The Forced war by David L. Hoggan

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Re: The Forced war by David L. Hoggan

Postby Mortimer » 1 year 2 weeks ago (Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:07 am)

Deitrich wrote:
Mortimer wrote:
Mkk wrote:First off I'd like to say thankyou to the moderators who have opened the WW2 revisionist forum on my and others suggestion. :)

The following is one of the most famous revisionist books on the origins of the Second World war, and is reccomended reading for anyone wanting to see the "other side" of the debate.

The Forced War

When Peaceful Revision Failed


By David L. Hoggan

http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/T ... 20War1.htm

Many other WW2 and Holocaust books, some revisionist and some not, can be found at this link (it takes some time to load)

http://wnlibrary.org/

Both of the above links are now kaput but you can find an English version of The Forced War here - https://archive.org/details/TheForcedWar


I have not read the forced war but it is recommended by Butz and by Metapedia which is careful to avoid mistakes as being solid. However I disagree.

There's not a single reference in it. Maybe that's why the CODOH book store does not include it at all! Because they seem to only include books that pass a stringent quality screen. I think it should take a low priority until someone can provide a convincing answer as to why without any scholarly references.

As noted by Haldan in an earlier post there is a German version which is called Der Erzwungene Krieg. Apparently it has footnotes/references. Can someone who reads German please confirm this ? If so maybe a CODOH translator can put these online in English ?
https://archive.org/details/Hoggan1977- ... ngeneKrieg
There are 2 sides to every story - always listen or read both points of view and make up your own mind. Don't let others do your thinking for you.

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Re: The Forced war by David L. Hoggan

Postby Deitrich » 1 year 2 weeks ago (Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:18 am)

Mortimer wrote:
Deitrich wrote:
Mortimer wrote:Both of the above links are now kaput but you can find an English version of The Forced War here - https://archive.org/details/TheForcedWar


I have not read the forced war but it is recommended by Butz and by Metapedia which is careful to avoid mistakes as being solid. However I disagree.

There's not a single reference in it. Maybe that's why the CODOH book store does not include it at all! Because they seem to only include books that pass a stringent quality screen. I think it should take a low priority until someone can provide a convincing answer as to why without any scholarly references.

As noted by Haldan in an earlier post there is a German version which is called Der Erzwungene Krieg. Apparently it has footnotes/references. Can someone who reads German please confirm this ? If so maybe a CODOH translator can put these online in English ?
https://archive.org/details/Hoggan1977- ... ngeneKrieg


Bollocks!

"Apparently" has "footnotes" ?

If the book was referenced properly to credible sources- then it would have been the highest priority of all WW2 revisionists to have this work translated into English- probably the highest priority of any single other revisionist book across all fields worldwide- this alone discredits it.

Then the excuses- "sorry footnotes were not copied to save space"- convenient to drop the sources.

Even David Irving's books, which are written in the same non-academic story book style as Hoggan's, have some system of referencing.

Compare to Wallendy's work Truth for Germany in prose and citation.

Simple example- he claims in his book Hacha's daughter was given a box of chocolates on the German's arrival, and that she quote "said in a post war interview that her father willingly and without coercion made the protectorate"- this is pretty "important" information I am sure you would agree Mortimer..

Something pretty deserving of a "reference". Interestingly, you wont find that in other more citable revisionist works.

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Re: The Forced war by David L. Hoggan

Postby Deitrich » 1 year 2 weeks ago (Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:32 am)

Deitrich wrote:
Mortimer wrote:
Deitrich wrote:
I have not read the forced war but it is recommended by Butz and by Metapedia which is careful to avoid mistakes as being solid. However I disagree.

There's not a single reference in it. Maybe that's why the CODOH book store does not include it at all! Because they seem to only include books that pass a stringent quality screen. I think it should take a low priority until someone can provide a convincing answer as to why without any scholarly references.

As noted by Haldan in an earlier post there is a German version which is called Der Erzwungene Krieg. Apparently it has footnotes/references. Can someone who reads German please confirm this ? If so maybe a CODOH translator can put these online in English ?
https://archive.org/details/Hoggan1977- ... ngeneKrieg


Bollocks!

"Apparently" has "footnotes" ?

If the book was referenced properly to credible sources- then it would have been the highest priority of all WW2 revisionists to have this work translated into English- probably the highest priority of any single other revisionist book across all fields worldwide- this alone discredits it.

Then the excuses- "sorry footnotes were not copied to save space"- convenient to drop the sources.

Even David Irving's books, which are written in the same non-academic story book style as Hoggan's, have some system of referencing.

Compare to Wallendy's work Truth for Germany in prose and citation.

Simple example- he claims in his book Hacha's daughter was given a box of chocolates on the German's arrival, and that she quote "said in a post war interview that her father willingly and without coercion made the protectorate"- this is pretty "important" information I am sure you would agree Mortimer..

Something pretty deserving of a "reference". Interestingly, you wont find that in other more citable revisionist works.


Okay Mortimer- upon examining... It seems the citations are provided Oxford style within the text body, then condensed into sequential citations by chapter leading to the bibliography at the end of the book.

The citations section is very hard to discern both the type, especially the superscript and it's heavy going due to the clutter. Could explain why no half assed attempt at translation has been attempted with footnotes. I still think the fact this work is not translated into English in a new edition in full smells rotten.

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Re: The Forced war by David L. Hoggan

Postby HMSendeavour » 11 months 2 weeks ago (Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:32 pm)

Deitrich wrote:
Deitrich wrote:
Mortimer wrote:As noted by Haldan in an earlier post there is a German version which is called Der Erzwungene Krieg. Apparently it has footnotes/references. Can someone who reads German please confirm this ? If so maybe a CODOH translator can put these online in English ?
https://archive.org/details/Hoggan1977- ... ngeneKrieg


Bollocks!

"Apparently" has "footnotes" ?

If the book was referenced properly to credible sources- then it would have been the highest priority of all WW2 revisionists to have this work translated into English- probably the highest priority of any single other revisionist book across all fields worldwide- this alone discredits it.

Then the excuses- "sorry footnotes were not copied to save space"- convenient to drop the sources.

Even David Irving's books, which are written in the same non-academic story book style as Hoggan's, have some system of referencing.

Compare to Wallendy's work Truth for Germany in prose and citation.

Simple example- he claims in his book Hacha's daughter was given a box of chocolates on the German's arrival, and that she quote "said in a post war interview that her father willingly and without coercion made the protectorate"- this is pretty "important" information I am sure you would agree Mortimer..

Something pretty deserving of a "reference". Interestingly, you wont find that in other more citable revisionist works.


Okay Mortimer- upon examining... It seems the citations are provided Oxford style within the text body, then condensed into sequential citations by chapter leading to the bibliography at the end of the book.

The citations section is very hard to discern both the type, especially the superscript and it's heavy going due to the clutter. Could explain why no half assed attempt at translation has been attempted with footnotes. I still think the fact this work is not translated into English in a new edition in full smells rotten.


So the book still has the potential to be translated because it is in fact cited (just in a confusing way)? I think if it were to be translated it'd be beneficial to turn the citations into notes, and simply source them like a regular work of history is nowadays. It might come out a big longer after formatting but that's fine. It'd become instantly more readable albeit with a couple hundred more pages when you account for the notes and enlarging the text.

It doesn't smell fishy to me at all. Sure, there's criticism when it comes to the sources and their formatting but I haven't even seen this complaint made by conformist historians when they review the book. Nor do they criticize in character the aspects of the war. In Lipstadts case she really only gives Hoggan a hard time about the Jews and his refusal to use mental gymnastics on Hitler's words. You'd think such a dangerous work would be worthwhile refuting beyond a shadow of a doubt if it is in-fact that easily refuted (which I doubt).

