another fake "Holocaust" document: '363,211 Jews executed', etc.

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
Breker
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 744
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 5:39 pm
Location: Europa

another fake "Holocaust" document: '363,211 Jews executed', etc.

Postby Breker » 2 years 2 weeks ago (Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:40 pm)

We've seen this document around, there was a brief discussion here, albeit, rather cluttered.
So I'd like to knock this around a bit.

I feel it is fake as can be. Here it is.

Image

It claims, and is promoted as "Holocaust proof" of 363,211 Jews being "executed" by the German einsatzgruppen, the sub-military groups that worked separately from the main combat groups in fighting what are generally referred to as 'partisans', today they are simply called terrorists.

As is noted at this forum repeatedly, execution of these terrorists was perfectly legal under international law as these bandits did not wear uniforms of combatants. The Allies certainly had no restraint in executing such combatants when they were encountered, as did the Axis.
However the numbers indicated in this fake are simply unsupportable, and are clearly contrived as anti German propaganda.

In this claimed "document" there are some very revealing signs that point to it being a blatant fake.

- not official stationary,
- no letterhead
- no file no.
- no signatures
- no indication of typist...standard procedure
- it is cut off at the top and at the bottom
- this is only 'page 2'
- no forensic/physical confirmation via mass graves for huge numbers given; where would such numbers of human remains have disappeared to?
- could have been typed by anyone
- completely unverifiable
- it's never said where and by whom was it discovered

This is an alleged 'document' that was allegedly given to Hitler, but yet it lacks any official characteristics. It is typed willy-nilly on a German typewriter. And there we are, a "Holocaust document"

There is nothing on this piece of paper that indicates it's a real German document.

Opinions?
Thank you, B.
Revisionists are just the messengers, the impossibility of the "Holocaust" narrative is the message.

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 782
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: another fake "Holocaust" document: '363,211 Jews executed', etc.

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:19 am)

I just came across this document in a debate. In case anyone else does, it seems to be discussed in this [older] thread:

fake Einsatzgruppen document
viewtopic.php?t=68

Also see:
Carlo Mottogno - The Einsatzgruppen (5.2. The Himmler Report of 29 December 1942)
https://archive.org/stream/EinsatzgruppenCarloMattogno/

Carlos W. Porter also debunks the document it in these links:
https://www.cwporter.com/no1128.htm
https://www.cwporter.com/letter25.htm

(From the above link "no1228.htm")

CW Porter wrote:Image

Note: "No signature" but "Himmler's initials with handwritten note" -- where is the note?

The "letterhead" is typewritten -- the initials are not Himmler's -- etc.

I know I'll be accused of seeing only what I want to see, but the same must necessarily be true of the Americans as well.

For example: where is there any proof that this is a "report from Himmler to Hitler" at all?

At this rate, anybody who captures a typewriter can "prove" anything.

Oh well, at least they're both "copies", not "copies of copies" or "copies of retyped 'certified true copies' of copies", which is more common.

See
http://www.cwporter.com/mirthvideo.htm

Image

There are 2 "reports" - one in Times New Roman and one on something that looks like Himmler's typewriter, with characteristic type face.
The advantage of "copies" is that they do not need a letterhead or signature.

Image


This is page 1 of "report" in Times New Roman
"Letterhead" is typewritten
These are supposed to be "Himmler's initials" at the top right (the squiggle that looks like an "M". The other stuff is probably a Roman numeral 12 = XII 42).

Image

Page 2 of Times New Roman "report"

Image

Image

Page 4 of Times New Roman "report" with Himmler "initial", upper right, apparently accompanied by the scribbled word "initial", in English! (very faint, probably pencil)
-- or am I imagining things?

Note once again: "200 spades, shovels, and saws", 5 lines from bottom --
also "2 bicycles" (2 lines up) -- !!

I kid you not!

Note: the figure of 363,211 is the total for the 4-month period put together -- almost 91,000 a month.
Yet the SS and Ordnungs-und-Sicherheitspolizei are said to have lost a total of only 174 men killed in combat over the same period
("eigene Verluste, 12 a, gefallen")!
These figures do not impress me as credible.

