The question of why did many (most) Germans (and others in Nazi controled Europe) not help the Jews

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
okmatches
Member
Member
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:43 am

The question of why did many (most) Germans (and others in Nazi controled Europe) not help the Jews

Postby okmatches » 4 years 8 months ago (Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:06 am)

The Reichstag's Fire Decree and the Enabling Act, both issued/enacted in the first half of 1933, soon after the Nazi's rise to power in Germany, had created a situation in which, the country became a terror state. The meaning of it was that, not only political opponents of the regime, but also plain civilians, who were denounced by others for whatever reason, suffer a lot by the authorities.

Therefore, even decent Germans, who were not swept by the Nazi propaganda, soon realized that they would personally suffer a major punishment by the regime, had they done anything which was not acceptable by it, especially if helping the Jews.

Under such circumstances, it is reasonable for most people to, first of all, maintain their day to day lives and make sure they don't "mess" with the dictatorial regime.

I, as a Jewish person, can therefore understand and accept a situation in which a German would be afraid to help me, since he/she knew that had they been caught, they could have been put in jail, sent to a concentration camp, or "disappear".
It is not the exact number of Jews murdered, but rather the Nazis' explicit intentions and means of extermination, which define the Genocide that took place, the Holocaust.

User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2690
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: The question of why did many (most) Germans (and others in Nazi controled Europe) not help the Jews

Postby borjastick » 4 years 8 months ago (Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:44 am)

Germans are very ordered and orderly people. They are obliging and sticklers for things to be under control, they do not like trouble or surprises. They trust their government and stick to the laws of the land. They are decent people who to this day accept the story of the holocaust and their role and responsibility in it. Travel around Munich, as I have done, using the metro or subway system and you will be surprised that there are few, if any, ticket barriers. Why? Because Germans buy a ticket and conform to the expectations of them, thus a ticket barrier isn't necessary.

If the rule at the time was as you say that would be good enough for most Germans. Plus jews are not very difficult to dislike. One only has to see what israel says and does to understand why jews are disliked by many even today.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 10145
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: The question of why did many (most) Germans (and others in Nazi controled Europe) not help the Jews

Postby Hannover » 4 years 8 months ago (Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:07 pm)

okmatches wrote:The Reichstag's Fire Decree and the Enabling Act, both issued/enacted in the first half of 1933, soon after the Nazi's rise to power in Germany, had created a situation in which, the country became a terror state. The meaning of it was that, not only political opponents of the regime, but also plain civilians, who were denounced by others for whatever reason, suffer a lot by the authorities.

Therefore, even decent Germans, who were not swept by the Nazi propaganda, soon realized that they would personally suffer a major punishment by the regime, had they done anything which was not acceptable by it, especially if helping the Jews.

Under such circumstances, it is reasonable for most people to, first of all, maintain their day to day lives and make sure they don't "mess" with the dictatorial regime.

I, as a Jewish person, can therefore understand and accept a situation in which a German would be afraid to help me, since he/she knew that had they been caught, they could have been put in jail, sent to a concentration camp, or "disappear".

False premise.
There is legitimate reason to believe that the Reichstag fire was not started by National Socialists?

In separate threads here please respond to these requests:

- Please demonstrate how the Germans "realized" they would "suffer major punishment".

- Can you tell us of any government that will tolerate being 'messed' with?

- Why is there constant evasion of communist 'dictatorial regimes'?

- Please prove to us that being sent to labor camp equaled "disappear".

- Please tell us, assuming you accept the narrative, how the 'gas chambers' worked.

- Please tell us where we can see excavated enormous mass graves as alleged.

- Please tell us how the typhus abatement cremation facilities were able to cremate the numbers alleged within the time frame alleged. And then please show us the human remains.

- Please actually show us the enormous 'pits' where ca 2,000,000 Jew were supposedly shot into. It's claimed the locations are known.

- We really don't care if your are a Jew or not, you'll receive no special treatment here.

That's enough for now.

Welcome, Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

EtienneSC
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 578
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: The question of why did many (most) Germans (and others in Nazi controled Europe) not help the Jews

Postby EtienneSC » 4 years 8 months ago (Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:57 pm)

okmatches wrote: Therefore, even decent Germans, who were not swept by the Nazi propaganda, soon realized that they would personally suffer a major punishment by the regime, had they done anything which was not acceptable by it, especially if helping the Jews.

