Veronica Clark drops the ball / Polish atrocities against Germans

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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball / Polish atrocities against Germans

Postby Elroy » 1 year 6 months ago (Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:35 pm)

Hannover wrote:Elroy:

Thanks for your comments.
Not sure what the "liars" forum is.

Regardless, have a look at:
'Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 1939'
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7525

Merry Christmas, Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.


Hello Hannover;

To recap there are 2 TWO points of contention here from the National Socialists...

(a) Polish persecutions and murders of German minorities BEFORE Sep 1st as a causative factor for the Hitlerite invasion...
(b) The mass deportation of German civilians to Polish concentration camps prior to WW2

Collectively what we might call WW2 causative polish "atrocities" prior to Sep 1st.

Now the thread you linked was a back and forth argument between yourself and another poster "Toshiro"..

In it you linked multiple sources which seemed to be Nazi sources and books written referencing such sources.

It's a case of they say, they deny.

I don't think there'll be any "hard" evidence either way to be honest.

I'm obviously of the camp there WAS serious persecutions and it did factor as a reason but so far have to refrain from making "strong" assertions because I haven't seen anyhthing to that effect yet which "proves" it.

I think a concentrated massing of the available evidence soft as it may be should be put together here- with correspondences from allied sources which seem to confirm as well which I will help to drag up myself...

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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball / Polish atrocities against Germans

Postby Hannover » 1 year 6 months ago (Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:57 pm)

Elroy, these are not "Nazi sources".

From that thread:
Hannover wrote:This is informative:
.”under Polish pressure the Germans in the southern and eastern districts were subjected to oppressive treatment. On Aug. 19 1920 the Poles felt strong enough, indeed, to make an attempt to seize the country by force. On all sides bands of Poles, chiefly recruited from Congress Poland, usurped authority. A number of Germans were forcibly carried across the frontier into Poland, and many were killed. Several weeks elapsed before it was possible to quell this rising and restore order…It had been suggested by the Entente that non-resident Upper Silesians of the German Reich should vote outside Silesia, at Cologne. Germany protested against this, and her protest was recognized as valid by the Entente. In January 1921 the date of the plebiscite was fixed for March 20 1921.
An immediate revival took place in the use of terrorism by the Poles, especially in the districts of Rybnik, Pless, Kattowitz, and Beuthen. It reached its climax in the days preceding the plebiscite. Voters from other parts of the German Reich were frequently refused admission to the polls; sometimes they were maltreated and even in some instances murdered; and houses where outvoters were staying were set on fire… The day after the plebiscite the Polish excesses recommenced, and from that date onwards continued without interruption… Practically all the towns voted for Germany… the first days of May witnessed a new Polish insurrection which assumed far greater proportions than the former one. Korfanty had secretly raised a well-organized Polish force which was provided with arms and munition from across the border, and was reinforced by large bodies of men from Poland…
By June 20 the British troops had again occupied the larger towns, while the Poles had the upper hand in the rural districts. As a result of the difficulties in paying his men and providing them with food Korfanty now lost control over his followers. Independent bands were formed which plundered the villages, ill-treated the Germans, and murdered many of them.”

- 1922 Encyclopaedia Britannica, “SILESIA, UPPER”


This article appeared in the Polish newspaper Die Liga der Grossmacht in October, 1930:
A struggle between Poland and Germany is inevitable. We must prepare ourselves for it systematically. Our goal is a new Battle of Tannenberg. However, this time, a Tannenberg in the suburbs of Berlin. Prussia must be reconquered for Poland, and Prussia, indeed, as far as the River Spree. In a war with Germany there will be no prisoners…

“Tannenberg” refers to the Battle of Tannenberg in 1410 when a Polish army defeated the German Teutonic Knights. The article is full of many more anti-German remarks.

Also, Von Ribbentrop defended the attack of Poland by stating that between 1919-1939, one million Germans had been expelled from Polish territory accompanied by numerous atrocities, and that complaints to the World Court in The Hague and the League of Nations in Geneva had been ignored.
IOW, the World Court did not find the accusations of Polish atrocities to be bogus.

further reading:
the book: "Dokumente polnischer Grausamkeiten. Verbrechen an Deutschen 1919-1939 nach amtlichen Quellen" (Documentations of Polish Cruelties. Crimes Against Germans 1919-1939 According to Official Sources).
https://www.amazon.com/Dokumente-Polnis ... 3887411781

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- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball / Polish atrocities against Germans

Postby Elroy » 1 year 6 months ago (Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:45 pm)

Hannover wrote:Elroy, these are not 'Nazi' sources.

From that thread:
Hannover wrote:This is informative:
.”under Polish pressure the Germans in the southern and eastern districts were subjected to oppressive treatment. On Aug. 19 1920 the Poles felt strong enough, indeed, to make an attempt to seize the country by force. On all sides bands of Poles, chiefly recruited from Congress Poland, usurped authority. A number of Germans were forcibly carried across the frontier into Poland, and many were killed. Several weeks elapsed before it was possible to quell this rising and restore order…It had been suggested by the Entente that non-resident Upper Silesians of the German Reich should vote outside Silesia, at Cologne. Germany protested against this, and her protest was recognized as valid by the Entente. In January 1921 the date of the plebiscite was fixed for March 20 1921.
An immediate revival took place in the use of terrorism by the Poles, especially in the districts of Rybnik, Pless, Kattowitz, and Beuthen. It reached its climax in the days preceding the plebiscite. Voters from other parts of the German Reich were frequently refused admission to the polls; sometimes they were maltreated and even in some instances murdered; and houses where outvoters were staying were set on fire… The day after the plebiscite the Polish excesses recommenced, and from that date onwards continued without interruption… Practically all the towns voted for Germany… the first days of May witnessed a new Polish insurrection which assumed far greater proportions than the former one. Korfanty had secretly raised a well-organized Polish force which was provided with arms and munition from across the border, and was reinforced by large bodies of men from Poland…
By June 20 the British troops had again occupied the larger towns, while the Poles had the upper hand in the rural districts. As a result of the difficulties in paying his men and providing them with food Korfanty now lost control over his followers. Independent bands were formed which plundered the villages, ill-treated the Germans, and murdered many of them.”

- 1922 Encyclopaedia Britannica, “SILESIA, UPPER”


This article appeared in the Polish newspaper Die Liga der Grossmacht in October, 1930:
A struggle between Poland and Germany is inevitable. We must prepare ourselves for it systematically. Our goal is a new Battle of Tannenberg. However, this time, a Tannenberg in the suburbs of Berlin. Prussia must be reconquered for Poland, and Prussia, indeed, as far as the River Spree. In a war with Germany there will be no prisoners…

“Tannenberg” refers to the Battle of Tannenberg in 1410 when a Polish army defeated the German Teutonic Knights. The article is full of many more anti-German remarks.

Also, Von Ribbentrop defended the attack of Poland by stating that between 1919-1939, one million Germans had been expelled from Polish territory accompanied by numerous atrocities, and that complaints to the World Court in The Hague and the League of Nations in Geneva had been ignored.
IOW, the World Court did not find the accusations of Polish atrocities to be bogus.

further reading:
the book: "Dokumente polnischer Grausamkeiten. Verbrechen an Deutschen 1919-1939 nach amtlichen Quellen" (Documentations of Polish Cruelties. Crimes Against Germans 1919-1939 According to Official Sources).
https://www.amazon.com/Dokumente-Polnis ... 3887411781

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- Hannover


Yes I think the following facts are well established beyond any possibility of refute...

1. The consistent ill-treatment of the German's by the Poles from WW1's end to WW2 generally.
2. In the months and weeks prior to Sep 1st 1939 there was "allied" and "neutral" correspondence which seems to believe in Polish atrocities.
3. German correspondence to allied leaders shows a genuine concern over said atrocities
4. The documentary analysis of all the powers shows clearly the allied agitation and push for war and Hitler and the National Socialists doing everything they can to avoid war- whilst still reaching a solution to the corridor and Danzig problems via very reasonable proposals
5. Last minute anti-war German attempts
6. The aggressive behaviour and near imperialistic ambition of Poland itself as evidenced by their own seizure of territory.

Igonoring alleged incursions such as Gleiwitz and firings on passenger airline allegations and alleged maps/plans to conquer parts of Germany (could be subject of another thread)..

The general picture from 1919-1939 is an important thing to paint a picture for certain but very specifically I feel we need to confine ourselves from March 1939- end of Aug 1939. I.e. during the actual playing out of the Polish question from a viewpoint of Hitler's proposal of the extraterritorial rail and road link which led to the international crisis, preyed upon by the allies.

