Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

[Hektor]

Werd said:

"Hermann testified he went to an SS man telling him to keep quiet about the planned executions that were coming. He testified at Nuremburg in an Einsatzgruppen case in 1947"

Nuremberg was a farce; by 1947 many National Socialists had already been assassinated after their show trials.
Hermann could have said anything during a "trial"; maybe he feared for his family, who knows?

"But you raise an interesting point that could be applied to this one as well. Bodies and autopsies appear to be lacking"

Yes, that's the "key" to ALL of the show trials; not a scrap of physical evidence.
....
Ask "Nessie" if he has a reference to any photographs or films of investigations a la Katyn?
Any mass grave exhumations, photos of corpses, autopsies?.....and see how quickly he changes the subject.

But don't you know that this is because of Paul Blobel taking care of all that evidence:

In June 1942 he was put in charge of Aktion 1005, with the task of destroying the evidence of all Nazi atrocities in Eastern Europe. This entailed exhumation of mass graves, then incinerating the bodies. Blobel developed efficient disposal techniques such as alternating layers of bodies with firewood on a frame of iron rails.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Blobel

Hahaha, there is also another gem in that article:

Hartl had told me of a summer evening—that same hot summer in 1942—in Kiev when he was invited to dine with the local Higher SS Police Chief and Brigadeführer, Max Thomas. A fellow guest, SS Colonel Paul Blobel, had driven him to the general's weekend dacha. 'At one moment—it was just getting dark,' said Hartl, 'we were driving past a long ravine. I noticed strange movements of the earth. Clumps of earth rose into the air as if by their own propulsion—and there was smoke; it was like a low-toned volcano; as if there was burning lava just beneath the earth. Blobel laughed, made a gesture with his arm pointing back along the road and ahead, all along the ravine—the ravine of Babi Yar—and said, 'Here lie my thirty-thousand Jews

[Dresden]

Hektor said:

But don't you know that this is because of Paul Blobel taking care of all that evidence:

“In June 1942 he was put in charge of Aktion 1005, with the task of destroying the evidence of all Nazi atrocities in Eastern Europe. This entailed exhumation of mass graves, then incinerating the bodies. Blobel developed efficient disposal techniques such as alternating layers of bodies with firewood on a frame of iron rails"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Blobel

Hahaha, there is also another gem in that article:

“Hartl had told me of a summer evening—that same hot summer in 1942—in Kiev when he was invited to dine with the local Higher SS Police Chief and Brigadeführer, Max Thomas. A fellow guest, SS Colonel Paul Blobel, had driven him to the general's weekend dacha. 'At one moment—it was just getting dark,' said Hartl, 'we were driving past a long ravine. I noticed strange movements of the earth. Clumps of earth rose into the air as if by their own propulsion—and there was smoke; it was like a low-toned volcano; as if there was burning lava just beneath the earth. Blobel laughed, made a gesture with his arm pointing back along the road and ahead, all along the ravine—the ravine of Babi Yar—and said, 'Here lie my thirty-thousand Jews'"

Thank you, Hektor!
My apologies to "Nessie"; I didn't realize there was such "hard" evidence to back up his claims!

"Blobel laughed, made a gesture with his arm pointing back along the road and ahead, all along the ravine—the ravine of Babi Yar—and said, 'Here lie my thirty-thousand Jews'"

I bet Blobel isn't the only one that laughed!

[Werd]

41:50-42:50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx9G4zmpKv0#t=41m50s

Yay or nay?

[Werd]

I don't recall anyone discussing this yet.

Saturday, April 30, 2011
The Atrocities committed by German-Fascists in the USSR (1)
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... cists.html

"The Atrocities committed by German Fascists in the USSR" is the title of a Soviet documentary film shown at the Nuremberg Trial of the Major War Criminals before the International Military Tribunal on 19 February 1946, parts of which used to be viewable on Youtube.

Despite its title, the Soviet documentary also shows Nazi atrocities committed outside the Soviet Union's borders as of 22 June 1941, including the concentration and extermination camps of Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek. This part of the documentary is addressed in the third part of this series, while the first two parts are about those crimes shown in the documentary that were committed on Soviet territory.

The images shown in this article are stills from the Soviet documentary, which can be enlarged by clicking on them. This is not recommended for sensitive persons as the images are sometimes very graphic. Like the documentary itself, they nevertheless show but a minuscule part of the crimes committed on Soviet territory by the Nazi invaders, and even of the crimes that occurred at the locations filmed – crimes against Soviet prisoners of war and civilians, Jews and non-Jews. The Jews among the murder victims shown are never referred to as such, presumably pursuant to the Soviet policy of not "dividing the dead" and not acknowledging that the Jews' fate under Nazi occupation was different from that of other Soviet nationalities. To the documentary's Soviet commentator, all civilian victims were simply "Soviet citizens".

