I am within my epistemic rights to hold that it is MORE LIKELY AND MORE PROBABLE they never saw gassed corpses. Read the definitions and try to grasp an understanding of the words 'possible' 'plausible' and 'induction'. Maybe you will see why this tactic of repeating, "you have no proof they were lying" gets you nowhere.

It is not as simple with witnesses to say they were either lying or mistaken.

Then why did you do it?

You need to take account of people's memory and ability to recollect detail.

Which you are presumably doing...IN ORDER TO EXPLAIN THE MISTAKEN FALSE COLOURS.

So you ARE picking the 'mistake' explanation over the lying one. But to be justified in an inductive worldview of possiblities and probabilities, you have to rise to my red text challenge and you failed and also admitted to it with reference to your "inability."

WHY do mistakes happen in witness memories with stress or trauma? According to the study you cited, people can focus on one aspect at the expense of another, the lighting may be bad, they may misread a logo on a shirt because it is wrinkled or partially covered up by a jacket, they may be too far away, or have poor eyesight to differentiate between a six inch blade and an eight inch blade. These are simple and easy explanations that tell us WHY mistakes were made.

THESE ARE EXPLANATIONS THAT EXPLAIN MISTAKES. THEY ARE THE ANSWERS FOR THE WHYS.

All you need to do is provide a PLAUSIBLE SCIENTIFIC explanation as to how to alleged inmates that saw the same gassings reported different skin colours. If you can not provide, then no one is under any obligation to believe you. You keep dodging this and playing dumb, but it is not working anymore. If you deny the enlarged, bolded part above, then you really are too stupid to debate with because you don't understand the scientific/inductive method.


The possibilities you have given are not the complete list of alternatives. If I cannot give you an answer, I will not give you an answer. My inability to answer has no bearing on what the actual answer is.



Thus you failed to explain how and why Wiernik (yellow) and Rajchman (black faces) could screw up so badly only two years later about skin colour when they wrote their memoirs. You are unable to explain the allegedly inexplicable. In other words, the red text applies to this two year gap and you still fail to justify yourself in fully explaining how such a mistake could happen. You refuse to give the hows and whys for the occurence of mistakes. Your lack of specifics, means you have no epistemic right to demand me to change my position. I will not be moved until you can give the hows and whys for mistakes.

You need to take account of people's memory and ability to recollect detail.


I have. I have read your text and I have admitted a possiblity that they made a huge grave error somehow. But that is not proof itself. I am still waiting for you to provide a plausible explanation for their errors in the same vein that other people have provided plausible explanations for errors in other people in other places and times. If you don't have an apple to add to the barrel of apples, that is your problem and you have no business for condemning me for your inability to provide what is required of you to convince me on the other side to join your side.


It is what is underneath the body that prevents lividity forming, since the blood drains down. Berg's photo clearly shows where the skin was pressed against a flat surface and in those parts lividity could not form.

Um, please don't pretend I didn't give a quote saying the bodies were lying around piled up for upwards of three days. Because by then, since pressure was NOT INCREASING to prevent lividity from forming AS TIME WENT ON, then lividity's cherry red should have appeared after three days.

"Of great criminalistic significance are the phenomena of disappearing lividity on pressure and disappearance of lividity after turning. In the early stages, lividity will completely disappear on soft thumb pressure; with an increasing post mortem interval the blanching pressure must increase....until eventually it will not disappear at all"



Oh but down below, you state it is possible this did not happen. You are hinting at yet another possible scneario...Let's wait to get to that...


That you cannot evidence X (amount of people) in Y (sized of space) with Z (amount or percentage in the air of the toxic element) over T (length of exposure) and likelihood of D (death) means you have nothing to back up your hypothesis.

If we then check all the medical texts, many of which cover Z>70%, or severe poisoning, none list obvious skin discolouration as a sign/symptom/health effect.

And,
First you say witnesses died too fast and too acute to turn red since nobody testified to freshly gassed corpses being red. MEANING THEIR COHB WASN'T HIGH ENOUGH TO CAUSE THE SKIN TO TURN RED! Clearly by logical implication of that statement of yours, the COppm in the body upon one dying in a quick acute way will not be automatically linked to a 60-70% cohb level which is associated with death.