Hannover- I have no "doubt" about the reality which I think is shown by the overall picture and overall evidence- that Hitler did not want war at all, the very idea in fact is totally preposterous! He wanted the reversal of versailles and the unification of the German people beyond any real question. Immediately backed up by the fact after beating Poland he offered to "clear" Poland- sans the former German parts- not the actions of someone bent on the "commonly" held view of "lebensraum" at all.

I just find so far that the evidence for the polish atrocities from Mar to Aug all inclusive 1939 is FAR from dubious to be sure, but referenced only by Nazi sources and somewhat otherwise by non-German sphere statesmen in correspondence who apparently believed there were also.

The counter to this is based in a situation which otherwise indicates their proposal that the atrocities were fake to be false- but the fact that no stronger evidence can really be shown any better than their own citing of false flaggery by Hitler by virtue of the fact nothing much can be produced otherwise cannot simply be dismissed.

I call it "party testimony" vs "party testimony"

But I'm not properly read on the matter yet. However I feel that IF more properly read people did have something more specific (such as yourself)- then you would certainly produce it.

As an aside other matters which have concerned me are...

- Allegations of Poles moving German's to concentration camps (again from Mar to late Aug 39)
- Allegations of Poles opening fire on civilian German airlines
- Gleiwitz incident and other incursions and firings on Germany close to official allied claimed outbreak of war
- The official statement of Emil Hacha's daughter allegedly claiming "her father willingly and w/o force made Czechoslovakia a protectorate- for which I can find no other evidence of this statement other than in Hoggan's book- which is suspiciously unreferenced.

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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball / Polish atrocities against Germans

Postby Werd » 9 months 4 days ago (Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:26 pm)

I was debating someone else about this issue and he kept saying things like there is no evidence Poles committed any atrocities before the German invasion. I copied and pasted many bits from this very topic here on codoh. He ignored what was in front of him. So I replied:
Werd wrote:
There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that the Poles massacred any Germans prior to the start of WW2. If so, provide evidence.

Stop ignoring what is right in front of you.
Veronica K. Clark...claims revisionists are just as unbending as the other side. She says near the end that writers like Richard Tedor and others who claim that HItler invaded Poland because of the Bromberg massacre are making mistakes because Hitler invaded on September 1 while the Bromberg massacre occured on the 3rd. She obviously missed this part from jrbooksonline.

GERMANS: ABUSED MINORITY!

An odd concept you may have never heard of. But it happened.

Atrocity photos you'll never see on the History Channel.

The historical record, as represented by the German government at the time, on Bromberg "Bloody Sunday" and related incidents -- 58,000 claimed dead or missing by Feb 1940. The German invasion was Sep 1939, but it's important to understand that many of the outrages had preceded the German invasion. This was proved by the amount of decomposition of the bodies. Thus, these atrocities cannot be excused simply as reprisals for the German invasion (which would be wrong anyway). They included 19 year-old girls with their faces smashed, amputations, disembowelments, shot thru' the eye, death-trauma births, you name it. Poles had been merrily slaughtering anything or anybody German since at least as early as April 1939, with smaller incidents stretching back to the close of WW I -- you haven't been told that by the Mass Media, or the fact that these atrocities were one of the main causes for the German invasion of Poland, something that was meant by the Germans to be a local solution to a local problem.

Image
A German priest gives his respects to the innocent fallen of Bromberg

&
Also, Von Ribbentrop defended the attack of Poland by stating that between 1919-1939, one million Germans had been expelled from Polish territory accompanied by numerous atrocities, and that complaints to the World Court in The Hague and the League of Nations in Geneva had been ignored.
IOW, the World Court did not find the accusations of Polish atrocities to be bogus.

further reading:
the book: "Dokumente polnischer Grausamkeiten. Verbrechen an Deutschen 1919-1939 nach amtlichen Quellen" (Documentations of Polish Cruelties. Crimes Against Germans 1919-1939 According to Official Sources).

Image

And here's another one I just found.
Image
The dead spoke Polish. Documents of Polish atrocities against Germans 1919-1949.
Published : Arndt, c1999

He later tried denying documented facts again. So I responeded:
Werd wrote:
Goody67 wrote:Do you agree or disagree that the Nazis viewed the Poles as culturally and racially inferior?

You mean like the Poles who were slaughtering Germans prior to WW II but you are pretending never happened?
Where is the proof that "many of the outrages had preceded the German invasion. This was proved by the amount of decomposition of the bodies"?

