Doubts about Tattoos

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astro3
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Doubts about Tattoos

Postby astro3 » 3 years 9 months ago (Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:26 pm)

In my book I believed in Primo Levi getting his tattoo number 174,517 at Auschwitz – and accepted his argument, that the numbers were sequential so that that number of prisoners had received tattoos before him.

Now I’m having doubts, viz that
* All the tattoo numbers are five-digit. They are not sequential.
* Only Jews claim to have them.
* No German source mentions them
* Tattooing would take twenty minutes per prisoner, and why bother?

Here is Carlos Porter’s take: http://www.cwporter.com/tattoo1.htm, a radical scepticism

We get phantasms of ‘interchangeable needles’ but these sound most unhygienic. Would you agree to them when typhus was raging?

Carlos Porter is always quite humorous. He demands,
SHOW ME OR DRAW ME A “NAZI TATTOOING MACHINE”

In my study of published articles by Revisionists (put up here: http://whatreallyhappened.info/journals.html) there was nothing on the subject.

But last year an amazing new story was revealed by the Daily Mail – ‘evil’ looking tattoo devices! They found the number-pieces that were supposedly used as tattoo blocks, now in some museum. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -camp.html

Does that really look like German technology?

When I was in the Weiner library (Russell Square, London), the ‘world’s biggest Holo-library’ checking out its newly-released ITS database, l asked the lady in charge of it if there was any data on the tattoo-numbers, and she found that there wasn’t.

So, what's the answer?

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Re: Doubts about Tattoos

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 3 years 9 months ago (Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:33 pm)

I'm glad you posted that. I'm skeptical too. I've been thinking about this very topic. Tattoos are against Jewish law. If you get tattooed you can't be buried in a Jewish cemetery? Of course this is probably if one gets a voluntary tattoo, and I've heard even that is flexible. But tattooed numbers: I've seen huge numbers. I've seen small numbers. I think I've seen numbers in different angles to the forearm. I've seen Psyche Warfare footage showing the number on the stomach. Tattoos on Jewish prisoners would have been the biggest PR field day for the allies. A PR nightmare for the Germans. So in 1943,44,45 are there all kinds of references to Jews getting tattoos at Auschwitz? Because whereas the alleged gassings would be top secret the tattoos could not have been top secret. I've also seen people lying who had a number tattoo, but plenty of people were no doubt at Auschwitz and also happen to be liars. I've seen a tattoo in Russian footage where the 3 or some was backwards, or some number, because the Russians use a cyrillic numerals and didn't copy correctly.

But it begs the question: all these people after the war who had a tattoo. How then, did that come about?

Also tangentially connected are the SS blood type tattoos. This shows that tatooing as a way to ID was there.

But if "Special Treatment" really meant special treatment, in other words, because there was a Public Relations war going on, give Jews special treatment so it's harder for them to say they are being treated bad, then how would a tattoo be in the equation?

And as a quick glance at the Porter article points out: the famous footage of 3-5 year olds rolling up their arms to show tattoos. Really? A little kid gets a tattoo? As Porter points out: tattoos take a long time. Everybody knows that with the ubiquity of tattoos. Everyone knows they're painful.

I think there's another thread on this somewhere also.

If I remember correctly, Joachim Neander provided some tattoo research somewhere.

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Re: Doubts about Tattoos

Postby Kingfisher » 3 years 9 months ago (Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:20 pm)

I checked up the official version on USHMM and Jewish Virtual Library as well as Wikipedia. They seem to be near-identical, therefore a single source.

The first thing to note is this from the JVL:
[D]espite the importance of the tattoos, as testament, symbol, and historical artifact, little scholarship has been devoted to the subject. There exist virtually no official period documents relating to the practice; what we know stems from anecdotal evidence contained in camp records and the accounts of those who were at the camps.

Only "anecdotal evidence".

The next thing I note is the huge quantity of numbers allegedly issued: literally hundreds of thousands
The first series of prisoner numbers was introduced in May 1940, well before the practice of tattooing began. This first series was given to male prisoners and remained in use until January 1945, ending with the number 202,499... Approximately 90,000 female prisoners were identified with a series of numbers created for female prisoners in March 1942 until May 1944.

That's only a part of the total number.
It is generally accepted that the tattooing of prisoners began with the influx of Soviet prisonersofwar into Auschwitz in 1941.