I have not said what you have claimed, will you stop creating strawmen?

Then why would you say that with the acute poisoning in the Treblinka gas chambers, there was no colour and hence Fritz Burg is in grave error and Wiernik and Rajchman made mistakes? THAT IS/HAS BEEN YOUR ARGUMENT about the intensity of CO poisoning over a short period of time and the LACK OF RED.

From August.
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50628#p50628
I have repeatedly used medical sources on acute or severe poisoning that if left untreated will kill.
[...]
They are for "Symptoms for acute CO poisoning", "High-level poisoning", "severe carbon monoxide poisoning" and all say cherry red is rare, unusual, 2-3%. Then one has "The symptoms of CO poisoning in order of increasing severity include the following:.....death". Note the last one is death and no mention of discolouration or cherry red. [..]
It is you and others who have failed to read the sources which are all about severe or acute which will kill and not chronic CO poisoning.


Clearly you do believe the death was too quick, or acute for red skin to appear. Red skin only appears with high enough levels of COHb in fresh corpses but the CO ppm in acute poisoning was high enough to kill and not leave red skin in your view. meaning cohb wasn't high enough. So it is not a strawman for me to simply re-state your own argument to you that dates from August. Hence, since that is your argument which dates from an August posting, then I am mystified as to why you would say what you did...

They had high enough levels of COHb to kill them. So what does the evidence say about death?

-Nessie Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:25 pm

Clearly in acute cases as you say in August, they do not have high enough COHb to kill them. Hence you are contradicting your argument about the lack of red in freshly gassed corpses from August. So I am not wrong for pointing that out. Let's try an exercise in symbolic logic.

1. If A then B.
2. Not A.
3. Therefore, not B.

If COHb levels are anywhere from 30% or higher, red skin will appear
COHb levels did not reach 30%
Therefore red skin will not appear.

If you state that there was enough CO ppm to kill someone before red could appear, and you admit red can only appear if COHb is high enough, then you can't turn around and say well they clearly had enough COHb to kill them, but yet still no red skin was mentioned. It is simple deductive logic.

I will state again in simple language that no medical expert denies. the MAIN AND PRIMARY THING THAT KILLS, IS THE CO PPM LEVELS. The COHb is secondary. They are a reaction to the CO poisoning. You are typing like the COHb levels are what killed them...
They had high enough levels of COHb to kill them.

...when that is just plain wrong. Furthermore, You claimed acute CO poisonings with high enough COppm will not lead to red corpses. This is your own argument. And since red can only happen from high enough COHb levels, that means the COHb levels were not high like at 70% with acute poisonings in your narrative. This is basic deductive logic you either do not comprehend or are pretending to ignore. Again, check your own August post I quoted.

So you are flip flopping in an attempt to save face. And it just failed miserably.

I have shown that the medical evidence tells us that there is no point where the majority of people will show obvious skin discolouration, no matter the level of COHb. That is including the >70% needed to kill quickly.

Again, you are not only misunderstanding your own sources as I just demonstrated, but you are in effect failing to understand what the following really means and how it should be interpreted properly.

Carboxyhemoglobin: 10%
Frontal Headache
Carboxyhemoglobin: 20%
Throbbing Headache
Dyspnea on exertion
Carboxyhemoglobin: 30%
Impaired judgment
Nausea or Vomiting
Dizziness
Visual disturbance
Fatigue
Carboxyhemoglobin: 40%
Confusion
Syncope
Carboxyhemoglobin: 50%
Coma
Seizures
Carboxyhemoglobin: 60%
Hypotension
Respiratory failure
Carboxyhemoglobin: 70%
Death

http://www.fpnotebook.com/mobile/ER/Toxin/CrbnMnxdPsng.htm

Oh my god. Nothing about red skin. Does that mean red skin never occurs at certain COHb levels? WRONG!

