Veronica Clark drops the ball.

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Elroy
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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball.

Postby Elroy » 8 months 3 weeks ago (Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:35 pm)

Hannover wrote:Elroy:

Thanks for your comments.
Not sure what the "liars" forum is.

Regardless, have a look at:
'Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 1939'
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7525

Merry Christmas, Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.


Hello Hannover;

To recap there are 2 TWO points of contention here from the National Socialists...

(a) Polish persecutions and murders of German minorities BEFORE Sep 1st as a causative factor for the Hitlerite invasion...
(b) The mass deportation of German civilians to Polish concentration camps prior to WW2

Collectively what we might call WW2 causative polish "atrocities" prior to Sep 1st.

Now the thread you linked was a back and forth argument between yourself and another poster "Toshiro"..

In it you linked multiple sources which seemed to be Nazi sources and books written referencing such sources.

It's a case of they say, they deny.

I don't think there'll be any "hard" evidence either way to be honest.

I'm obviously of the camp there WAS serious persecutions and it did factor as a reason but so far have to refrain from making "strong" assertions because I haven't seen anyhthing to that effect yet which "proves" it.

I think a concentrated massing of the available evidence soft as it may be should be put together here- with correspondences from allied sources which seem to confirm as well which I will help to drag up myself...



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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball.

Postby Hannover » 8 months 3 weeks ago (Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:57 pm)

Elroy, these are not 'Nazi' sources.

From that thread:
Hannover wrote:This is informative:
.”under Polish pressure the Germans in the southern and eastern districts were subjected to oppressive treatment. On Aug. 19 1920 the Poles felt strong enough, indeed, to make an attempt to seize the country by force. On all sides bands of Poles, chiefly recruited from Congress Poland, usurped authority. A number of Germans were forcibly carried across the frontier into Poland, and many were killed. Several weeks elapsed before it was possible to quell this rising and restore order…It had been suggested by the Entente that non-resident Upper Silesians of the German Reich should vote outside Silesia, at Cologne. Germany protested against this, and her protest was recognized as valid by the Entente. In January 1921 the date of the plebiscite was fixed for March 20 1921.
An immediate revival took place in the use of terrorism by the Poles, especially in the districts of Rybnik, Pless, Kattowitz, and Beuthen. It reached its climax in the days preceding the plebiscite. Voters from other parts of the German Reich were frequently refused admission to the polls; sometimes they were maltreated and even in some instances murdered; and houses where outvoters were staying were set on fire… The day after the plebiscite the Polish excesses recommenced, and from that date onwards continued without interruption… Practically all the towns voted for Germany… the first days of May witnessed a new Polish insurrection which assumed far greater proportions than the former one. Korfanty had secretly raised a well-organized Polish force which was provided with arms and munition from across the border, and was reinforced by large bodies of men from Poland…
By June 20 the British troops had again occupied the larger towns, while the Poles had the upper hand in the rural districts. As a result of the difficulties in paying his men and providing them with food Korfanty now lost control over his followers. Independent bands were formed which plundered the villages, ill-treated the Germans, and murdered many of them.”

- 1922 Encyclopaedia Britannica, “SILESIA, UPPER”


This article appeared in the Polish newspaper Die Liga der Grossmacht in October, 1930:
A struggle between Poland and Germany is inevitable. We must prepare ourselves for it systematically. Our goal is a new Battle of Tannenberg. However, this time, a Tannenberg in the suburbs of Berlin. Prussia must be reconquered for Poland, and Prussia, indeed, as far as the River Spree. In a war with Germany there will be no prisoners…

“Tannenberg” refers to the Battle of Tannenberg in 1410 when a Polish army defeated the German Teutonic Knights. The article is full of many more anti-German remarks.

Also, Von Ribbentrop defended the attack of Poland by stating that between 1919-1939, one million Germans had been expelled from Polish territory accompanied by numerous atrocities, and that complaints to the World Court in The Hague and the League of Nations in Geneva had been ignored.
IOW, the World Court did not find the accusations of Polish atrocities to be bogus.

further reading:
the book: "Dokumente polnischer Grausamkeiten. Verbrechen an Deutschen 1919-1939 nach amtlichen Quellen" (Documentations of Polish Cruelties. Crimes Against Germans 1919-1939 According to Official Sources).
https://www.amazon.com/Dokumente-Polnis ... 3887411781

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- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball.

Postby Elroy » 8 months 3 weeks ago (Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:45 pm)

Hannover wrote:Elroy, these are not 'Nazi' sources.

