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Moderator wrote:LaxaB:
You have dodged repeatedly here. Our simple guidelines insist that when someone is challenged on a position they must respond or leave the thread that is involved. This prevents the BS factor. Say something, fine ... back it up.
You are not debating in good faith. Please do so, your views are welcomed, but avoidance of the tough questions is not.
Thanks, M1
LazaB wrote:...
.Where did they go ?
"To me, the numbers stated by the SD appeared to be entirely impossible. Individual companies of about 100 men with about 8 vehicles are declared to have killed 10,000 to 12,000 Jews in two or three days. Since, as one will recall, the Jews believed in a resettlement and consequently took their belongings along with them, the SD could not possibly have transported more than twenty or thirty Jews respectively in one truck. For each vehicle, with loading, 10 km of driving, unloading and return, an estimated two hours had to elapse. The Russian winter day is short and there was no night driving. In order to kill 10,000 Jews, at least three weeks would have been necessary.
In one case we were able to check the numbers. The SD claimed to have killed 10,000 Jews in Simferolpol in November and declared the city free of Jews in December. Through a series of counter-tests, we were able to prove that the shooting of Jews in Simferopol had taken place on a single day, namely on November 16. There was only a single SD company in Simferopol. The place for the execution was situated 15 km away from the city. The number of victims could not have been greater than 300, and these 300 were in all probability not only Jews, but a collection of different elements who were under suspicion of belonging to the resistance movement
Paget claims that there are reports in which «about 100 men with about 8 vehicles are declared to have killed 10,000 to 12,000 Jews in two or three days». This was impossible, Paget contends, because transporting the victims to the execution site was a bottleneck that could not be overcome as the special detachments of the SD had too few vehicles and couldn’t fill them to capacity with people because the Jews earmarked for execution took their belongings with them, believing they were to going be resettled.
Paget’s assumption underlying this claim is that the victims were taken with motor vehicles from the cities or towns where they lived to secluded execution sites somewhat further away. This was not necessarily so. At the Babi Yar massacre on 29/30 September 1941, for instance, the over 30,000 victims were marched in a long line to a ravine near the city of Kiev, where they were shot down. At Kharkov in mid-December 1941, about 15,000 Jews were marched to a tractor factory outside the city, at which they were concentrated and near which they were later shot, in the first days of January 1942. In my article Neither the Soviets nor the Poles have found any mass graves with even only a few thousand bodies ..., some evidence regarding this massacre is shown.
For one thing, the Einsatzgruppen, as we shall see in regard to the massacre that will be more closely described later in this article, could count on vehicles made available by the German Wehrmacht, including captured enemy trucks and requisitioned civilian buses, in order to have a transportation capacity adequate to the size and intended time frame of the respective killing operation.
The transport space available could further be stretched by stating a limitation to the amount of belongings that the Jews were allowed to take along for the alleged deportation, or by ordering them to leave behind all their belongings, which allegedly would be delivered to them later. This procedure was applied in killings with gas vans, see Kogon, Langbein, Rückerl et al, Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas, page 91 (quote from the testimony of Ramasan Sabitovich Chugunov, platoon leader of a battalion of local auxiliary police, regarding the liquidation of the Minsk ghetto in Oktober 1943) and page 121 (testimony of Polish railway worker Vladyslav Dabrovski regarding transports to Chelmno extermination camp). As we will see later in this article, it was also applied on at least one occasion when Jews were driven to an out-of-town killing site to be shot there.
As concerns the transport time required, it is hard to understand why a 10 km drive including loading and unloading would take as long as Paget’s «estimated two hours». If the required pressure was applied, fifteen minutes for each loading at the place of concentration, driving (at a speed of merely 40 km/h), unloading and returning seems enough time. So the eight trucks that Paget mentions could, under my above assumptions, transport 400 Jews to the killing site every hour and 2,800 in one assumed winter working day from 9:00 to 16:00 hours. By increasing the number of vehicles through recourse to Wehrmacht stocks and/or requisitions, this number could easily be doubled or tripled.