/SIGNS AND SYMPTOMS/ Bullae occur, especially over pressure areas, and alopecia and sweat gland necrosis are reported rarely. The appearance of bullae appears to be related to the severity of toxicity. Cherry red skin (lips, mucous membranes) is characteristic of nonsurvivors, because the high carboxyhemoglobin levels required to produce this appearance usually are not compatible with life. Carboxyhemoglobin levels can rise after death because of the continuing extraction of oxyhemoglobin. Hence, cherry red skin is an autopsy finding and uncommon in live patients.
[Ellenhorn, M.J. and D.G. Barceloux. Medical Toxicology - Diagnosis and Treatment of Human Poisoning. New York, NY: Elsevier Science Publishing Co., Inc. 1988., p. 825] **PEER REVIEWED**

http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@[email protected]+903

And, from Mattogno's book on Chelmno.

another medical source proffered by Provan explains (2004, pp. 160-162):

“At autopsy the most striking appearance of the body is the color of the skin, especially in areas of post-mortem hypostasis. The classical 'cherry-pink' color of carboxy-hemoglobin is usually evident if the saturation of the blood exceeds about 30%. Below this, familiarity and good lighting are needed and below 20%, no coloration is visible.”

So the color “cherry pink” usually manifests itself when the carboxy-hemoglobin level in the blood “exceeds 30%.”


Next...

Go back through it all and show me a case where it took 45 minutes to die from CO poisoning for someone or a group of people where their COHb levels were checked. Then we can check that against Rajchman's tale before we believe that he saw gassed corpses or discard the claim he saw gassed corpses. Oh wait. We already can because he said the wrong colour and he falsely claimed blood is/was flammable in Treblinka. :roll:



I have been hoping you can evidence that claim. Stop trying to shift your burden of proof back onto me.

Um, you're the one arguing that miners sport red skin over long chronic exposure and that acutely gassed people in Treblinka sport no red skin. Why? Because as the science explains, which you apparently forgot/misinterpreted, the deadly CO ppm levels climbed too high too fast and killed them before red skin could appear (COHb levels high enough are what causes red skin). So since Rajchman says 45 minutes are what it took, we would have to find the study I stated is required. Since your studies or your interpreations aren't cutting it, we need to find a Treblinka scneairo of 45 minutes to die from CO poisoning. Then we will know how to classify it as acute or chronic and also what the COHb levels are and thus if red had a chance of apperance. ONCE WE HAVE A PARALLEL STUDY, we can check Rajchman's story against the study. Then we can see if red appears or black appears on the skin. Hahahahahahaha.

If you want to discuss COHb at 30%, fine. How common is it? How obvious is it? Will the person exposed to such a level die? If so, how long will it take before they die?

Why are you asking me? I thought your sources had all the answers and therefore you could quote them on demand. Oh wait nevermind. You already have the problem of contradicting your August argument as shown above.

Will the person exposed to such a level die?

As shown above, nobody is "exposed" to COHb levels like they are exposed to COppm per say. COHb is BYPRODUCT or REACTION in the body to the introduction of the foreign element that is CO poisoning with a given amount of COppm in the body. So this is a stupid question for obvious reasons already stated in connection to you twisting your August argument around.

Possibly. It could still mean that for days bodies were piled up, but there was a turn over of bodies in the piles and no one body was left lying and starting to decompose over days.

For this to be possible, the last burial pit, once at 100% capacity, the nazis only then started using the excavators to make new pits. That was YOUR stipulation remember?

I said that the text as quoted above suggests pits were not dug until after the the existing ones had filled.

-Nessie. Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:21 pm


And what was that quote again?

Eberl's poor organizational skills soon caused the operation of Treblinka to turn disastrous. At the very beginning, the corpses were buried in mass graves, but within days the burial pits were overflowing with bodies, and corpses were instead piled up in camp II because the workers lacked sufficient time to bury them. At the same time, the gas chambers continually broke down. Therefore, the SS resorted to shooting incoming Jews in the arrival area of the camp and piling bodies throughout the camp.[11]

It doesn't say they were piled up all in the pits. It says they were piled up in camp II. So there is reason to think due to PITS OVERFLOWING, it would have been useless to stack bodies again and again, higher and higher in the first pits that are overflowing. You can't stack them forever in the original pits. Hence, some bodies were strewn about away from the pits and new piles were made.

And let's have that other quote again I furnished for good measure that I brought up not to necessarily reference corpse colour, but to talk about piled bodies from Mattogno, Graf and Kues in "The 'Extermination Camps' of Aktion Reinhardt." pdf version.

Suchomel’s description conforms to the worst stereotypes of historical- judiciary propaganda, with additions of fanciful details that makes his “testimony” even more tenuous. Suchomel spoke of mass graves that were six to seven meters deep and crammed with bodies, but strangely enough he saw this “just once, the first day [une seule fois, le premier jour].”2523 According to him, a single pit contained 80,000 bodies! 2524 As for the “chaos” prevailing during the camp’s initial period of operations, he stated:2525

“Il arrivait toujours plus de gens, toujours plus qu’on n’avait pas les moyens de tuer. Ces Messieurs voulaient vider le ghetto de Varsovie au plus vite. Les chambres à gaz avaient une trop faible capacité. Les petites chambres à gaz. Les Juifs devaient attendre leur tour un jour, deux jours, trois jours”

“More people kept coming, always more, whom we hadn’t the facilities to kill. The brass was in a rush to clean out the Warsaw ghetto. The gas chambers couldn’t handle the load. The small gas chambers. The Jews had to wait their turn for a day, two days, three days.”


This also applied to the corpses: “the corpses piled up around the gas chambers and stayed there for days [les corps s’amoncelaient autour des chambres à gas et y demeuraient pendant des jours].”2526 This is in contrast not only to the testimonies left by “survivors,” starting with Wiernik – at Lanzmann’s assertion that Treblinka had a daily extermination capacity of 18,000 Jews, Suchomel replies that this figure is exaggerated, giving instead as the real capacity “from twelve to fifteen thousand [de douze à quinze mille].”2527

2523 C. Lanzmann, Shoah, op. cit., p. 46.
2524 Treblinka-Prozess – Urteil LG Düsseldorf vom 3.9.1965, 8 I Ks 2/64, in: http://www.holocausthistory.org/german-trials/treblinka-urteil.shtml
2525 C. Lanzmann, Shoah, op. cit., p. 46.
2526 Ibid., p. 47.
2527 Ibid., p. 96.

pages 1127-1128 pdf version




So let's try and figure out what the dimensions of these new pits would have been. From Thomas Kues

Rajchman claims to have worked for a considerable time at the mass graves. In the following passage, he presents his estimate of the dimensions of those grave pits:

”About ten of them [the Jewish working prisoners] are standing in the pit, placing the dead head by feet, so as to fit as many corpses into the pit as possible. Another group covered each layer with sand, before the next layer of corpses was placed on top of it. The mass graves were dug by an excavator (later there were three of them). They were huge, approximately fifty meters long, thirty meters wide and several stories deep – according to my estimate: four.” (p. 91)


Or
Regarding the dimensions of the graves we will further note that Rajchman is contradicted on this point by another witness, Eliahu Rosenberg 28, who like Rajchman claims to have worked in Camp 2. Rosenberg claimed in a deposition from 1947 that the graves measured 120 x 15 x 6 m, i.e. 10,800 cubic meters.

How many of these immense mass graves were there? Rajchman mentions in a passage concerning the emptying and the cleaning-up of the mass graves in June 1943:
”Also the cleaning of the pits is progressing at a quicker pace. Ten of them are already emptied. The eleventh and last is one of the four large ones, containing approximately a quarter of a million corpses.” (p. 128)

Thus there were in total eleven mass graves, of which four were larger than the others. Do the dimensions given on page 91 refer to the smaller or the larger ones? This is not clearly stated in the text, but considering the capacity ascribed to the larger pits, it seems reasonable that said dimensions refer to the smaller ones. For the sake of argument, however, we will assume the same dimensions for all the grave pits.

So how long would it take to make a pit with Rajchman's dimensions of approximately fifty meters long, thirty meters wide and several stories deep – according to my estimate: four.” Then we have to figure out at what percentage of these new pits' completion, would the nazis have known to properly multitask to start sending the bodies through the dental/corpse handling teams while digging had already been going on...

Body removal team. - a few dozen men
Body transport (to dentists) team - 100 men
Dentists - 30 men
Burial detail team - several dozen men


...so that by the time the bodies got to the pits, there would have been no backup or bottleneck of corpses being piled up at the new pits with nowhere to put them. Why such a specification? Because no witness mentions a backlog of piled corpses at new pits waiting to be put in. Arguing that it may have happened but nobody mentioned it would be an ad hoc Nessie and would be adding things into the narrative that is not there without any kind of evidential justification.