Unless it was "Juden evakuiert", altered to "Juden executiert" and a few digits added; for example, "Jews evacutated, August", and some much lower figure, for example, "3124", retyped to show "31246"; that would make sense.


Image


Page 5 of Times New Roman "report"
Bearing all this mind, ask yourself:
is the Times New Roman document a rough draft for the Himmler typewriter document?

Image

Page 1 of Himmler typewriter "report" , with yet another ridiculous "initial" or squiggle or whatever at upper right.

Image


Page 2 of Himmler typewriter "report"
By this time it must be obvious that the page numbers at the bottom have been added by the Americans.

Image

Page 3 of Himmler typewriter "report" -- "200 shovels, spades and saws", again, 6 lines from top
"2 bicycles", 4 lines from top

Image

Page 4 of Himmler typewriter "report"
"Typewritten signature" by "Himmler" = "gez. Himmler"
in all its glory

(some real Himmler signatures provided in the link)

Name of document: NO-1128.


From the letter25.htm link:

CW Porter wrote:
READER: Pretty good articles by the way. Revisionists should try to further dissect these Nuremberg documents and trials in detail. G. Rudolf was planning a book on those lines but unfortunately he has been put away.
Do you have any familiarity with document NO-1128? It is a document allegedly from Himmler to Hitler, reporting among other things the execution of more than 360.000 jews in only 4 months! You can see a reproduction of it at Irvings' website
here: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Meldung291242.html
A reader asks on the above webpage if Mr. Irving has seen the document, meaning I suppose, the original document. Unfortunately Mr. Irving, while stating he thinks the document is authentic, doesn't reply in regards to whether
he ever saw the original of it. He indicates the original should be now in file NS19/291, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz.

[ME: It is interesting to note Mr. Irving's exact words:

"As stated in David Irving's biography Hitler's War, the original of the laconic report by Himmler that 363,211 Russian Jews had been executed will be found on US National Archives microfilm T175/124. The original is now in file NS19/291, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz."

When Mr. Irving states that the "original" will be found on "microfilm", it becomes obvious that he simply does not understand what is meant by the word "original". Since the Bundesarchiv Koblenz has NO original Nuremberg Trial documents (they told me so themselves), I doubt that the original is there, either.
I think the document is ridiculous and the more I see of Irving the less I think he can be trusted.
- C.P. Nov. 15, 2007]

Image

Irving's version -- incomplete and much sanitized.

READER: The only revisionist I have seen making any comments in regards to NO-1128 is Mr. Butz in his "Hoax", but only very briefly. He says Himmlers' signature is on an irrelevant p.1 while the execution claim is on p.4. That however seems wrong because the number -2- at the lower right hand, indicates the next page, does it not?

Therefore the execution numbers would be on the first page (which by the way is strange, don't you think?).

Butz's note indicates NMT, vol 13, pp. 269-272 (excerpts only). Would that be a facsimile?

ME: FACSIMILE IN THE SENSE OF PHOTOCOPY, NO -- THEY ARE EDITED AND TYPESET, WITH TYPEWRITTEN SIGNATURES MARKED SIMPLY "SIGNATURE" IN THE TYPESET TEXT.

While Himmlers' signature indeed appears only on a different page,
there seems to be a handwritten signature of a "Werner Grothmann", Himmler's adjutant at the lower right hand of the page detailing the executions.

ME: THERE ARE NO SIGNATURES ANYWHERE ON EITHER OF THE TWO DOCUMENTS.

Image

Image

gez. H. HIMMLER = signed H. HIMMLER
= TYPEWRITTEN SIGNATURE = HIMMLER SIGNED SOMETHING SOMEWHERE BUT WE DON'T HAVE IT

Image

"Executed" page -- note 2 different page numbers

Image

There is no signature anywhere on the document. There are a couple of squiggles at the top of the page.
Which one of these squiggles is supposed to be by Himmler?
This is not what Himmler's "signature" or "initial" looked or looks like.

