Eric Hunt recants - Aktion Reinhard

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EtienneSC
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Eric Hunt recants - Aktion Reinhard

Postby EtienneSC » 3 years 3 months ago (Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:02 am)

I have some comments on the remarks in Eric Hunt's essay on Mattogno's transit camp thesis on Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec. I am aware that this has been discussed at length elsewhere, particularly in debates around Mattogno, Graf & Kues "Extermination Camps " of "Aktion Reinhard" (2013) and the Holocaust Controversies pdf that gave rise to it.

The Essay
Eric Hunt (EH)'s original article ("The End of the Line") is here:
http://questioningtheholocaust.com/index.php/2017/01/27/the-end-of-the-line/
There is an archived copy here:
http://archive.is/DoGTn

Where did they go?
EH writes:
Of course this [Arthur Butz's book] doesn’t explain Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor, where we know the names of entire Jewish communities shipped to these sites and never seen again...

Holocaust researcher Roberto Muehlenkamp’s offer of a financial reward for proof of one Jew transited to the “Russian East”, stopping at Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor is out there for anyone who can find even one Jew out of the approximately 1.5 million alleged “transited” through Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor that fits the proposed Revisionist “transit camp theory.” This potent challenge is proof of how strong the accepted history is and how phenomenally weak and untenable the Revisionist / denier “transit camp” theory is...

Where did those alleged sent to Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor and then to the “Russian East” go, (ignoring the proof of human remains at these sites as deniers do)? Revisionists / deniers can’t name one of their proposed “survivors”...

I too wanted to run this test, but soon ran into practical difficulties. To test the rival hypotheses, we need to know not just the names of communities sent to/through the AR camps, but (a) names of individual people sent to or through the camps and (b) names of individual people who survived the war and then compare them for matches. The extermination thesis implies that there will be no or hardly any matches, the transit camp hypothesis implies that there will be very many. However, I was informed on skepticsinternational forum by an academic authority that there were no names to back up the famous figure from the Richard Korherr report:
The following numbers were sifted
through the camps in the General
government ............. ........ 1 274 166 Jews
Sources:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=397&sid=20099e789a6331aba123277837798f69
http://www.ns-archiv.de/verfolgung/korherr/korherr-lang.php
http://www.ns-archiv.de/verfolgung/korherr/korherr-kurz.php
So there was no particular name of a person sent to or through the camp to begin a search. There are names of towns at the Treblinka memorial from which people are said to have been sent to Treblinka. So potentially it would be possible to identify Jewish residents of those towns/shtetls and use those - presuming gaps in the evidence could be filled in somehow. I am not aware of anyone (non-revisionist or revisionist) supplying this data. Does anyone disagree? Does this data exist anywhere? There are the Yad Vashem records of presumed holocaust victims, though they can be created by anyone and are not checked. Does anyone think those would be usable?

We would then have to locate records from after the war from places Jews are known to have traveled to. These potentially could include records from post war Displaced Persons Camps, Soviet or other wartime rehousing/billeting records, or post-war immigration records from Israel, countries on the route to Israel, the USA, Canada, Australia, Argentina, etc. There are numerous changes of name in the case of those who went via Ellis Island to the USA and in the case of those who went to Israel and adopted Hebrew names. I agree that this ought to be done, but where are the resources to do it? Do we even know where the relevant archives are and whether they are publicly accessible or digitized?

EH rightly draws attention to this as a problem, for example in the following paragraphs:
As of now, there is zero hard evidence to support the Revisionist “transit camp theory” and all evidence points to mass homicidal gassings and mass murder by shooting having occurred.

I propose logically, there are these three options :

The Revisionist transit camp theory is correct, and miraculous information / data definitively proving it will eventually turn up.
The Revisionist transit camp theory is correct, but information definitively proving it conclusively will never turn up. “Soviets destroyed the train records, etc.”
The Revisionist transit camp theory is not correct, and information proving it therefore cannot manifest. Jews unable to work and others were actually murdered via gas and bullets at the alleged sites.