From that thread:
Hannover wrote:This is informative:
.”under Polish pressure the Germans in the southern and eastern districts were subjected to oppressive treatment. On Aug. 19 1920 the Poles felt strong enough, indeed, to make an attempt to seize the country by force. On all sides bands of Poles, chiefly recruited from Congress Poland, usurped authority. A number of Germans were forcibly carried across the frontier into Poland, and many were killed. Several weeks elapsed before it was possible to quell this rising and restore order…It had been suggested by the Entente that non-resident Upper Silesians of the German Reich should vote outside Silesia, at Cologne. Germany protested against this, and her protest was recognized as valid by the Entente. In January 1921 the date of the plebiscite was fixed for March 20 1921.
An immediate revival took place in the use of terrorism by the Poles, especially in the districts of Rybnik, Pless, Kattowitz, and Beuthen. It reached its climax in the days preceding the plebiscite. Voters from other parts of the German Reich were frequently refused admission to the polls; sometimes they were maltreated and even in some instances murdered; and houses where outvoters were staying were set on fire… The day after the plebiscite the Polish excesses recommenced, and from that date onwards continued without interruption… Practically all the towns voted for Germany… the first days of May witnessed a new Polish insurrection which assumed far greater proportions than the former one. Korfanty had secretly raised a well-organized Polish force which was provided with arms and munition from across the border, and was reinforced by large bodies of men from Poland…
By June 20 the British troops had again occupied the larger towns, while the Poles had the upper hand in the rural districts. As a result of the difficulties in paying his men and providing them with food Korfanty now lost control over his followers. Independent bands were formed which plundered the villages, ill-treated the Germans, and murdered many of them.”

- 1922 Encyclopaedia Britannica, “SILESIA, UPPER”


This article appeared in the Polish newspaper Die Liga der Grossmacht in October, 1930:
A struggle between Poland and Germany is inevitable. We must prepare ourselves for it systematically. Our goal is a new Battle of Tannenberg. However, this time, a Tannenberg in the suburbs of Berlin. Prussia must be reconquered for Poland, and Prussia, indeed, as far as the River Spree. In a war with Germany there will be no prisoners…

“Tannenberg” refers to the Battle of Tannenberg in 1410 when a Polish army defeated the German Teutonic Knights. The article is full of many more anti-German remarks.

Also, Von Ribbentrop defended the attack of Poland by stating that between 1919-1939, one million Germans had been expelled from Polish territory accompanied by numerous atrocities, and that complaints to the World Court in The Hague and the League of Nations in Geneva had been ignored.
IOW, the World Court did not find the accusations of Polish atrocities to be bogus.

further reading:
the book: "Dokumente polnischer Grausamkeiten. Verbrechen an Deutschen 1919-1939 nach amtlichen Quellen" (Documentations of Polish Cruelties. Crimes Against Germans 1919-1939 According to Official Sources).
https://www.amazon.com/Dokumente-Polnis ... 3887411781

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- Hannover


Yes I think the following facts are well established beyond any possibility of refute...

1. The consistent ill-treatment of the German's by the Poles from WW1's end to WW2 generally.
2. In the months and weeks prior to Sep 1st 1939 there was "allied" and "neutral" correspondence which seems to believe in Polish atrocities.
3. German correspondence to allied leaders shows a genuine concern over said atrocities
4. The documentary analysis of all the powers shows clearly the allied agitation and push for war and Hitler and the National Socialists doing everything they can to avoid war- whilst still reaching a solution to the corridor and Danzig problems via very reasonable proposals
5. Last minute anti-war German attempts
6. The aggressive behaviour and near imperialistic ambition of Poland itself as evidenced by their own seizure of territory.

Igonoring alleged incursions such as Gleiwitz and firings on passenger airline allegations and alleged maps/plans to conquer parts of Germany (could be subject of another thread)..

The general picture from 1919-1939 is an important thing to paint a picture for certain but very specifically I feel we need to confine ourselves from March 1939- end of Aug 1939. I.e. during the actual playing out of the Polish question from a viewpoint of Hitler's proposal of the extraterritorial rail and road link which led to the international crisis, preyed upon by the allies.

Hannover- I have no "doubt" about the reality which I think is shown by the overall picture and overall evidence- that Hitler did not want war at all, the very idea in fact is totally preposterous! He wanted the reversal of versailles and the unification of the German people beyond any real question. Immediately backed up by the fact after beating Poland he offered to "clear" Poland- sans the former German parts- not the actions of someone bent on the "commonly" held view of "lebensraum" at all.

I just find so far that the evidence for the polish atrocities from Mar to Aug all inclusive 1939 is FAR from dubious to be sure, but referenced only by Nazi sources and somewhat otherwise by non-German sphere statesmen in correspondence who apparently believed there were also.

The counter to this is based in a situation which otherwise indicates their proposal that the atrocities were fake to be false- but the fact that no stronger evidence can really be shown any better than their own citing of false flaggery by Hitler by virtue of the fact nothing much can be produced otherwise cannot simply be dismissed.

I call it "party testimony" vs "party testimony"

But I'm not properly read on the matter yet. However I feel that IF more properly read people did have something more specific (such as yourself)- then you would certainly produce it.

As an aside other matters which have concerned me are...

- Allegations of Poles moving German's to concentration camps (again from Mar to late Aug 39)
- Allegations of Poles opening fire on civilian German airlines
- Gleiwitz incident and other incursions and firings on Germany close to official allied claimed outbreak of war
- The official statement of Emil Hacha's daughter allegedly claiming "her father willingly and w/o force made Czechoslovakia a protectorate- for which I can find no other evidence of this statement other than in Hoggan's book- which is suspiciously unreferenced.


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