Why Free Speech Doesn't Apply To Holocaust / French attack

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phdnm
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Re: Why Free Speech Doesn't Apply To Holocaust / French atta

Postby phdnm » 4 years 9 months ago (Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:44 am)

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Be Charlie and Shut up!


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I am subdued/submissive

Freedom of speech

Here!

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Re: Why Free Speech Doesn't Apply To Holocaust / French atta

Postby Hektor » 4 years 9 months ago (Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:30 am)

I love the Charlie Hebdo / Der Stuermer comparison by Norman Finkelstein. Quite got a point there. Some may just be more equal.

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Re: Why Free Speech Doesn't Apply To Holocaust / French atta

Postby Mortimer » 4 years 9 months ago (Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:27 am)

I am surprised no one has mentioned the Tales of the Holohoax case where 2 men were imprisoned in democratic Britain for distributing a comic book which mocked the holocaust - http://revisionistreview.blogspot.co.uk ... anity.html
There are 2 sides to every story - always listen or read both points of view and make up your own mind. Don't let others do your thinking for you.

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Re: Why Free Speech Doesn't Apply To Holocaust / French atta

Postby Hannover » 4 years 9 months ago (Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:58 am)

Mortimer wrote:I am surprised no one has mentioned the Tales of the Holohoax case where 2 men were imprisoned in democratic Britain for distributing a comic book which mocked the holocaust - http://revisionistreview.blogspot.co.uk ... anity.html
Wake up, Mort. You really should use our search function. I get 13 current matches for Simon Sheppard, 6 matches for Stephen Whittle.
ex.: The Heretical Two
and then your post here:
Satirical Comic Book Tales of the Holohoax Online

Of course their tragic incarceration occurred years before the recent Paris event, which is the thrust of this thread.

Thanks, Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Why Free Speech Doesn't Apply To Holocaust / French atta

Postby Kingfisher » 4 years 9 months ago (Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:08 pm)

I think mortimer means that it hasn't been mentioned in this context,to which it is very relevant.

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Re: Why Free Speech Doesn't Apply To Holocaust / French atta

Postby Kladderadatsch » 4 years 9 months ago (Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:36 pm)

Mortimer wrote:I am surprised no one has mentioned the Tales of the Holohoax case where 2 men were imprisoned in democratic Britain for distributing a comic book which mocked the holocaust - http://revisionistreview.blogspot.co.uk ... anity.html


Image

Simon Sheppard (l) and Stephen Whittle (r)

You're right, Mortimer, Simon and Stephen deserve recognition here too. Even if most CODOH regulars know the story, people looking on and lurking may not. Hoffman's article is a good introduction, as is his 2010 article on the subject: http://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2 ... -anti.html.

He's also written more on the topic since the article you linked to from 8 January, a series of important posts worth looking into:

http://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2 ... arlie.html
http://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2 ... rs-of.html
http://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2 ... o-ban.html
http://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2 ... links.html

(In the second post listed, Hoffman even provides the "judgment" from the Sheppard/Whittle case, for readers with strong stomachs for legalistic hypocrisy.)

And then there's this gem from the third:

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:lol: :lol: :lol:

Puts my little effort to shame. But here it is anyway:

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One more for the list.


Edit: http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres9/TalesV2.pdf (The corpus delicti itself, lol.)
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Re: Why Free Speech Doesn't Apply To Holocaust / French atta

Postby Hannover » 4 years 9 months ago (Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:42 pm)

You're right, Mortimer, Simon and Stephen deserve recognition here too. Even if most CODOH regulars know the story, people looking on and lurking may not.
Ok then, maybe we can compile the entire list here.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Why Free Speech Doesn't Apply To Holocaust / French atta

Postby Dresden » 4 years 9 months ago (Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:36 pm)

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I am Francois Duprat; I was assassinated and my wife had her legs blown off because I published "Did Six Million Really Die" in French.
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Why Free Speech Doesn't Apply To Holocaust / French atta

Postby hermod » 4 years 9 months ago (Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:24 am)

Around 20 people recently sent to jail (penal sentences from 3 months to 4 years of imprisonment, so far), and more to come, for "advocacy of terrorism" in France.

http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/charlie- ... tions.html (news article in French)

I'm afraid Dieudonné won't escape the maximum sentence (7 years in jail) for his "Charlie Coulibaly" joke.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Why Free Speech Doesn't Apply To Holocaust / French atta

Postby Dresden » 4 years 9 months ago (Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:46 am)

hermod said:

"Around 20 people recently sent to jail (penal sentences from 3 months to 4 years of imprisonment, so far), and more to come, for "advocacy of terrorism" in France.

http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/charlie- ... tions.html (news article in French)

I'm afraid Dieudonné won't escape the maximum sentence (7 years in jail) for his "Charlie Coulibaly" joke"


Welcome to the Dark Age as it darkens by the day!

The Psychopaths occupy ALL positions of authoriy and influence in every country of the Western world.....and more!
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Why Free Speech Doesn't Apply To Holocaust / French atta

Postby phdnm » 4 years 9 months ago (Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:26 pm)

Steve F wrote:
Welcome to the Dark Age as it darkens by the day!

The Psychopaths occupy ALL positions of authoriy and influence in every country of the Western world.....and more!


Manuel is watching YOU!