Image


Note: the figure of 363,211 is the total for the 4-month period put together -- almost 91,000 a month.
Yet the SS and Ordnungs-und-Sicherheitspolizei are said to have lost a total of only 174 men killed in combat over the same period!
These figures do not impress me as credible.

Unless it was "Juden evakuiert", altered to "Juden executiert" and a few digits added; for example, "Jews evacutated, August", and some much lower figure, for example, "3124", retyped to show "31246"; that would make sense.

--

There are other problems. For example, there are 2 different documents -- one prepared on what looks like Himmler's typewriter, and the other prepared on a typewriter with what looks like a Times New Roman typeface.

Question: Is the "Tines New Roman" "report" simply a rough draft for the "Himmler typewriter" "report"?

Nobody knows.

To add to the confusion, there are usually 2 page numbers on each page, one typewritten at the top, one written by hand at the bottom, by the Americans.

Image

Times New Roman version of the "executed page" (item 2c), above.
How strange to list the execution of almost 91,000 Jews a month along with the capture of "200 spades, shovels and saws" (last item on the right)!

Image

Times New Roman report, page 1, above

...


You know, one thing I find very strange about this document and the Einsatzgruppen reports in general, is that one cannot see any "Top Secret" stamps or something of the sort. That seems very weird to me. Plus, as others have mentioned, this No-1128 is supposedly a document that discusses the "Partisanenkrieg" (guerrilla warfare). Why then, mix up Jewish executions in it? The insurgency problem in the USSR was already very serious at the end of 1942, and a report about it to Hitler should have been objective and thorough. I don't know, it just seems strange in the things it reports.
NAME WITHHELD

[ME: As I told you before, the Bundesarchiv Koblenz has NO ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS (at least none for the Nuremberg Trials). They told me so themselves. Why don't you write and ask them? You are right that the -2- should refer to the next page, I hadn't thought of that. The NMT documents reproduced in book form are TYPESET, without even any description of the documents (photocopy, mimeograph, certified true copy, original, etc.) or even any indication of WHETHER THEY WERE SIGNED OR NOT. In other words, the NMT volumes are almost completely worthless. They do not even contain the full transcript: for example, you get a whole series of questions asked by the prosecutor, to which the defendant or witness's answers have simply been deleted! There is no pretense that the witness remained silent; only the questions are considered worthy of interest.

The liquidation of partisans should probably refer to liquidation of partisans, not Jews, although of course the contrary case is quite possible, if the Germans felt that nearly ALL Jews were partisans, which I think would be going too far. One of the Nuremberg defendants, I think it was von Manstein, said there were next to NO JEWS among the partisans. That is probably going too far. In France, the Jews formed 15% of the partisans but were only 1% of the population.

...I think the document has been retyped simply changing the figures; 360,000 is a ridiculous number. Who the hell is going to fill in all those holes? The original could have read 3,000, so a team of Soviet forgers retypes the thing, transfers the signature by photographic means, or by hand (the Soviets had whole government departments that did nothing but forge passports and other documents for about 70 years), and presto!

It's absurd that anything incriminating would not bear a SECRET stamp. Either the document was not considered incriminating, or it is a fake. Of course the shooting of 3,000 partisans would not be considered incriminating.

It is very easy to alter an existing document but fairly difficult to fake an original out of whole cloth, i.e., without a model to copy.

...I don't think that that is the first page of the document. It is obviously the second page. Yet the -2-, as you say, would normally refer to the following page, i.e, this should be the first page; but it seems strange. More riddles. Anyway, the figures are absurd. It's like all these documents saying the Germans cremated 10,000 or 20,000 bodies a day, or something. The document has to be forged, because what it describes is impossible.

The page numbers at the bottom were obviously added by the Americans. It seems silly to write all over the evidence, but they did.

Maybe somebody found a document that looked like this, but said "Juden evakuiert". They retype it, substituting "Juden executiert", and voilà.
CARLOS]

READER: I had not thought of that, it is certainly a possibility. I intend to write to the archives, as you suggested. When I do I'll let you know the answer.
NAME WITHHELD



Seems to be that CW Porter suggests that they may have simply changed "Juden evakuiert" to "Juden executiert" and possibly some other minor alterations, like on the numbers of JEws.

Also see the thread:
The Soviet Union's documented use of document forgeries, Active Measures
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12297

Where it is explained (from a US government report) how Soviet forgeries are usually made with "subtle alterations of official publications" or "altered versions of actual documents".

It's certainly another crude fake
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2456
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: another fake "Holocaust" document: '363,211 Jews executed', etc.

Postby borjastick » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:17 am)

It's all too much for a man before breakfast Lamprecht.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 782
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: another fake "Holocaust" document: '363,211 Jews executed', etc.

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:05 pm)

[ Summary ]

It is an alleged report from Himmler to Hitler, on anti-partisan warfare, dated 29 December 1942. It can be referred to as "Meldung Nr. 51" (Rapport Nr. 51) or document NO-1128. In one place in this report, there is a claim that 363,211 Jews were killed in August-November 1942.


- There are no "Top Secret" stamps whatsoever, despite something so incriminating

- There is only a "typewritten" signature, meaning someone typed 'H. Himmler'. There are some scribbles at the top right that are not Himmler's signature, which would have been the easiest to forge.

- The document is supposedly about "Partisanenkrieg" (guerrilla warfare) so why even mention Jewish executions? It also mentions the capture of "200 spades, shovels and saws" on the same page as hundreds of thousands of murdered jews

- There are two documents, they are both "Copies". One is prepared on what looks similar to Himmler's typewriter, and the other with a typewriting using typeface like "Times New Roman" (suggesting Anglo/American)

- There are usually 2 page numbers on each page, with one typed and another written at the bottom by Americans (not sure why)

- The claim is that 363,211 Jews were killed in 4 months, or 91,000 per month, or 3,000 per day. Yet the SS and Ordnungs-und-Sicherheitspolizei are said to have lost a total of only 174 men killed in combat over the same period. It seems incredible

- Porter suggests maybe "Juden evakuiert" was altered to "Juden executiert" and/or a few digits added to inflate the number. Most forgeries are actually legitimate documents with very minor changes (see above links)
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

Rogal Dorn
Member
Member
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: another fake "Holocaust" document: '363,211 Jews executed', etc.

Postby Rogal Dorn » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:57 pm)

If this document was presented at the Nuremberg trials (and that's what No-1128 suggests), discussion about it should be available in the court transcription, correct? Perhaps that could shed more light as to how this document was presented and how accusations were made by the IMT...

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 782
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: another fake "Holocaust" document: '363,211 Jews executed', etc.

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:12 pm)

Rogal Dorn wrote:If this document was presented at the Nuremberg trials (and that's what No-1128 suggests), discussion about it should be available in the court transcription, correct? Perhaps that could shed more light as to how this document was presented and how accusations were made by the IMT...


It is on page 269: https://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law ... l-XIII.pdf

There is also this image from CW Porter:
Image

I do not see much of a discussion about it, there may be one somewhere else. The document is alleged to be from Himmler to Hitler, who were both deceased at the time of the trial. So there's no possibility of "Did you view this document?" and I am not quite sure about the source of the document either. Who supposedly found it, and where? I can't find this information.

David Irving said:
"It's a document that raises my eyebrows. It's a document I am unhappy about because it -- it is so -- it's a rare document. It pokes out above the clouds of the other archives like Mount Kilimanjaro. You wonder what it's doing there. If you work in the archives, you're familiar with documents and you're familiar with statistics and tables and suddenly you come across this document which is the only one of its kind containing this kind of statistics. [...] and to have that item, 'c) Jews executed', inserted there almost as an afterthought, a figure that is twenty or thirty times as large as any other figure on the page." (Source: http://www.ihr.org/books/kulaszka/35irving.html)


Seems to be nothing but a crude forgery.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests