two British decodes of Police Batallion 320

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 8969
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

two British decodes of Police Batallion 320

Postby Hannover » 2 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:11 pm)

[This discussion began in another thread:
Racist producer Weinstein wants Jews to 'kick critics ass'
which started as an obviously different topic and morphed into this one.

I have moved those different topic posts to this thread.
Thanks, Moderator]
==================================================================================================

Thames Darwin claimed:
-- two years before the war began and four before mass killing of Jews began.

I challenge Thames Darwin, who has admitted that he is really Andrew Mathis*, to prove that there were "mass killing" of Jews. He cannot, but strangely wants 6M Jews to be dead. His repetition of the now thoroughly debunked 'holocaust' history is all talk.

* Mathis has posted & debated here many times, search this forum and see the results.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.
The tide is turning.


If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
TheBlackRabbitofInlé
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 829
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:38 am

Re: two British decodes of Police Batallion 320

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 2 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:00 pm)

Here's some proof of mass killings:

27 Aug 1941:
Police Regiment South shot 914 Jews
Police Battalion 320 shot 4,200 Jews

31 Aug 1941:
911 Jews shot in Slavuta
Police Battalion 320 shot 2,200 Jews

10013.png
from HW 16/45
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
- Prof. Noah Charney

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 8969
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: two British decodes of Police Batallion 320

Postby Hannover » 2 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:21 pm)

TheRabbit said:
Here's some proof of mass killings:

Don't make me laugh.
These are non-uniformed 'partisans', as stated in the decode text, "partisanen" (aka: saboteurs, terrorists), of which many Jews belonged, who were legally executed upon capture per Geneva Convention. This was a legit and common war time action, all such saboteurs / terrorists were executed by all sides.

That's your best shot, Rabbit?

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.
The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

avatar
Thames Darwin
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 191
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:55 pm

Re: two British decodes of Police Batallion 320

Postby Thames Darwin » 2 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:39 pm)

Hannover wrote:TheRabbit said:
Here's some proof of mass killings:

Don't make me laugh.
These are non-uniformed 'partisans', as stated in the decode text, "partisanen" (aka: saboteurs, terrorists), of which many Jews belonged, who were legally executed upon capture per Geneva Convention. This was a legit and common war time action, all such saboteurs / terrorists were executed by all sides.

Perhaps you could explain then why Jews are listed separately from partisans?

By the way, partisans were protecting their country and people from a hostile invasion. I dare say any patriotic person would do the same thing.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 8969
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: two British decodes of Police Batallion 320

Postby Hannover » 2 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:02 pm)

Thames Darwin:
Perhaps you could explain then why Jews are listed separately from partisans?

By the way, partisans were protecting their country and people from a hostile invasion. I dare say any patriotic person would do the same thing.

They were listed separately because it helped the Wehrmacht & Police to understand who the "partisanens" that Germany was fighting really were. Much as the Allies categorized all those they executed. Nothing more than data collection, which was / is normal for armies-police forces worldwide. Much ado about nothing there.

No, the "invasion" was a pre-emptive strike as proven by the Russians themselves.
Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

True, I do realize that most natives will resist foreign occupation, just ask the Palestinians. But that completely misses the point in this case.

Thanks, Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

avatar
Thames Darwin
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 191
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:55 pm

Re: two British decodes of Police Batallion 320

Postby Thames Darwin » 2 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:37 pm)

Hannover wrote:Thames Darwin:
Perhaps you could explain then why Jews are listed separately from partisans?

By the way, partisans were protecting their country and people from a hostile invasion. I dare say any patriotic person would do the same thing.

They were listed separately because it helped the Wehrmacht & Police to understand who the "partisanens" that Germany was fighting really were. Much as the Allies categorized all those they executed. Nothing more than data collection, which was / is normal for armies-police forces worldwide. Much ado about nothing there.


I hope you realize that neither the text nor the numbers bear out what you allege.

