A Discussion of the Holocaust with Friends

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
Hegwood
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:34 pm

A Discussion of the Holocaust with Friends

Postby Hegwood » 3 months 2 weeks ago (Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:29 pm)

Six to eight weeks ago I brought up the holocaust to a group of acquaintances, making the argument that it didn't happen because what it describes is impossible. Of course, I soon found myself totally on my own, the sole voice of reason. If anyone in the group of ten or twelve ever doubted or for that matter even knew much of the particulars of the generally presented holocaust storyline they did not speak up. It was clear from the few who had anything to say that all they knew was based on WWII propaganda and Hollywood fiction. "Schindler's List", though not mentioned, being a good example. Although they were for the most part civil, it was clear that no one accepted my verbal description of the holocaust storyline. I believe they had more trouble accepting the actual holocaust story than they did realizing it was impossible.

An honest discussion of the holocaust story, in so much as it is even possible, is very touchy and could be disruptive to the group. Knowing I was right I did not want to back down but I also did not want to create a contentious atmosphere that could be disruptive of the groups future so I proceeded slowly. At a later meeting I passed a brief description of the holocaust storyline to a single individual who I thought might be open minded enough to recognize how screwy it is. It is a description that I posted on this forum before and will repeat below.

Prominent in that description is Yankiel Wiernik's claim that at Treblinka, Jews were gassed and then burned, not cremated, just burned. Wiernik claims that no fuel was necessary the bodies just burned to ashes. As far as I can tell Wiernik's tale is the accepted holohax description of the Treblinka "death camp". There are very few individuals who claimed to have survived Treblinka. None of these, as far as I've seen, ever gave a description of open air cremation that significantly differs from Wiernik's, His tale is impossible, therefore fictional. Later, the individual to whom I had given the paper responded. He began making changes to Wiernik's description of events. He did not make it clear what his source was but he must know of another alleged witness that I never heard of. If he just knew better himself without such a source he must have somehow been there.

There was one exception to the civility. One individual claimed that he knew someone who was with an Army unit that overran one of the camps in western Germany and saw "bodies in a crematoria." I tried to explain that no one any longer claims that there were mass executions in the camps in Germany proper. The so called death camps were more than 500 miles from western Germany and had all been overrun by Soviet forces at least four months before the first Allied troops ever set foot in western Germany. He called me a liar and said he wasn't going to listen to anything I had to say. He even started blubbering whenever I tried to speak. As a result I did not get a chance to ask him how these few corpses proved that almost six million people were murdered more than 500 miles away and three years to four months earlier. At a later meeting I tried to present him with copies of the USHMM descriptions of the operation of Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, and Dachau camps that do not claim mass executions took place in them. He refused to even pick up the papers.

As a side note: The USHMM description of Bergen-Belsen makes some surprising admissions. It acknowledges that less than 50,000 inmates died in the camp, all from disease and starvation caused by overcrowding and a lack of supplies. Ten's of thousands of these died in 1945 just months before it was occupied by the Allies and thirteen thousand died after Allied occupation. Of course the article does not mention that the lack of supplies was caused by Allied strafing and bombing of everything that moved in western Germany. Nor does it mention that Anne Frank was not killed but died of typhus in the camp hospital.

At our next meeting I will advise the group of this forum and this post and invite them to visit it and see what I had to say about them. I will also challenge them to support their position but advise them to try understand the holocaust storyline and its origins before they make a fool of themselves. Also, read the guidelines first.

The following is a brief description of the Holocaust. It is just the basic unembellished Holocaust story in its current form, ignoring previous versions. It is true to the story as I understand it, as much as possible exact and unbiased - unemotional. It is not Holocaust denial; it is not revisionism; it is just the "nuts and bolts" of story in brief.

Parts seem incredible or impossible but that is just the story. It's not something I added. I use "incredible" in the original sense of the word - not believable. In attempting to present the story accurately, I make statements as fact that are not necessarily my views.

What I'm trying to say is that this is the basic Holocaust storyline, but don't take anything I say as suggesting I'm stupid enough to believe it.

What Is the Holocaust?

The Holocaust is the allegation that during World War II the National Socialist government of Germany tried to kill everyone who they identified as a Jew. It is further claimed that this attempted genocide of Jews resulted in the death of 6,000,000 of their number.