As far as I've seen Hoggan's work has largely gone ignored, it's still cited in IHR articles, new revisionist works like John Wear's "Germany's War" without complaint. If it was seriously that repulsive a book, that untrustworthy I think it'd have been made abundantly clear by now. I'm nearly convinced that the reason Hoggan's work hasn't been retranslated is because of indifference and lack of interest. People I meet just have the shitty English pdf (which I really hope isn't the actual formatting of the English edition because it truly is awfully layed out and considerably shorter) that seems to do them enough by satisfying their needs for healthy antidote to regular historiography. Most regular people just don't demand better and thus it isn't done.

I have hope that in the near future Hoggan's works, not just "the forced war" will be brought back into English properly well presented.

However. I'd still very much like new revisionist works to appear, such things need to be done in order to keep up with the same freshly packaged propaganda put out by conventional historians every year. I haven't yet had the chance to read Gerd Schultze-Rhonhof's book, but from the speech I saw him make It's make me thoroughly excited to buy the English translation available.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference

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Re: The Forced war by David L. Hoggan

Postby christianbethel » 2 months 1 week ago (Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:52 pm)

It can also be found here.

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Re: The Forced war by David L. Hoggan

Postby Lamprecht » 2 months 1 week ago (Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:39 pm)

The entire book in HTML format is found on Unz:

The Forced War
When Peaceful Revisionism Failed
David L. Hoggan • 1989 • 320,000 Words

http://www.unz.com/book/david_l_hoggan__the-forced-war/
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: The Forced war by David L. Hoggan

Postby HMSendeavour » 2 months 2 days ago (Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:58 am)

I still think the latest German edition, whenever it was released, should be re-translated, re-edited and printed into English. It's been too long and not readily available in an acceptable form.

Not only that. But Hoggan has plenty of other seemingly relevant books in German that aren't in English as well.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference

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Re: The Forced war by David L. Hoggan

Postby Lamprecht » 2 months 2 days ago (Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:15 am)

HMSendeavour wrote:I still think the latest German edition, whenever it was released, should be re-translated, re-edited and printed into English. It's been too long and not readily available in an acceptable form.

Not only that. But Hoggan has plenty of other seemingly relevant books in German that aren't in English as well.

The current English edition is quite long and detailed. So that would probably be a massive undertaking.
What we should hope for is that as AI improves drastically, along with it the ability to translate text.
Hopefully within a decade it could get to the point where the translations are 99% perfect and all that is needed is someone bilingual to read over it and check for minor errors.

Are we talking about:
Der erzwungene Krieg, Tübingen: Grabert Verlag, 1961
translated into English as: The Forced War : When Peaceful Revision Failed, Costa Mesa, California : Institute for Historical Review, 1989

With the more recent version as:
Der unnötige Krieg, Tübingen: Grabert Verlag 1976
??
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: The Forced war by David L. Hoggan

Postby HMSendeavour » 2 months 2 days ago (Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:52 am)

Lamprecht wrote: The current English edition is quite long and detailed. So that would probably be a massive undertaking. What we should hope for is that as AI improves drastically, along with it the ability to translate text. Hopefully within a decade it could get to the point where the translations are 99% perfect and all that is needed is someone bilingual to read over it and check for minor errors.


Yes that would be good. But I'm not sure if we can hope for such a thing yet. While I do agree that the current English edition is long and detailed I do not think it is sufficiently so. Especially if what has been said in this thread so far is true.

For example, Haldan 6 years ago said

This is one of the best, but the English translation/edition is more or less useless for reference, and it's wrecked compared with the German. Barnes... :evil:

[...]

Just a friendly question to both of you. Have any of you read the German edition, the one published by Grabert Verlag? The English edition can't be compared,it's wrecked. Even the introduction.


Also.

Mkk wrote:
Haldan,
I can't speak German too well, so I've only read the English. What's wrong with that version?