There should be at the very least tens of thousands wandering around with these tattoos in the years after the war, but for how many is there clear evidence? How many prominent former inmates like Elie Wiesel and Simone Veil decline to show their tattoo? Try searching for "Auschwitz tattoo" on Google Images. Very few black and white photos and some of them are duplicates. (They include the well-known "it must be there somewhere" tiny kids filmed by the Soviets.) The more modern colour photos also include duplicates and almost as many copy-cat imitation tattoos on young people.

By the way, CCS, Cyrillic numerals are not relevant. They haven't been used since the time of Peter the Great!

It is not alleged that only Jews were tattooed. Gypsies and Soviet POWs are mentioned.

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Re: Doubts about Tattoos

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 3 years 9 months ago (Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:49 pm)

Following is an extract from an article published in the Sept 2011 edition of the International Journal of Dermatology:

Tattooing at Auschwitz-Birkenau was introduced by the camp authorities to facilitate the identification of corpses in response to the high death rate among inmates.[3] Although prisoners’ uniforms displayed serial numbers assigned at registration, there was no way of identifying a body once the uniform had been removed. To address this problem, prisoners’ serial numbers were written across their chests with a copy pencil. The first tattoos were performed in 1941 on Soviet prisoners, using a special metal stamp holding interchangeable numbers made up of needles about 1 cm long.[3] This stamp was then punched onto the left side of the prisoner’s chest and ink was rubbed into the wound. Polish prisoners and other inmates were subsequently tattooed in this manner.

In 1942, a single-needle device replaced the metal stamp and was used to pierce serial numbers into the left forearms of Jewish inmates.3 Tattooing became routine for other categories of non-German prisoners at Auschwitz-Birkenau, such as Gypsies, who were tattooed with the letter ‘‘Z’’ before their own unique series of numbers. Some Jewish inmates had a triangle tattooed below their numbers. A separate series of tattoo numbers was issued for male and female inmates.[3]

[...]

3. Iwaszko T, Kubica H, Piper F, et al. Auschwitz 1940–1945: Central Issues in the History of the Camp, vol. 2. Oswiecim: Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum 2000; 22–26.
- "Tattooing, Auschwitz style" by Leonard J. Hoenig MD
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-4632.2011.04907.x/abstract



I don't own the cited volume, so can't check it without a library visit, but I do have a copy of "Tattooed numbers in the camps of Auschwitz-Birkenau" by Gilles Cohen (1993), and he quotes heavily from Taudeusz Iwaszko's 1980 paper "Tätowierung der Häftlinge des KL Auschwitz", which appears to be the most detailed study about tattooing at Auschwitz.

You can obtain a copy of Cohen's paper in the National Archives Library:
http://tna.koha-ptfs.co.uk/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?biblionumber=13949

Danta Czech's Auschwitz Chronicle details (perhaps not without mistakes) on which days what numbers were given out in the camps.

I don't want to sound rude astro3 (anti-revisionists will certainly have no such qualms if they decide to comment on your thread), but I think you're on completely the wrong track here; nos. 1, 2 and 4 of your bullet points can easily be shown to be nonsense.
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
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Re: Doubts about Tattoos

Postby Inquisitor » 3 years 9 months ago (Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:36 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:.
There should be at the very least tens of thousands wandering around with these tattoos in the years after the war, but for how many is there clear evidence? How many prominent former inmates like Elie Wiesel and Simone Veil decline to show their tattoo? Try searching for "Auschwitz tattoo" on Google Images. Very few black and white photos and some of them are duplicates. (They include the well-known "it must be there somewhere" tiny kids filmed by the Soviets.) The more modern colour photos also include duplicates and almost as many copy-cat imitation tattoos on young people.


I've lived the bulk of my life in the NY/NJ and have known LOTS of Jews, some of whom were allegedly "survivors." I am now a middle-aged man and have never once seen an Auschwitz tattoo. I also asked a Jewish female acquaintance about this - she had never seen one either, and she lived a number of years in a Jewish neighborhood in NYC in her youth, as well as being surrounded by Jews all her life!

Purely anecdotal, of course. But an observation all the same.


-----------

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Re: Doubts about Tattoos

Postby Hannover » 3 years 9 months ago (Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:44 pm)

Some random thoughts.

The Daily Mail – ‘evil’ looking tattoo devices' article is preposterous, those tools look like chisels or drill bits of some kind that someone has attached to small steel plates. It's as if the shysters think that tattoos never occurred worldwide until the Germans invented these Rube Goldberg contraptions.

But with the absurd 'holocaust', proof of anything is not required.

Image

FWIW, I recall a Jewish man I used to play basketball with who had a tattoo on his forearm, but that's the only one I've seen.

Jews certainly know how to make the tattoo story questionable with fakes like this.

Image

Until there is more in depth research I feel there's more mileage gained from the fact that the carriers were not 'exterminated' as they should have been according to marketed impossible storyline.
"Children of tender years were invariably exterminated since by reason of their youth they were unable to work.”
[extracted from tortured] Auschwitz commandant, Rudolf Hoess, quoted in Shirer, p. 968, Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.

Yet:
Image
Image

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Doubts about Tattoos

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 3 years 9 months ago (Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:23 am)

I'd like to know how much talk there was about Auschwitz tattoos mid-war.

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Re: Doubts about Tattoos

Postby borjastick » 3 years 9 months ago (Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:35 am)

The whole tattoo scenario and resulting claims is too loose for my liking. Not Germanic, not organised, not comprehensive, made up on the run etc etc.

It's got more holes than a Swiss cheese.

Those with tattoos love to show them and take pride in being 'branded' ones. Those who should have one, claim to have one, and we all know who these famous ones are, refuse to show them and talk about their experience.

And then we have the fantasists who claim to have been given one (presumably so they can be part of the Real Auschwitz Club) but who claim they were visited by the angel of death who magically removed the tattoo. Though they cannot show the stretched, aged and ugly resulting skin marking. Being part of the Fantasists Club confers greater status and privilege, so they think...
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: Doubts about Tattoos

Postby Horhug » 3 years 8 months ago (Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:55 pm)

Hello TheBlackRabbitofInlé

Re your earlier post where you mention the Au museum book series, Auschwitz Central Issues Vol 2

I've attached scans of pages, 22, 23, 181 and 182 from Volume 2 as PDFs

these are the only pages which mention tattoos in that volume

Cheers

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Re: Doubts about Tattoos

Postby Hannover » 3 years 8 months ago (Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:19 pm)

Good work.

Tattooing just before gassing is claimed in the scanned text.
Why then would the Germans have even bothered?

Well, they wouldn't have bothered, if the impossible 'gassings' tale was true.
Identification tattoos would not have been necessary for those 'about to be gassed'.
A patently absurd storyline.

Again, it all makes no sense.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Doubts about Tattoos

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 3 years 8 months ago (Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:04 pm)

Horhug wrote:Hello TheBlackRabbitofInlé

Re your earlier post where you mention the Au museum book series, Auschwitz Central Issues Vol 2

I've attached scans of pages, 22, 23, 181 and 182 from Volume 2 as PDFs

these are the only pages which mention tattoos in that volume

Cheers

Horhug


That's great Horhug. Thank you for sharing.

It's way past my bed time so I'll have to look at these tomorrow and post any comments I might think of.
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Re: Doubts about Tattoos

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 3 years 8 months ago (Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:44 am)

Hannover wrote:Tattooing just before gassing is claimed in the scanned text.

No it's not.

Hannover wrote:Why then would the Germans have even bothered?

The scanned text doesn't claim they bothered, you just made it up.

Hannover wrote:Well, they wouldn't have bothered, if the impossible 'gassings' tale was true.

Again, they haven't claimed anyone did bother.

Hannover wrote:Identification tattoos would not have been necessary for those 'about to be gassed'.

That's precisely what the USHMM says.

Hannover wrote:A patently absurd storyline.

Probably because it's your straw man. You can't blame them for that.

Hannover wrote:Again, it all makes no sense.

Again, that's because you're arguing against claims that the book doesn't make.
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
- Prof. Noah Charney

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Re: Doubts about Tattoos

Postby Hannover » 3 years 8 months ago (Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:04 pm)

Rabbit, I see you are behaving like a child, again. Must be your anxiety over your inability to support your laughable 'phosgene gassings at Natzweiler' claim that I challenged you on. :lol:

Anyway, have you lost your ability to comprehend the English language, or did you even read what Horhug scanned?
Regardless, there are definite references to my points, I'll spoon feed them to you.

Here we go, p. 23, 3rd Horhug scan:
Prisoners sentenced to be shot were also marked in this way before execution. The difficulties in identifying the corpses increased in the autumn of 1941, when mass killing of Soviet POWs began at Auschwitz. [storyline says they were 'gassed', Rabbit]
That was when the camp authorities, acting on their own initiative, commenced tattooing.....

A year later, the camp authorities ordered ALL prisoners be tattooed, both those who had previously been registered and new arrivals [the storyline says many new arrivals were 'gassed upon arrival', Rabbit]

Beginning in May 1944, Jewish prisoners were given the additional letters A and B to distinguish new series of registration numbers in use at that time. [recall the claims about 400,000 Jews from Hungary in 1944 many allegedly 'gassed upon arrival', Rabbit]

For unknown reasons, prisoners from several transports in 1943 had their numbers on the inner side of their left upper forearms. [again, it's claim many were 'gassed upon arrival', Rabbit]
So there, I have you yet again.

Regards, Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Doubts about Tattoos

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 3 years 8 months ago (Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:26 pm)

Hannover wrote:Rabbit, I see you are behaving like a child, again. Must be your anxiety over your inability to support your laughable 'phosgene gassings at Natzweiler' claim that I challenged you on. :lol:


It's Mattogno's phosgene gassing claim, not mine. My position purely is that Mattogno's body of work of the alleged gas chambers of the Third Reich demands that his opinion is taken seriously.

You dodged all invites to actually address Mattogno's arguments, instead resorting to childish hand waving and begging for spoonfeeding of documents anyone else would simply google for themselves. Hence why I opted not to waste further time on your irrelevancies.


Hannover wrote:Anyway, have you lost your ability to comprehend the English language, or did you even read what Horhug scanned? There are definite references to my points.
Here we go, p. 23, 3rd Horhug scan:
Prisoners sentenced to be shot were also marked in this way before execution. The difficulties in identifying the corpses increased in the autumn of 1941, when mass killing of Soviet POWs began at Auschwitz. [storyline says they were 'gassed', Rabbit]
That was when the camp authorities, acting on their own initiative, commenced tattooing.....

A year later, the camp authorities ordered ALL prisoners be tattooed, both those who had previously been registered and new arrivals [the storyline says many new arrivals were 'gassed upon arrival', Rabbit]

Beginning in May 1944, Jewish prisoners were given the additional letters A and B to distinguish new series of registration numbers in use at that time. [recall the claims about 400,000 Jews from Hungary in 1944 many allegedly 'gassed upon arrival', Rabbit]

For unknown reasons, prisoners from several transports in 1943 had their numbers on the inner side of their left upper forearms. [again, it's claim many were 'gassed upon arrival', Rabbit]
So there, I have you yet again.


It speaks volumes about you that you're shameless enough to post that rubbish.

No where does in those scanned pages does it state, or even hint, that those gassed on arrival were first tattooed.
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
- Prof. Noah Charney

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Re: Doubts about Tattoos

Postby Hannover » 3 years 8 months ago (Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:47 pm)

Rabbit says:
It's Mattogno's phosgene gassing claim, not mine. My position purely is that Mattogno's body of work of the alleged gas chambers of the Third Reich demands that his opinion is taken seriously.

You dodged all invites to actually address Mattogno's arguments, instead resorting to childish hand waving and begging for spoonfeeding of documents anyone would simply google for themselves. Hence why I opted not to waste further time on your irrelevancies.
And you believe in Mattogno's rare error, yes you said you do. Since Mattogno can't support his 'phosgene gassings' position it's curious that you hang onto to such absurdities. Oh well, that's your problem, Rabbit.
I dodged nothing, I addressed his points which were incoherent & did not give proof of laughable phosgene gassings. You've embarrassed yourself and are now at a loss.

There is no proof of phosgene gassings, Mattogno nor yourself can produce any. If you could, you would. You cannot.

Rabbit:
It speaks volumes about you that you're shameless enough to post that rubbish.
No where does in those scanned pages does it state, or even hint, that those gassed on arrival were first tattooed.

There we go, more laughable panic mode language.

I merely copied it, Horhug posted it. Get over it.
The text is very clear about claims of tattooing just prior to 'gassing'.
It's now confirmed, you do not comprehend English text that is spoon fed to you. :lol:

The field is mine, sir.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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