On the first page, the first time that partisans are mentioned, the text reads, "Achievements:- 1st Brigade: 6 partisans, including 1 lieutenant, arrested. In pursuit of 18 fleeing partisans, the {demolition experts} in Emilczyn captured 7."

Note: The word in brackets is the one I had to guess at the meaning.

The next time partisans are mentioned, one or two lines down, it reads, "20 partisans, including 4 armed women, captured and shot. In Slawuta, 21 km northeast of Scheptowka, 4 Russians arrested and handed over. 911 Jews shot. Police Battalion 302 in an action in Minkowzy, shot 2200 Jews. Losses: 1st SS Brigade: 2 men injured by a landmine; car totally destroyed."

So a grand total of 44 partisans are mentioned, plus 4 Russians, but a total of 3111 Jews. Is your imputation that the vast majority of partisans were Jews? Because that's the only way you can say the Jews referred to here are partisans.

Clue: Not nearly all of the partisans were Jews, particularly in Ukraine, where this action reported is taking place. Only about 10% in total.

True, I do realize that most natives will resist foreign occupation, just ask the Palestinians. But that completely misses the point in this case.


Does this mean that you're OK with Israel shooting Palestinian partisans? Because if you aren't, then you've got something of a problem with consistency to boot. And if you are, then you've got a lower opinion of Palestinians than I thought.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 8969
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: two British decodes of Police Batallion 320

Postby Hannover » 2 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:30 am)

Here is what David Irving has to say about these decodes:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/PoliceDecodes.html

It is worth noting, as the late Professor Sir Frank Hinsley the official historian points out, that nowhere in these myriads of (top secret, enciphered) messages is there any reference to gas chambers or gassings. 'The returns from Auschwitz, the largest of the camps with 20,000 prisoners, mentioned illness as the main cause of death, but included references to shootings and hangings. There were no references in the decrypts to gassing.' [Hinsley et al., British Intelligence in the Second World War: Its Influence on Strategy and Operations, Cambridge, 1979 - 84, 3 vols., vol. ii, appendix, page 673.]

and:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/decodes/Decodes.pdf
... In all these thousands of decodes, the word Juden is very rare to find.
Summary impressions .....the SS police regiments and battalions are fighting partisans ...

Thames Darwin:
I hope you realize that neither the text nor the numbers bear out what you allege.

Yes they do. The numbers were gathered specifically for Jew partisans as they were for other groups, unidentified partisans were obviously described simply as partisans. I also think the numbers were inflated, as do many.
Not nearly all of the partisans were Jews, particularly in Ukraine, where this action reported is taking place. Only about 10% in total.

True, not all were Jews, no one said they were. Not sure of the percentage, I find your 10% unreliable. Regardless, the point is irrelevant.
Does this mean that you're OK with Israel shooting Palestinian partisans? Because if you aren't, then you've got something of a problem with consistency to boot. And if you are, then you've got a lower opinion of Palestinians than I thought.

A faulty 'hasbara handbook' comparison. Besides, I'm not "OK" with shooting anyone, even though under international law the executions of non-uniformed combatants was completely legal.

Summary, these decodes on fighting partisans were small beer, these types of actions were done by all sides in WWII.
again:
In all these thousands of decodes, the word Juden is very rare to find.


Still waiting for your proof of '6M & gas chambers'.

And we are way off topic from my OP.

Thanks, Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.
The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2630
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: two British decodes of Police Batallion 320

Postby Hektor » 2 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:57 am)

The decodes in British hands are of course 100% reliable evidence for anything. But let's leave the technicalities aside for arguments sake.

The German armed forces viewed the Jews as carriers of Bolshevism So did the local population in the Baltic states, Ukraine, etc. And it is plausible to some extent:
https://archive.org/details/BarnesRevie ... UdoWalendy

There were also Massacres in the Baltics, Belarus, Ukraine, etc. just before the Germans liberated those areas. Again Jews were suspected for involvement. The locals and the Germans must have been very upset about it.
https://archive.org/details/WehrmachtWi ... rInLemberg

That again made Jews the logical candidates for hostages in reprisals. But then didn't we discuss this on the forum several times? I'm certain there are numerous other threads.

User avatar
TheBlackRabbitofInlé
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 829
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:38 am

Re: two British decodes of Police Batallion 320

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 2 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:12 am)

Hannover wrote:TheRabbit said:
Here's some proof of mass killings:

Don't make me laugh.
These are non-uniformed 'partisans', as stated in the decode text, "partisanen" (aka: saboteurs, terrorists), of which many Jews belonged, who were legally executed upon capture per Geneva Convention. This was a legit and common war time action, all such saboteurs / terrorists were executed by all sides.

That's your best shot, Rabbit?


I could say exactly the same to you, Hann'.

As has already been pointed out, Jews and partisans are listed separately, so the above is demonstrable untrue. But if you want to propose Jeckeln used the word "Juden" as some form of euphemism for gentile partisans, the onus is yours to prove it.

Hannover wrote:Here is what David Irving has to say about these decodes:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/PoliceDecodes.html

It is worth noting, as the late Professor Sir Frank Hinsley the official historian points out, that nowhere in these myriads of (top secret, enciphered) messages is there any reference to gas chambers or gassings. 'The returns from Auschwitz, the largest of the camps with 20,000 prisoners, mentioned illness as the main cause of death, but included references to shootings and hangings. There were no references in the decrypts to gassing.' [Hinsley et al., British Intelligence in the Second World War: Its Influence on Strategy and Operations, Cambridge, 1979 - 84, 3 vols., vol. ii, appendix, page 673.]


And that has what to do with mass shootings in the Soviet Union? Which of course David Irving doesn't contest.

and:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/decodes/Decodes.pdf
... In all these thousands of decodes, the word Juden is very rare to find.
Summary impressions .....the SS police regiments and battalions are fighting partisans ...


Irving knows full well the reason for that:

Two days after Churchill’s broadcast a further German police report,
this time from the Berdichev–Korosten area, was shown to Churchill, which
mentioned that the Russians were still retiring and burning the villages.
‘Prisoners taken number forty-seven, Jews shot 1,246, losses nil.’ Churchill,
who had like Hitler a voracious appetite for statistics, ringed that figure
‘1,246’ in his trademark red ink. The next day S.S. Gruppenführer Friedrich
Jeckeln, commanding in the Ukraine, signalled that his task force attached
to Police Battalion No. 320 had shot 4,200 Jews near the town of Kamieniets-Podolsk;
four days later he announced the shooting of 2,200 more. On
September 12, Churchill read these statistics too. The scale of these executions
was, suggested Bletchley Park’s historian later, ‘a clear indication of
the utter ruthlessness of the Germans in Russia.’

Churchill’s angry revelation of this slaughter, in his radio broadcast from
Chequers, had one immediate consequence. On September 13 the radio
monitors heard S.S. Obergruppenführer Kurt Daluege, Hitler’s top police
general (‘alarmed perhaps by our evident awareness of the unspeakable
activities of his police in Russia’) signalling this warning to the three Höhere
SS- und Polizeiführer commanding police forces on the Northern, Central,
and Southern Russian fronts: ‘The danger of decipherment by the enemy of
wireless messages is great,’ this stated. ‘For this reason only such matters
are to be transmitted by wireless as can be considered open.’ In future,
information classified confidential or secret could still go by radio, but
‘not information which, as containing State secrets, calls for especially secret
treatment.’ ‘Into this category,’ ruled Daluege, ‘fall exact figures of
executions.’ These execution-figures were to be sent by courier.

Since it was the prime minister’s broadcast which had evidently resulted
in this Nazi security clampdown, ‘C’ sent him a summary of this message
too. ‘On September 13,’ the Bletchley Park paraphrase read, ‘the three officers
were reminded that the danger of their messages being decoded was
great. Among other secret matters that should not be sent by wireless was
the number of executions carried out.’ Churchill, unabashed by the consequence
of his own security lapse, sidelined each sentence in red ink.

From now on the intercepted messages contained euphemisms like ‘action
according to the usage of war’ under the heading which had formerly
contained the figures for executions. Inevitably, the ‘frontline’ S.S. commanders
still committed bêtises: on September 11, the S.S. police commander
South reported that in an ‘action according to the usage of war
...Police-Regt. South liquidates 1,548 Jews.’ As Churchill’s codebreakers
reported, ‘A touch of somewhat macabre humour emerges from the warning
recently issued to Senior Officers that executions were not to be reported
by W/T. The order has been variously interpreted – some report
“Action according to the usages or war”, while others report that so many
partisans are “dead” – as distinct from “shot”.

- David Irving, Churchill's War, V.2, pp.65-66
http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Churchill/2/Pt1.pdf
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
- Prof. Noah Charney

User avatar
TheBlackRabbitofInlé
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 829
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:38 am

Re: two British decodes of Police Batallion 320

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 2 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:45 am)

Hannover wrote:Here is what David Irving has to say about these decodes:

[...]

and:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/decodes/Decodes.pdf
... In all these thousands of decodes, the word Juden is very rare to find.
Summary impressions .....the SS police regiments and battalions are fighting partisans ...


In addition to the fact the Germans took evasive action after cottoning on in September 1941 that they were being listened to (see above), Bletchley Park never broke their most secret communications:

For their most secret communications, however, these organisations [SiPo, Kripo and Gestapo] used from an early stage in the war an Enigma key (called TGD after its Berlin call-sign) which was never broken and was regarded by GC and CS [Government Code and Cypher School] as the key of the Gestapo.

F H Hinsley et al., British Intelligence in the Second World War Volume II, p.668.
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
- Prof. Noah Charney

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 8969
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: two British decodes of Police Batallion 320

Postby Hannover » 2 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:59 am)

Rabbit, now this is the 2nd best you can do. I'll cut to the chase.

You quoted Irving from his 'Churchill's War' a section about a propaganda speech Churchill made.
It's one thing to make a claim it's another to prove it.
I see nothing in that quote to prove that the Germans were murdering masses of Jews and then stopped mentioning it in their reports to hide the claimed acts of mass murder of Jews.
I see no mention of Daluege saying anything about Jews.
It's understandable that the Germans would be concerned about Churchill making propaganda out of German action reports, and they would certainly be concerned about interception of messages, but there is nothing there to disprove my point that deaths of Jews were part of legal & legitimate anti-partisan actions.
Or better yet there is nothing there to prove your claim of mass murders of Jews. The onus is upon the accuser.

Just for the sake of thoroughness:
Do you have the full text of Daluege's alleged "warning"?
May we see the report from the "radio monitors"?

And BTW, since the locations of these alleged "mass shootings" are known, please show us verifiable excavations, show us the verified human remains of Jews.

you asked:
And that has what to do with mass shootings in the Soviet Union? Which of course David Irving doesn't contest.

A lot, as in this thread we have someone who believes in the laughable '6M & gas chambers' nonsense. Please follow along.
And then your "mass shootings" should probably be defined. My opinion is that shootings were part of anti-partisan activities, and that even these numbers were exaggerated by the reporting unit.

You disagree, but cannot show us proof. That's where we are.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

avatar
Thames Darwin
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 191
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:55 pm

Re: two British decodes of Police Batallion 320

Postby Thames Darwin » 2 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:03 pm)

Hannover wrote:You quoted Irving from his 'Churchill's War' a section about a propaganda speech Churchill made.
It's one thing to make a claim it's another to prove it.


I think you're missing the point. Irving notes that Churchill circled a passage from the very Bletchley decrypts from among which the Bunny posted.

I see nothing in that quote to prove that the Germans were murdering masses of Jews and then stopped mentioning it in their reports to hide the claimed acts of mass murder of Jews.


One need only look at subsequent decrypts from Bletchley.

I see no mention of Daluege saying anything about Jews.


Consider for a minute what you're saying: If what Bunny says is right, then he, by his own orders, would not have said anything, would he?

It's understandable that the Germans would be concerned about Churchill making propaganda out of German action reports, and they would certainly be concerned about interception of messages, but there is nothing there to disprove my point that deaths of Jews were part of legal & legitimate anti-partisan actions.


Actually, to prove that, you still have to explain why Jews and partisans are listed separately or to assert with any reliability whatsoever that the vast majority of partisans were Jewish.

I think this one is point to Bunny.

avatar
Carto's Cutlass Supreme
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2237
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:42 am
Location: Northern California

Re: two British decodes of Police Batallion 320

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 2 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:28 pm)

Hi Thames Darwin,

You quoted Hannover's post extensively, but why no response to where he said:
And BTW, since the locations of these alleged "mass shootings" are known, please show us verifiable excavations, show us the verified human remains of Jews.


Thames, can you show anything on this? Anything that's comparable to the documentation of Katyn? Carlo Mattogno discusses how extensive the documentation of Katyn was:
When the Germans discovered the graves of the victims of the Soviet NKVD
at Katyn and Vinnytsya, they did not simply drill holes in the ground with a
manual drill – they opened the graves, exhumed the corpses, did autopsies,
and tried to identify them.
On April 13, 1943, on the basis of information from the local population,
the Germans discovered seven graves containing a total of 4,143 corpses of
Polish soldiers in the forest of Katyn. Between April and June, the bodies
were examined by a commission consisting of physicians from twelve European
countries, by a commission of the Polish Red Cross, and by U.S., British,
and Canadian officers who were prisoners of war. The Germans then published
an official report with the forensic medical findings of the investigation,
containing 80 photographs and the names of the victims identified.234
The Vinnytsya massacres were discovered by the Germans in the beginning
of June 1943. Ninety-seven mass graves were found in three different locations,
containing the bodies of 9,432 Ukrainians murdered by the Soviets.
Between June 24 and August 25 no fewer than 14 commissions, 6 of them
composed of foreigners, visited the mass graves. Again, the Germans collected
the results of their findings in a substantial publication: 282 pages with
151 photographs, with forensic medical reports, and victims’ names.235
Carlo Mattogno, Belzec, page 77


Can you show anything like this?

avatar
Thames Darwin
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 191
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:55 pm

Re: two British decodes of Police Batallion 320

Postby Thames Darwin » 2 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:35 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:Thames, can you show anything on this? Anything that's comparable to the documentation of Katyn?


As I've already said, I refuse to get into lengthy debates here. I'll debate virtually anywhere else, but not here.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 8969
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: two British decodes of Police Batallion 320

Postby Hannover » 2 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:38 pm)

Thames Darwin, sorry, but it is you who is missing the point.

Regardless of what Churchill supposedly circled and then made propaganda use of, we have no record of Daluege telling his officers to hide alleged murders of Jews in the reports, period.

There is nothing in the decodes which cannot easily be explained in the context of actions against partisan terrorists. Jews got killed because, as shown, they were involved with the partisan terrorists. Your arguments are tortured at best. The onus is upon the accuser, you, to produce proof that these Jews were killed outside this context.

You said this when referring Daluege not saying anything about Jews:
Consider for a minute what you're saying: If what Bunny says is right, then he, by his own orders, would not have said anything, would he?

So Dauege didn't say anything specifically about Jews and according to you he must have been transmitting orders to his subordinates by osmosis, telepathy. Funny stuff, really.

you said:
Actually, to prove that, you still have to explain why Jews and partisans are listed separately or to assert with any reliability whatsoever that the vast majority of partisans were Jewish.

Again, Jews as a category were mentioned with other partisans, these partisans were also categorized. I suggest you read the decodes.
Also, please re-read this thread, I never said "the vast majority of partisans were Jewish."
I said "many", which is a fact. No false strawman arguments.

You ignored this:
And BTW, since the locations of these alleged "mass shootings" are known, please show us verifiable excavations, show us the verified human remains of Jews.

We know why

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Kingfisher and 6 guests