Maybe the best explanation comes from Carlos Porter in this reply to Ernst Zündel regarding Howard Fertig edition of Hitler Speeches:

I think the same thing (British provocation of the war) would have happened even without the Jews, more or less because of the influence of Soviet communism on the British intellectual classes and British snobbery, but of course Hoggan leaves Jews out of the equation entirely, which is going too far. All anti-Communists are always smeared, always, even Goldwater, who was part Jewish. Of course, making a distinction between Jews and Communists is like taking an apple pie and cutting it in half. But just the same… Hoggan is right on one very important point: he hates the British. This allows him to see certain things very clearly. In DER UNNOETIGE KRIEG he says the British have followed one principle throughout history: never keep your word “das gegebene Wort nie zu halten” [never to keep their pledged word]. Of course the book has never been published in the English original. He also speaks of “Millionen von amerikanischen Narren”... [millions of American fools] etc.

[..] deletions

I am d-i-s-g-u-s-t-e-d at the treatment of Hoggan by Elmer Barnes and others, Barnes disagreed with Hoggan on a few minor points so he sabotaged the publication of the book FORCED WAR in English for almost 30 years, Devin-Adair was going to publish it. If Barnes doesn’t like the book, why the hell didn’t he write his own book, or pan it in a book review? No, he insisted that certain changes be made or it couldn’t get published, Hoggan got mad, and said, the hell with it, no changes. So the world lost the benefit of this priceless book in English for 30 years because of a bitchy cat fight between a couple of so-called intellectuals (forgive the mixed metaphor, mea culpa). Hoggan was right, and anyway when they DID publish it in English it wasn’t even complete, there are whole paragraphs missing. Plus an introduction full of boring essays on “what is revisionism”, running down the book they were trying to sell, super-apologetic, etc., saying the critics didn’t like the footnotes, etc. What kind of salesmanship is that? Answer: Typical IHR. They acted like they were ashamed of the product. They deleted whole sections. The original two-page introduction in German is dynamite, but the IHR introduction is just typical IHR: wish-washy, apologetic, pretentious and boring.


I can get back to this later with other details, but this is basically it.


User NLG noted.


I asked what he meant by this as I only knew of Hoggan's book, The Forced War, which is now out of print and very expensive. To this I got the interesting reply:

"He also wrote several other 3-volume sets of history books which were published in German but never English. What the hell is the logic of that? They were written in English, he was American and lived in America. One was called THE BLIND CENTURY and another was called THE AMERICAN DISASTER. Those are the titles translated back into English. Where the hell did the manuscripts go? I think there are others as well. I'll publish them myself if I get permission. Also THE FORCED WAR is shorter in English than it was in German. They interfered with everything he did. -- CARLOS"


These seem pretty damning. And in my opinion it would be easier to simply retranslate the latest German edition which I think came out in the early 90s or 2000s? I myself own a 1986 13th printing German Edition. And I know there are 14th and 15th printings.

My other problem is that the book isn't easy to come by either, I myself went to the trouble of tracking down a copy and came across by good fortune another for surprisingly cheap but still more expensive than if someone else were to go and buy one. Not to mention they're still in rough shape. The problem with this is that the book is significant, but hard to obtain, the online ones hardly cut it as they're some 600 pages shorter for whatever reason (I personally do not need to use those), I think it's because the notes are missing. The IHR official Hardcover edition is 214 pages shorter than the German. The German being 930 pages, the English sitting at 716. That's a pretty large chunk if you ask me. I'm not sure if it's formatting or what, but I'm highly skeptical of that being the case.

In short, this isn't good if we want to get revisionism available to the public. Regular people do not have the time or money to buy a copy of Hoggans work for hundreds of dollars, especially when our enemies are publishing new books every year. The least I think revisionists could do is republish one classic text we have and shill it like hot cakes. We need to have higher standards for how we go about this kind of thing. The Holocaust Handbooks are great examples, cheap (when I say 'cheap' I don't mean low quality, the quality is very impressive and I enjoy them thoroughly), readable and very professionally presentable. These kinds of aesthetic choices help us in the long run. Especially when we show that the revisionists are dedicated to publishing material we know exists making sure we're active instead of potentially weak and insignificant. Not only does it help us compete with the standard histories but it earns our side money to put towards more research, more books, more competition to fight and beat the Marxists etc. It's all positive if we could only translate a perfectly good work that's already sitting there waiting to be published anew for this current day.

That's my take anyway.

Are we talking about:
Der erzwungene Krieg, Tübingen: Grabert Verlag, 1961
translated into English as: The Forced War : When Peaceful Revision Failed, Costa Mesa, California : Institute for Historical Review, 1989

With the more recent version as:
Der unnötige Krieg, Tübingen: Grabert Verlag 1976
??


I'm sorry Lamprecht, now that you mention it I'm not sure what "Der unnötige Krieg"
is. Is it TFW in German by another title?

I'm only aware of Der erzwungene Krieg, Der unnötige Krieg and a few other of the German books under his name although I do not know their plots thesis.
Last edited by HMSendeavour on Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference

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Re: The Forced war by David L. Hoggan

Postby Lamprecht » 2 months 2 days ago (Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:08 am)

That's disheartening to say the least. I never read the entirety of the online English version, just a few chapters on certain parts. I like the way it is broken up into subchapters, almost like a very long wikipedia article.

To get something like that translated you would need the German version and also someone willing to do it. Without a financial incentive that's going to be quite difficult. Maybe it could be done chapter by chapter by different people, like '200 years together'. It's a shame that there was a mistranslation like that, when they could have just done it right. But i'm sure many parts were translated perfectly well or almost flawlessly, which would make an updated translation that much easier.

Is the full German edition available online?

The fact that he was an American professor and his works were published in German not English was also confusing. And now that I see he originally wrote some works in English that were translated but only published in German irks me. Someone has to have the documents.

As for that 1976 book I just quickly checked his list of works on Wikipedia before heading off to work. I don't know anything about that book.
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Re: The Forced war by David L. Hoggan

Postby HMSendeavour » 2 months 2 days ago (Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:27 am)

Lamprecht wrote:That's disheartening to say the least. I never read the entirety of the online English version, just a few chapters on certain parts. I like the way it is broken up into subchapters, almost like a very long wikipedia article.

To get something like that translated you would need the German version and also someone willing to do it. Without a financial incentive that's going to be quite difficult. Maybe it could be done chapter by chapter by different people, like '200 years together'. It's a shame that there was a mistranslation like that, when they could have just done it right. But i'm sure many parts were translated perfectly well or almost flawlessly, which would make an updated translation that much easier.

Is the full German edition available online?

The fact that he was an American professor and his works were published in German not English was also confusing. And now that I see he originally wrote some works in English that were translated but only published in German irks me. Someone has to have the documents.

As for that 1976 book I just quickly checked his list of works on Wikipedia before heading off to work. I don't know anything about that book.


I'm with you there 1000%. It's unfortunate, and very frustrating. But on the plus side we at least have the books in German even if the English papers never turn up. I guess it'll just take some self sacrifice and passion if the project is ever undertaken to have these books particularly TFW retranslated, edited and printed. I would do it if I could, but I don't know German nor do I have the ability to format and edit a book. I would hope there could be some deal made from the profits after it's finished, but that's a risky bargain and I wouldn't blame anyone if they didn't take it.

I wasn't aware that 200 years together was finished, only that there's a pretty rough looking pdf online. The formatting really puts me off anyway. I do know there was an english edition published under the title The Crucifixion of Russia by someone called Columbus Falco, but that book is impossible to find, and to be honest, the cover art is just the worst. I cannot believe how poorly designed it is.

And yeah, there's a fully scanned German version of Der erzwungene Krieg. https://archive.org/details/Hoggan1977-DerErzwungeneKrieg/page/n1 Although it's a 1977 edition, I'm not sure if there's a difference between the latest or the oldest. I compared the length and last page of this 1977 edition with my 1986 edition and I couldn't see any changes. But that's not nearly good enough to actually tell for obvious reasons.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference


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