Under such circumstances, it is reasonable for most people to, first of all, maintain their day to day lives and make sure they don't "mess" with the dictatorial regime.

It is perhaps reasonable to expect that most people would go along with a lot, as a society of idealists could not function, but not that everyone would. People spoke out about the 'Night of the Long Knives' (30 June 1934) for example. Indeed, arguably those who go along simply expect others with more time to take an interest in politics to take up their slack. You make too many concessions to human weakness.

As noted above, it is principally the facts of what people went along with that are disputed on this site.

User avatar
Dresden
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1535
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:38 pm

Re: The question of why did many (most) Germans (and others in Nazi controled Europe) not help the Jews

Postby Dresden » 4 years 8 months ago (Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:32 pm)

Hello, okmatches, and welcome to the Forum!

Here is an article by Robert Faurisson that might help you to see beyond the Hollywood version of the Third Reich and the Jewish situation in Germany all the way up to the end of the War:

http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.it/1992 ... g-war.html

Daily life of German Jews during the war (Three documents)

By Pierre Moreau (of Brussels) and Robert Faurisson

It is known that in March 1933 worldwide Jewish organisations declared economic war on Germany. In September 1939 Chaim Weizmann declared armed warfare. In Europe during the war years Jewish resistance – especially in association with the communists – was active. To take just one example, on May 13, 1942 eleven Jewish communists belonging to the Herbert Baum group and the Werner Steinbrinck group (also called “Franka Group”) carried out an arson attack on the exhibition “The Soviet Paradise” at Berlin’s Lustgarten. Five German civilians were killed in the fire. [1]

The Germans considered the Jews as a whole to be representatives of a hostile belligerent power, all the more formidable since, internationally, it disposed of considerable resources in the field of finance (money, the sinew of war) and in those of the communications media and propaganda. Physical attacks engendered reprisals, which in turn gave rise to new attacks. Just as the Americans or the Canadians, considering persons of Japanese descent dangerous or hostile, decided – notwithstanding the absence of attacks or sabotage on their part – to place them in concentration camps, the Germans proceeded to evacuate large numbers of German Jews, putting them in concentration, labour or transit camps. However, a certain Jewish life subsisted openly in Germany all through the war. The three documents below make it possible to provide a sketch of that daily life: a newspaper, an excerpt from the telephone directory, a ration card. Obviously, the longer the war went on the further that daily life deteriorated, as did, for that matter, the lives of other Germans.

A newspaper


The first is the weekly Jüdisches Nachrichtenblatt [“Jewish Information Bulletin”], which was published altogether legally during the Second World War for German Jewish religious communities. It must be stressed that this newspaper was perfectly official, with its title, address and telephone number included in the telephone directory. Its offices were in Berlin N4, Oranienburger Straße 40/41. One gets the impression of a well-structured organisation and of social autonomy, a community suffering vexations but not finding itself in a tragic situation: things often seem even peaceful, considering the period and the taxing disruptions endured by the rest of the German population. Because of the shortage of paper, all German newspapers saw their dimensions shrink. Such was the case of the Jüdisches Nachrichtenblatt in January 1943, and its last issue appeared in December of the same year.

Let us analyze issue number 23 of 1942, dated June 5.

There are announcements of services to be held in nine synagogues in Berlin for the week of June 5-12. Also, the Jewish religious calendar for the corresponding week, running from the next sabbath day, i.e. “Siwan 21 to 28, 5702”. Also, a notice concerning the providing of Jewish funeral services, with the hours of availability of different telephone numbers. Worship activities in two other cities, Frankfurt am Main and Hamburg, are announced.

The death in Berlin, at the age of 86, of a well-known figure from Dessau is the subject of a special feature: it is the former banker Paul (Israel) Märker. “Mr Märker,” it reads, “was for several decades treasurer of the Cohn-Oppenheim foundation and a member of the governing committee of the Dessau community. He rendered great services to the Jewish community”.

For the town of Rheydt we have news of the golden wedding anniversary of a couple “highly esteemed amongst the Jews of the region. In particular, Mr Spier has distinguished himself by graciously fulfilling the function of cantor, thus enabling religious ceremonies to be maintained”.

The main article of Jüdisches Nachrichtenblatt consists of a purely technical presentation of the new legal provisions on the voluntary resignation of members of Jewish communities, which could take place only within narrow limits. Another piece announces the obligation for Jews to use only Jewish hairdressers.

For the rest, there are notices and advertisements, which shed light on the daily life of Jews in 1942 Germany.

Family announcements first. A wedding to be held on June 7. Newlyweds respond to their well-wishers. A young boy thanks those who congratulated him on the occasion of his barmitzva. Silver wedding, golden wedding anniversaries. Birthday celebrations of persons ranging in age from six to ninety. Then the obituaries of individuals, most often of an advanced age, others younger, “after a long and harrowing illness”. One lady and another “have gone peacefully to sleep” [sanft entschlafen].

In short, in the midst of war, the joys and sorrows of normal life.

There are other more prosaic advertisements. A Jewish bookshop [Jüdischer Buchvertrieb] publicises several titles: a biography of Theodor Herzl, the father of Zionism; another of Moses Hess, founder of modern socialism; yet another of Chaim Arlosoroff, Zionist activist assassinated in 1933 (in Tel Aviv). It also sells second-hand books, over the counter or by post. Payment is to be made either on collection or with the order, but delivery by return post is not guaranteed.

A lady, “qualified teacher”, offers private lessons in English and French. A music teacher who gives his lessons only in people’s homes. Persons looking for a guesthouse run by a Jewish family. Advertisements of premises to let, furnished or unfurnished, and others placed by individuals seeking to rent.

Practitioners of the art of healing – doctors, dentists, physiotherapists – are required to specify that they are authorised to treat Jewish patients alone, but they are able to publicise their practice.

They have an advertising section reserved for them called “Health Care”, wherein each gives, along with days and hours for consultations, an address and telephone number. Dr Jacob Wilmersdorf, Badensche Str. 21, II (corner of Kaiserallee), tel. 87 70 28, receives visits from 10 am to 12 pm and from 4 pm to 7 pm except Mondays and Wednesday afternoons; Saturday afternoons and Sunday mornings by appointment only. Dr Berthold Alexander, radiologist, receives patients at such and such hours at Augsburger Straße 19, mornings and afternoons (even on Sundays, if one understands correctly), but on Saturdays only in the morning. Dr Leopold Berendt, Friedrichstraße 3, also receives patients on Wednesday and Sunday mornings and Saturday afternoons, but only by appointment. Similarly, Dr Herbert Rittler offers consultations by appointment at Markgrafenstraße 20, except on Saturday afternoons and Sunday mornings. Sally Rosenthal is a physiotherapist and dispenses medical massages and localised light-baths, by appointment and on Saturdays from 10 am to 2 pm, in Neuen Roßstraße. And she is accredited by all the health care funds reserved for Jews [Zu allen Krankenkassen visible to zugelassen Juden]. “I have re-opened my practice,” announces Dr Max Brandenstein (Hamburg, Bundesstraße 35a, ground floor), who may be reached on the telephone at 55 71 50 care of Siegmund Elias (this advertiser had had some difficulties – of what kind no one knows – but his situation was, it seems, finally returning to normal).

“Conscientious and affectionate” care is offered for convalescence holidays for two or three children aged up to six, who will be collected and returned home.

Such was Jewish existence, seen in real-life snippets, in the capital and in some other big cities of the Reich in the middle of the war.

There existed an information bulletin whose readers took advantage of it to communicate with one another. Whatever its importance or however derisory its content, one must be allowed to take note of it, without making any assertions, without forcing conclusions.

A telephone directory

Another interesting piece comes from a telephone book with the full title: AMTLICHES FERNSPRECHBUCH für den Bezirk der Reichspostdirection BERLIN –Herausgegeben von der Reichspostdirektion Berlin / Ausgabe Juni 1941 / Stand vom 1. Februar 1941 [Official Telephone Directory for the Berlin postal sector – published by the Berlin directorate of the Reich post office / June 1941 edition / Information as at February 1, 1941].

On pages 581 and 582 appear the numbers to dial for the capital’s Jewish associations.

There are two and a half columns of dense print, listing the various centres, their addresses, activities performed, services available to members.

Below are the contents of the first part of the first section, that of the Jewish religious Federation: Jewish Communities of Berlin, registered firm [Jüdische Kultusvereinigung: Jüdische Gemeinde zu Berlin eV. (eingetragener Verein)]:

– Administrative buildings N4 Oranienburger Str 28, 29 and 31 –

*42 59 21.

At that number the following offices may be reached:

Archives – Construction – Receipts – Financial Management – Property Management – General Management – General accounting – Central fund – Land registry – Religious services and weddings – Equipment – Personnel – Press – Legal department – Revision service – Schools department – Bureau of statistics – Winter relief – Housing support – Central service of homes for the aged.

Evening and night:

Plörin, Oranienburger Str 29 (42 94 27).

Council Chamber of the Presidency (42 94 30).

– Administrative buildings N4 Oranienburger Str 31 –

*42 51 31.

At that number the following offices may be reached:

Office of emigration – Change of trade and social service – Arbitration and legal advice – Aid to the homeless – Aid to businesses (money).

Employment and services for foreigners (42 51 31).

*42 63 96.

The foregoing lines amount to only a bit more than 13% of the space in the directory reserved for Jewish associations connected to the Berlin telephone network in 1941, thus in the middle of the war.

Let us draw up a list of these entries, showing the complexity of the Jewish social structure at the time in the Reich’s capital alone. The list is not exhaustive because some entries are repeated in the various sections:

Schools administration – Aid to businesses (fund) – Housing aid – Aid to prisoners and to the homeless – Children’s aid – Arbitration and legal advice – Archives – Aid to the sick – Association for Jewish culture in Germany – Administrative buildings – Charity and protection of youth – Bureau of statistics – Construction office – Office of religious services and weddings – Land registry – Central fund – Clothing – Cemeteries (inspection of) – Private Jewish clinic – General accounting – Community kitchens – Housekeeping school – Primary school (boys) – Primary school (girls) –Private tertiary school – School of commerce – Vocational school for fashion design and decoration – Chemistry school – Housekeeping school – Middle school – Primary schools (eight addresses) – Employment and services for foreigners – Receipts – Gravediggers – Jewish National Fund (registered firm) – Home for nurses – Home for Jewish schoolteachers – Home for girls – Financial management – Property management – Home for ladies and girls – Home for Jewish youths – Old people’s care home – Home for Jewish infants and small children – Home for the sick – Home for children and adolescents – Children’s homes (three addresses) – Hospital at Auguststr. 16 – Hospital at Elsasser Str. 85 – Hospital at Iranische Str. 2 – Hospital at Schulstr. 78 – House of education – Stylz home for the blind – Home for deaf-mutes and the hard of hearing – Employment and services for foreigners – Nationalfonds (registered firm) – Office of emigration – Old men’s boarding house – Welfare service [Bereitschaftsfürsorge] – Resident population [Insasse] – Protection of youth – Professional reclassification and social service – South residence – North residence – Weißensee residence – Central residence – Children’s reading room – Winter relief – Jewish seminary for kindergartens and nurseries – Press – Revision – Schools – Equipment – Health – Press – Immigration – Schools – Central service of homes for the elderly – Dues/Contributions – Legal department – Personnel – Equipment.

There can be little doubt that the Jewish population established in Germany possessed its own legally recognized institutions. Their official status reflects the authorities’ position regarding them, but it was also perfectly consistent with the state of mind of the German population, as witnessed in late 1941 by the American Jewish journalist George Axelsson. While on a working visit to Germany he cabled a report to his newspaper, The New York Times (published on November 10, 1941 – page 31), about the Reich and the more than 200,000 Jews who were still there. He concluded it in these terms: “In public places or in contacts as a fellow-worker in factories the German working man seem to treat the Jew as an equal.” [2]

All this is hardly compatible with the usually presented image of Jews in Germany at that time. We see something quite removed from a hunted horde, uprooted, with no recourse of any kind, no possessions, no rights. Such a lot was not that of the Jews in general, but was indeed one which millions of Germans were to have to endure from 1945 onwards.

In the public mind a propaganda-induced substitution has been quite easily effected: the often fictitious destitution of the Jews under the Reich for the destitution, all too real, inflicted on the Germans, especially the deportees driven from their homes in the East in 1945 and afterwards.

Some will surely retort that the directory in question here dates from 1941 and that all the organization reflected therein was to be reduced to naught soon afterwards. That seems not to have been the case.

The International Committee of the Red Cross published just after the war a book on the German concentration camps: L’Activité du CICR en faveur des civils détenus dans les camps de concentration en Allemagne (1939-1945) [3rd edition, Geneva 1947]. On page 103 appears one of its delegates’ report, dated April 16, 1945, on his talks with SS-Obergruppenführer Müller of the SS-Führungshauptamt. It contains this sentence:

On the other hand [Müller] allowed me to place the Jewish assembly camp at Schulstrasse 78 in Berlin, as well as the Jewish hospital at Iranische Strasse 2, also in Berlin, under ICRC protection. [3]

Both addresses appear in the list that we gave above and are, effectively, those of two hospitals that still stood as Jewish property at the end of the conflict. One would like to know what became of the other two, along with the rest of the Jewish community’s properties. It is not rash to think that a good part of them, like thousands of other buildings, lay in ruins in heavily bombed Berlin. [4]

A ration card

But is it at all likely that something of a Jewish administration and, for that matter, some Jewish civilians still survived in Germany at war’s end? An element of response is provided on page 324 of Gérard Silvain’s book, La Question Juive en Europe, 1933-1945 [5]. Under the facsimile of a document the author put this caption:

1945

Adult’s food ration card (prime necessities).

The word “JUDE” has been set not only on the card but also on the coupon.

Between February 5 and March 4, 1945 were there still Jews living in freedom in German territory?

This card, from which the coupons have been detached, proves that it has been used and thus allows one to answer in the affirmative.

In fact, the period of validity of the card shown ran from February 5 to March 4, 1945, and the supplies office having issued it was that of Munich. It is indeed the case that not only the card but also the coupons bore the word “JUDE”, applied not by means of a stamp but printed, which means that the number of addressees of these cards was large enough to justify printing. Such printing therefore had to be planned. The ration cards were not handed out right and left but, as one will hardly doubt, dispensed on the basis of carefully drafted name lists. Have those lists all disappeared from all the German cities’ archives? That is difficult to believe. Thus the question arises: why are they not produced?

Besides, the Jews are above all city-dwellers and, as such, were particularly vulnerable since the Allies were, in the main, bombing only the cities. How many of them died as a consequence, burned in their houses? Unless we are mistaken, that has never been disclosed but, here again, confirmed figures must have survived.

In some cases Jewish children were sent to the countryside to escape the bombing; so it was with Lea Rosch, today a major German television personality.

The period from February 5 to March 4, 1945 was that of the bombing of Dresden (February 13-14). The Allies were killing German civilians by fire. The Germans, as we see, were feeding Jewish civilians.

In May 1945 the Soviets installed Dr Werner as head of the municipality of Berlin. They asked him to create, within the city council, a religious services body made up of a Catholic priest, two Protestant pastors and a rabbi representing, for his part, the 6,000 Jews of the city (Georges Soria, L’Allemagne a-t-elle perdu la guerre ?, Paris, Bibliothèque française, 1947, p. 23).

_____________

Notes

[1] See Eliyahu Maoz, “Une Résistance juive en Allemagne”, Commemoration of the ghetto revolt, Jerusalem, March 1965, 15 pages produced in photocopy by the organisation department of the World Zionist Organisation; see also the article “Berlin” in the Encyclopedia Judaica (1971).

[2] Quoted by James J. Martin, The Man Who Invented Genocide / The Public Career And Consequences of Raphael Lemkin, Institute for Historical Review, Torrance, Calif., 1984, p. 35. On the exact condition of the Jews working alongside German workers at Fürstengrube, one of the 39 auxiliary camps of Auschwitz, one may read the astounding document NI-10847 translated, rather poorly, in La Persécution des juifs dans les pays de l’Est presentée à Nuremberg, a compendium of documents published under the direction of Henri Monneray, Editions du Centre [de documentation juive contemporaine], Paris, 1949, p. 201.

[3] “The Jewish hospital, directed by Dr Walter Lustig, was in operation up to the end of the war. […] The Jewish cemetery in Weissensee was also functioning” (Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, 1990, p. 202).

[4] On November 24, 1943, a British aerial bombardment destroyed the “New Synagogue” of Oranienburgstrasse 30. The photograph of that synagogue in flames has, since 1945, circulated throughout the world with the following explanation: the synagogue was destroyed by arson, imputable to the Nazis, during the Kristallnacht of November 8-9, 1938. Not long ago the German post office published a postage stamp presenting that version of the facts, also repeated recently in the French daily Le Monde (Frédéric Edelmann, “Le Souvenir d’une négation”, February 8, 1992, p. 17). However, in 1987, a publication of the Berlin Jewish community, prefaced by its head Heinz Galinski, had admitted the truth (see the brochure Wegweiser durch das jüdische Berlin – “Guide to Jewish Berlin”).

[5] Paris, Editions Jean-Claude Lattès, 1985.
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

User avatar
Dresden
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1535
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:38 pm

Re: The question of why did many (most) Germans (and others in Nazi controled Europe) not help the Jews

Postby Dresden » 4 years 8 months ago (Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:52 pm)

okmatches -

Here's a booklet that will help you in your search for Truth:

Hot off the press...

Holocaust Handbooks, Volume 12:

Ingrid Weckert: Jewish Emigration from the Third Reich

2nd revised and expanded edition, 130 pages, January 2016.

If you click on the following link, you can buy the book or download it for free:

http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=12

Image

Here is a description of the book:

Holocaust Handbooks, Volume 12:

Ingrid Weckert: Jewish Emigration from the Third Reich
2nd revised and expanded edition

Historical writings to date dealing with matters related to the Third Reich paint a grim picture. This applies especially to writings that deal with the Jewish ethnic group. To this day there are still accounts of the Jewish emigration that depict it as some kind of clandestine operation – as if the Jews who wished to leave Germany had to sneak over the borders in defiance of the German authorities, and leave all their possessions and wealth behind.

The truth is that the emigration was welcomed by the German authorities, and benefitted from encouragement and assistance that increased over time. Emigration was not some kind of wild flight, but rather a lawfully conducted and regulated matter. Weckert‘s booklet elucidates the emigration process in law and policy, thereby correcting the traditionally received picture of Jewish emigration from Germany significantly.

German authorities and Jewish-Zionist agencies worked closely together on this emigration. Jews interested in emigrating received detailed advice and offers of help from both sides. The accounts of Jews fleeing Germany in secret by night across some border or straits are fabulous. On the contrary, the German government wished German Jews only to live elsewhere. The myths to the contrary were contrived only to accord with the greater myth of genocidal intent and were capitalized upon by erstwhile “smugglers” seeking sainthood.
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

User avatar
hermod
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2076
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:52 am

Re: The question of why did many (most) Germans (and others in Nazi controled Europe) not help the Jews

Postby hermod » 4 years 8 months ago (Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:24 pm)

okmatches wrote:The Reichstag's Fire Decree and the Enabling Act, both issued/enacted in the first half of 1933, soon after the Nazi's rise to power in Germany, had created a situation in which, the country became a terror state.


There is life outside democracy, okmatches. Open your lil' obscurantist democratic mind and let the sun shine in. And believe it or not, there are other paths to happiness and freedom than the periodic election of a country's leaders by average idiots. :shock:

The opposite of democracy is not tyranny, oppression and terror. That's just self-promoting democratic propaganda, [Edward] Bernays-style skillful marketing for the 'American way of life'. Such things are in fact more associated with our dear Orwellian democracies...
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

Lysander_Spooner
Member
Member
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:13 am

Re: The question of why did many (most) Germans (and others in Nazi controled Europe) not help the Jews

Postby Lysander_Spooner » 4 years 8 months ago (Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:51 am)

Jews were not too popular throughout Europe. The French have a saying, "What are the three main enemies of the French? Jews, Freemasons and Germans."

As I learn more about Europe under German control/occupation, one thing that consistently impresses me is the tolerance that Europeans had towards their jewish neighbors. Jews were largely untouched in Hungary, a military ally of Germany, until 1944. The Italians never shipped jews to labor camps. I believe it is true that most French jews were not transported out of France.

One should never believe what a jew says happened in Europe during WWII. Probably less that 200,000 of them died between 1933 and 1945. Not one of them was gassed.

User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2690
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: The question of why did many (most) Germans (and others in Nazi controled Europe) not help the Jews

Postby borjastick » 4 years 8 months ago (Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:40 pm)

One should never believe what a jew says happened in Europe during WWII. Probably less that 200,000 of them died between 1933 and 1945. Not one of them was gassed.
- Lysander-Spooner

I agree in principle but I read somewhere, probably here on the Forum, that if you looked at the natural death toll of a group of people of about 11 million over the period of 1933-1945 about 900,000 would have died anyway. This would account for all manner of deaths such as old age, accidents, disease, murder etc etc.

Don't know whether that figure takes account of the war itself and related deaths of combatants.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 3588
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: The question of why did many (most) Germans (and others in Nazi controled Europe) not help the Jews

Postby Hektor » 4 years 8 months ago (Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:07 am)

Welcome to Codoh, OKmatches
Just deriving from propaganda one is fed, doesn't deliver profound knowledge, but distorted memories. To me the usage of the term NAZI is a good hint that someone has fallen for propaganda or is disseminating it.

okmatches wrote:The Reichstag's Fire Decree and the Enabling Act, both issued/enacted in the first half of 1933, soon after the Nazi's rise to power in Germany, had created a situation in which, the country became a terror state. The meaning of it was that, not only political opponents of the regime, but also plain civilians, who were denounced by others for whatever reason, suffer a lot by the authorities.

- There's been a rumor, spread by Marxists and Jews, that the NSDAP themselves laid the fire. It's certain beyond reasonable doubt that they didn't.
- The chaos was the hall mark of Weimar, they didn't start it. It continued during the first month, when the NSDAP took over, erupted again with crushing the Roehm revolt, but overall Germany became far more peaceful under Hitler.
- You realize that those political opponents were Marxists that wanted to destroy Germany via "class struggle" and "dictatorship of the proletariat"? Germans had a good awareness of what happened in the Soviet Union.
- Denouncing others for personal gain was punishable. They didn't have an informer system like the Soviet Union did. Of course the Gestapo followed up on hints, it wasn't a pro-active stance. Just ask yourself how so much treason and resistance was possible during the war.

Here is how a British diplomat viewed it: https://archive.org/details/AllegedPers ... dApril1933
Here some hint on why people saw the Jewish influence as a problem: https://archive.org/details/JewishDomin ... y1919-1932

okmatches wrote:Therefore, even decent Germans, who were not swept by the Nazi propaganda, soon realized that they would personally suffer a major punishment by the regime, had they done anything which was not acceptable by it, especially if helping the Jews.


ehm, the NS-government did do a lot to help Jews themselves. There was a "Reichsvereinigung" for Jews to help them. Of course that usually gets skipped in debates that work with vicious innuendo.
What do you know about the Haavara agreement.

okmatches wrote:Under such circumstances, it is reasonable for most people to, first of all, maintain their day to day lives and make sure they don't "mess" with the dictatorial regime.

Well, finally under Hitler, they were enabled to take care of their lifes again. That was the true reason why people outside the NSDAP were soon won over by the new rulers.

okmatches wrote:I, as a Jewish person, can therefore understand and accept a situation in which a German would be afraid to help me, since he/she knew that had they been caught, they could have been put in jail, sent to a concentration camp, or "disappear".

Any cases from before Britain and France declared the second world war on Germany? Certainly measures against people trying to subvert government measures get a bit harsher during a war, right? Context, my friend, context!

User avatar
torus
Member
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:36 am

Re: The question of why did many (most) Germans (and others in Nazi controled Europe) not help the Jews

Postby torus » 4 years 8 months ago (Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:17 am)

okmatches wrote:
I, as a Jewish person, can therefore understand and accept a situation in which a German would be afraid to help me, since he/she knew that had they been caught, they could have been put in jail, sent to a concentration camp, or "disappear".


Hello. I, as the son of German immigrants, am pleased to tell you that during the war; my mother was treated by a Jewish doctor in a city outside of Berlin. In fact, Dr. Geretski (sp?) had run of the hospital. How is this possible?
How is it possible that a young German schoolgirl heard nothing about the "evil Jews", nor even veiled "anti-Semitism" during this period?


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests