The Sonderkommando problem

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SamuelGordy
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The Sonderkommando problem

Postby SamuelGordy » 4 years 3 months ago (Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:08 am)

Hello!

So, I haven't read any of the holocaust handbooks, but have read a lot of topics and sources posted on this forum, so you could say I am a lazy holocaust reseacher who just pops around the forum sometimes and thinks he knows it all. :)

My question to all of you, because I have not yet seen the similiar question being asked (even if it maybe is out there) is:

If this was supposed to be a secret operation in which the Jewish workers aka The Sonderkommandos literally witnessed the murder of millions and later helped to get rid of the corpses, why were those people kept alive? Forget the documents, forget the eyewitnesses, THESE people should be the first ones to get rid of if you're trying to destroy the evidence od mass murder!!

I mean, that just doesn't make any sense... It's like the story about the pyramids and the builders and architects who were allegedly all killed becaose they knew all the secrets about the passages and all that.

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby borjastick » 4 years 3 months ago (Sat Dec 26, 2015 12:18 pm)

The Sonderkommando is a strange one indeed. One would have to ask some very basic questions to even start to put this into perspective.

Did they exist at all?

Why were they not exterminated as you suggest after the gassings stopped, especially as there was plenty of time prior to the camps being opened up etc?

Why were they never brought to justice for being accessories to murder or complicit in genocide?

Why were the few who claimed to be SK members feted by Israel and the jewish communities?

Were they simply a group who tended the crematoria for the completely normal process of cremating the bodies of inmates who died of normal causes, typhus, starvation etc etc?

There is little in print about this group, at least not in my books, and it sort of smacks of another oddity about Auschwitz, the tattoos.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby Dresden » 4 years 3 months ago (Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:55 pm)

Hello, SamuelGordy!

According to the "story", the SK were used for a couple of months and then gassed, and a new batch took their place; I think the ones that were scheduled to be gassed had to train their replacements on the art of extermination.....

"Ok, Abe.....ven da Jews come over here, you tell 'em: "Hey.....you're getting a fancy hair-cut".....and you, Shlomo.....ven da Jews come over to your section, you hand 'em a towel and a little bar of soap and say: "Aye, baby.....you need a shower"

In the words of the brave, fearless, incorruptible and self-sacrificing Abraham Bomba, as he tells how he shaved the heads of Jewish women from his neighborhood:

"Vat could you tell 'em?.....how could you tell 'em dat dis vas the last time that they would be alive?"....."Vee had to tell 'em they're just getting a hair-cut"..... "Vee had to do vat da joymin natzee SS said".

Snip...snip.....Neeeeeext!

Bradley Smith can help you out on understanding the "Sonderkommando problem", SamuelGordy; here is an article Bradley mailed out yesterday for Christmas:

http://codohfounder.com/the-night-i-was ... visionism/

And another classic from Bradley Smith:

"The Barber of Treblinka"

http://vho.org/tr/2003/2/Smith170-176.html
Last edited by Dresden on Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby Inquisitor » 4 years 3 months ago (Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:57 pm)

borjastick wrote:Were they simply a group who tended the crematoria for the completely normal process of cremating the bodies of inmates who died of normal causes, typhus, starvation etc etc?


That seems to be the most obvious explanation.

Of course the Jewish Virtual Library brings us this colorful description:

At Auschwitz, the Sonderkommandos had better physical conditions than other inmates; they had decent food, slept on straw mattresses and could wear normal clothing. Sonderkommandos were divided into several groups, each with a specialized function. Some greeted the new arrivals, telling them that they were going to shower prior to being sent to work. They were obliged to lie, telling the soon-to-be-murdered prisoners that after the delousing process they would be assigned to labor teams and reunited with their families. These were the only Sonderkommandos to have contact with the victims while they were still alive. The SS carried out the gassings, and the Sonderkommandos would enter the chambers afterward, remove the bodies, process them and transport them to the crematorium. Other teams processed the corpses after the gas chambers, extracting gold teeth, and removing clothes and valuables before taking them to the crematoria for final disposal. The remains were ground to dust and mixed with the ashes. When too much ash mounted, the Sonderkommandos, under the watchful eyes of the SS, would throw them into a nearby river.