In those two books, dummy. Google translate:
Arndt-Verlag, ed .:
The death spoke Polish
Documents
Polish atrocities
to Germans 1919-1949

After the Foreign Office of the Federal Republic of Germany enforced a ban on distribution of the book Documents of Polish atrocities in court, the issuing publisher has now continued the sad subject of Polish crimes against Germans.

If one speaks of the painful history of the coexistence of Germans and Poles in the first half of the 20th century, one often encounters the following idea: there is a perpetrator nation - and that is the German people, and there is a sacrificial people - that is the Polish. This very simplified picture dominates public opinion (or published opinion) almost entirely. Only those who are really affected, the Germans from East Prussia, West Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia, as well as some scientists, who are hardly known to the general public, have a more differentiated view. Therefore, this book is overdue now. In addition to the Polish attacks since 1919 in Poznan, West Prussia and Upper Silesia and the massacres of 1939, which have gone down in history as the " Bromberg Blood Sunday ", the Polish eviction crimes and the torments in Polish post-war KZs take up a lot of space in this factory. With new, hitherto unknown, cruel documentary footage of slaughtered Germans, the balance of the horror is documented, to which in the 20th century innocent German civilians - often women and children - were repeatedly exposed by Polish fanatics.

Reconciliation and understanding can not be bought by accepting a one-sided and incomplete historiography. In the semi-official record of the suffering, the mass suffering and death of innocent German people is missing at the end and in the aftermath of World War II. However, crimes are not terrible in one case, the other less terrible, depending on who they perpetrated. Wrong can not be repaid by injustice. Tears have no nationality.

(Extracts from the publisher's brochure and cover text.)

Warning: only for readers with strong nerves!

(317 pp., 17.5 x 24.5 cm, bound, with numerous photos)


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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball / Polish atrocities against Germans

Postby Werd » 9 months 4 days ago (Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:31 pm)

He then said:
Goody67 wrote:I was referring to the "POLNISCHE BLUTSCHULD".

http://www.usmbooks.com/german_massacre_book.html

Find me any quotes from either book you have referenced that mention any pre-WW2 massacres. The victims were murdered in September and photographed at later dates.

Upon which point I handed him his own ass.
Werd wrote:Goody denies any Pole did anything to any German before September 3. And YET from his own link.
According to sworn testimony in Polnische Blutschuld, from 1 - 3 September ethnic Germans living in western Polish cities like Bromberg, were systematically murdered, beaten to death, shot, stabbed, had their skulls smashed and limbs cut off. When the German Wehrmacht arrived around 4 September they found plundered houses, bodies buried in shallow graves with tongues cut off, without eyes, and skulls with holes so big that the brain had slid out.


And finished it off with THIS:

He has not responded yet because he was given a 6 hour ban for ad hominem attacks. We'll see if he has anything of substance when he returns. Probably not!

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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball / Polish atrocities against Germans

Postby Werd » 9 months 3 days ago (Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:36 am)

He also seems indifferent to things like this:


More from Unconditioned Canuck:

A German Patriot Reflects On September 1939

The German minority had been disfranchised in the 1920s, and in the 1930s it was subjected to open terror, murder and rape, especially in the months preceding September 1939. Under the nonaggression treaty German newspapers were not allowed to report on Polish atrocities against the minority Germans, which led to the emigration of a million Germans. Another million remained behind in German regions that had been seized by the Poles. A popular song about the Poles that originated among the fighting home defense units in Upper Silesia was rewritten in National Socialist songbooks to suggest that the struggle was not against "Pjorunje" but rather "Bolschewike".

Since the British guarantee of 31 March 1939 gave Poland carte blanche in its dealings with Germany, Poland intensified its persecutions of the German minority. Abductions became common, speaking German in public was proscribed, German associations and newspapers were suppressed, the German consul in Krakow was murdered, etc. It is irrelevant whether Poles or Germans attacked the Gleiwitz transmitting station; whoever reads the White Book of the German- Polish war will find countless undisputed murders and assaults committed by the Poles in the weeks and months preceding 1 September 1939.



And another post of his.

