Norbert Masur's report on his talk with Heinrich Himmler 1945

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Norbert Masur's report on his talk with Heinrich Himmler 1945

Postby Hektor » 1 year 8 months ago (Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:19 am)

Here is an excerpt translated into English.
He began to talk immediately and gave a historical overview of the position of the Nazis vs. the Jews. "In our generation we have not known any peace," he said. "When the first World War began, I was 14 years old. The war hardly ended when the civil war began and the Jews were deeply involved in the Spartacus revolt. The Jews were a foreign element in our midst, which always evoked irritation. They were driven out of Germany several times, however they always returned. After coming into power, we wanted to settle this issue once and for all, and I was I favor of a humane solution through emigration. I conferred with American organizations to arrange for a quick emigration, but even countries who claimed to be friendly toward the Jews, did not want to admit Jews."

I countered that possibly it might have been more comfortable for the German people not to have a minority among its midst. However, based on prevailing law, it did not seem right to suddenly exile people whose ancestors had lived in a country for a long time. In spite of this, it was necessary for the Jews to bend to the will of force and they tried to emigrate. The National-Socialists wanted a situation which was created over several centuries, to be changed within a few years, and that was impossible.

Himmler continued: "Then the war brought us into contact with the Jewish masses of the East, who were mostly part of the proletariat. Because of this, many new problems arose. We could not tolerate such an enemy at our backs. The Jewish masses were infected with many diseases, especially typhoid fever. I lost thousands of my SS troops through these diseases. Also the Jews were helping the partisans."

Answering my question as to how the Jews could be helping the partisans, after the Germans concentrated them into large ghettos, he said: "They sent news to the partisans. In addition, they were shooting at our troops in the ghettoes." That was Himmler’s reaction to the heroic fight of the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto! What an unbelievable distortion of the truth!

I tried very carefully to get him away from the unfortunate thought to defend his policies against the Jews in front of a Jew, because such an attempt would force him to add lie upon lie to his argument. But it was impossible to do so. It seemed that he had the need to express his defense to a Jew, as he probably let that the days of his life, or at least the days of his freedom were numbered. And Himmler continued: "In order to stop the epidemic, we were forced to cremate the bodies of the many people that died of the disease. That was the reason we had to build the crematoria, and now, because of this everybody wants to tighten the noose around our neck." This was the most convulsing try by Himmler to cover up his deeds. I loathed this explanation of the crematoria to such an extent that I could only remain silent.

"The war in the East was unbelievable difficult," said Himmler. "We did (not?) to want any wars with Russia. But suddenly we learned that the Russian had 20,000 tanks at that forced us into action. Either we prevailed or we would perish. The war at the eastern front made the most difficult demands on our soldiers. A terrible climate, never ending distances, an enemy population, and constantly appearing partisans. Only by being harsh could the troops prevail. Because of this, they were forced to destroy whole villages, if there was resistance and shooting from such a village. The Russians are not ordinary enemies, we cannot understand their mentality. In the most hopeless situations, they would refuse to capitulate. If, because of these difficulties in the east, the Jewish people suffered great casualties, one needs to remember that the German people also suffered severely."

Himmler then got to the subject of the concentration camps. "The bad reputation of these camps was because of the unfortunate choice of names for them, that was a mistake, we should have called them ‘educational camps’. There were not only Jewish and political prisoners in the camps, but also criminal elements, who were detained after they served their sentence in prison. Because of this, in 1941, a war year, Germany had the lowest crime rate in decades. The prisoners had to perform heavy labor but that was true of the German people too. The treatment in the camps was sever but just." I interrupted: " But one cannot deny that many atrocities occurred in the camps," to which he answered:" I have to admit that this happened, but I then punished the guilty."

Even though during this conversation I constantly had to keep my goal of liberation of Jews and of the prisoners in my mind, and therefore had to choose my words carefully, I was not able to, nor did I want to, contain my agitation, when he talked about the "just treatment" in the contention camps. It was to my satisfaction, in the name of the suffering Jewish people, to tell him a thing or two about the atrocities in the concentration camps. At that moment, I felt that I had the upper hand as the advocate of the bent over, but not destroyed, rights of man. And I believe that Himmler felt the weakness of his positon.