Once all this is answered, then your 'maybe' or 'possiblity' about corpse turnover of key corpses being too fast for red lividity to appear, even when pressure did not increase with time which would stall lividity's appearance, can be answered in a definite way.

"Of great criminalistic significance are the phenomena of disappearing lividity on pressure and disappearance of lividity after turning. In the early stages, lividity will completely disappear on soft thumb pressure; with an increasing post mortem interval the blanching pressure must increase....until eventually it will not disappear at all"


Or Nessie do you wish to argue that not only did the nazis multitask in the above way as stated, but before they began to do so, they kept piling freshly gassed corpses upon freshly gassed corpses which created pressure upon older corpses on the middle or bottoms of these piles not able to be put in pits. And that when they had freshly gassed corpses on the tops of piles, those would have new corpses put on them and then those ones previously on top of the pile, were not NOT. Hence the clock for lividity appearance would be either reset or severely set back?

This would be all well and good Nessie if you wanted to argue like that. however this ignores the part of the quote I furnished earlier that said the chambers broke down.
So there wasn't an assembly line of gassing. Which means there wasn't a constant stream of bodies to pile on other bodies which used to be on the tops of piles, thus resetting the clock for lividity's appeareance. Not only that, but incoming transports of Jews who were allegedly shot and piled up, who is to say they weren't the first ones put into new pits after the dental/corpse handling teams got through with them? Meaning the gassed and piled bodies were not the first to go into the pit and to be handled and moved by the body detail teams. Meaning that they would have been outside and piled up longer and in fact had a longer window for cherry red lividity to appear.

All in all, combined with broken chambers and bodies piled for days, you may not in fact be able to convincingly argue with any kind of evidence for what I just put in italicized text above. Which would mean this "possiblity" you brought up, would have little, if any, believable persuasion behind it.


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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 4 years 9 months ago (Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:38 pm)

Has Nessie Fallacy - so much counting on the "mistake" loophole - already thought that his precious 'witnesses' maybe made a mistake when they called shower rooms and morgues "gas chambers"? But I suppose that the "mistake" thing isn't valid in that direction.

What would people tell a man claiming he's an astronaut and the sky is blue on the moon? "This poor man made a little mistake because of his traumatic life as an astronaut"? Or "no atmosphere, no oxygen, no blue sky; you're crook who never set foot on the moon"? :twisted:

About gassing time, from Fritz Berg's website:
An Extraordinary Suicide with Carbon Monoxide

[...]

An extraordinary case of suicide with gasoline engine exhaust reveals that even with gasoline engine exhaust–death is far from quick. But how quick? A British essay by Flanagan et al examines the case of a 36-year old man in good physical health who had a taperecorder running during his suicide. The taperecording provided that rarest kind of information about any automotive suicide–a timeline. The last sounds recorded occurred twenty minutes after the victim turned his car's gasoline engine on. A reconstruction of the suicide showed that the CO levels had increased steadily over that period reaching nearly 5% before the victim ceased making any sounds. Death came even later. .

If the engine had been a diesel running under a heavy load, the maximum CO concentration would have been only 0.5% (only 1/10th the concentration of the Flanagan case). If the engine had been a diesel running only at idle–which is the most likely comparable running condition–the CO concentration would have been less than 0.1% (only 1/50th of the Flanagan case). What it all means is that death from diesel exhaust would have taken far, far longer than the 32 minutes claimed by KURT GERSTEIN and every other self-proclaimed “eyewitness” to such alleged diesel gassings. All of those “eyewitnesses” are liars. Nearly 2 million Jews had supposedly been murdered at Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor and in the so-called “gas vans” with diesel exhaust. The evidence shows that those alleged gassings never happened because they were technically impossible.

In another case, this time in Japan, a 27-year old man committed suicide with gasoline engine exhaust. Most unusual was the fact that the victim made handwritten notes as the exhaust entered the vehicle. His last entry was made 17 minutes after the gas began entering. In another words, when the time until death is known, it becomes obvious that death with carbon monoxide is quite slow even when the CO levels are vastly greater than one would ever have in diesel exhaust.

http://www.nazigassings.com/
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 4 years 9 months ago (Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:10 pm)

For months, I have been going along with Nessie saying that maybe Jews didn't turn red because the gassing was too acute in Treblinka; thus the infiltration of the body of COppm was too large and fast that the byproduct, or reaction to it, the rising of COHb, didn't rise high enough in time to turn them red.

Well Nessie just obliterated all that and said, well since all his cited medical sources which are summaries that are allegedly ALL ENCOMPASSING OF ACUTE AND CHRONIC DEATHS, state that COHb levels of 70% lead to death, then the Jews in Treblinka gas chambers who were in there for upwards of 45 minutes (Chil Rajchman), must have had 70% COHb since they died. But they still didn't turn red he says since it was too acute (fast) and no one testified to it. So according to him, someone who takes hours do die instead of minutes, but still has the same high level of COHb (70%) will turn red simply because it took longer for the CO ppm to climb high enough to finally kill them. Does anyone buy this? Is that how the body works? I always thought acute poisonings, if they didn't have red skin, didn't have a significant COHb level.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 4 years 9 months ago (Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:30 pm)

At least that was the devil's advocate route I was trying to take for a bit on rodoh. 8)

But as one can see on page 74 now of rodoh, I went back a few pages and found where Nessie FLAT OUT IGNORED explanations and sources from Henry and been-there around pages 49-54. Then I came in on 55 to talk about cherry red lividity which differs from the sunburnt red tone that is caused by high COHb, and he lept at the chance to "get away" from been-there so to speak. But on page 74 now of rodoh, I have reminded Nessie with all those times he dodged. Quite hilarious to see him make the same stupid arguments 20 pages later that been-there and Henry already explained. My posts on 74 is more like a trip down horrible memory lane for Nessie.
http://www.rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.p ... &start=730

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 4 years 9 months ago (Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:28 pm)

Werd wrote:Is that how the body works?


No, it isn't. A blood full of carboxyhemoglobin travels at the same speed as a "normal" blood. Heart pumps the entire volume of an average person's blood (5 liters) every minute at rest, and probably much more with Jews panicked by fumes entering the room where they had been crowded by brutal guards and their mean dogs.

Cardiac Output

Cardiac output is the volume of blood pumped by the heart per minute (mL blood/min). Cardiac output is a function of heart rate and stroke volume. The heart rate is simply the number of heart beats per minute. The stroke volume is the volume of blood, in milliliters (mL), pumped out of the heart with each beat. Increasing either heart rate or stroke volume increases cardiac output.

Cardiac Output in mL/min = heart rate (beats/min) X stroke volume (mL/beat)

An average person has a resting heart rate of 70 beats/minute and a resting stroke volume of 70 mL/beat. The cardiac output for this person at rest is:

Cardiac Output = 70 (beats/min) X 70 (mL/beat) = 4900 mL/minute.

The total volume of blood in the circulatory system of an average person is about 5 liters (5000 mL). According to our calculations, the entire volume of blood within the circulatory sytem is pumped by the heart each minute (at rest). During vigorous exercise, the cardiac output can increase up to 7 fold (35 liters/minute).

http://www.biosbcc.net/doohan/sample/ht ... MAPhtm.htm
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 4 years 9 months ago (Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:56 am)

Here's a source. Don't ask me why that 3 or 4 or 5 is there. They just are.
3
Arsenic ( As )
It is a by-product of both ferrous and non-ferrous smelting.
Arsine (AsH3) is a gas - the most toxic form of arsenic. Arsenic is general protoplasmic poison. Uses: alloys, insecticides, fungicides, rodenticides, pigments, decolorizer in glass and paper-making.
Acute effects: severe respiratory irritation, nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, abdominal pain, hemolysis, oliguria , shock. Chronic effects: gastrointestinal symptoms, encephalopathy, peripheral neuropathy-mainly sensory, hyperkeratosis and hyperpigmentation, liver damage, carcinogenic changes in skin and lungs.
Arsenic levels in urine, hair and nails may be useful in the detection : of systemic absorption of arsenic.
Therapy: specific chelator BAL i.m., non-specific for the skin and respiratory disturbances.
Professional poisoning of other inorganic chemicals as Cadmium (Cd), Chromium (Cr), Manganese (Mn), Vanadium (V), Phosphorus (P) - are rare.

