Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

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marcom
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Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby marcom » 3 years 3 months ago (Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:50 am)

From the following two letters I don't see how can you deny that special treatment of jews and tubercular poles means killing:

Greiser to Himmler

1 May 1942

"The special treatment (Sonderbehandlung) of about 100,000 Jews in the territory of my district, approved by you in agreement with the Chief of the Reich- Main- Security- Office, SS- Obergruppenfuhrer Heydrich, can be completed within the next 2-3 months.

I ask you for permission to rescue the district immediately after the measures taken against the Jews, from a menace, which is increasing week by week, and use the existing and efficient special commandos for that purpose.

There are about 230,000 people of Polish nationality in my district, who were diagnosed to suffer from TB. The number of persons infected with open Tuberculosis is estimated at about 35,000.

This fact has lead in an increasing frightening measure to the infection of Germans, who came to the Warthegau perfectly healthy. In particular, reports are received with ever increasing effect of German children in danger of infection.

A considerable number of well known leading men, especially of the police, have been infected lately and are not available for the war-effort because of the necessary medical treatment.

The ever increasing risks were also recognised and appreciated by the deputy of the Reich Leader for Public Health Comrade Professor Dr. Blome as well as by the Leader of your X-Raybatallion SS Standartenfuhrer Professor Dr. Hohlfelder.

Though in Germany proper it is not possible to take appropriate draconic steps against this public plague, I think I could take responsibility for my suggestion to have cases of open TB exterminated among the Polish race here in the Warthegau.

Of course only a Pole should be handed over to such an action, who is not only suffering from open tuberculosis, but whose incurability is proved and certified by a public health officer.

Considering the urgency of this project I ask for your approval in principle as soon as possible. This would enable to make the preparations now to get the action against the Poles suffering from open tuberculosis under way, while the action against the Jews is in its closing stages.

Heil Hitler"

(Signature) GREISER

Himmler to Greiser:

"Dear Comrade Greiser:

"I am sorry that I was not able until today to give a definite answer to your letter of 1 May 1942.

"I have no objection to having protectorate people and stateless persons pf Polish origin who live within the territory of the Warthegau and are infected with tuberculosis handed ever for special treatment as you suggest; as long as their disease is incurable...... I would like to request, however, to discuss the individual measures in detail with the Security Police first, in order to assure inconspicuous accomplishment of the task...."

(Signature) H. Himmler

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby Hannover » 3 years 3 months ago (Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:47 pm)

Marcom:

First, please show us the actual "two letters", the German language originals.

Until then all we have is someone's alleged English 'translations' of the alleged two letters we have not been shown. Hardly convincing.

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby Hannover » 3 years 3 months ago (Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:30 pm)

Thanks for trying.

So where in the German language text does it say:
I think I could take responsibility for my suggestion to have cases of open TB exterminated among the Polish race here in the Warthegau."

plus:
I see as part of the 'documents' 'NO-246' & 'N0-244' (typed with same typewriter as the rest of the text) which are Nuremberg classifications. Therefore they are not the originals as I requested.

I also noticed that at the end of the 2nd document it says that it is a "true copy", which also means it is not the original.

So then, as I stated:
all we have is someone's alleged English 'translations' of the alleged two letters we have not been shown. Hardly convincing.

Please show us the actual originals as requested.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby Hektor » 3 years 3 months ago (Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:29 pm)

This is supposedly a photostat of the originals:
http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/docume ... ser%22#p.2

Notably without signatures. Also, wasn't the first May a vacation day in Germany then?

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby Hannover » 3 years 3 months ago (Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:27 am)

Hektor wrote:This is supposedly a photostat of the originals:
http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/docume ... ser%22#p.2

Notably without signatures. Also, wasn't the first May a vacation day in Germany then?

Thanks.
So now we see yet another alleged Nuremberg 'original' that is unsigned.

And I still do not see in the German text anything which translates to :
I think I could take responsibility for my suggestion to have cases of open TB exterminated among the Polish race here in the Warthegau."

It's amateur night once again for Nuremberg 'documents'.

More on 'document' manipulation at Nuremberg by expert Carlos Porter, excerpt from:
Not Guilty at Nuremberg
http://www.cwporter.com/innocent.htm
The documents used in evidence at Nuremberg consisted largely of "photocopies" of "copies". Many of these original documents were written entirely on plain paper without handwritten markings of any kind, by unknown persons. Occasionally, there is an illegible initial or signature of a more or less unknown person certifying the document as a 'true copy'.
Sometimes there are German stamps, sometimes not. Many have been 'found' by the Russians, or 'certified authentic' by Soviet War Crimes Commissions.