I tried once again to get him off the thoughts of trying to defend this position. "Too many things occurred that cannot be changed or rectified any more," I began. But if in the future we need to build a bridge between our people, then at least the Jews at that are still in the areas occupied by Germany, should remain alive. Therefore we are asking that the Jews in the camps near the Swedish and Swiss borders be freed in order to evacuate them to other counties. Additionally we ask that the Jews in the other camps be treated well, be fed properly that they get the proper medical care and that the camps be surrendered to the Allies without resistance once the front lines got close. Also we ask that the requests mentioned in several lists of the Swedish Foreign ministry be fulfilled and that freedom be given to the prisoners listed by name, be they Swedish, French, Jews, Dutch and a number of Norwegian hostages."

Kersten vigorously supported all requests. I asked Himmler to tell us the number of Jews still alive in the camps and he listed the following figures: Theresienstadt 25,000, Rawensbrück 20,000 Mauthausen 20 to 30,000, in addition to smaller numbers in several other camps. Also he claimed that in the camps captured by the Allies the following numbers of Jews were left: Auschwitz 150,000, Bergen Belsen 50,000, Buchenwald 6,000. It seemed to me that his claims were false, and certainly, with respect to Auschwitz greatly exaggerated.

In Hungary, Himmler claimed to have left 450,000 Jews. "So what were the thanks for this?" he said sanctimoniously. "The Jews shot at our troops in Budapest." I objected: "If there were 450,000 Jews left of the original 850,000 it means that 400,000 Jews were deported to an unknown destiny. The Jews left in Hungary could not know what fate the Germans had in mind for them, and that was the reasons for this kind of reaction." Himmler pushed such arguments aside apparently he appropriated the well-known verse of LaFontaine, "This animal is very bad, when attacked it defends itself" to his own purpose.

Himmler continued on: "It was my intention to turn over the concentration camps without defending them, as I had promised. I turned over Bergen Belsen and Buchenwald, but I got no thanks for this. In Bergen Belsen they tied up a guard and photographed him with a few prisoners who had just died. And such pictures are now being published all over the world press. I also turned over Buchenwald without a struggle. Suddenly the advancing American tanks opened fire, hit the hospital building which consisted of a wooden barrack, and which of course caught on fire, burned down completely and the burned corpses were later photographed. With these kind of pictures the world press is now printing hate propaganda. When I released 2700 Jews into Switzerland yea ths also resulted in a press campaign again me personally. It was written that I only released these people in order to establish an alibi for myself. I do not need an alibi as I only did what I thought was necessary for my people, and I will stand on that. I did not become a rich man. Nobody has been covered with dirt in the newspapers in the last 12 years as much as I have been. It never made any difference to me, even in Germany anybody could write about me whatever they wanted. But the publication of atrocities as incitement against myself does not encourage me to continue my policy to turn over the camps without resistance. That is why, a few days ago, when the American tank columns closed in on a camp in Saxony, I had this camp evacuated. Why should I do anything differently?"

I was afraid that Himmler’s repeated complaints about the publication of the terrible deeds in the concentration camps, which he tried to label as hate propaganda, would result in a request to stop such publicity as compensation in order to fulfill my requests. Without a doubt Himmler believed, after constantly hearing Goebbel’s propaganda, that we Jews really had the power to control the world press, as stated by the Nazi lie propaganda. And maybe he thought that I, as a representative of the Jews, could influence the press of the allied and neutral countries, even though he had been told that I had come as a private citizen.
https://archive.org/details/NorbertMasu ... ichHimmler


Talks between Masur and Himmler must have been around April 20th 1945. Masur's testimony on what Heinrich Himmler said, essentially what Revisionists say:
- According to Himmler Jews were a foreign element in Germany and elsewhere causing trouble, including Communism as movement.
- Jews engaged in partisan warfare and/or supported partisans.
- Jews were deported and interned e.g. in concentration camps.
- Diseases like typhoid fever were rife in an outside the camps.
- Crematoria were to deal with the corpses of those dying from disease.
- Allies used causalities for Atrocity propaganda.
- Some camp staff engaged in inappropriate behavior, but was punished.
- No indication of any extermination program, just physical removal of Jews from the German sphere.



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Re: Norbert Masur's report on his talk with Heinrich Himmler 1945

Postby borjastick » 1 year 8 months ago (Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:18 am)

Hektor, that's an fascinating read and one I have never heard of before save for a couple of comments from it lifted and used here and there. If true it really does summarise the situation very succinctly and fairly. He admits he will be judged on the actions carried out by his commands and that there were mistakes. He also suggests that those who did bad things (atrocities) to jewish inmates did so because of their intense dislike of the jews generally.

Whenever I read about this kind of thing, in any theatre of war or major event I like to put myself in the commenter's position and ask 'what would i have done?'. The hard fact is that though I am not a violent man there are certain situations, people and events that would enrage me and I might strike out. In fact there are several people in my life and surroundings right now who I dislike so much that I avoid them because I know i might lose it. This perhaps explains why some in the SS lashed out and killed jews under their control. As General Patton observed the jew was not an easy type to like.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Norbert Masur's report on his talk with Heinrich Himmler 1945

Postby hermod » 1 year 8 months ago (Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:30 am)

Hektor wrote:Here is an excerpt translated into English.
And Himmler continued: "In order to stop the epidemic, we were forced to cremate the bodies of the many people that died of the disease. That was the reason we had to build the crematoria, and now, because of this everybody wants to tighten the noose around our neck."


Talks between Masur and Himmler must have been around April 20th 1945. Masur's testimony on what Heinrich Himmler said, essentially what Revisionists say:
- According to Himmler Jews were a foreign element in Germany and elsewhere causing trouble, including Communism as movement.
- Jews engaged in partisan warfare and/or supported partisans.
- Jews were deported and interned e.g. in concentration camps.
- Diseases like typhoid fever were rife in an outside the camps.
- Crematoria were to deal with the corpses of those dying from disease.
- Allies used causalities for Atrocity propaganda.
- Some camp staff engaged in inappropriate behavior, but were punished.
- No indication of any extermination program, just physical removal of Jews from the German sphere.


Since the Birkenau crematoria had been a major part of Soviet-Allied atrocity propaganda for about one year (especially after the Vrba-Wetzler 'report' had been published in numerous newspapers, i.e. after November 1944) when Himmler said that, his statement amounts to denying the alleged Nazi homicidal gas chambers themselves. Himmler would of course not have complained that "everybody wants to tighten the noose around our neck" because of the Nazi crematoria if he had really equipped those facilities with huge homicidal gas chambers in Birkenau. Such a statement is nonsensical and even ridiculous in an exterminationist perspective. Can anybody imagine Himmler failing to understand why the Jews wanted to hang him after gassing almost one million of their fellows to death in the Birkenau crematoria? Laughable !! Even a kid would understand why the Jews are furious at him because of such a thing. And Himmler was not a kid.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Norbert Masur's report on his talk with Heinrich Himmler 1945

Postby Depth Charge » 1 year 8 months ago (Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:21 pm)

But suddenly we learned that the Russian had 20,000 tanks at that forced us into action.


An underestimation. The real number was closer to 30,000. And this included thousands of amphibious tanks. An amphibious tank serves only one purpose; offence. Either land on beach heads or establishing bridge heads in areas where the invaded country has dynamited its bridge crossings.

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Re: Norbert Masur's report on his talk with Heinrich Himmler 1945

Postby hermod » 1 year 8 months ago (Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:33 am)

hermod wrote:Since the Birkenau crematoria had been a major part of Soviet-Allied atrocity propaganda for about one year (especially after the Vrba-Wetzler 'report' had been published in numerous newspapers, i.e. after November 1944) when Himmler said that, his statement amounts to denying the alleged Nazi homicidal gas chambers themselves. Himmler would of course not have complained that "everybody wants to tighten the noose around our neck" because of the Nazi crematoria if he had really equipped those facilities with huge homicidal gas chambers in Birkenau. Such a statement is nonsensical and even ridiculous in an exterminationist perspective. Can anybody imagine Himmler failing to understand why the Jews wanted to hang him after gassing almost one million of their fellows to death in the Birkenau crematoria? Laughable !! Even a kid would understand why the Jews are furious at him because of such a thing. And Himmler was not a kid.


Just to support my statement...