There is a fourth alternative, namely that people were never sent there (or not in those numbers) and the Korherr report is factually mistaken. The Korherr report was never published or subject to public scrutiny. Otherwise, I agree with this. EH continues:
I have to cross option 1 off the list as 99.9% unlikely, for the same logical reason Roberto Muehlenkamp offered his reward. There should be some evidence somewhere of even one Jewish survivor passing through Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, and arriving in the “Russian East” according to the Nazi code term used, highlighted in German demographer Richard Korherr’s report for Himmler. There should be reports of large camps for these Jews unable to work. There should be witnesses for any of this happening. There would have been documentation throughout German, Polish, and other countries’ systems and infrastructures, train records, etc., not only falling in Soviet hands to destroy.

In dismissing option 1, EH is simply predicting the result of a test that has not (as far as I know) been carried out. This is worthless. As for the existence of large camps, this assumes that Jews would be lodged in dedicated camps. However, many people fled the German advance, so it may have been possible to billet people in abandoned or existing property. There would have to have been records of this if it were to be carried out in an ordered way. Now Jews were deported to German administered regions further west with complaints made about the numbers being sent. Presumably then we know what kind of records might survive. There then needs to be extended by documentary/archival searches further East. The HC team say no such records have been found. Revisionists say that evidence of killing on such a scale is weak. To me this is stalemate.

EH continues:
If number 2 is true, this is not good enough to convince the majority, or critical mass, or any logical people of worth. It’s the “I don’t know where they went but they definitely survived!” answer. If approximately 2 million Jews or more were indeed sent to the “Russian East” all evidence points to them never being in contact with their families ever again. Whether they were (theoretically) later shipped off by Stalin to Siberia or starved after being thrown by the Germans into the area of the Pinsk marshes, or lived secret happy lives in Russia or Israel or elsewhere, for all intents and purposes without any proof of life Revisionists have to show, they are “as good as gassed.” They will forever be “as good as gassed” to the people “Revisionists” are trying to convince. These Jews were last seen in N.S. custody. The N.S. are responsible for their apparent murder / disappearance off the face of the earth. Even if the “missing” individual’s specific bone fragments are not identified at the extermination sites, murder convictions are often made without finding the specific bodies, yet are still just. But despite an attempt to hide the evidence, there still are many bone fragments, ashes, and human remains at the mass murder sites.

This moves slightly away from the main issue in confusing what people might believe from what the evidence shows. It sometimes happens - e.g. when a regiment disbands - that no evidence survives of what happened to people afterwards. The logical person of worth would conclude that they don't know what happened. Being "as good as gassed" is not the same thing as being gassed. Being responsible for an "apparent murder" is not the same as being responsible for a murder.

The comparison with a murder trial is useful common ground. Here we return to the usual questions of establishing death (not yet done), then proceeding to motive, opportunity, murder weapon and testimony. Here Eric's article is too short to add anything new.

The following section of EH's article is confused for our purposes, as he combines discussion of Auschwitz with the AR camps although the level of evidence is radically different. He says however:
No primary N.S. war crimes defendant, at the camps, with personal knowledge easily able to prove the extermination camps were merely transit camps ever gave that alternate explanation. Franzl Stangl, Franz Suchomel, Josef Oberhauser, and other primary defendants could have said, “We routinely transited these Jews here, here, and here, (maybe Lviv, Pinsk, and Vilnius) to the locations listed on the supposed “fake” railway signs, what are you talking about gassing?” This never happened. On the contrary, they accepted guilt and did nothing to protest, not even covertly slipping acquitting testimony to a confidant only to be published after their deaths.

There are answers to these points (duress, etc), but it is certainly a weakness of the revisionist case. EH says:
Along the way those rightfully skeptical of mainstream Holocaust falsehoods often find themselves in a community of Revisionists which proclaim an extreme form of mass murder denial. From Auschwitz to Treblinka to Babi Yar, these Revisionists, often called deniers, genuinely believe Jews were not gassed or shot by the hundreds of thousands.

At this time, I realize I was misled by the extreme “Holocaust deniers.” [...] I now oppose denial of these massacres as destructive and counter-productive to “Revisionism’s” own claimed aims. Which are supposedly to repeal anti-free speech laws, restore nationalism and a positive sense of identity to Germany and the West, and to end the Holocaust-guilt complex which has infected Europeans.

This approaches more general issues, so I will close here. I disagree that revisionism's task is to "repeal anti-free speech laws" or "restore nationalism". There are by-products and motivating factors for some but not all. Such considerations have to be kept separate from questions of truth and falsity on both sides.

My own view is that there is prima facie evidence of atrocities by Nazi Germany - though it is strongest for shootings on and behind the Eastern Front - on a par with those of the Soviets and Western Allies. If the transit camp hypothesis were refuted, it would be a significant condemnation of Nazi Germany. Hence, we ought to support further inquiry into it, once there is a book length revisionist treatment of the Einsatzgruppen, which is scheduled for the end of this year.

EH concludes:
The Revisionist response to “Where did the Jews unable to work go, and alleged “transited to the Russian East” in accordance with German demographer Richard Korherr’s report for Himmler is “I don’t know.”

This is actually the central issue of “The Holocaust denial debate” version 2017.

I see nothing to disagree with there, save that the absence of work on the Einsatzgruppen is equally significant.

(Later in his article, EH presents a brief non-revisionist account of Treblinka, including the early Polish and Sturdy-Colls investigations, which I do not deal with here.)

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Re: Eric Hunt recants - Aktion Reinhard

Postby Werd » 3 years 3 months ago (Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:19 am)

This brings to my mind an old codoh thread.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8170

In particular, some of the shootings on the Eastern front.

viewtopic.php?p=74457#p74457

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Re: Eric Hunt recants - Aktion Reinhard

Postby borjastick » 3 years 3 months ago (Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:30 am)

All very well and good EtienneSC but me being a cynical old Hector I would suggest that any access to data as you describe would be barred if it in any way showed the truth about the jews' mass deportation and not mass murder.

I like to keep things straight and simple, for that is often what real life is like. Show me the remains of hundreds of thousands of people murdered in gas chambers at Treblinka, Auschwitz etc and we have a ball game. The arguments offered by people such as in this case Eric Hunt are weak and arse about face. The old 'you can't prove where they went so they must have been murdered' is total shite.

I spent a couple of hours last night going through the Auschwitz Album on the internet and saw nothing that proves their case that these people were herded into gas chambers within and hour or two of getting off a train. I was left with one overriding thought, that it seems very odd that all these pictures claim to prove the mass murder of jews at Auschwitz but there are no pictures of the showers, hair cutting, uniform hand outs, and of course the gassings themselves. Why not?
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Re: Eric Hunt recants - Aktion Reinhard

Postby hermod » 3 years 3 months ago (Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:47 am)

Such archives were highly centralized. A single Soviet bomb destroyed the entire paper trail about the deportations to (and from) Belzec, orthodox historians concede !! So how many bonfires needed to make an entire paper trail about deportations from Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec vanish without a trace? Only 2 !! As soon as they need to fill some documentary gaps about the Holo-scam and WW2, orthodox historians always claim that the Nazis destroyed their incriminating documents before leaving. But the same orthodox historians never consider the idea that some "liberators" might have destroyed some captured Nazi archives contradicting the core of their own war propaganda. Yet the latter had an interest in doing so. The stakes were enormous. Postulating that the Soviets could find around 100 people testifying to the guilt of the Germans for the Katyn slaughter and that the Soviets were too honest to destroy some inconvenient evidence contradicting their own war propaganda, is gullible beyond anything...

the old railway station in Belzec. All transports with Jews deported to the death camp arrived at this station. Documentation about the transports, notably the transfer telegrams, was also kept in this building,. In July 1944, two weeks before the Soviet army entered Belzec, the railway station was bombed by a single Soviet airplane. A German transport loaded with ammunition was standing in the station and was destroyed. Because of the exploding ammunition, all structures within a radius of about 250 m., including the building of railway station, were completely demolished. It was at this time that the original documentation about the transports was lost.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... cptgs.html


The railway documents were all destroyed on July 4 1944, when a lone Russian bomber dropped one solitary bomb over Belzec which just happened to hit an ammunition train standing in the station. The Belzec railway station was completely destroyed together with all the records.

http://www.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/belzec/bel002.html


Immediately after the war, the various commissions investigating the number of victims murdered in the death camps could only estimate the numbers, which were based on an average of 100 persons to each wagon. If, for example, we take the Kolomyja transport of September 10,1942, we know that 51 freight wagons were made available and that 8,205 victims were counted-off, with so many to a wagon an average of 165. The Bill of Lading says just this, which is corroborated by the security personnel who loaded and escorted the train from Kolomyja to Belzec. The original reports submitted by the escorting security personnel of the Kolomyja transport have survived for scrutiny Even so, apart from this written evidence, we have no other documentation from the railway authorities to verify or corroborate this. To add to the difficulties for any analysis, Belzec railway station was blown up and all records destroyed in July 1944, when a lone Soviet aircraft dropped a single bomb on an ammunition train parked in the railway sidings.

http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/belzec1/bel160.html


“The destruction of the railway station may well be the reason why no railroad documentation of the transports to Belzec has apparently survived.” (The Belzec Death Camp: History, Biographies, Remembrance, p.205, by Chris Webb)


Eric Hunt finds it odd that no revisionist tried or wanted to meet Muehlenkamp's challenge. And he sees a proof of the 'Holocaust' in that. But he sees nothing in the exterminationist refusal or inability to meet the nafcash challenge (http://www.nafcash.com/), even if it has been around for numerous years.

And not so long ago (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/sunda ... cking.html), some orthodox historians have suddenly increased the number of Nazi camps and ghettos to 42,500 (a multiplication by a factor of 6 compared to the previous number !!), but Holohoaxsters keep telling nevertheless that there was no room in Eastern Europe for the confinement of million of uprooted Jews during WW2.

Image
Last edited by hermod on Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eric Hunt recants - Aktion Reinhard

Postby Werd » 3 years 3 months ago (Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:50 am)

The Soviets killed two birds with one stone and they knew what they were doing. Attack German war economy in a way by destroying ammunition, but also any possible records showing they were truly transit camps.

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Re: Eric Hunt recants - Aktion Reinhard

Postby CWhite » 3 years 3 months ago (Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:36 am)

hermod wrote:Eric Hunt finds it odd that no revisionist tried or wanted to meet Muehlenkamp's challenge. And he sees a proof of the 'Holocaust' in that. But he sees nothing in the exterminationist refusal or inability to meet the nafcash challenge ( http://www.nafcash.com/ ), even if it has been around for numerous years.


Hasn't Hunt always been a beggar for money?

Accepting The N.A.F.H. Challenges and earning their offered rewards would be a great opportunity for him to earn some credibility with his new friends and a lot of much needed cash for his new family.

But I suspect he'll do what David Cole did in the same situation, and just pretend the 800 pound gorilla isn't in the room.

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Re: Eric Hunt recants - Aktion Reinhard

Postby CWhite » 3 years 3 months ago (Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:38 am)

It's funny, the best know turncoats - weber, irving, cole/stein and now hunt, were the biggest money beggars I've seen. And yet all of their new found claims, if true, would bring them tens of thousands of dollars from The National Association of Forensic Historians rewards.

Here is the extent that hunt is now begging on his site ( http://questioningtheholocaust.com/inde ... -the-line/ ):

With your help, I hope to continue to expose politically incorrect truth in a much bigger way than ever before.

I can accept donations through the following methods.

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I can accept cheques, please contact me at

[email protected] and I’ll give you more details.

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Please send to the address :

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Patreon :

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Maybe this is all a ploy to get money out of the money lenders?

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Re: Eric Hunt recants - Aktion Reinhard

Postby Hieldner » 3 years 3 months ago (Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:03 pm)

What’s with Old EH’s Treblinka survivor list? Are those Treblinka survivors?
Image
https://web.archive.org/web/20130126123 ... -survivor/
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Re: Eric Hunt recants - Aktion Reinhard

Postby EtienneSC » 3 years 3 months ago (Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:25 am)

This is an initial response from Germar Rudolf on Inconvenient History, with a comment on EH at the end:
http://codoh.com/library/document/4230/?lang=en

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Re: Eric Hunt recants - Aktion Reinhard

Postby EtienneSC » 3 years 3 months ago (Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:28 am)

CWhite wrote:It's funny, the best know turncoats - weber, irving, cole/stein and now hunt, were the biggest money beggars I've seen. And yet all of their new found claims, if true, would bring them tens of thousands of dollars from The National Association of Forensic Historians rewards.

My view is that it's not helpful to describe people who change their minds as "turncoats". It is true that there is generally no money in revisionism. Almost all revisionists have changed their minds and group loyalties do not advance independent scholarship.

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Re: Eric Hunt recants - Aktion Reinhard

Postby Kingfisher » 3 years 3 months ago (Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:56 am)

EtienneSC wrote:
CWhite wrote:It's funny, the best know turncoats - weber, irving, cole/stein and now hunt, were the biggest money beggars I've seen. And yet all of their new found claims, if true, would bring them tens of thousands of dollars from The National Association of Forensic Historians rewards.

My view is that it's not helpful to describe people who change their minds as "turncoats". It is true that there is generally no money in revisionism. Almost all revisionists have changed their minds and group loyalties do not advance independent scholarship.

Very well put EtienneSC. Revisionism should be about promoting independent and objective scholarship, not the defence of entrenched positions.

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Re: Eric Hunt recants - Aktion Reinhard

Postby CWhite » 3 years 3 months ago (Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:06 am)

EtienneSC wrote:
CWhite wrote:It's funny, the best know turncoats - weber, irving, cole/stein and now hunt, were the biggest money beggars I've seen. And yet all of their new found claims, if true, would bring them tens of thousands of dollars from The National Association of Forensic Historians rewards.

My view is that it's not helpful to describe people who change their minds as "turncoats". It is true that there is generally no money in revisionism. Almost all revisionists have changed their minds and group loyalties do not advance independent scholarship.

turn·coat

a person who deserts one party or cause in order to join an opposing one.


Hunt didn't just change his mind - he made a production out of it and went on the offensive, attacking people and making outlandish and easily refuted claims. As the definition explains - Hunt deserted one cause in order to join an opposing one - he didn't just change his mind.
Last edited by CWhite on Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eric Hunt recants - Aktion Reinhard

Postby CWhite » 3 years 3 months ago (Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:13 am)

hermod wrote:
And not so long ago (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/sunda ... cking.html), some orthodox historians have suddenly increased the number of Nazi camps and ghettos to 42,500 (a multiplication by a factor of 6 compared to the previous number !!), but Holohoaxsters keep telling nevertheless that there was no room in Eastern Europe for the confinement of million of uprooted Jews during WW2.

Image


The key word there hermod, is "suddenly." I remember it seemed a strange revelation, coming at a time when the hoaxers were really taking a beating on the "huge mass grave" issue. It seemed to me at the time to be a red herring, and I still have my suspicions.

How many of those 42,500 sites have actually been proven to have been ghettos / camps? How many jews have been proven to have even set foot in those sites? How did they get there?

Anyone?

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Re: Eric Hunt recants - Aktion Reinhard

Postby CWhite » 3 years 3 months ago (Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:14 am)

Compare the alleged extermination sites on this map, looking at a line drawn from Stuttof to Chelmno to Auschwitz, or a line drawn from Stuttoff to Treblinka to Sobibor to Majdanek to Belzec:

Image

with the alleged ghettos shown on this map

Image

Maybe Hunt can answer this question for us:

If "the final solution" was an extermination pogram, and jews weren't killed where they were found because special "extermination centers" were specifically set up to exterminate them, then why was any jew transited beyond a line drawn from Stuttof to Chelmno to Auschwitz, or a line drawn from Stuttoff to Treblinka to Sobibor to Belzec to Janowska?


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