Volume XXXIII, a document volume taken at random, contains 20 interrogations or affidavits, 12 photocopies, 5 unsigned copies, 5 original documents with signatures, 4 copies of printed material, 3 mimeographed copies, 3 teletypes, 1 microfilmm copy, 1 copy signed by somebody else and 1 unspecified.

The Hague has few, if any, original documents. The Hague has many original post-war 'affidavits', or sworn statements, the Tribunal Commission transcripts, and much valuable defense material.
They have the 'human soap', which has never been tested, and the 'original human soap recipe' (Document USSR-196), which is a forgery; but apparently no original wartime German documents.
The Hague has negative photostats of these documents, on extremely brittle paper which has been stapled. To photocopy the photostats, the staples are removed. When they are re-stapled more holes are made. Most of these documents have not been photocopied very often, and officials at the Hague say it is very unusual for anyone to ask to see them.

The National Archives in Washington (see Telford Taylor's Use of Captured German and Related Documents, A National Archive Conference) claim that the original documents are in The Hague. The Hague claims the original documents are in the National Archives.

The Stadtarchiv Nürnberg and the Bundesarchiv Koblenz also have no original documents, and both say the original documents are in Washington.
Since the originals are, in most cases, 'copies', there is often no proof that the documents in question ever existed.

Robert Jackson got the trial off to a start by quoting the following forged or otherwise worthless documents: 1947-PS; 1721-PS; 1014-PS; 81-PS; 212-PS; and many others (II 120-142 [141-168]).

1947-PS is a 'copy' of a 'translation' of a letter from General Fritsch to the Baroness von Schutzbar-Milchling. The Baroness later signed an affidavit stating that she never received the letter in question (XXI 381 [420-421]).

The falsified 'letter' from General Fritsch to the Baroness von Schutzbar-Milchling was recognized as such during the trial and is not included in the document volumes, where it should appear at XXVIII 44. Jackson was not, however, admonished by the Tribunal (XXI 380[420]).

The enthusiastic Americans apparently forged 15 of these 'translations', after which the original documents all disappeared (See Taylor, Captured Documents).

1721-PS is a forgery in which an SA man writes a report to himself about how he is carrying out an order which is quoted verbatim in the report. Handwritten markings on pages 2 and 3 are obvious imitations of handwritten markings on page 1 (XXI 137-141[157-161]; 195-198 [219-224]; 425 [470];XXII 147-150 [169-172]. See also Testimony Before the Commission, Fuss, 25 April, and Lucke, 7 May 1946). The National Archives have a positive photostat of 1721-PS, and The Hague has a negative photostat. The 'original' is a photocopy (XXVII 485).

1014-PS is a falsified 'Hitler Speech' written on plain paper by an unknown person. The document bears the heading 'Second Speech' although it is known that Hitler gave only one speech on that date. There are four versions of this speech, 3 of them forgeries: 1014-PS, 798-PS, L-3, and an authentic version, Ra-27 (XVII 406-408[445-447]; XVIII 390-402 [426-439].

The third forgery, Document L-3, bears an FBI laboratory stamp and was never even accepted into evidence (II 286 [320-321]), but 250 copies of it were given to the press as authentic (II 286-293 [320-328]).

This document is quoted by A.J.P. Taylor on page 254 of The Origins of the Second World War (Fawcett Paperbacks, 2nd Edition, with Answer to his Critics) giving his source as German Foreign Policy, Series D vii, No 192 and 193.

L-3 is the source of many statements attributed to Hitler, particularly "who today remembers the fate of the Armenians?" and "our enemies are little worms, I saw them at Munich". 'Hitler' also compares himself to Genghis Khan and says he will exterminate the Poles, and kick Chamberlain in the groin in front of the photographers. The document appears to have been prepared on the same typewriter as many other Nuremberg documents, including the two other versions of the same speech. This typewriter was probably a Martin from the Triumph-Adler-Werke, Nuremberg.

81-PS is a 'certified true copy' of an unsigned letter on plain paper prepared by an unknown person. If authentic, it is the first draft of a letter never sent. This is invariably spoken of as a letter written by Rosenberg, which Rosenberg denied (XI 510-511 [560-561]). The document lacks signature, initial, blank journal number (a bureaucratic marking) and was not found among the papers of the person to whom it was addressed (XVII 612 [664]). 81-PS is a 'photocopy' with a Soviet exhibit number (USSR-353, XXV 156-161).

212-PS was also prepared by an unknown person, entirely on plain paper, without any handwritten markings, date, address, or stamp (III 540 [602], XXV 302-306; see also photocopies of negative photostats from The Hague).