Boy...those "sonderkommandos" must have been some busy Hebrews - and there must have been a huge number of them as well, to accomplish all of THAT across hundreds of thousands of bodies!

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 4 years 3 months ago (Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:05 am)

The story has the Jews being sonderkommandos so that the Jews could be the eyewitnesses. It's also a way to be an eyewitness without being executed by the allies after the war. The Jews who promoted the lie didn't have good enough relations with any other ethnicity to trust them with lifelong eyewitnesses. In other words the Jews couldn't partner up with Ukrainian Christians or Lithuanian Christians to conspire in the myth, and when you do have a Jewish-Christian partnership, communism is often holding it together so that there are some German (communist) lifelong witnesses.

Suppose the story was that they recruited Ukrainian Christians to run the gas chambers. Look at the problems with them then being executed in 1948, 1949. Or given huge prison sentences. If they didn't get that, look at the problems when, in the 1970's, they're still supposed to uphold their story, and the risk that they would change their minds and reveal the lie.

To my knowledge there was never a Jewish sonderkommando that served prison time. Nor any Jew indirectly involved in the alleged killing in the camp. Filip Mueller, Dario Gabbai did not do prison time.

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby hermod » 4 years 3 months ago (Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:39 am)

SamuelGordy wrote:If this was supposed to be a secret operation in which the Jewish workers aka The Sonderkommandos literally witnessed the murder of millions and later helped to get rid of the corpses, why were those people kept alive? Forget the documents, forget the eyewitnesses, THESE people should be the first ones to get rid of if you're trying to destroy the evidence od mass murder!!


According to the orthodox narrative, the Nazis just forgot to murder some of the last Sonderkommandos when they left Auschwitz. So the Holohoaxsters' explanation for the survival of some SK guys was an alleged kolossal Nazi blunder during the evacuation of Auschwitz-Birkenau.

IMO, the Sonderkommandos were mere cremation laborers who 'enriched' their stories with killing facilities when the victors of 1945 finally went with that narrative. And as the Germans feared typhus a lot (like everybody else in those days), the Sonderkommandos were kept isolated and so operated the crematoria by themselves. Some SK 'witnesses' claimed they were kept isolated for secrecy, but I think they were merely kept isolated for understandable sanitary reasons.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby SamuelGordy » 4 years 3 months ago (Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:56 pm)

Yeah, I just don't see how could a person mentally "survive" seeing thousands of murders every day, and on top of that to process thousands of dead bodies. Dario Gabbai, if I'm not mistaken, appeared in a movie just a few years after the war.

As for the Germans forgetting about the sonderkomandos - people don't just "forget" to do the most needed operations to cover their tracks, especially if the operation is of such magnitude and secrecy. Getting rid of eyewitnesses such as sonderkommandos should be the absolute PRIORITY. I imagine that even when it was obvious that the camps will be abandoned, there would be a maximum priority mission to make sure that the eyewitnesses don't exist.

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 4 years 3 months ago (Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:38 pm)

Yes, thanks to Eric Hunt for bringing the Dario Gabbai story into the revisionist light. He also discovered Gabbai's little movie role just years later. Even among revisionists, Dario Gabbai wasn't well known if known at all, before Hunt.

But yes, the Jewish sonderkommando aspect of the holocaust myth is so wrong, so ridiculous on so many levels. What believers do is add their own details to make it believable in their own head: "yeah if you were starving and about to be killed..." not knowing that the story is that they were well fed. Stuff like that.

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby neugierig » 4 years 3 months ago (Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:34 pm)

SamuelGordy
Yeah, I just don't see how could a person mentally "survive" seeing thousands of murders every day, and on top of that to process thousands of dead bodies.


Precisely. Then there would have been the stench of decaying bodies. For instance, Treblinka opened in July 1942, and according to the Dusseldorf Trial transcript between July 22 and October 10, about 310 000 Jews were murdered and buried. We are told that the graves were 10m deep, SK arranging the bodies with the sun beating into the grave. Can a normal human endure this? No.