Some of these pictures are pretty gruesome. Dead women and children included.

Kerch is a city on the Kerch Peninsula of eastern Crimea. During World War II it was taken by the Germans in November 1941, recaptured by the Red Army at the end of December 1941, again occupied by the German in May 1942 and finally retaken by the Soviets in April 1944. On 6 January 1942 the Soviet news agency Tass reported that the Germans had massacred nearly 7,000 Russians during their (first) occupation of Kerch. Molotov’s Note on German Atrocities in Occupied Soviet Territory dated 6 January 1942 mentioned that

According to preliminary figures, about 7,000 persons were killed by the German fascist bandits in Kerch.

The following is my translation of Andrej Angrick’s description of a mass execution of Kerch Jews in early December 1941 (Angrick, Einsatzgruppe D, pp. 356-358).

In the usual manner Sonderkommando (Sk) 10b took over the prison, in order to turn it into a collection point for the Jews until their execution. This time the special detachment was under time pressure, as the [Wehrmacht] local headquarters already reported to the Army Rear Area Commander that the liquidation of the Jews would be »carried out at an accelerated pace due to precarious food situation in the city«, although at this time not even the registration had been completed. The local headquarters acted on the assumption that of the 50,000 people remaining in the city 15 per cent were Jews, i.e. that it would soon have to feed 7,500 people less. On the first three days of December the »resettlement« of 2,500 Jews was carried out, the rest remained in hiding as it had meanwhile been informed about the task of Ohlendorf's flying detachment. The murder of 2,500 people could barely be carried out by the small partial detachment on its own. Additionally the partial detachment commander Finger seems to have been close to a nervous breakdown. But the local headquarters in this situation did not deny the special detachment its assistance. It undertook not only to organize the transport of the Jews and the execution site’s sealing-off, but also to make available additional marksmen (who probably belonged to the 46th Division). Ammunition for the execution also came from the Wehrmacht; big boxes stood near the anti-tank ditch, and every marksman could get what he needed, regardless of where he shot with a rifle or a machine pistol. During a joint dinner with members of the 46th Infantry Division Finger had furthermore on his own initiative invited a Wehrmacht soldier, telling him that if he had »good nerves« he could come to the execution site to see how some »2,000 Jews are shot«. Despite the decree that forbade Wehrmacht soldiers to enter the execution site this man got on his way following Finger’s invitation, as he wanted to make certain whether »actually such large number of Jews« would be killed. At a temperature of minus 20 degrees trucks brought the victims to the execution site, where auxiliaries – so-called Hiwis - spurred them on with clubs. At the collection point the prisoners were deprived of money, watches and other valuables, their upper clothes were torn off their bodies, and particularly pretty children's shoes were also taken away from them. Offside the place where the trucks stopped there were large heaps of clothes, furs, children's shoes, caps and watches. Some of the people, who already guessed what would happen, started to wail, the older ones put their hands together and looked up to the sky.
Meanwhile sufficient food for the marksmen had been brought to the anti-tank ditch, as the killing would last long. The other partial detachment commander, Siegfried Schuchart, who was present himself on the third day at the latest, had furthermore taken care that winter clothing and warm drinks (including mulled wine) were available for the marksmen. Sk 10b have never before carried out an execution of this magnitude. For all participants this was a new quality of crime, but also an »enormous burden«, so that the partial detachment command did everything to make murdering as easy as possible for the marksmen. The victims were brought on in two separate groups, the men in one, the women and children in the other. Yet the murderers "granted" exceptions. Among the women there was an elder overweight man, who was being dragged to the execution site supported by two youngsters. Once they arrived at the anti-tank ditch the victims had to run into it and stand against the steep wall, the marksmen standing above them. Then everything went very fast, there was a "crack" and "the people lay on the ground". A "better" family, which was also allowed to stay together, instilled respect even into the guards. The man shortly spoke with one of the marksmen. At the moment when he embraced his wife with the small child on her arm they were shot together – perhaps as he had wished. Smaller children were »overlooked« again and again; not understanding what was happening they dragged themselves out from underneath the heaps of corpses, looked around frightened and crawled over the dead. If a marksman saw on of these children, he stepped into the ditch, held his weapon’s muzzle against the child’s neck and pulled the trigger. Many of the victims spoke German. One man contemptuously shouted at the marksmen: »If you shoot, aim well. Heil Hitler.« […]
The local headquarters, in its activity report of 7 December to its superior authority, euphemistically called the murder »resettlement« - the original term »annihilation« (Vernichtung) had been crossed out – and obviously considered the »operation« a success. However, what was meant by »resettlement« and what local headquarters expected the Kerch partial detachment of Sk 10b to do in the near future already became clear from the next sentence, in which it the following was unmistakably stated: »One must expect additional executions as a part of the Jewish population fled, is in hiding and must first be apprehended.«

Some more photos provided by HC.

[Hektor]

I don't recall anyone discussing this yet.

Saturday, April 30, 2011
The Atrocities committed by German-Fascists in the USSR (1) ...
Some of these pictures are pretty gruesome. Dead women and children included.












....
Some more photos provided by HC.

So how do we know those are people deliberately killed by the "Fascists"? Do we have to take the Soviet officials word for it?

[Werd]

Those two cities mentioned, Kerch and Barvenkovo, are known to have been occupied by Germans. Were all the children partisans? Or were they executed by the Soviets? If they were executed by the Soviets, where is the proof of that? And what would be the motive?

[Hannover]

Those two cities mentioned, Kerch and Barvenkovo, are known to have been occupied by Germans. Were all the children partisans? Or were they executed by the Soviets? If they were executed by the Soviets, where is the proof of that? And what would be the motive?

Yes the cities were occupied by the Germans, so were many other cities, that means nothing.
Where is the proof that these people were illegally murdered by the Germans? The onus is upon the accuser.
These photos smell of crudely contrived, miscaptioned communist propaganda that was so typical of the period.

The real photos in that contrived collection (many are embarrassingly manufactured and or miscaptioned fakes) remind me of the Katyn Forest massacres of thousands of Poles blamed on the Germans, but proven to have been done by the Soviet communists, see:
http://codoh.com/media/files/documents/ ... atyn_v.pdf

More to follow on these.

This is too easy.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.

[Werd]

Yes the cities were occupied by the Germans, so were many other cities, that means nothing.

Means and opportunity.

The real photos in that contrived collection (many are embarrassingly manufactured and or miscaptioned fakes) remind me of the Katyn Forest massacres

So the corpses at Kerch and Barvenkovo are victims of Soviet aggression?

More to follow on these.

I can hardly wait.

[Hannover]

points:

Let's recall that the storyline says the Germans exhumed all the corpses, burned them and reburied them in attempting to hide their crimes, so according to the official narrative these remains would not exist, if the narrative was true. And certainly the Germans would not leave such incriminating 'murdered innocent civilians' behind to incriminate themselves, if they were responsible.

Dead people can be displayed and captioned to mean anything that a propagandist wishes, proves nothing other than there are dead people depicted.

specifics:

Look at this crude fake.


Notice how fake the supposed corpses look in comparison to men in the background.
Phoney as a three dollar bill.

Like these debunked fakes of man allegedly being shot into a pit:

llustration Group 15 (a, b, c; next page) is said to document the execution of Polish Jews at the edge of an open grave.[42] Sometimes the shooting soldier is wearing glasses, sometimes he is not; sometimes his collar patch has white edges, sometimes not. Especially in illustration 15c he looks as though he was cut out and pasted in. There are white outlines around his uniform, and he lacks a shadow. The men at the transition into the background also look cut-and-pasted. Try to match their legs to their bodies! This is possibly a photomontage at best, but definitely, at least, a forgery with drawn-in sections.

another look:

more here:
'Do Photographs Prove the NS Extermination of the Jews?'
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndgcffor.html

Check out this obviously, embarrassingly staged arrangement. Note the set design-like barbed wire complete with German language sign. The Germans would not have left such incriminating evidence, if they actually were responsible.



And look at this one:

A pile of corpses?, or whatever that pile of something is supposed to represent, with people added in the background, embarrassingly obvious

This one:


If these are real corpses (they could be anything) there is zero proof that the Germans did this, anyone could and did write captions to say whatever they wanted.

Notice how fuzzy, cloudy so many of these 'photos' are, an attempt to blur the poor quality of the tampering, the low quality of forgery.

- Hannover

[Hektor]

Those two cities mentioned, Kerch and Barvenkovo, are known to have been occupied by Germans. Were all the children partisans? Or were they executed by the Soviets? If they were executed by the Soviets, where is the proof of that? And what would be the motive?

I presume you mean Kerch and Barvinkove.
Those would then be cases on their own. May I ask the photos / video stills to be attributed to each location first?

Now lets assume what they are showing us are indeed corpses and not some mock-ups, which is indeed what some pictures suspiciously look like. Both sites were places of immense battles during world war two. So the most likely corpses would be from soldiers AND civilians killed in those battles.

Anyway caption on one still suggest picture was taken on 31.12.1943

However if we read the IMT records:

The special equipment for mass extermination of people in hermetically closed automobiles in which the exhaust pipes were connected to the bodies of the car by means of special movable tubes was utilized by the German fascists for the first time in the U.S.S.R. in 1942. I would like to remind the Tribunal that these gas vans were mentioned for the first time in a report which I have already submitted to the Tribunal concerning the atrocities of the German fascist aggressors in the town of Kerch. This document was submitted as Document Number USSR-63 and refers to the spring of 1942.

I remind the Tribunal of an excerpt from the statements of the witness Darya Demchenko who saw how from two murder vans
German military personnel in Kerch dragged out the bodies of the murdered and dumped them into an antitank ditch.
However, the mass extermination of people in gas vans was ascertained without reasonable doubt for the first time in the report of the Extraordinary State Commission on atrocities of the German occupiers in the Stavropol region. This document was submitted to the Tribunal by me earlier as Exhibit Number USSR-1 (Document USSR-1). Investigation of the crimes committed by the German fascists in the Stavropol region was directed by a prominent Soviet writer and member of the Extraordinary State Commission, Academician Alexey Nikolaevitch Tolstoy, who now is deceased.
This very thorough investigation was undertaken with the assistance of the most prominent specialists in forensic medicine, inasmuch as human imagination, having set definite logical limits to any crime, could only with difficulty then accept the existence of these machines. However, the results of the investigation corroborate in full the testimony of surviving witnesses regarding the murder vans and the German fascist mass murders of peaceful citizens executed by this means.

It seems to deal with something supposedly having occurred in spring of 1942. The corpses look far too fresh for that.
Btw. Alexey Tolstoy was a novelist specializing in science fiction and historical fiction. It seems they found the perfect person for the job.

[Hannover]

Werd said:

Those two cities mentioned, Kerch and Barvenkovo, are known to have been occupied by Germans. Were all the children partisans? Or were they executed by the Soviets? If they were executed by the Soviets, where is the proof of that? And what would be the motive?

Both were also occupied by the Soviet Red Army and the Soviet NKVD. "Means and opportunity" indeed.

And who has a verifiable record of blaming their own mass murders and war crimes on the other? ... see Katyn for starters.

Who, as I and many others have demonstrated, has a record of embarrassing forgeries and altered images?

Werd:

So the corpses at Kerch and Barvenkovo are victims of Soviet aggression?

First things first, are they really from "Kerch and Barvenkovo / Barvinkove"? I see no proof of that.

The fact remains that you nor the source of the images have provided proof that these photos resulted from illegal German mass murders. It's just that simple.

from the IMT as quoted by Hektor:

Investigation of the crimes committed by the German fascists in the Stavropol region was directed by a prominent Soviet writer and member of the Extraordinary State Commission, Academician Alexey Nikolaevitch Tolstoy

Hektor informs us:

Alexey Tolstoy was a novelist specializing in science fiction and historical fiction. It seems they found the perfect person for the job.

Indeed,
Alexey, fictional gas vans, Nikolaevitch, science fiction writer, Tolstoy.
Excellent digging, Hektor. It's all so absurd that it's difficult to imagine so many howlers and dead giveaways, yet they abound through the storyline.

Werd's "wait" is over.

Regards, Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.

[Dresden]

The IMT records say:

"This document was submitted to the Tribunal by me earlier as Exhibit Number USSR-1 (Document USSR-1)"

Where can we find this document?
I want to see what a real Soviet forensic investigation looks like, with autopsies proving that the victims died of poison gas.

If there are no autopsies proving poison gas, then "the mass extermination of people in gas vans.....ascertained without reasonable doubt for the first time in the report of the Extraordinary State Commission on atrocities of the German occupiers in the Stavropol region" is worthless and nothing but a bluff.

Hopefully there is an English translation of the "report.

[TheBlackRabbitofInlé]

The IMT records say:

"This document was submitted to the Tribunal by me earlier as Exhibit Number USSR-1 (Document USSR-1)"

Where can we find this document?

North Dakota.
http://www.und.edu/instruct/calberts/Nuremberg/ogl17.html

Hopefully there is an English translation of the "report.

I doubt that there would be, but Soviet prosecutor Smirnov quoted from it several times (search: USSR-1):
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-15-46.asp
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-18-46.asp
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-19-46.asp
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-26-46.asp

[Dresden]

Thank you, BRoI.

As expected.....not a peep about an autopsy proving death by poison or poison gas in any of the quotes, even though they had forensic pathologists on the job.

The only autopsy mentioned is:

"The autopsy performed on bodies of dead infants by the legal-medical investigation proved that they had been thrown into the ditch alive, together with their mothers who had been shot"

[Breker]

Thank you, BRoI.

As expected.....not a peep about an autopsy proving death by poison or poison gas in any of the quotes, even though they had forensic pathologists on the job.

The only autopsy mentioned is:

"The autopsy performed on bodies of dead infants by the legal-medical investigation proved that they had been thrown into the ditch alive, together with their mothers who had been shot"

We rather seriously doubt there was even an autopsy on the dead infants. It's more ridiculous junk from a ridiculously named Extraordinary State Commission. As was pointed out and ludicrous as it sounds, was directed by a science fiction writer.
'OK students, put on your thinking cap.'
B.