When, where, and how did this happen? When, where, and how were 6,000,000 people murdered? This seems to be the place to start in understanding the Holocaust yet I was unable to find a clear tabulation of such information from Holocaust education organizations such as the United States Holocaust Memorial and Museum (USHMM) or Israel’s Yad Vashem. The only such list that I am aware of is from Raul Hilberg’s The Destruction of the European Jews. Table B-1, page 1219, of the 1985 edition of that work, is a summary of Holocaust deaths by camp or specific action. Five major groupings account for well over ninety percent of the victims. These categories are the Action Reinhardt killing centers, Einsatzgruppen executions, Auschwitz gas chambers, general deprivation in ghettos, and the Chelmno and Majdanek camps in Poland. I’ve added an “all other” to account for smaller numbers. The goupings are:

    Action Reinhardt (Treblinka, Belsec, Sobibor camps) – 1,500,000 gassing victims
    Einsatzgruppen, executions in towns and villages – 1,300,000 firing squad victims
    Auschwitz/ Birkenau – 1,000,000 mostly gassing victims
    Ghettorization&Occupation – 800,000 general deprivation victims
    Kulmhof/Chelmno and Lublin/Majdanek – 200,000 primarily gassing victims
    All other including the well known camps in Germany – 300,000 of various causes
    Total 5,100,000
The above total is short of the 6,000,000 but that doesn’t detract from the magnitude of the alleged crime.

Don't scrutinize the foregoing numbers for complete accuracy. They are just estimates by various researchers and methods. Despite claims that the Holocaust is well documented the opposite is true. There are very few holocaust related documents and most of those are subject to alternate interpretations. None of the executions whether by Einsatzgruppen, in gas chambers, or in the ghettos are clearly enumerated. There are no lists of victims. There is no count of the dead, not even a record of the number of times executions were carried out. The only documented deaths are from disease or other natural causes plus a few executions for disciplinary reasons.

This presentation is purposefully brief only the minimum information that is necessary to answer the questions of “when, where, and how” is presented.

Action Reinhardt Camps
Action Reinhardt with 1,500,000 victims is the largest of Hilberg’s categories. These victims were murdered in the death camps of Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor. Hilberg puts the respective deaths at 750,000, 550,000, and 200,000. Combined this is the most deadly Holocaust action. These three camps were located in what is today eastern Poland, not far from its current borders with Belarus and Ukraine. They began operation in March 1942 and were closed in the fall of 1943. These were pure extermination camps. Only prisoners needed to help run the camps were allowed to live. All others were executed immediately upon arrival. What is known about the operation of these camps is largely based on the reports of two Jews who claimed to have been forced laborers at Treblinka -Yankel Wiernik and Chil Rajchman.
In brief the operation was: Jews arrived in trains of twenty or more carloads, disembarked and were stripped of all possessions. The men were then separated from the women and children. Both groups were ordered to remove all clothes to take a shower. Instead they were then forced into a building where they were killed by a poisonous gas. Wiernik said it was diesel engine exhaust gas but Rajchman wasn’t sure. They were all dead within minutes and initially they were buried in large mass graves. In order to eliminate all evidence of this massive crime the later victims were cremated and the previously buried corpses were exhumed and also cremated. Since there were no crematory facilities at any of the Action Reinhardt camps open air cremation was used. The following is part of Rajchman’s description of the cremations:

“He [the “cremation expert”] had laid out more than thirty meters of railway gauge. Right on top of the ground a pair of concrete foundations were cast, both with a height of approximately 50 centimeters. … On top of the foundations six railway rails were placed, that was all. The expert ordered us to put women, particularly fat women, on the first layer on the roast, face down. The second layer could consist of whatever was brought – men, women or children – and so on, layer upon layer like a pyramid, up to a height of two meter.”
“… Then the “expert” ordered us to lay dry branches under the roast and to light them. Within a few minutes the fire would take so it was difficult to approach the crematorium from as far as fifty meters away.”

Wiernik provides a similar description of the cremation. His words were “The workers piled the corpses on the grate and set them on fire.” and “It turned out that bodies of women burned more easily than those of men. Accordingly, the bodies of women were used for kindling the fires.” The cremations resulted in only ashes leaving no recognizable human remains as evidence of the massive crime.
According to Holocaust historians, Belzec and Sobibor were operated the same way. There are very limited eye witness accounts of the operation of these camps. Apparently, the small number and lack of consistency in these accounts leads Holocaust scholars to the conclusion they were operated in the same manner as Treblinka. The United States Holocaust Museum and Memorial (USHMM) descriptions of operation of all three camps are brief but nearly identical.

Einsatzgruppen
The next largest category is the execution by firing squad – 1,300,000 victims. After Germany invaded the Soviet Union in June 1941 special squads called Einsatzgruppen -Operation Groups- rounded up Jews in towns and cities of Eastern Europe, marched them to the outskirts of town executed them and buried them in mass graves. Executions were carried out in groups of various sizes from a few individuals to groups of dozens, hundreds , or even thousands.
The best known execution of this type occurred at Babi Yar, a ravine on the outskirts of Kiev, Ukraine, where 33,000 of the city’s Jewish residents were executed and buried.
However, there are no mass graves to be examined.
In June 1942 Himmler ordered all evidence of the Einsatzgruppen executions destroyed. It is claimed that all bodies were exhumed and burned in a manner similar to the Treblinka cremations leaving absolutely no physical evidence that these million plus murder victims ever existed, not even in Babi Yar whose location is exactly known has any evidence of these murders been discovered.

Auschwitz/Birkenau
Auschwitz, located in what is now southern Poland, was the largest of the German concentration camps. It actually consisted of three camps – Auschwitz I, Auschwitz II (Birkenau), and Auschwitz III (Monowitz). Auschwitz II (Birkenau) was by far the largest of the three. It had the barracks that housed the majority of the inmates and also the four large crematoria/gas chambers.
Auschwitz is almost synonymous with the Holocaust. However, Hilberg found it was only the third most deadly of the major groupings. Here approximately 1,000,000 Jews were murdered in gas chambers between September 1941 and November 1944.
Despite claims of efficient mass murder methods, the so-called “machinery of death” was rather crude. Jews to be gassed were herded into rooms actually built as morgues – “leichenkellar” in German. These rooms had no plumbing thru which the poison gas was introduced. Specifically, they did not have the shower heads, fake or otherwise, often mentioned by Holocaust survivors. Instead, Zyclon B pellets were poured into the packed rooms through holes in the roofs or through windows. Hydrogen cyanide released from the pellets killed all occupants within minutes. Sondercommando workers entered the chambers immediately and carried the bodies to the crematoria located in the same building.
As previously noted there are absolutely no records of the exterminations at Auschwitz. Those deemed useful for labor were selected for registration in the camp and their lives and activities are well documented. All others were sent to the gas chambers. There is no indication that they were even counted. There is not even a record of how often the makeshift chambers were used.

Ghettorization & Occupation
Hilberg attributes 800,000 holocaust deaths to general deprivation primarily in ghettos established for Jews in all larger cities in Eastern Europe. Also, certain Jews from Germany proper were deported to Theresienstadt, a ghetto in the what is now the Czech Republic.
Ghettos existed pretty much from the beginning of German occupation until their retreat. Deaths resulted from disease caused by crowded conditions and general deprivation.

Kulmhof/Chelmno and Lublin/Majdanek
These two camps were similar to the Action Reinhardt camps. Majdanek comes up often the story but I know little about it. The same is true for the less often mentioned Chelmo. Since Hilberg claims 200,000 were killed in them but the USHMM has a death total of 600,000 there are obviously serious unanswered questions about them and there is not space in this summary to go into these questions.

All Others
The concentration camps in Germany proper are in the catch-all category of “All Other”. Total Jewish deaths in these camps were less than 150,000 . The majority of whom died of typhus in the last three months of the war as conditions throughout Germany and particularly these camps deteriorated due to Allied bombing. These were the camps liberated by the Western Allied forces in April and May 1945. The horrible conditions were filmed and used extensively in anti-German propaganda.
Again, there were a number of these camps but the limitations of this brief description does not permit further description.

Problems
I am trying to avoid holocaust denial but many parts of the story clearly violate natural law. Therefore they must be attributed to some supernatural being or force. To the religious that would be God or gods. To the non-religious it would simply be magic.
The first event that I came across that clearly violates natural law is the burning of corpses at Treblinka. It is totally inconsistent with natural law. Animal carcasses including human corpses will not burn as described.
Another such event is the ability of Sondercommando workers at Auschwitz to enter hydrogen cyanide filled chambers in to remove the bodies of Holocaust victims without themselves succumbing to the gas.
Yet another is the complete disappearance victims of the Einsatzgruppen shootings. The mass graves of these alleged victims just don’t exist and the excuse for their absence relies on the same impossible open air cremation tale that Wienik came up with for Treblinka.
There are numerous other incredible events in the story but most require some analysis to explain. The above just so obviously impossible.