ATROCITIES IN POLAND (Polish Revenge)
Massacres and Atrocities of WWII in Eastern Europe

At a later investigation, the testimonies of 593 witnesses established the fact that at least 3,841 named ethnic Germans were murdered by the Poles prior to the full German occupation. These revenge murders were carried out as early as April, 1939 in the Polish Corridor. In September, 1939 these Volksdeutsche formed themselves into Self-Protection units known as Selbschutz and came under the control of the SS and later under the Ordungspolizei (Order Police). The infamous reputation that it earned caused it to be disbanded on 30th of November, 1939. These massacres were one of the causes that gave Hitler the excuse to invade.
So there you have it - 3000 - the number the US used to justify taking over Afghanistan and Iraq.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

We know that after WWI, up to a million Germans had to flee the "Polish Corridor", mainly as a result of persecution (i.e. murder):

Exodus of the German population
Polish Corridor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As a result, a large number of Germans left Poland after the war: According to Wolff, 800,000 Germans had left Poland by 1923,[59] according to Gotthold Rhode, 575,000 left the former province of Posen and the corridor after the war,[60] according to Herrmann Rauschning, 800,000 Germans had left between 1918 and 1926,[60] contemporary author Alfons Krysinski estimated 800,000 plus 100,000 from East Upper Silesia,[60] the contemporary German statistics say 592,000 Germans had left by 1921,[60] other Polish scholars say that up to a million Germans left.[60]

Here we have a book written about Polish atrocities towards Ukranian minorities within its borders between WWI and WWII:
Polish Atrocities in Ukraine
Polish Atrocities in Ukraine: Amazon.ca: Emil Revyuk: Books

The evidence of Polish atrocities throughout Ukraine is, however, not historical fiction as some would have you believe, but is reality evidenced and presented in this book by way of numerous documents, eye-witness accounts, investigations, reports, and testimonies, and is presented on 512 pages within thirty-six chapters. Three appendices follow, as well as two maps. The index spans pages 507-512.

This riveting recount of history is from Ukraine's sad, sadistic, cruel chapter of existence as experienced and recorded only until 1931, the date of publication of this book; however, Polish atrocities continued and neither ended nor abated with the year 1931.



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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball / Polish atrocities against Germans

Postby Werd » 9 months 3 days ago (Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:39 am)

He does claim that evidence of Polish aggression of any kind is absent from the German blue and white books. Which would mean Jurgen Rieger, the "Great German Patriot" in quesion is lying or mistaken about any pre war murders, rapes and assaults against the Germans done by Poles.

Goody67 wrote:
Here is the German original of "Polnische Blutschuld":

https://ia800308.us.archive.org/20/items/Polnische-Blutschuld-Der-Bromberger-Blutsonntag/PolnischeBlutschuld-DerBrombergerBlutsonntag193948S.Scan.pdf

Here is the online German White book in English:

http://web.archive.org/web/20140408220352/http://www.allworldwars.com/German%20White%20Book.html

Here is the original German Blue book in English:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/950sfjx8dobzv4m/White+Book+and+Blue+Book_bw_ocr.pdf

Here is the exact wording from the book:

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1045758-15/#post12178943

Those two are the only mentions in the official book published by the then German Foreign Office, everything else is limited to post-September 3rd. Go read through the testimonies in the book, none mention any murders before that date. Neither do the White & Blue books mention any massacres.

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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball / Polish atrocities against Germans

Postby Deitrich » 8 months 4 weeks ago (Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:51 am)

Werd wrote:He does claim that evidence of Polish aggression of any kind is absent from the German blue and white books. Which would mean Jurgen Rieger, the "Great German Patriot" in quesion is lying or mistaken about any pre war murders, rapes and assaults against the Germans done by Poles.

Goody67 wrote:
Here is the German original of "Polnische Blutschuld":

https://ia800308.us.archive.org/20/items/Polnische-Blutschuld-Der-Bromberger-Blutsonntag/PolnischeBlutschuld-DerBrombergerBlutsonntag193948S.Scan.pdf

Here is the online German White book in English:

http://web.archive.org/web/20140408220352/http://www.allworldwars.com/German%20White%20Book.html

Here is the original German Blue book in English:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/950sfjx8dobzv4m/White+Book+and+Blue+Book_bw_ocr.pdf

Here is the exact wording from the book:

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1045758-15/#post12178943

Those two are the only mentions in the official book published by the then German Foreign Office, everything else is limited to post-September 3rd. Go read through the testimonies in the book, none mention any murders before that date. Neither do the White & Blue books mention any massacres.


Werd- again I'm not sure your angle and your posts are very long (multiple in fact)- but here it seems you are DEFENDING the magnitude of Polish atrocities against the German's.

This double-agent game is very interesting I have to say- I just want to learn.