4
B. CHEMICAL ASPHYXIANTS
The mechanism by which chemical asphyxiants cause their toxic effects is producing tissue hypoxia.
Carbon monoxide (CO)
Uses: by-product of mining, smelting, petrochemical processes and many processes involving combustion.
Metabolism: the mechanism by which CO causes its toxic effect is producing tissue hypoxia.
CO reversibly combines with haemoglobin to produce carboxyhaemoglobin (COHb).
CO also binds to muscle myoglobin and to intracellular cytochrome oxidases.
Acute CO poisoning: typically, individuals with COHb levels below 1% are asymptomatic, and even COHb levels between 10 to 30% produce effects that are sometimes nondescriptive-headache, faitness, nausea and vomiting. Increased respiratory rate. Increased heart rate.
COHb 30-40% : as above, plus dimness of vision, decreased blood preassure, muscular incoordination, cherry-red skin discoloration.

5
COHb 40-60% : as above, plus generalized weakness, mental confusion.
COHb 60% and higher: coma, intermittent convulsions, depressed heart action and respiratory rate, and possibly death.
COHb over 90% : death within a few minutes.

Chronic CO poisoning: headache, organic brain damage if asphyxiation was prolonged.
Biological monitoring: COHb levels.
Treatment: remove from exposure and give pure or hyperbaric oxygen. Cerebral edema may result from central hypoxia. Diuretics and glucocorticoids maybe appropriate to prevent its appearance or reduce its severity.
Hydrogen cyanide (HCN )
Hydrogen cyanide and its derivates are used in electroplating, metallurgy, and extraction of gold and silver metals from ores, production of synthetic fibers and plastics, and as a fumigand and fertilizer.
Metabolism: inhibits the action of cytochrome oxidase, thus disrupting oxygenation at the tissue cell level.
Acute poisoning: can occur from inhalation and also absorption through the skin, with rapid onset of headache, hypopnoea, tachykardia, hypotension, convulsion and death. The rapidity of the onset of symptoms necessitatates the treatment statim. Chronic poisoning: none.
Biological monitoring: blood cyanide concentration. Treatment: remove contaminated clothing and wash the skin. Administer amylnitrite inhalation, 3% sodium nitrite i.v., and 25% sodium thiosulphate solution i.v. Dicobalt EDTA i.v. is advocated for the unconscious pacient with a definitive history of cyanide exposure, dispatch the pacient immediately to hospital.
Hydrogen sulphide (HIS)
Metabolism: it inhibits cytochrome oxidase (cf HCN) and causes increase in sulphmethaemoglobin. Acute poisoning: lacrimation, photophobia and mucous membrane irritation in low concentration. In high concentration pneumonitis, paralysis of the respiratory centre can cause sudden unconsciousness. Chronic poisoning : keratitis, skin vesicles. Treatment: removal from exposure, administer oxygen and amyl or sodium nitrite. Other therapy is symptomatic.

http://is.muni.cz/el/1411/jaro2011/VLVL9X66c/um/Industrial_toxicology.txt

I guess that would make this study of mine better than the ones Nessie cites. Here's another.

Image
Source.

Red skin is not under the symptoms in this particular TABLE here because it is already mentioned in the pargraph preceding the TABLE.

How about another one?

Clinical findings

Acute symptoms occur at 20% concentration (of CO in blood); severe symptoms at 30%; headache and confusion at 40–50%; unconciousness and seizures at 60–70%; ≥60% can be fatal. The skin of someone dying from carbon monoxide, especially in dependent areas of hypostasis, is classically described as having a cherry-pink colour, which is not seen below 30%.

Source: Segen's Medical Dictionary. © 2012 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.

Furthermore,

Nessie, if you want to argue that someone who takes hours to die and has a COHb level of 70% is put up against someone who takes 45 minutes (Rajchman) to die and thus has a level of 70% COHb...because that is what you said an acutely poisoned person would have...
That is including the >70% needed to kill quickly.