The larger versions of the gas vans used by the Einsatzgruppen were described by several eyewitnesses as taking in 50, 60 or even more people at a time (Kogon et al, as above, page 87, quote from testimony of gas van driver Erich Gnewuch; page 91, quote from testimony of Chugunov, as above; page 98, reference to testimony of gas van driver Pauly; page 105, reference to testimony of Schiewer, member of Einsatzkommando 11a; page 128, quote from testimony of gas van driver Gustav Laabs, Chelmno; page 141, quote from written report by gas van driver Walter Piller). The measurements of the gassing compartment of one such van were stated to have been the following by gas van driver Burmeister, Chelmno (quote from testimony in Kogon et al, page 125): 4 to 5 meters long, 2.2 meters wide and 2 meters high – a loading area of at least 8.8 square meters, enough to accommodate at least 70 people. So we can assume that, if the trucks used to transport Jews to shooting sites were as big as the huge versions of the gas vans applied at a later stage of the extermination process, each of these trucks could carry at least 50 Jews to the respective shooting site.
As to the tasks of cordoning off the killing site, ordering the victims to undress, leading them to the mass grave or ravine where or into which they were to be shot and shooting them down there, the special detachments of the Einsatzgruppen didn't perform these alone but with the assistance of other forces, such as the order police and the Wehrmacht's Feldgendarmerie (military police) and Geheime Feldpolizei (Secret Field Police). Thus, for instance, the Babi Yar massacre was carried out by Sonderkommando 4a of Einsatzgruppe C in cooperation «with the HQ of EGC and two Kommandos of the police regiment South». According to German historian Wolfram Wette ("Babij Yar 1941", in: Wolfram Wette / Gerd R. Ueberschär (editors), Kriegsverbrechen im 20. Jahrhundert, pages 152-164), Sonderkommando 4a was made up of members of the Sicherheitsdienst and the Sicherheitspolizei (Security Police), one company of a Waffen-SS battalion and one platoon of a police battalion, and reinforced by another two police battalions and units of Ukrainian auxiliary police; the task of supervising and guarding the march of Kiev’s Jews to the ravine in which they were killed was carried out by Wehrmacht troops under the orders of city commandant Eberhard.
To sum it up, if «about 100 men with about 8 vehicles» (Paget) were not sufficient to kill the required number of Jews within the required time frame, additional human and material resources could be obtained to the extent required for achieving the desired result.
The "harsh atonement" began at Simferopol on 9 December 1941, when Sonderkommando 11b and the staff of Einsatzgruppe D wiped out the city's Krimchaks, probably at least 1,500 people. Thereafter the killing stopped for two days because Ohlendorf had to solve a personnel problem: the policemen of the 4th Company of Police Reserve Battalion 9, who had assisted Einsatzgruppe D in its massacres since the beginning of the Russian campaign, were tired of killing and had requested being given another duty. Their request had been granted, and Ohlendorf had to wait for the replacement unit, the 3rd Company of Police Reserve Batallion 3, to arrive at Simferopol.
When 3rd Company of Police Reserve Battalion 3 arrived at Simferopol, there was no time for getting its men used to the killing on a gradual basis. With the assistance of available men from other detachments of Einsatzgruppe D, the policemen of both police battalions and the detached members of FGA 683 and GFP 647, Braune’s Sonderkommando 11b and Ohlendorf’s staff of Einsatzgruppe D continued the execution on 11 December 1941.
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... ionism.php
5) The Einsatzgruppen reports
As proof for the alleged huge slaughter in the occupied Eastern territories, first and foremost are cited the so-called "Ereignismeldungen” (event reports) of the four Einsatzgruppen. These documents cover the period from June 1941 to May 1942 and mention numerous massacres, with victims occasionally numbering in five-digit figures. The "Ereignismeldungen” were supposedly found by the Allies in the Berlin RSHA. That the Germans let this sort of incriminating material fall into the hands of their enemies is strikingly odd.
The alleged slaughter of 33,711 Ukrainian Jews at Babi Yar near Kiev is the most notorious massacre ascribed to the Germans on the Eastern Front. This figure appears in an Einsatzgruppen report from 7 October 1941.26 According to the established version of the facts, these 33,711 Jews were shot and their bodies thrown into the ravine of Babij Yar on 29 September 1941. But the first witnesses told completely different stories: The massacre was perpetrated in a graveyard, or near a graveyard, or in a forest, or in the very city of Kiev, or on the shores of the Dnieper. As to the murder weapons, the early witnesses spoke of rifles, or machine guns, or submachine guns, or hand grenades, or bayonets, or knives; some witnesses claimed that the victims had been put to death via lethal injections whereas others asserted that they had been drowned in the Dnieper, or buried alive, or killed by means of electric current, or squashed by tanks, or driven into minefields, or that their skulls had been crushed with rocks, or that they had been murdered in gas vans.27 Now that is what we call good, solid evidence, is it not, Dr. Lindtner?
When the Red Army approached Kiev, the Germans allegedly dug up the mass graves and burnt the bodies. This work was reportedly finished on 28 September. But two days before, on 26 September, Babi Yar was photographed by a German reconnaissance aircraft. The air photo shows no fires, no open graves and no traces of human activity.28 As a matter of fact, there are some photographs of human remains at Babi Yar, although they do not appear in the file of the Soviet commission. Mattogno has analyzed these photographs. But I do not want to go into details here, so I suggest simply deleting this sentence.
So the report from 7 October 1941, which mentions an imaginary slaughter, is a fraud. This means that all other Einsatzgruppen reports are equally suspect from the beginning.
Air Photo Evidence JOHN CLIVE BALL
4.3. Babi Yar
It is said that after the city of Kyiv was occupied by German troops the Jews of this city were taken to Babi Yar, a ravine at the northwestern edge of the city, near the Jewish cemetery. According to eyewitness accounts, they were shot there, thrown into the ravine, and buried - according to some witness statements, the ravine was also blasted and the bodies buried under the rubble.
In late summer of 1943, when the Front retreated again, the bodies were allegedly exhumed and cremated on gigantic funeral pyres or in pits. These activities allegedly ended on September 28, 1943, when the Kyiv area was already part of the main battle zone.[14]
Illustration 3shows the ravine of Babi Yar in an air photo taken by the Luftwaffe on September 26, 1943.[15] The part of the ravine (near the Jewish cemetery) where the massacre allegedly took place is shown as enlargement in illustration 4.
What we see is in fact a placid and peaceful valley. Neither the topography nor the vegetation has been disrupted by human intervention. There are no access roads for the transport of humans or fuel, no fuel depots, no excavations, no burning sites, and no smoke.
We may conclude with certainty that no part of the Babi Yar ravine was subjected to topographical changes of any magnitude during the war years right up to the Soviet reoccupation of the area. The vegetation in this valley was also not disturbed.[16] Hence, there can have been no mass graves in these locations, and the mass cremations attested to can also not have taken place at this time.
[14] Cf. the chapter by H. Tiedemann, this volume.
[15] Ref. No. GX 3938 SG, exp. 104 and 105.
[16] This statement can be documented with further air photos showing the valley prior to the war and again after Soviet reoccupation: the vegetation in the valley has grown, but nothing else has changed (May 17, 1939: GX 988 - exp. 48, 49; April 18, 1944: GX 4793 SK - exp. 39, 40). Due to space limitations we have dispensed with showing these pictures here, and chosen one instead that shows the location during the time of the attested-to mass exhumation and mass cremation.
Here is the order posted telling all the Kievan jews to assemble in the Russian , ukraine and german languages :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar# ... ijar14.jpg
- Where is the proof that this is an actual German 'order' and not a communist / Zionist creation?"All Yids[a] of the city of Kiev and its vicinity must appear on Monday, September 29, by 8 o'clock in the morning at the corner of Mel'nikova and Dorohozhytska streets (near the Viis'kove cemetery). Bring documents, money and valuables, and also warm clothing, linen, etc. Any Yids[a] who do not follow this order and are found elsewhere will be shot. Any civilians who enter the dwellings left by Yids[a] and appropriate the things in them will be shot."
- Order posted in Kiev in Russian, on or around 26 September 1941.[10]
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