Interestingly, on this issue, it's the ONLY time I have ever seen Hannover dismantled, perhaps because this is not his area of expertise- no discredit to him either, more of a compliment. Which you can see here... viewtopic.php?t=7525 I have never seen this happen to him before and required bailing from the mod.

I have since this time become adept on the issue.

The 58,000 is propaganda- about 7 thousands give were killed during Bromberg. When they say "proven by the decomp of the bodies"- can you (I would say "we" but you belong to another camp)- you/we can't provide that actual forensic report- indicating it could be part of the propaganda- the evidence then becomes weak.

Hannover was quick in this thread to switch to Ribbentrop which is a "nazi" source"- although there's no doubt Ribbentrop "believed" in it as did the allied statesmen who spoke of it. Whether Hitler or Goebbel's did was more important.

I have seen no evidence of major Polish concentration camps for German's during the period March to August 1939- I would like to see it if it exists??? The mistake pointed out by the Poster Toshiro in the thread I linked above is quite amusing in this regard.

^That all being stated- I also think there's no "Denying" that the Poles severely even- mistreated the German civilians!! What is also evident in my view is that they were "exaggerated" by the German's for propaganda- which is understandable in war- kind of in the same way that the "Einsatzgruppen" reports of the Soviet's (from slightly doctored to the entirely concocted in their entirety), "Jager" for example [hehe] were "exaggerated" for propaganda purposes also- which is "also" understandable in war- or in post-facto trying to justify a previously won war. :D

Curiously I have read Tedor's book which is solid https://ia601305.us.archive.org/13/item ... dTedor.pdf

As your antagonist you were arguing with alleged that Tedor tried to fraud Bromberg as a cause for WW2- Tedor in fact does NOT promote massive murders of German civilians or call them "atrocities" if you will (that word smells of fish in itself)- he gives it a very grounded treatment.

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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball / Polish atrocities against Germans

Postby Werd » 8 months 4 weeks ago (Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:09 pm)

When they say "proven by the decomp of the bodies"...you/we can't provide that actual forensic report- indicating it could be part of the propaganda- the evidence then becomes weak.

I already admitted elsewhere that this would be tough to prove. But
I'm not sure your angle

Not to be disrespectful, but is English your second language? For an exercise, read this. Slowly:
He does claim that evidence of Polish aggression of any kind is absent from the German blue and white books. Which would mean Jurgen Rieger, the "Great German Patriot" in quesion is lying or mistaken about any pre war murders, rapes and assaults against the Germans done by Poles.

That is me summarizing the views of Goody. Now where do you find anywhere me necessarily agreeing with it. I'm simply putting his arguments and his links out there for the purpose of debate so we can SOLVE this problem. I still think there were Polish atrocities against Germans before September 1939. Check the table of contents of those two books. One goes back to 1919. The other goes back to 1922. Goody still thinks the Germans staged a false flag at Gleiwitz to blame the Poles. Even Polish neo revisionist Veroinca Clark spent a whole book debunking that. And she was one of the ones that I found out was questioning the 58,000 figure herself.
I have seen no evidence of major Polish concentration camps for German's during the period March to August 1939- I would like to see it if it exists??? The mistake pointed out by the Poster Toshiro in the thread I linked above is quite amusing in this regard.

Agreed.

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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball / Polish atrocities against Germans

Postby Deitrich » 8 months 3 weeks ago (Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:46 am)

Werd wrote:He does claim that evidence of Polish aggression of any kind is absent from the German blue and white books. Which would mean Jurgen Rieger, the "Great German Patriot" in quesion is lying or mistaken about any pre war murders, rapes and assaults against the Germans done by Poles.


The problem is not that English is my second language [i.e. it isn't], it is that I have only known the Holocaust is a lie for less than 3 years- or in your view that "elements of it"- by extension here I mean all this stuff even non-holocaust related. You need to understand that prior to that I had absolutely zero concern or knowledge of this stuff whatsoever- my curiosity and development is by pure chance to stumble across it.

It's because in this instance quoted (the only one we seem to be in contention about) that I'm not entirely sure about who Jurgen Reiger is or how he has lied (?) or allgedly lied according to the guy you disagree with. As in- I do not know these details to make an informed judgement- so when you write that- I clearly do not know what angle you are coming from!!

You could enlighten me here.

I have not yet read the White and Blue German books for WW2- I certainly will be but I'm still at breakneck pace getting through the most important works of the Holocaust and starting to simulatanously make my way through the supporting material involving the actual causes and conflict of WW2.