-Nessie. Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:32 pm

...if you want to argue with all this that the acutely poisoned person who still has 70%COHb will NOT turn red, then prove that is how the human body works. Quote me a medical article that says
70% COHb will turn a body red in chronic poisoning, but the same level, EVEN IF REACHED IN ACUTE POISONING, will not turn a body red. Prove to me that the human body actually gives a crap over whether or not the CO poisoning is acute or chronic if the COHb level is 70%.

Either the body works one of two ways.:

1. The body goesn't give a crap if the poisoning is acute over minutes or chronic over hours and will produce red skin when the COHb level is high, because it WILL end up high as Nessie stated on Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:32 pm.

Or

2. it does give a crap and will only produce red skin with high COHb over chronic poisoning.

If anyone wants to argue #1, then the game is over and freshly gassed Jews who died in 45 minutes (Rajchman's time in Treblinka) should have shown red skin. Nessie just stated that 70% COHb is needed to DIE QUICKLY. I.E. Acutely. So it seems like he has picked #1. In which case, he loses and there are a bunch of Treblinka liars regarding seeing gassed corpses. Not surprising as two of them that we know about can't even get the colour correct! They were in the camp as labourers probably and even saw some excessive nazi shootings, but no corpses from gas chambers!

If anyone wants to argue #2, they are claiming someone can die acutely without showing red. In which case, acute deaths mean low COHb if red is not showing. However, Nessie has argued this as well because it doesn't take long enough for red to show in acute gassings he says. But to claim that acute poisoning can result in low COHb, contradicts his claim that 70%COHb is needed for even quick acute deaths. And as my sources show, half the COHb needed for death is all that is required for red skin to have a chance to start appearing.

So Nessie has flip flopped in a desperate attempt to not lose the debate. But flip flopping itself proves he has lost. That's why Nessie is a stupid troll who doesn't listen, and that is why I am glad CODOH booted him.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Moderator » 4 years 9 months ago (Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:21 am)

Werd:
That's why Nessie is a stupid troll who doesn't listen, and that is why I am glad CODOH booted him.
Nessie, after numerous requests to comply, was "booted" for dodging on topic questions put to him, dodging requests for specifics.
It's all stated in our basic guidelines which every registrant agrees to upon registering. Thanks.
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 4 years 8 months ago (Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:12 pm)

Moderator wrote:Werd:
That's why Nessie is a stupid troll who doesn't listen, and that is why I am glad CODOH booted him.
Nessie, after numerous requests to comply, was "booted" for dodging on topic questions put to him, dodging requests for specifics.
It's all stated in our basic guidelines which every registrant agrees to upon registering. Thanks.
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Isn't this what "a stupid troll who doesn't listen" means? :wink:
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 4 years 8 months ago (Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:20 am)

Apparently, Nessie corrected me on a misunderstanding. I should not be using acute as synonymous with a short amount of time to die and chornic as synonymous with a long amount of time to die. That is because even if someone takes a long time to die from too much COppm and COHb, they are still jumping out of chronic into acute as per this diagram.
Image
One group started from 0% COppm and 0%COHb and got to fatal/acute levels of COppm and COHb in 45 minutes. - Treblinka Jews.

The other group started from 0% COppm and 0%COHb and got to fatal/acute levels of COppm and COHb in 24 hours. - miners trapped in a mine.

They both made the climb from 0 to 10 (math analogy), or from the feet to the head in the diagram, but one just did it faster than the other. And in some cases the miners had red skin from too much COHb, and they lived. They were as acute as the Jews. So if red skin showed up in some of the miners who were acute and near death but lived, shouldn't red skin show up in acute Jews who are dead too? No says Nessie. Because the body gets hit with too much COppm too fast and even though the COHb rises in 45 minutes to fatal levels along with the COppm, it apparently still doesn't have time to turn the body red. However, carboxyhemoglobin levels can rise after death because of the continuing extraction of oxyhemoglobin. So it seems to me that time is not the issue, but levels. Nessie still has not after 82 rodoh pages given a medical reason why the body should care how long it takes to get to those levels of high COppm and COHb. Not one textbook citation. The ironic thing is that all the sources he quotes that mention red skin from high COHb after death (he claims it is rare whereas I do not and hence our dispute), say nothing about time. They make no bones about any differences of time it takes between individual cases to climb from 0 to 10 in that diagram. And yet he does. :lol:


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