This is, unfortunately, only typical. Document 386-PS, the 'Hossbach Protokoll', Hitler's supposed speech of 5 November 1938, is a certified photocopy of a microfilm copy of a re-typed 'certified true copy' prepared by an American, of a re-typed 'certified true copy' prepared by a German, of unauthenticated handwritten notes by Hossbach, of a speech by Hitler, written from memory 5 days later. This is not the worst document, but one of the best, because we know who made one of the copies. The text of 386-PS has been 'edited' (XLII 228-230).

Thus 'trial by document' works as follows: A, an unknown person, listens to alleged 'oral statements' made by B, and takes notes or prepares a document on the basis of those alleged oral statements. The document is then introduced into evidence, not against A, who made the copy, but against B, C, D, E and a host of other people, although there is nothing to connect them with the document or the alleged statements. It is casually stated as fact that 'B said', or that 'C did', or that 'D and E knew'. This is contrary to the rules of evidence of all civilised countries. Nor are the documents identified by witnesses.

The forgery of original documents was rarely resorted to at Nuremberg, because the documents were not brought to court. The "original document" - that is, the original unsigned "copy" - was kept in a safe in the Document Centre (II 195 [224], 256-258 [289-292]).

Then, 2 "photocopies" of the "copy" (V 21[29]) or 6 photocopies (II 251-253 [284-286]) were prepared and brought to court. All other copies were re-typed on a mimeograph using a stencil (IX 504 [558-559]).

In the transcript, the word "original" is used to mean "photocopy" (II 249-250 [283-284]; XIII 200 [223], 508 [560], 519 [573], XV 43 [53], 169 [189] 171 [191] 327 [359]), to distinguish the photocopies from the mimeograph copies (IV 245-246 [273-274]).

"Translations" of all documents were available from the beginning of the trial (II 159-160[187-189], 191 [219-220], 195 [224], 215 [245], 249-250 [282-283], 277 [312], 415 [458], 437 [482-483]), but the "original" German texts were not available until at least two months later. This applies not just to the trial briefs and indictment, etc. but to ALL DOCUMENTS.

The defense received no documents in German until after January 9, 1946 (V 22-26 [31-35]).

Documents which appear to have been prepared on the same typewriter include Document 3803-PS, a letter from Kaltenbrunner to the Mayor of Vienna, and the cover letter from this same Mayor sending Kaltenbrunner's letter to the Tribunal (XI 345-348 [381-385]). This letter from Kaltenbrunner contains a false geographical term (XIV 416 [458]).

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

"Truth is hate to those who hate the truth."
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby borjastick » 3 years 3 months ago (Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:35 am)

Interestingly a quick check of tuberculosis treatment during the twentieth century on google shows that it was widespread throughout europe and in particular during wartimes.

However knowing that jews never miss an open goal, and a chance to promote the holocaust and their part within its murderous actions I checked the jewish health website for tuberculosis. One would have thought that is tens of thousands of jews suffering from it during the holocaust had been exterminated as suggested by the post author above, they would trumpet such an event. They don't.

In 1943 Selman Waksman discovered a compound that acted against M. tuberculosis, called streptomycin. The compound was first given to a human patient in November 1949 and the patient was cured. Subsequently, it was noted that some patients who received streptomycin improved only to become ill again because the tubercle bacillus had developed resistance to the drug. It was not until the development of additional anti-tuberculosis drugs that truly effective therapy became a reality.


Note that it was a jew who discovered streptomycin and thus if the jews had been put to death by the Germans while suffering from the disease they would have incorporated this into the timeline of the web page story. https://www.nationaljewish.org/conditions/tb/history
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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby hermod » 3 years 3 months ago (Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:49 am)

Hannover wrote:And I still do not see in the German text anything which translates to :
I think I could take responsibility for my suggestion to have cases of open TB exterminated among the Polish race here in the Warthegau."


See the first sentence on the second page, the sentence with the word ausmerzen.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby 97alexk » 3 years 3 months ago (Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:37 am)

hermod wrote:
Hannover wrote:And I still do not see in the German text anything which translates to :
I think I could take responsibility for my suggestion to have cases of open TB exterminated among the Polish race here in the Warthegau."


See the first sentence on the second page, the sentence with the word ausmerzen.



It stands that Tbc should be exteriminated withtin the polish race. Like the plague itself. Also the people that have Tbc and that deemed untreatable by a professional doctor should have had euthanasia help by professionals because they would have died a slow death anyway and they wanted it to stop spreading. Take into account that such diseases like many other back then weren't researched as it is today.

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby Hannover » 3 years 3 months ago (Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:37 am)

Hermod said:
See the first sentence on the second page, the sentence with the word ausmerzen.

Yes, I saw it. However, 'ausmerzen' does not mean 'exterminate'.
It means 'to weed out' or 'eliminate'. Which is exactly what one would try to do to a deadly disease.

Then of course, the 'documents' under discussion are laughably bogus.
Hektor wrote:This is supposedly a photostat of the originals:
http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/docume ... ser%22#p.2

Notably without signatures. Also, wasn't the first May a vacation day in Germany then?

This is not an original either, It's a copy, note the white lettering.
So why don't we see the original?

See my quote above from Carlos Porter on the Nuremberg 'documents' factory.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby Kingfisher » 3 years 3 months ago (Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:50 pm)

OK, so here we have a photocopy of an alleged, but unsigned original, so the authenticity and provenance of these documents is looking very shaky, If I were Greiser I would expect at the very least a signature before I started shooting people, but let's do a thought experiment of assuming they are genuine, then what do they prove?

They prove that a German SS officer asked permission to carry out euthanasia on certified incurable persons, and that Himmler granted this on condition that the persons in question were definitely incurable. Now, no one disputes that Germany had a euthanasia policy for its own citizens, which was abandoned because of public pressure, in particular from the Catholic Church, so nothing is told that we do not already know. Some Revisionists (Graf and Kues??) acknowledge that euthanasia might have been practised on some deportees. This has nothing to do with the Holocaust, which is the alleged genocidal murder of six million Jewish people.

Note I have said this is a thought experiment. I have seen nothing resembling firm evidence that this correspondence ever took place.

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby borjastick » 3 years 3 months ago (Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:59 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:OK, so here we have a photocopy of an alleged, but unsigned original, so the authenticity and provenance of these documents is looking very shaky, If I were Greiser I would expect at the very least a signature before I started shooting people, but let's do a thought experiment of assuming they are genuine, then what do they prove?

They prove that a German SS officer asked permission to carry out euthanasia on certified incurable persons, and that Himmler granted this on condition that the persons in question were definitely incurable. Now, no one disputes that Germany had a euthanasia policy for its own citizens, which was abandoned because of public pressure, in particular from the Catholic Church, so nothing is told that we do not already know. Some Revisionists (Graf and Kues??) acknowledge that euthanasia might have been practised on some deportees. This has nothing to do with the Holocaust, which is the alleged genocidal murder of six million Jewish people.

Note I have said this is a thought experiment. I have seen nothing resembling firm evidence that this correspondence ever took place.


An excellent answer Kingfisher.

But let's presume this action did in fact take place. Where, how, when and where are the many bodies?
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby Hektor » 3 years 3 months ago (Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:11 pm)

Hannover wrote:He.....
Hektor wrote:This is supposedly a photostat of the originals:
http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/docume ... ser%22#p.2

Notably without signatures. Also, wasn't the first May a vacation day in Germany then?

This is not an original either, It's a copy, note the white lettering.
So why don't we see the original?
...
Copy of some unsigned typed paper. Is that really the best they can come up with? Didn't they find a signed original they could use then?!

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby marcom » 3 years 3 months ago (Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:28 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:This has nothing to do with the Holocaust, which is the alleged genocidal murder of six million Jewish people.


But to acknowledge that the special treatment of 100000 jews meant killing them wouldn't be a little thing.

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby hermod » 3 years 3 months ago (Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:41 pm)

Hannover wrote:Hermod said:
See the first sentence on the second page, the sentence with the word ausmerzen.

Yes, I saw it. However, 'ausmerzen' does not mean 'exterminate'.
It means 'to weed out' or 'eliminate'. Which is exactly what one would try to do to a deadly disease.


The letter of course suggested the elimination of the carriers of that disease (i.e. the contagious sick Poles), not directly of the disease itself (i.e. a cure of the sick). But as long as the accusers/exterminationists fail to prove the authenticity of their piece of evidence, this distinction is almost irrelevant. Of any interest only in relation to a document proven to be genuine.

Then of course, the 'documents' under discussion are laughably bogus.
Hektor wrote:This is supposedly a photostat of the originals:
http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/docume ... ser%22#p.2

Notably without signatures. Also, wasn't the first May a vacation day in Germany then?

This is not an original either, It's a copy, note the white lettering.
So why don't we see the original?

See my quote above from Carlos Porter on the Nuremberg 'documents' factory.

- Hannover


I had already seen it. You're right to ask the exterminationists to provide the originals of their documentary 'proofs.' Should have been done a long time ago. Time to get them out of their comfort zone where no real evidence is ever required and provided...
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915


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