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Re: Why Free Speech Doesn't Apply To Holocaust / French atta

Postby Mortimer » 4 years 9 months ago (Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:34 pm)

Hannover wrote:
Mortimer wrote:I am surprised no one has mentioned the Tales of the Holohoax case where 2 men were imprisoned in democratic Britain for distributing a comic book which mocked the holocaust - http://revisionistreview.blogspot.co.uk ... anity.html
Wake up, Mort. You really should use our search function. I get 13 current matches for Simon Sheppard, 6 matches for Stephen Whittle.
ex.: The Heretical Two
and then your post here:
Satirical Comic Book Tales of the Holohoax Online

Of course their tragic incarceration occurred years before the recent Paris event, which is the thrust of this thread.

Thanks, Hannover

Yes, I know there are previous posts on the Heretical 2/Tales of the Holohoax but I mentioned it because new members and others who do not know about this case should be made aware of it. It is relevant to the Charlie Hebdo incident because the media is all about freedom of expression for their cartoonists but at the same time remains silent over this issue.
There are 2 sides to every story - always listen or read both points of view and make up your own mind. Don't let others do your thinking for you.

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Re: Why Free Speech Doesn't Apply To Holocaust / French atta

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 4 years 9 months ago (Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:51 pm)

In Australia the Press Council has recently ruled on a cartoon that offended the wrong people:

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... cartoon in the Sydney Morning Herald on 26 July 2014. It was associated with an opinion piece on the conflict in Gaza.


Conclusions

The Council emphasises that cartoons are subject to its Standards of Practice. The application of those Standards however, takes account of the fact that readers can reasonably be expected to recognise that cartoons commonly use exaggeration and caricature to a considerable degree and therefore should be interpreted by them with this in mind.

In this instance, the cartoon's linkage between the Jewish faith and the Israeli rocket attacks on Gaza was reasonably likely to cause great offence to many readers. A linkage with Israeli nationality might have been justifiable in the public interest, despite being likely to cause offence. But the same cannot be said of the implied linkage with the Jewish faith that arose from inclusion of the kippah and the Star of David. Accordingly the Council's Standards of Practice were breached on the ground of causing greater offence to readers' sensibilities than was justifiable in the public interest.

http://www.presscouncil.org.au/document-search/adj-1634/


So the PC claims that the Star and David and the kippah made the cartoon hateful, therefore, if the cartoon had looked like this, they "might" have be okay with it. I kinda doubt that.

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[edited for typo]
Last edited by TheBlackRabbitofInlé on Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Free Speech Doesn't Apply To Holocaust / French atta

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 4 years 9 months ago (Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:54 pm)

Good article in Haaretz on this cartoon issue:

Hook-nosed Jew vs. Mohammed cartoons: What’s the difference?

Genuine freedom of speech includes the right to publish offensive cartoons as well as the right to protest them.

By Shoshana Kordova | Jan. 21, 2015

[...]

The problem is that France, which has some of the toughest hate speech laws in the European Union and has made it illegal to deny the Holocaust, doesn’t actually offer its citizens full free speech rights. Outlawing hate speech may sound like a good idea, but when one kind of comment gets people lionized and another kind gets them jailed, all the arguments about the beauty of democracy and freedom of speech are shown to be nothing but worthless words. The excessive yet inconsistent restrictions France imposes on freedom of speech and religion make it clear that it is not the bastion of democracy it claims to be, and this patchwork liberty reinforces what in France are indeed well-founded suspicions of a double standard.

All of us, French lawmakers included, would do well to recall the words of U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas, in a 1949 majority ruling overturning the conviction of a man whose pro-Hitler hate speech sparked a protest. “The right to speak freely and to promote diversity of ideas and programs is therefore one of the chief distinctions that sets us apart from totalitarian regimes,” Douglas wrote in Terminiello v. Chicago. “Accordingly, a function of free speech under our system of government is to invite dispute.”

Is everyone always going to agree on where to draw the lines, whether literal or figurative? That would be highly improbable, and the precise location of the border between satire and insult will likely serve as a rich vein of argument for decades to come. Let’s not shut down those arguments, whether by limiting freedom of speech or by dismissing questions about what embodies it and what undermines it. Instead, let’s follow Douglas’ suggestion and invite dispute, as long as it’s the sort that involves words and images rather than guns and bombs.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.638243
Last edited by TheBlackRabbitofInlé on Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Free Speech Doesn't Apply To Holocaust / French atta

Postby hermod » 4 years 9 months ago (Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:00 am)

TheBlackRabbitofInlé wrote:In Australia the Press Council has recently rules on a cartoon that offended the wrong people:

Image
... cartoon in the Sydney Morning Herald on 26 July 2014. It was associated with an opinion piece on the conflict in Gaza.


Conclusions

The Council emphasises that cartoons are subject to its Standards of Practice. The application of those Standards however, takes account of the fact that readers can reasonably be expected to recognise that cartoons commonly use exaggeration and caricature to a considerable degree and therefore should be interpreted by them with this in mind.

In this instance, the cartoon's linkage between the Jewish faith and the Israeli rocket attacks on Gaza was reasonably likely to cause great offence to many readers. A linkage with Israeli nationality might have been justifiable in the public interest, despite being likely to cause offence. But the same cannot be said of the implied linkage with the Jewish faith that arose from inclusion of the kippah and the Star of David. Accordingly the Council's Standards of Practice were breached on the ground of causing greater offence to readers' sensibilities than was justifiable in the public interest.

http://www.presscouncil.org.au/document-search/adj-1634/


So the PC claims that the Star and David and the kippah made the cartoon hateful,


Are these Israeli Jews, watching Israeli bombings on Gaza, aware that their kippah makes them hateful?

Image

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"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915


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