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 715
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: A Discussion of the Holocaust with Friends

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 2 weeks ago (Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:38 am)

You provide a 'Brief description of the Holocaust' but a very short list of problems.

A general summary of additional revisionist points here: http://vho.org/Intro/GB/index.html#5

You may have a good reason for the following omissions, but I often take a different approach with my main "points" or "problems" against the mainstream narrative. It is in fact useful to point out the lack of excavations, but nobody [that you'll be talking to] can go do excavations and prove that wrong. They can always shoot back with "well, just because they haven't been found, doesn't mean they aren't there" etc

- You did not once mention the "Final Solution [to the Jewish problem]" which was a real policy that existed, yet if you did, you would have had the opportunity to point out that all of the documents define it as evacuation/resettlement/deportation. See: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12296

- You did not mention delousing to explain the Zyclon-B. I believe, Jean Claude Pressac himself claimed something like 95-98% of Zyclon-B was used for delousing. So, even if they did not use homicidal gas chambers, according to the standard story, they would have needed just as much Zyclon-B

- The "Sondercommando workers at Auschwitz ... succumbing to the gas" could easily be refuted by claiming they used gas masks. As shown here, some claimed they were used, some did not: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12262

- No mention of blue staining / prussian blue. Majdanek "homicidal gas chamber" had blue stains, but only the Auschwitz delousing chambers had them. Further, zyclon-B pellets take a long time to outgas. There are loads of threads on this, plus the Rudolf report

- I would mention the Treblinka excavations. There have been 3 excavations apparently (this is not counting Krege's GPR survey, which wasn't published). Graf & Mottogno describe the first two in their book: http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/ Search "Sturdy Colls" for more on that. Basically, there have been 3 excavations of 'huge mass graves' in allegedly "precisely known locations" ... but never have we been shown even 1% of this alleged 750,000

- You said the Sonderkommando immediately carried the gassed bodies to the Auschwitz crematoria. You could also mention that they used a 4x9 ft elevator. bonniwell2923 just made a thread on these elevators. Also see: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12300#p91654

- I would make sure to point out that, in those "all other camps" where it is claimed nobody was gassed, there are still testimonies of jews claiming to have witnessed gas chambers there. There are a compilation of quotes in the Leuchter report claiming there were gas chambers at these camps, and then other quotes saying there are not. So, there is no question that some people, in some camps, lied and said they saw homicidal gas chambers... we are simply told to believe that at [fewer than?] half of the camps where there were "homicidal Gas chamber" testimonies, there actually were homicidal gas chambers. See: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v10/v10p261_Leuchter.html (also see the "ridiculous testimony" thread with some examples of these testimonies: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7033&start=45 && also some quotes on the unreliability of testimony: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12170#p90773)

- You write "As previously noted there are absolutely no records of the exterminations at Auschwitz." This is true, however, you should mention that there are [incomplete] records of deaths at the camps. This would also help people understand why there were piles of bodies, because those photos are real, and a lot of people seem to think the piles of bodies proves that the nazis attempted to exterminate jews. Germar Rudolf has a table on this article, showing almost 300 thousand recorded deaths: http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndstats.html

- A "confession" is normally seen as a slam-dunk in a criminal case. It may behoove you to take the opportunity to point out, not only that nazis were tortured to "confess" (especially Hoess, there is a whole book on this in the Holocaust Handbooks) but also the sheer number of nazis who denied it, or said they had no idea that was going on ... until after the war. Not to mention the first "deniers" were a jew and French communist who were interned in camps. (I have a collection of quotes here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12287)


You will challenge them to support their position, but you have not asked any specific questions. A recent poster, when given challenges a month ago, just came back 2 days ago admitting they could not answer the challenges: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11953&start=15#p91632

You have joined this website in 2012, I assume you started questioning the Holocaust before that ... so it is not fresh in your memory (I started questioning it over 10 years ago) but when confronted with a question someone can not answer, it is more likely to cause cognitive dissonance. You may not be wanting to try that approach though, but I do think asking difficult questions is a good strategy, ask like 5-10 difficult questions: "If .... is true, then how come .... ?" or something