Published in March 1944:

Image
https://postimg.org/image/adgf6ve6z/

Image
https://postimg.org/image/c3zg8cvq3/

(Oswiecim = Auschwitz)
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Norbert Masur's report on his talk with Heinrich Himmler 1945

Postby Zulu » 1 year 8 months ago (Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:44 pm)

hermod wrote:
Hektor wrote:Since the Birkenau crematoria had been a major part of Soviet-Allied atrocity propaganda for about one year (especially after the Vrba-Wetzler 'report' had been published in numerous newspapers, i.e. after November 1944) when Himmler said that, his statement amounts to denying the alleged Nazi homicidal gas chambers themselves. Himmler would of course not have complained that "everybody wants to tighten the noose around our neck" because of the Nazi crematoria if he had really equipped those facilities with huge homicidal gas chambers in Birkenau. Such a statement is nonsensical and even ridiculous in an exterminationist perspective. Can anybody imagine Himmler failing to understand why the Jews wanted to hang him after gassing almost one million of their fellows to death in the Birkenau crematoria? Laughable !! Even a kid would understand why the Jews are furious at him because of such a thing. And Himmler was not a kid.

The propaganda by the soviets didn't start after the liberation of Auschwitz. It started soon after the liberation of Majdanek, on July 23, 1944.
That is true that the crematories and some bones, which were left behind almost intact by the Germans, played a major role in that propaganda. That was an unexpected occasion for Stalin to try a big diversion after the published results of the International Commission which was reunited by Germany after the discovering of the Katyn's pits, a year before, in 1943.
At Nuremberg, that "operation of information" allowed the soviets to credit the Majdanek's camp of 1,5 million of victims ranking it immediately after Auschwitz with regard to the number of victims.
That is this kind of propaganda and, above all, the use made to it by the crematories and related remains that can explain why the Germans, while having long time for that, exploded the crematories of Auschwitz and their facilities after taking all material that they could recuperate, refractory bricks included .

VIncent Reynouard made a good video on that topic at


Pourquoi les Allemands ont dynamité les crématoires d'Auschwitz
Why did Germans dynamite Auschwitz's crematories.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3Jg9npm0ck

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Re: Norbert Masur's report on his talk with Heinrich Himmler 1945

Postby Zulu » 1 year 8 months ago (Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:26 pm)

Zulu wrote:The propaganda by the soviets didn't start after the liberation of Auschwitz. It started soon after the liberation of Majdanek, on July 23, 1944.
That is true that the crematories and some bones, which were left behind almost intact by the Germans, played a major role in that propaganda. That was an unexpected occasion for Stalin to try a big diversion after the published results of the International Commission which was reunited by Germany after the discovering of the Katyn's pits, a year before, in 1943.
At Nuremberg, that "operation of information" allowed the soviets to credit the Majdanek's camp of 1,5 million of victims ranking it immediately after Auschwitz with regard to the number of victims.
That is this kind of propaganda and, above all, the use made to it by the crematories and related remains that can explain why the Germans, while having long time for that, exploded the crematories of Auschwitz and their facilities after taking all material that they could recuperate, refractory bricks included .

The wikipedia's article on Majdanek Concentration Camp tells:
Independent Canadian journalist Raymond Arthur Davies, who was based in Moscow and on the payroll of the Canadian Jewish Congress,[*] visited Majdanek on August 28, 1944. The following day he sent a telegram to Saul Hayes, the executive director of the Canadian Jewish Congress. It states: "I do wish [to] stress that Majdanek where one million Jews and half a million others [were] killed"[*] and "You can tell America that at least three million [Polish] Jews [were] killed of whom at least a third were killed in Majdanek"[*] though this estimate was never taken seriously by scholars.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
[*]. Bialystok, Franklin (2002). Delayed Impact: The Holocaust and the Canadian Jewish Community. McGill-Queens. p. 25. ISBN 978-0-7735-2065-3

One can imagine the use made by American Jewish organizations of such "material" all over the world. In such a context, less than 1 year after, Himmler's fear about crematories was perfectly justified. Indirectly, this remark reinforces the explanation made by Reynouard for the preventive destruction of the Birkenau's crematories.

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Re: Norbert Masur's report on his talk with Heinrich Himmler 1945

Postby Hektor » 1 year 8 months ago (Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:01 pm)

Zulu wrote:
hermod wrote:
Hektor wrote:Since the Birkenau crematoria had been a major part of Soviet-Allied atrocity propaganda for about one year (especially after the Vrba-Wetzler 'report' had been published in numerous newspapers, i.e. after November 1944) when Himmler said that, his statement amounts to denying the alleged Nazi homicidal gas chambers themselves. Himmler would of course not have complained that "everybody wants to tighten the noose around our neck" because of the Nazi crematoria if he had really equipped those facilities with huge homicidal gas chambers in Birkenau. Such a statement is nonsensical and even ridiculous in an exterminationist perspective. Can anybody imagine Himmler failing to understand why the Jews wanted to hang him after gassing almost one million of their fellows to death in the Birkenau crematoria? Laughable !! Even a kid would understand why the Jews are furious at him because of such a thing. And Himmler was not a kid.

The propaganda by the soviets didn't start after the liberation of Auschwitz. It started soon after the liberation of Majdanek, on July 23, 1944.
That is true that the crematories and some bones, which were left behind almost intact by the Germans, played a major role in that propaganda. That was an unexpected occasion for Stalin to try a big diversion after the published results of the International Commission which was reunited by Germany after the discovering of the Katyn's pits, a year before, in 1943.
At Nuremberg, that "operation of information" allowed the soviets to credit the Majdanek's camp of 1,5 million of victims ranking it immediately after Auschwitz with regard to the number of victims.
That is this kind of propaganda and, above all, the use made to it by the crematories and related remains that can explain why the Germans, while having long time for that, exploded the crematories of Auschwitz and their facilities after taking all material that they could recuperate, refractory bricks included .
...


I did some newspaper search. Earliest mentioning of Germans/Nazis using gas chambers was in May 1941:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/artic ... by=dateAsc
But neither in concentration camps nor on Jews. Supposedly they gassed "aged and infirm" people:
German priests at a huge hospital in Wurtemburg became suspicious at the enormous mortality of the aged and infirm. They discovered that the Gestapo were poisoning and gassing them wholesale.
The Nazis later adopted the cheaper method of injecting air bubbles into the veins.

That does of course relate to Euthanasia, just in the form of a gross misrepresentation.

Auschwitz and homicidal gas chambers are mentioned June 1943. However it seems as if the gas chambers are attributed to Treblinka and not Auschwitz!
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/artic ... by=dateAsc
Note that this is two month after the Germans announced having found the corpses of Polish officers in Katyn.

If one goes through the search for Nazi gas chambers:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/resul ... rs%22&s=20
It's clear that this story started as pretty obvious propaganda and emerged over time into the mass gassings in Auschwitz. I wonder what Mr. Hunt got to say about this.

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Re: Norbert Masur's report on his talk with Heinrich Himmler 1945

Postby hermod » 1 year 8 months ago (Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:30 am)

Zulu wrote:
hermod wrote:Since the Birkenau crematoria had been a major part of Soviet-Allied atrocity propaganda for about one year (especially after the Vrba-Wetzler 'report' had been published in numerous newspapers, i.e. after November 1944) when Himmler said that, his statement amounts to denying the alleged Nazi homicidal gas chambers themselves. Himmler would of course not have complained that "everybody wants to tighten the noose around our neck" because of the Nazi crematoria if he had really equipped those facilities with huge homicidal gas chambers in Birkenau. Such a statement is nonsensical and even ridiculous in an exterminationist perspective. Can anybody imagine Himmler failing to understand why the Jews wanted to hang him after gassing almost one million of their fellows to death in the Birkenau crematoria? Laughable !! Even a kid would understand why the Jews are furious at him because of such a thing. And Himmler was not a kid.


The propaganda by the soviets didn't start after the liberation of Auschwitz. It started soon after the liberation of Majdanek, on July 23, 1944.


I didn't say that Soviet atrocity propaganda started after the liberation of Auschwitz. I said that the Soviet-Allied atrocity propaganda about crematoria equipped with large homicidal gas chambers started with Birkenau in March 1944 (i.e. about one year before Himmler talked to Norbert Masur) and reached enormous proportions after the release of the Vrba-Wetzler 'report' in November 1944. But it's true that the allegation of mass gassings coupled with fantastic cremations really took off in the summer of 1944, after the Soviet capture of Majdanek and its very graphic atrocity propaganda about cremation (impressive photos of crematory ovens, piles of ashes, charred corpses & high chimneys).
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Norbert Masur's report on his talk with Heinrich Himmler 1945

Postby Hektor » 1 year 8 months ago (Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:04 am)

hermod wrote:...
I didn't say that Soviet atrocity propaganda started after the liberation of Auschwitz. I said that the Soviet-Allied atrocity propaganda about crematoria equipped with large homicidal gas chambers started with Birkenau in March 1944 (i.e. about one year before Himmler talked to Norbert Masur) and reached enormous proportions after the release of the Vrba-Wetzler 'report' in November 1944. But it's true that the allegation of mass gassings coupled with fantastic cremations really took off in the summer of 1944, after the Soviet capture of Majdanek and its very graphic atrocity propaganda about cremation (impressive photos of crematory ovens, piles of ashes, charred corpses & high chimneys).

Atrocity propaganda against Germany immediately started with Adolf Hitler becoming Chancellor. That was accompanied by boycotts and actually prompted a boycott against Jews, which is often cited as how "vicious the Nazis" are. The homicidal gassing theme came up only much later. But there were all kinds of allegations being made about "extermination Jews" by people that were actually in no position to know.

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Re: Norbert Masur's report on his talk with Heinrich Himmler 1945

Postby hermod » 1 year 8 months ago (Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:39 am)

Hektor wrote:
hermod wrote:...
I didn't say that Soviet atrocity propaganda started after the liberation of Auschwitz. I said that the Soviet-Allied atrocity propaganda about crematoria equipped with large homicidal gas chambers started with Birkenau in March 1944 (i.e. about one year before Himmler talked to Norbert Masur) and reached enormous proportions after the release of the Vrba-Wetzler 'report' in November 1944. But it's true that the allegation of mass gassings coupled with fantastic cremations really took off in the summer of 1944, after the Soviet capture of Majdanek and its very graphic atrocity propaganda about cremation (impressive photos of crematory ovens, piles of ashes, charred corpses & high chimneys).

Atrocity propaganda against Germany immediately started with Adolf Hitler becoming Chancellor. That was accompanied by boycotts and actually prompted a boycott against Jews, which is often cited as how "vicious the Nazis" are. The homicidal gassing theme came up only much later. But there were all kinds of allegations being made about "extermination Jews" by people that were actually in no position to know.


True.

viewtopic.php?t=8597

The Zionists coined & spread such atrocity propaganda and led such a worldwide boycott in order to increase the anti-Semitic pressure on Germany's Jews and compel the British authorities to keep the gates of Palestine wide open.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Norbert Masur's report on his talk with Heinrich Himmler 1945

Postby Hektor » 1 year 7 months ago (Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:17 pm)

hermod wrote:True.

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=8597

The Zionists coined & spread such atrocity propaganda and led such a worldwide boycott in order to increase the anti-Semitic pressure on Germany's Jews and compel the British authorities to keep the gates of Palestine wide open.

The British were in the beginning quite reluctant to let Jews into Palestine. That was their argument against offers by the Axis to let Jews leave for example Hungary.
https://archive.org/details/HungarianOf ... WarCabinet

It seems a threat of extermination to Jews, wasn't even a consideration to the British then. Otherwise they would have mentioned it in the document.
Their intelligence services information collection and evaluation arm apparently knew better.

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Re: Norbert Masur's report on his talk with Heinrich Himmler 1945

Postby hermod » 1 year 7 months ago (Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:19 pm)

Hektor wrote:The British were in the beginning quite reluctant to let Jews into Palestine. That was their argument against offers by the Axis to let Jews leave for example Hungary.

https://archive.org/details/HungarianOf ... WarCabinet

It seems a threat of extermination to Jews, wasn't even a consideration to the British then. Otherwise they would have mentioned it in the document. Their intelligence services information collection and evaluation arm apparently knew better.


Good to know Allied atrocity propagandists claimed at that time (August 1944) that Hungarian Jews were being deported to their death. In May 1944, the New York Times had even 'reported' that the Hungarian government was building "gas-chamber 'baths' on Nazi model" in order to exterminate one million Hungarian Jews. As we know, Allied propagandists later opted for the alleged gas chambers in Auschwitz-Birkenau, but it cannot be stated that the British authorities didn't mention the 'Holocaust' in this memo because they were not aware of it. The statement that "the offer might be inspired by Hitler, who would wish to create fundamental difficulties for the Allies in the Near East by allowing an exodus of Jews" is inconsistent with the allegation on Hitler as a bloodthirsty mass murderer wanting to kill all the Jews in his hands and supposedly doing it at that time.

"Gas-Chambers 'Baths' on Nazi Model Reported Prepared by Puppet Regime [...] Premier Doeme Sztojay's puppet Nazi government is completing plans and is about to start the extermination of about 1,000,000 human beings who believed they were safe because they had faith in Hungarian fairness. [...] The Government in Budapest has decreed the creation in different parts of Hungary of "special baths" for Jews. These baths are in reality huge gas chambers arranged for mass murder, like those inaugurated in Poland in 1941." - "Jews in Hungary Fear Annihilation," The New York Times, May 10, 1944.

The dilemma mentioned on the 1st page of this memo - i.e. hostile anti-British public opinion in the United States or civil war in Palestine (and beyond, it was feared) - explains why the Zionists of that time had worked very hard so that "the United States Government are pressing his Majesty's Government." In other words, it gives the main raison d'être of Holocaust atrocity propaganda during the previous months and years, i.e. to induce/compel the British government to adopt a Palestine policy against British interests. The Zionists of that time were working to break the British MacDonald White Paper of May 1939 on Palestine, providing for the establishment of an Arab-dominated state of Palestine in 1949, i.e. killing Zionism once and for all if not cancelled. The 'Holocaust' finally achieved that.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Hektor
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Re: Norbert Masur's report on his talk with Heinrich Himmler 1945

Postby Hektor » 8 months 2 weeks ago (Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:05 am)

hermod wrote:.....
Good to know Allied atrocity propagandists claimed at that time (August 1944) that Hungarian Jews were being deported to their death. In May 1944, the New York Times had even 'reported' that the Hungarian government was building "gas-chamber 'baths' on Nazi model" in order to exterminate one million Hungarian Jews. As we know, Allied propagandists later opted for the alleged gas chambers in Auschwitz-Birkenau, but it cannot be stated that the British authorities didn't mention the 'Holocaust' in this memo because they were not aware of it. The statement that "the offer might be inspired by Hitler, who would wish to create fundamental difficulties for the Allies in the Near East by allowing an exodus of Jews" is inconsistent with the allegation on Hitler as a bloodthirsty mass murderer wanting to kill all the Jews in his hands and supposedly doing it at that time.
Yes, the propaganda of Jews being gassed and extermination, was already spread, prior the document above. Apparently government circle's didn't really believe in it, since they knew what it was.

hermod wrote:"Gas-Chambers 'Baths' on Nazi Model Reported Prepared by Puppet Regime [...] Premier Doeme Sztojay's puppet Nazi government is completing plans and is about to start the extermination of about 1,000,000 human beings who believed they were safe because they had faith in Hungarian fairness. [...] The Government in Budapest has decreed the creation in different parts of Hungary of "special baths" for Jews. These baths are in reality huge gas chambers arranged for mass murder, like those inaugurated in Poland in 1941." - "Jews in Hungary Fear Annihilation," The New York Times, May 10, 1944.
Probably some hygiene facility, which they just re-dubbed into a gas chamber. atrocity propaganda on the one side and spreading fear.... and therefore resistance on the other.

hermod wrote:The dilemma mentioned on the 1st page of this memo - i.e. hostile anti-British public opinion in the United States or civil war in Palestine (and beyond, it was feared) - explains why the Zionists of that time had worked very hard so that "the United States Government are pressing his Majesty's Government." In other words, it gives the main raison d'être of Holocaust atrocity propaganda during the previous months and years, i.e. to induce/compel the British government to adopt a Palestine policy against British interests. The Zionists of that time were working to break the British MacDonald White Paper of May 1939 on Palestine, providing for the establishment of an Arab-dominated state of Palestine in 1949, i.e. killing Zionism once and for all if not cancelled. The 'Holocaust' finally achieved that.

I'd say one can identify several groups with combined interests:
- Zionists needed to scare Jews into migrating to Palestine.
- Allies needed to smear the Axis to rail support for the war effort.
- Later the reeducation agenda was added:
"Early in the re-education of the German people the military government attempted to develop a sense of collective responsibility for results of National Socialism, especially for atrocities in concentration camps. Detailed interviews indicate that, before the Allied occupation, Germans were aware of the existence and function of concentration camps, although they did not know the details or extent. .... During the first months of the occupation, the Psychological Warfare Branch of the United States Army, being charged with the control of public information in Germany, undertook a campaign through Radio Luxembourg, the controlled Germanlanguage press, and special posters and pamphlets to acquaint the German people with the extent and nature of concentration camp atrocities. The development of a sense of collective responsibility was considered a prerequisite to any long-term education of the German people..."
https://archive.org/details/MorrisJanow ... Atrocities


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