I trust you will find this response satisfactory as an explanation and actually hope you will reply.

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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball / Polish atrocities against Germans

Postby HMSendeavour » 3 weeks 6 days ago (Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:50 am)

Also, Von Ribbentrop defended the attack of Poland by stating that between 1919-1939, one million Germans had been expelled from Polish territory accompanied by numerous atrocities, and that complaints to the World Court in The Hague and the League of Nations in Geneva had been ignored.


I'm curious. Is this verifiable? How many Germans were expelled or fled from Poland? I have some books in mind that could answer this question but I'm also curious as to what others source.

In any case. I'm going to post some information that might prove useful and clarifying. To be sure, Polish persecution against Germans WAS REAL and in no way was it a German exercise in propaganda. But on some level German propaganda was conducted but on the basis of truth and reality. The middle is always closer to the truth. Once you read what I post many things should fall into place. For instance, why the German blue and white books do not mention large massacres, and this fact proves further the authenticity of the blue and white book.

The first source to set the scene and reality is 'Orphans of Versaille' by Richard Blanke. This has to do specifically with the German minority and conflict in Poland after Versaille up to the Second World War. And to be honest, I'm shocked at how little attention is paid to this work.

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The overall death toll from this outbreak of communal hysteria continues to be a subject of debate. Many victims, buried in unmarked graves, were never found and remain classified as "missing". A Central Office for the Graves of Murdered Ethnic Germans was set up under Kurt Lück and Karl Berger and charged with compiling a comprehensive list of victims. Their files, deposited today in the Koblenz archives, contain 5,437 names and were the basis for several German propaganda books detailing Polish atrocities. Hitler soon seized upon exaggerated estimates of the number of dead (13,000) and missing (45,000); he combined them and then made everyone adhere to the total of 58,000. The Lück-Berger file was found in Poznań in 1945 and used by Pospieszalski to discredit the 58,000 figure. He reckoned that even 5,437 was an exaggerated count, since it included some who were missing only temporarily as well as about a thousand Polish German soldiers, who were listed whether their deaths were due to poles or to the Wehrmacht. Pospieszalski argues that most of these, and many of the civilian casualties as well were due to the war itself still others listed in the file were not ethnic Germans to begin with. He concludes that "only" about 2,000 members of the German minority in western Poland died as a direct result of popular violence during the first weeks of the war. Peter Aurich, however, studying the same evidence a decade later, found that the deaths of at least 3,841 German civilians as a result of popular violence could be attested to by more than one witness: 2,063 who were killed in or near where they lived, 1,576 who did not survive the treks eastward, and 202 who died later of injuries. Adding these figures to the number of solders killed by their Polish comrades, Aurich contends that between 4,000 and 5,000 members of the German minority in western Poland (or about 2% of it's total number) died as a result of population violence in September 1939. Orphans of Versaille, pp. 235-236


That should help clarify some history on the numbers. Onto the most important section in the final pages of the book.

It is hard to avoid the conclusion that the Polish state was bent on the elimination of most of the German minority in Western Poland---by forced assimilation where possible, but mainly by coerced emigration. Moreover, this goal was well on the way to being achieved in 1939; the Pozanian wojewode reportedly assured his supporters that within three years there would no longer be any Germans in Poland. A study of the minority's actual political, cultural, and economic situation merely reinforces the pessimistic assessments of contemporaries cited above. The fact that Hitler took up the minority's case several months before he launched World War II was perhaps the overriding consideration at the time, but it does not make the fact of the minority's plight less compelling. Of course, any country faced with such an adversary might be justified in relegating consideration for a difficult minority to a back burner; even today, some will respond to this account of the minority's travails with a "So What?" in view of the larger issues at stake in 1939. The point, however, is that only a small proportion of the innumerable measures directed at the German minority in Poland, essentially those dating from after April 1939, can be attributed directly to Poland's anticipation of war with Germany. The bulk of the policies and attitudes that determined the living conditions of the minority in interwar Poland antedated 1939 (and 1933 too) and were unconnected to any immediate external threat. It hardly needs to be added that they did nothing to make Poland more secure when the mortal threat materialized. The fact is that Polish nationalism, motivated by the irrational but powerful compulsion to creation a nationally homogeneous society in it's western provinces, created a situation well before 1939 which was bad even by the unenlightened standards of interwar Eastern Europe. Moreover, it is hard to see how this situation would have been different had there never been a Hitler. The "plight" of the German minority in Poland, in other words, was real; it was not merely alleged or fabricated in the interest of Nazi propaganda. ----Apart from the macro political situation in 1939, however, the evidence above makes clear that Germans in Poland had ample justification for their complaints; their prospects for even medium-term survival were bleak; and no German government more principled than Hitler's would have been able to ignore their plight over the long run. Though it was not politic to make these points at the time, there is no reason why they cannot be accepted half a century later.[ Orphans of Versaille. pp. 236-237


This is absolutely essential. And I implore everyone to buy a copy of the book (as there is no free one online as far as I could find) and read the read. It's not too long for someone who has the time to read it. This also goes some way in answering my question about emigration, but alas I do not have the numbers, they might be elsewhere in Blanke's book. If anyone could let me know, please do.

Now finally, more to do with the German minority and how the 58,000 figure came into being can be gleaned from Fritz Hess's 1954 book 'Hitler and the English'. Hesse was a German diplomat stationed in London, he reported to Hitler and Ribbentrop on the current state of the English, he also recognized some very inconvenient truths which were published in this book. Confirming that Hitler definitely wanted peace with Britain and a free hand in the east. I have a copy of the book, it seems to be relatively hard to find and I actually only became aware of it because of John Toland who cites what I will quote in a moment within his biography of Hitler. Although his use of the quotation is rather condensed, once read fully it truly puts into perspective Hitler's views on the issue of the German minority and his keen attitude to deal with it ASAP.

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The Polish General Staff, in accordance with a decision by the Polish council of ministers, gave orders that the threatened western provinces be cleared of the Germans. The commanders of the local garrisons were ordered to carry out the evacuation. Local fighting and mass-evacuations were the result. in the course of which some 4,850 Germans (men, women and children) were reported killed. This figure appeared in the German official publication of documents relating to Poland, only it was altered by order of Ribbentrop for reasons of propaganda. A nought was added, so that the figure 4,850 became 48,500 which, in the official publication was rounded off to appear as 50,000. The bloodshed in Poland did not remain a secret. It became known through distorted and exaggerated reports which were submitted to Hitler. A.I. Berndt was the liaison between the German News Agency and Hitler. He told me, with his usual boastfulness, how Hitler reacted. "I myself," said Berndt, "gave the Führer the little shove that landed him in the war. I got the news that the Poles had killed 30,000 Germans. As I thought 30,000 were too few, I added a nought and laid a report before the Führer which made him suppose the Poles had killed 300,000. When Hitler read it, he roared like a bull and told me I was an infamous liar. I replied that the figures might be exaggerated but that there was certainly some truth in them. Hitler was speechless and then began roaring afresh: 'They'll pay for this! Now no one will stop me from teaching these fellows a lesson they'll never forget! I will not have my Germans butchered like cattle.'" According to Berndt's account, Hitler went to the telephone and, in his presence, gave Keitel the second order for the invasion of Poland. This account is confirmed by others. Hitler's roaring was overheard by Erich Kordt, the head of Ribbentrop's bureau and is described by him in his book Wahn und Wirklichkeit. Ribbentrop, Hewel, and other witnesses reported that Hitler suddenly changed round, threw up all negotiation, and without consulting any of his advisers gave orders for the invasion. The bloodshed in Poland threw him into a state of hysterical excitement. To Ribbentrop he said: "it is my right and my duty to defend all Germans. I will not allow anyone to touch one single hair on one single German's head." Hewel told me Hitler explained his volte face by saying that the English too, would understand that he could not abandon his fellow countrymen. Hitler's second decision to order the invasion of Poland was taken at 12.40 p.m. on the 1st September. The assertion so often made, amongst others, by the prosecution at Nuremberg, that Hitler fixed the 1st of September as the date of the invasion at his conference with his generals on the 22nd August at Berchtesgaden is erroneous. Fritz Hesse, Hitler and the English, pp. 82-83


This should be enlightening. Even more so considering I found the source in a mainstream Hitler biography (and In my opinion the best one).

What we're shown is that Hitler himself was fooled by those around him. This fact, and that no massacres were recorded in the blue and white books should undoubtedly go a way to proving the reliability of the German B&W books. Accompanied with the fact we also know the Polish White book published by the Germans is also legitimate. To conclude, yes, there were Polish atrocities against Germans, terror and coercion, violence and murders but perhaps not endless massacres.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference


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