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby hermod » 4 years 3 months ago (Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:26 pm)

SamuelGordy wrote:Yeah, I just don't see how could a person mentally "survive" seeing thousands of murders every day, and on top of that to process thousands of dead bodies. Dario Gabbai, if I'm not mistaken, appeared in a movie just a few years after the war.


No therapy as good as Hollywood Shiksas and parties to go through such a trauma, isn't it? :twisted:
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby NLH » 4 years 2 months ago (Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:24 am)

The Sonderkommando story doesn't add up for all the reasons outlined above,and a more realistic narrative for their purpose is also. Two revisionist perspectives are linked below.

"The Latest Sonderkommando Testimony"
by Wilfried Heink
http://revblog.codoh.com/2011/02/the-la ... ndnote2sym

"The Truth About the Gas Chambers?" Historical Considerations relating to Shlomo Venezia's "Unique Testimony"
by Carlo Mattogno
http://www.codoh.com/library/document/1920/
Alternative link: http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/arch ... ambers.php
Discussed here: viewtopic.php?t=7277

The below is direct from the US Shoah Foundation youtube channel.

Auschwitz II Birkenau Sonderkommando Testimony Clips


To my knowledge, the surviving Sonderkommandos (from Wikipedia) are "Henryk (Tauber) Fuchsbrunner, Filip Müller, Daniel Behnnamias, Dario Gabbai, Morris Venezia, Shlomo Venezia, Alter Fajnzylberg, Abram Dragon, David Olère, Henryk Mandelbaum, Martin Gray. There have been at most another six or seven confirmed to have survived, but who have not given witness (or at least, such testimony is not documented). Buried and hidden accounts by members of the Sonderkommando were also later found at some camps." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkommando) See also the section in the Wiki article called Controversies—History, Literature, and Film.

Listed below are books/documentaries with interview by Sonderkommando and books by them. (Eyewitness accounts from members of the Sonderkommando)

The below two are the discovered buried testimonies.

* The Scrolls of Auschwitz

* "Amidst a Nightmare of Crime: Manuscripts of Prisoners in Crematorium Squads Found at Auschwitz” 

Further testimonies

* Eyewitness Auschwitz, 1979, by Filip Müller

* We Wept Without Tears: Interviews with Jewish Survivors of the Auschwitz Sonderkommando
by Gideon Greif

* Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers, deposition by Henryk Tauber in the Polish Courts, May 24, 1945, p. 481–502, Jean-Claude Pressac, Pressac-Klarsfeld, http://www.mazal.org/archive/documents/ ... uber01.htm

* Dario Gabbai (Interview Code 142, conducted in English) video testimony, interview conducted in November 1996, Survivors of the Shoah Visual History Foundation, USC Shoah Foundation Institute, University of Southern California.

* Sonder. An Interview with Sonderkommando Member Henryk Mandelbaum , Jan Południak, Oświęcim, 2008, ISBN 978-83-921567-3-4

* Gideon Greif and Andreas Kilian, “Significance, responsibility, challenge: Interviewing the Sonderkommando survivors” Sonderkommando-Studien, April 7, 2004, http://www.sonderkommando-studien.dt/ar ... gnificance

* The Sonderkommando in Auschwitz-Birkenau" (in preparation, under French Director Michael Prazan.

* Evidence – The Sonderkommando by Gideon Greif

* Sonderkommando: The living dead of Auschwitz National geographic 2009
"Believe me, I came into Auschwitz in a much worse condition than I actually left it."
- Kitty Hart-Moxon, Jewish Holocaust Survivor.

June 1998 testimony, USC Shoah Foundation, Visual History Archive.
Part 2 - YouTube - 1:21:42

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby Horhug » 4 years 2 months ago (Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:28 pm)

Whilst not forgetting that according to the narrative, the evidently stupid Germans, permitted the entire "Sonderkommando" to be evacuated with them when Auschwitz was abandoned.


sonderkommando.info - Déposition de Szlama Dragon les 10 et 11 mai 1945


Google translation : Deposition Szlama Dragon on 10 and 11 May 1945
...

Evacuation:

I stayed in Block 3 of BIId camp until early January 1945.

Then I was transferred to the Sonderkommando in Block 16, where we were evacuated on January 18 in a convoy towards the Reich .

While we were walking, we were able, Tauber and me to run away around Pszczyna.

The entire Sonderkommando, more than 100 people, left Auschwitz. I do not know who survived.

These days, Van Kleib Mosiek, a Dutchman came back and, without stopping, went back to his country.

Among the prisoners of the Sonderkommando of Auschwitz were released including:

Zawek Chrzan of Gostynin;

Samuel, a French;

Leibel Grodno;

Lemko of Czerwony Bor;

David Nencel of Rypin,

Moszek Weingarten Jankel and Poland;

Sender Berlin;

Moryc Greece;

Abram Dragon Zeromin;

Serge, a French, the Blockälteste;

Abo Grodno;

Becker Berek Luma;

Kuzyn Radom and others I can not remember the names.

Other sources state that the following Sonderkommandos also escaped with Szlama Dragon (80359) after being evacuated :

- Stanislaw Janowski / Jankowski aka Alter Feinsilber

- Henryk Tauber (910124)

- Henryk Mandelbuam (181970)

Sources : Auschwitz Chronicles p. 786n and Amidst a Nightmare of a Crime
*
So according to the narrative, we have yet more "schizophrenic historiography" from the myth makers.

While the camp was operating the narrative would have us believe that the imperative was to conceal the alleged murderous activity by the regular "extermination" of the alleged Sonderkommando.

Yet when the time came to abandon the camp, these alleged primary eye witnesses to the alleged "factories of death" were allowed to walk out of the camp, so that they could live to tell their tale ...

It's the kind of narrative one would expect from an errant five year old ...



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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 4 years 2 months ago (Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:56 pm)

Yes, it's just shocking what a bad story it is. The name of USC behind a video and first person on it is Dario Gabbai!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SoTJ9cv028

There are weird political elements of the Jewish communist (wannabe) blue collar workers at the time. Like proud to be a Jewish blue collar worker, a skilled laborer, if it weren't for only it's a skilled laborer in a death factory rather than an industrial factory! LOL. Yankel Wiernik's book started that, but here at 15:20 Shlomo Venezia: "They needed us at the time. That's why they couldn't kill us." Because of their high workingman's skills of cremating bodies.

The story is so dumb.

Even how they matter of fact say the "dentists" pulled teeth out of the dead victims in this mass killing operation. If it had really happened, would they have some joky nickname for the people doing that? And years later in relating this story, had it really happened, they'd have to throw in the very dark humor "dentist" bit?

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby SamuelGordy » 4 years 2 months ago (Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:50 pm)

It just puzzles me that some of these things are really very easy to debunk. It's really not rocket science, it's pure common sense... I know sooo many people who would believe these amazing sonderkomando stories, It just breaks my heart. But, as said a million times before - saying you don't believe in the official version of the holocaost is literally the worst things you can ever say in this world. And it's amazing how, when you (like an experiment) say to people: "I dont believe that slavery in america happened" or "holomodor never happened", nobody blinks an eye.

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby Hannover » 4 years 2 months ago (Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:48 pm)

SamuelGordy wrote:It just puzzles me that some of these things are really very easy to debunk. It's really not rocket science, it's pure common sense... I know sooo many people who would believe these amazing sonderkomando stories, It just breaks my heart. But, as said a million times before - saying you don't believe in the official version of the holocaost is literally the worst things you can ever say in this world. And it's amazing how, when you (like an experiment) say to people: "I dont believe that slavery in america happened" or "holomodor never happened", nobody blinks an eye.

Well sir, as for the 'holocaust' storyline, you are quite right. As I frequently say:

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

As for someone saying that 'slavery never happened'; first, I really doubt that anyone would actually say that, and secondly, one would certainly be met with scorn if they did.

As for the 'holomodor', most people would not have a clue as to what you were talking about.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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