Recently I read this debate with Juergen Graf and an exterminationist. He asks some tough questions (although they are a bit wordy), it could possibly give you ideas, if that's a route you'd want to take. http://juergen-graf.vho.org/articles/hu ... ebate.html

:)
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2448
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: A Discussion of the Holocaust with Friends

Postby borjastick » 3 months 2 weeks ago (Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:48 am)

Hegwood

You may find that some of the group are cool towards you when next you meet and flat out refuse to discuss it again with you. The problem with asking people to justify their belief in the holocaust is that they don't really know why and certainly don't have your detailed knowledge of it. People just believe it. Trying to break that belief down is very difficult. I've tried several times and am always shocked at the look on their faces, it's almost as if I've just admitted to raping their 15 year old sister!
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

atomMan
Member
Member
Posts: 131
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:31 pm

Re: A Discussion of the Holocaust with Friends

Postby atomMan » 3 months 2 weeks ago (Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:02 am)

here is, i think, good piece of advice that i generally fail to follow myself ... it's not about the facts; you can shove facts down peoples throats all day long and any indoctrinated adult is likely to vomit them right back up - it's more about how you frame your argument

instead of beating people over the head with meaningless (to them) facts that are a direct assault to their ego, get them to challenge their own beliefs

"the number of bodies claimed to have been processed at x camp was impossible because hydrogen cyanide takes x time to produce morbidity and there was no proper method to introduce, circulate or heat the gas and drains in the floor and windows and... blah blah blah"

OR...

"hey, did you see this documentary by this Jewish kid?"

which do you think is less challenging to the adult ego? which do you think is more likely to plant a seed of doubt?

the approach is far more important than the facts in my opinion

when someone is being challenged face to face, their natural response is going to be to defend, not assimilate, but if you can convince that same person to consider information on their own time in a non-confrontational setting, their reaction may be very different and personally i think videos are a great tool as long as they appear to be more neutral in their execution

David Cole did it for me - once i saw his Auschwitz docu, my curiosity was invoked
help inform others by sharing the Jewish Holocaust Quiz

Hegwood
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:34 pm

Re: A Discussion of the Holocaust with Friends

Postby Hegwood » 3 months 2 weeks ago (Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:07 am)

Damn people I'm not trying to educate the group in true Twentieth Century history in thirty minutes!

I am trying to keep description short and informative in hopes of getting them to read it and at least consider an alternative to what they've been told . They do have other things to talk about and do, probably more interesting things.

I haven't even read Lamprecht's lengthy post yet.

Hegwood

Jim Russel
Member
Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:25 pm
Location: New Mexico

Re: A Discussion of the Holocaust with Friends

Postby Jim Russel » 3 months 2 weeks ago (Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:56 am)

Hegwood, Welcome to the world of the outcast heretic. Some of those people might never talk to you again. Maybe all of them. That's the world we live in. Almost everyone is brainwashed.

I was only 11 years old when it happened to me. It was after the 6-Day War and I was the only child in that Hillel Academy whose family belonged to a Reform synagogue. I told them that the Israeli Army was just the same as the German army under Hitler and they hated the Arabs just like Nazis hated the Jews. I've been a social outcast ever since.

It was the late 60s living with my parents and reading every issue of the New York Times, Saturday Review, and Commentary when I came to understand that the Holocaust story was impossible mostly because it seemed I was the only person in my world besides my father who kept his thoughts to himself who understood the magnitude of the 6 million number. And I asked if any of those 6 million had rebelled or tried to escape and they told me No they all went like sheep to their deaths after riding in trains hundreds of miles to walk into fake showers and be gassed to death. It was simply preposterous and people who believed that nonsense were stupid people.

David Duke in his 1998 book My Awakening supposedly says that the holocaust story first appeared in English encyclopedias in the late 1960s. It certainly wasn't mentioned by Churchill, Eisenhower, or De Gaulle in their autobiographies of WW II. I have My Awakening but haven't found the page number of that statement but it matches up with my memories that the holocaust story just seem to have appeared in the headlines after the 6-Day War and the reason given was that jews no longer had to be passive nebbish types like Woody Allen or degenerates like Lenny Bruce because the Israeli Army had shown the world that jews are strong.

You can find others of like mind on the internet. In face-to-face, maybe or maybe not. That's just the way it is for most of us. You might find that if you have any relationships with those people worth saving that you and them will agree to no longer bring up those matters and they won't either, unless they're willing to be open-minded and respectful in conversation between equals.

I've had to change my phone number and stop talking to a family member who is the only person in the world who talks to me like I'm a stupid person, and I can't remember ever being talked to that way by anyone else. I've withdrawn from this society because of the massive stupidity everywhere which I comment on by doing performance art in my front yard. Almost everyone who is brainwashed can experience something like physical pain when their mental equilibrium is challenged by truth you might show them. That pain is real, and so is the anger which it can trigger.

As a teenager I took solace in reading books by people who had similarly withdrawn from the worlds they lived in. Henry David Thoreau with Walden Pond and Civil Disobedience, and also Thomas Merton about writing about his conversion to catholicism and choosing to live in a monastery and then become an anti-war martyr because it now seems he was assassinated probably by the CIA for being a vocal opponent of the Viet Nam War.

Hegwood
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:34 pm

Re: A Discussion of the Holocaust with Friends

Postby Hegwood » 3 months 2 weeks ago (Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:06 pm)

Lamprecht,

After reading your earlier post I stand by my "quick" comment. I know I'm not going to educate anybody on the holohoax in thirty minutes. The best I can do is get them to read something truthful about it and getting them to read it means keeping it short.

I would certainly welcome your input if you can keep the length to about 2000 words. Less if possible. You are even invited to rewrite my whole "brief description". I would not be surprised if you did a better job. Writing, communicating in general, is one of my best skills.

Hegwood

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 715
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: A Discussion of the Holocaust with Friends

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 2 weeks ago (Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:32 pm)

Hegwood wrote:Lamprecht,

After reading your earlier post I stand by my "quick" comment. I know I'm not going to educate anybody on the holohoax in thirty minutes. The best I can do is get them to read something truthful about it and getting them to read it means keeping it short.

I would certainly welcome your input if you can keep the length to about 2000 words. Less if possible. You are even invited to rewrite my whole "brief description". I would not be surprised if you did a better job. Writing, communicating in general, is one of my best skills.

Hegwood
My response was long, but they were suggestions on things to add/remove and explanations why.

I debate the holocaust all the time, usually with people not very well versed, and the most common responses are (with common approaches I'll take):

- What about all of the documents? (point out none of the recorded deaths are from gassing, all of the "Final Solution" documents define it as resettlement/evacuation/deportation)
- What about the piles of bodies? (point out they are disease/starvation victims from allied bombs)
- What about all the testimonies? (point out most do not mention 'homicidal gas chambers', the ridiculous testimonies, and that some survivors deny the holocaust, testimonies of gassing [discounted by historians] at bergen-belsen, buchenwald, dachau, etc)
- What about the nazis who admitted it? (point out the nature of the trials, the nazis that denied it, the torture, etc)
- What about the zyclon-B? (95-98% used for delousing, according to JC Pressac)
- But Hitler/Nazis said they hated jews and wanted a "Final Solution"! ('final solution' documents, resettlement/deportation rather than extermination)

Like I said, your criticisms are legitimate, but some people WANT to believe, perhaps because they don't want to think they were deceived by people they trusted. Saying "these graves don't exist" simply because they have not been found, it does not follow, nor can these individuals you're sending this to actually go excavate.
Also, we know there are many news articles coming out "nazi mass grave found" etc. They are not from the camps of course, but often attributed to nazis ... even if testimony exonerates them, see a recent example: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12230

and of course there's the very common accusation of hating jews or being a nazi that i left out

Another thought, possibly point out that it is illegal to question the holocaust in many countries. Probably at the very end, after pointing out the major holes in the story.

Like I said, these are suggestions and I only ask suggest you think about them. There are a lot of go-to responses that I have personally experienced (listed above) that are not addressed. Although I do not know if it's just going to act as the beginning of a conversation.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 715
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: A Discussion of the Holocaust with Friends

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 2 weeks ago (Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:53 pm)

example, from my post:

- I would make sure to point out that, in those "all other camps" where it is claimed nobody was gassed, there are still testimonies of jews claiming to have witnessed gas chambers there. There are a compilation of quotes in the Leuchter report claiming there were gas chambers at these camps, and then other quotes saying there are not. So, there is no question that some people, in some camps, lied and said they saw homicidal gas chambers... we are simply told to believe that at [fewer than?] half of the camps where there were "homicidal Gas chamber" testimonies, there actually were homicidal gas chambers. See: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v10/v10p261_Leuchter.html (also see the "ridiculous testimony" thread with some examples of these testimonies: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7033&start=45 && also some quotes on the unreliability of testimony: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12170#p90773)


From yours (my addition in bold/underline):

All Others
The concentration camps in Germany proper are in the catch-all category of “All Other”. Total Jewish deaths in these camps were less than 150,000 . The majority of whom died of typhus in the last three months of the war as conditions throughout Germany and particularly these camps deteriorated due to Allied bombing. These were the camps liberated by the Western Allied forces in April and May 1945. The horrible conditions were filmed and used extensively in anti-German propaganda. Although there were survivors who claimed to have witnessed homicidal gassings at these camps (i.e. Dachau, Buchenwald, Bergen-Belsen....) historians today universally agree that prisoners weren't murdered in gas chambers at these camps.


That's just an example. So if someone says "b-b-but why would they just lie about gas chambers?" it does not really matter, since the mainstream story already reveals that some did lie about them. It's easier to believe the "Auschwitz gas chamber" testimonies are a lie, if the Dachau/Buchenwald/Bergen-Belsen "gas chamber" testimonies are acknowledged as such. :)


And then, under the "Problems" section, you can use the additional facts already pointed out to form another point. example:

Why should we believe jews were gassed at Birkenau, if none of the 10s of thousands of recorded deaths were from homicidal gas chambers, the majority of Birkenau testimonies do not mention gassings, the main testimonies disagree on main points, the iron cyanide traces are more comparable to random bricks in the camp than the delousing chambers, and other camps had "homicidal gas chamber" testimony that has been accepted by the mainstream historians to be false atrocity propaganda?

Although that's a long, drawn out question... it's a lot harder to answer than to make sense of:
Another such event is the ability of Sonderkommando workers at Auschwitz to enter hydrogen cyanide filled chambers in to remove the bodies of Holocaust victims without themselves succumbing to the gas.
(think: gas masks and gloves)
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 3299
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: A Discussion of the Holocaust with Friends

Postby Hektor » 3 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:24 am)

borjastick wrote:Hegwood

You may find that some of the group are cool towards you when next you meet and flat out refuse to discuss it again with you. The problem with asking people to justify their belief in the holocaust is that they don't really know why and certainly don't have your detailed knowledge of it. People just believe it. Trying to break that belief down is very difficult. I've tried several times and am always shocked at the look on their faces, it's almost as if I've just admitted to raping their 15 year old sister!

People believe it, because apparently anybody else does do that as well. And then there is the omnipresence of the Holocaust-narrative in the cultural fields like media, movies, educational systems. It's also believed because nobody challenges it and people don't know about the problems with the narrative. They are also gullible to believe government statements on things, ignoring that a lot of what governments disseminate is simply propaganda. One should point people that the first fresh information on "atrocities in German concentration camps" doesn't stem from ordinary soldiers, but from Psychological Warfare Units. This isn't even in dispute, but it's not mentioned when quoting exactly that information.

You won't convince someone that believes everything the government or authority figures tell him, but someone more critical may realize that this Holocaust is another government psy-ops on the public.

Hegwood
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:34 pm

Re: A Discussion of the Holocaust with Friends

Postby Hegwood » 3 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:19 am)

.
Jim Russel,

Thanks for the response, though its not exactly encouraging.

If my memory serves me correct, David Irving claims the holocaust story was largely constructed about 1970. He says the word "holocaust" begins showing up in mass media around that time and the number begins an asymptotic growth about 1972.

I'm not sure what's going to happen next with me. My acquaintances seem somewhat intimidated. At the last meeting only one of the previously active participants in the earlier discussions was there. He seemed a little uncomfortable so I didn't even bring up the subject, this forum, or this post. I'll see what the next few weeks brings,

Hegwood

Jim Russel
Member
Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:25 pm
Location: New Mexico

Re: A Discussion of the Holocaust with Friends

Postby Jim Russel » 3 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:50 pm)

Hegwood, Depressing? I'm very interested in the biological reasons that explain why most individuals stick with herds and groups while others follow their own paths even it it makes them one of a kind. Galileo was such a person but he was made to crawl on his hands and knees to beg forgiveness and even so he died while living under house arrest. Thoreau was such a person and he had friends among the other Transcendentalists but it seems he most likely died a virgin. David Irving and David Duke, ditto, both having spent much time in prison because of their heterodox beliefs.

I'm very interested in learning more about the very rare exceptional individuals who deviate from the herd, and I'm very interested not so much in the hard facts of what lies were told about WW II but the whys and hows of the brainwashing of most of the world for at least fifty years with a preposterous blatant lie and also a blood libel against the German people that so far at least has been challenged by very few Germans and this brainwashing is of no interest to 99% of the public.

My understanding is that it would go against the rules here to take a wider view of the holocaust lie by exploring these whys and the hows unless in direct reply to an existing thread, such as me to you right now pondering the almost universal brainwashing around us. Only telescopes and microscopes are the allowed tools here, with no panoramic videos and time-lapse photography allowed to frame the holocaust lie in the framework of the world's economic and informational structures, particularly the power politics and sociological and psychological facts operant.

Kevin MacDonald has The Occidental Observer blog where there is free reign to discuss the Jewish control of things. David Duke talks about it almost every day and he's a person I greatly respect. As far as holocaust revisionist goes the message board RODOH seems to allow broad views of the whys and hows of the brainwashing on that topic and many others.

And I searched a PDF of My Awakening and can't find him saying there what I said above. But in Chapter 15 he gives 1970 (same as your David Irving recollection) as the year when the story took hold in US newspapers after very little in the 50s and 60s. I'm not afraid of talking with white nationalists or even national socialists because they seem to be the only identifiable groups in which ordinary non-intellectual normal people with values I share are willing to explore the causes behind the massive brainwashing of our society.

Remember also the old saying from somewhere in eastern or middle europe that the man who never lies has no friends. Loneliness can cause physical pain and lead to death either from heartbreak or suicidal behavior. It should give you some hope to know that I've survived these past 50 years despite being an outcast and heretic the entire time.

Where else would I go to post about the JQ? http://www.unz.com is a place that since last summer at least allows free and open discussion, and they now allow comments to be posted without registration, same as theoccidentalobserver blog. And almost every day I check Russia Insider has been having lots of good articles on the jewish question. Diversity Macht Frei, VDARE, National Vanguard are a few other places if you dare to go down this rabbit hole.

Hegwood
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:34 pm

Re: A Discussion of the Holocaust with Friends

Postby Hegwood » 3 months 1 week ago (Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:41 am)

Jim Russel,

I don't consider your post depressing, just a warning. Perhaps even a mild warning.

Don't put me in a class with such heavyweights as Thoreau, Irving, and Duke. I do at least share the characteristic of doing my own thinking, not just accepting what I hear or read. That doesn't mean I will automatically confront someone else with whom I disagree. The confrontation that led the original post is out of character for me. It is at least a decade overdue.

I believe in a rational world, no gods, spirits, magic, or miracles. The world behaves according to natural laws. There are not exceptions, that includes holocaust storyline. I am not arrogant enough to think I understand everything but I do know some things.

Apparently I am not as astute as you are. I can see how the magnitude of the six million number would raise doubts but I'm sorry to say it did not with me.

Until about 15 years ago I believed the holocaust happened. Only when trying to find out why anyone would deny it did I find out that I really didn't know anything about it. When I found out what the storyline was it was all over.

I still remember the sentence that caused me to realize something was wrong with the story. The USHMM description of the operation of Treblinka states " In late 1942 and 1943, the Jewish forced laborers had to exhume the already buried bodies and burn them in huge trenches on makeshift “ovens” made of rail track." That sentence makes absolutely no sense. There is no part of a rail road that could be used to make anything like an "oven". It was finding out what the writer of that sentence really meant the very quickly destroyed the whole story.

Hegwood

Hegwood
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:34 pm

Re: A Discussion of the Holocaust with Friends

Postby Hegwood » 3 months 1 week ago (Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:04 pm)

I have just informed several members of my social group of the existence of this post and invited them to see what I have to say about them.

They are invited to defend their belief that the holocaust happened.

Let's see what they have to say.

Hegwood

User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2448
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: A Discussion of the Holocaust with Friends

Postby borjastick » 3 months 1 week ago (Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:43 pm)

Hegwood wrote:I have just informed several members of my social group of the existence of this post and invited them to see what I have to say about them.

They are invited to defend their belief that the holocaust happened.

Let's see what they have to say.

Hegwood


I would leave it be if I were you. They will feel awkward and pressured and tbh they probably know slightly less than F--k All on the subject. Plus you have to add in the issue of their beliefs being rocked badly and holed beneath the water line. They will never understand you and it will really alter the way they see you.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest