A Discussion of the Holocaust with Friends

[Lamprecht]

I have just informed several members of my social group of the existence of this post and invited them to see what I have to say about them.

They are invited to defend their belief that the holocaust happened.

Let's see what they have to say.

Hegwood

Did you mention the $100,000 reward?

THE HOLOCAUST ARCHAEOLOGY HOAX
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11953

also http://www.nafcash.com/

[Hektor]

I have just informed several members of my social group of the existence of this post and invited them to see what I have to say about them.
They are invited to defend their belief that the holocaust happened.
Let's see what they have to say.

I would leave it be if I were you. They will feel awkward and pressured and tbh they probably know slightly less than F--k All on the subject. Plus you have to add in the issue of their beliefs being rocked badly and holed beneath the water line. They will never understand you and it will really alter the way they see you.

A solid 90% of people do indeed know bokkerol on the subject of the Holocaust and merely will parrot what they pick up in the media and movies.
Those that care to find out more than a few tidbits and talking points are far less than 10%. And those are the only worth reaching in the first place.

The point that sits best most of the time is the "Isn't it strange that they jail people questioning the Holocaust in some countries". I bet that got more people suspcicious than crematoria calculations, document forgery discussions, chemical analysis and the like. Of course the later is also important to respond to interest in the subject and to round of the picture, but most people aren't that technically inclined.
Of course they don't anyway argue with this, it's mostly "the eyewitnesses", "confessions" and "pictures GI's have taken in Belsen". But those issues can be dealt with.

[Pia Kahn]

Hedgewood,

I think you should consider that some of your friends may actually agree with you or have doubts, but they most likely would never express this opinion in public.

In my opinion, you must either talk to them in private individually or make them participate in online discussion groups anonymously. If you invite them to discuss with you here without hiding their identity, I predict that none of them will show up.

How do you create a crack in the matrix? What issues should you point out in order to open their mind?

1. The persecution and suppression of dissident thought on the holocaust - and no other historical topic - is highly suspicious.

2. The images of corpses do not prove gassings ... Explain to them why.

3. Witness testimony and confessions are not reliable evidence.

If you come this far, then the rest will follow. I usually talk about the holocaust in this order. If your friend doesn't recognize that locking up people for disbelief in the holocaust is a real problem, then - in my experience - you don't have to waste your time talking to him/her. Then, he/she is a fundamentalist who probably will never change his/her mind.

These are my two cents.

[TimeTraveler]

Like Hektor said, When I talk to people about it. I only get into the pictures, eyewitnesses and the confessions. Because those three are the main reasons why the masses believe in the story anyway.
All the technical stuff is a do deep for a newbie. I might also talk about the Auschwitz 1 chimney.

[Hegwood]

Thanks for all responses,

My first objective is to quickly inform the group of the holocaust storyline. That is the purpose of the "Holocaust in Brief" presentation. First I have to get them to read it. I know they won't read anything that is holocaust denial so, I clearly state that the facts presented are indeed part of the current holocaust story. Since they indeed don't know "bokkerol on the subject" they are not convinced that I am feeding them the actual holocaust storyline. If they once realize that is indeed what they are being fed they should at least have doubts.

I try to avoid getting bogged down in a discussion of the pictures of corpses by pointing out that even the holocaust supporters, I.e. the USHMM, agree that they were the victims of disease and lack of supplies in the last days of the war. They were not intentionally killed as part of a Jewish genocide. In any event these bodies were discovered at least four months after and five hundred miles from when and where the genocidal killings supposedly took place, hence they are irrelevant.

True, technical arguments won't get you anywhere with someone who doesn't want to listen. That is why I put a lot of emphasis on the impossibility of piling up corpses and just setting them on fire. It is claimed that masses amounts of fuel were not necessary. To me that is not a technical argument but simply total nonsense. Furthermore, there are no simple "oh well he forgot this or that" explanations.


Hegwood

[Hegwood]

My acquaintances lived up to every one's expectation's except mine, It seems no one even checked out my post on this website. They choose to avoid it, to act deaf and blind.

For a group who claims they shun any dogma (it is an atheist group) in favor of reason they behaved as if the holocaust is dogma, their new religion.

Given their acceptance of almost any idea promoted by liberals as if it was dogma, I have always had my doubts about their sincerity. They have now shown how hypocritical they are, so it hasn't been a wasted experience.

In a previous post I refrained from describing one individual as behaving like a blubbering idiot. I now think that description applies to several individuals.

While such a statement could be interpreted as a violation of the use civil language I ask the moderators to allow it to stand. Perhaps I can goad some into at least checking out the forum.


Hegwood

[Lamprecht]

For a group who claims they shun any dogma (it is an atheist group) in favor of reason they behaved as if the holocaust is dogma, their new religion.

I am pretty much an atheist myself, but I will tell you "Atheists" on the whole are far from the "free thinkers" they claim to be.

Check out my old post "Is the Holocaust a religious belief?"
viewtopic.php?t=7134#p52463

At least you tried... "There are none so blind as those who refuse to see."

[borjastick]

I'm sorry for you Hegwood as this must be a large disappointment for you. People who you thought were close friends, with a deep connection among you have been found wanting. They will never view you the same as before, I know from bitter experience.

I found the same happened to me when I got divorced. People who I had known since childhood shunned me as if I had aids or something. The same goes for the holocaust situation. I mentioned some months ago about being in an argument that got physical last summer concerning my thoughts on the holocaust. This happened at a dinner with friends here in my village. But it turned nasty when one of them wouldn't accept anything I said even though he clearly had a very loose grasp on the facts of the holocaust, as evidence by the claim that us western nations liberated Auschwitz!

We all still live here and are very pleasant to each other but there is an underlying feeling, a mood of dislike of little old me and that has only happened since that night.

If I am honest I don't really give a shit. These people are superficially nice but underneath are dullards and unpleasant. No skin off my nose.

I'm not telling you how to act but perhaps best to write it off to experience and move on without these people. Maybe one of them will delve in his own time and come to you for answers. They are gripped by a lifetime of brainwashing regarding the holocaust and it takes a great leap to remove oneself from the grip...

[Hegwood]

Other activities kept me from attending several weekly meet ups of the group of acquaintances who are the subject of this post. On one occasion a little over a week ago I was able to attend for a short time. I was curious to see if anyone showed any signs of newly found "intelligence" on the holohoax. Nothing was obvious and nothing was said. I didn't bring up the matter either. I just observed and participated in other conversations.

It is certain that no one had any information they wanted to confront me with. The individual that I most directly confronted with this idiotic story still owes me an explanation of how he knows more about the holocaust, particularly what happened at the alleged "Treblinka Death Camp", than what the "eye witnesses survivors" reported. I doubt he wants to voluntarily try to explain.

The most vociferous objector to holocaust denial wasn't there. From the prior conversations it is apparent that at that time he still believed the original PSYOPs propaganda put out by the Army in 1945. If he did any research at all he should be embarrassed by his prior outburst. I wonder if that kept him from showing up.

Borjastick's post pretty well described the attitudes members of the group. A notable exception is that we associate on a strictly voluntary basis. They are neither close friends nor are we members of a village who are forced to deal with each other regularly. They are also above average in both intelligence and tolerance of others though perhaps not so much so as they would claim to be.

Don't feel sorry for me. I have no regrets and actually feel pretty good for having at least tried to inform them. Certainly some good will come from the attempt but at this time the amount is unknown.

Hegwood

[borjastick]

Hegwood you are doing the right thing by not stoking the fires of aggression. You may remember my issue last year at a dinner party here in my village where I was manhandled by a drunk who decided I needed to be educated about the truth of deniers and the holocaust.

Well, tomorrow that person is 65 and though he and his wife have moved from the village have asked me to attend his birthday lunch. Also present will be the host of last year's dinner party. A stroppy woman who is generally only interested in her own voice and is usually not talking much to me anyway. Really I am a nice chap...

So I look forward to the birthday buffet tomorrow. I doubt if they will bring the subject up and certainly I cannot be arsed to educate halfwits any longer; a decision I took later last year.

Anyway we are both going through similar situations and I wish you well with yours.

[Hegwood]

About two weeks ago I had further holocaust discussions with acquaintances. These discussions were with members of the same organization as those referred to in the original post of this thread but in a different setting . Only a few individuals were in attendance at both. With one exception, as far as I could tell, the members of this group were unaware of the original discussions of a few months ago.

The discussion was totally unplanned. During our meeting several individuals began talking about the holocaust. I tried to refrain from starting anything but after a while I couldn't take it any longer and had to have my say.

I ask them if they believed in magic or miracles, stating that if believed the holocaust story they had to believe in one or the other. Without one or the other it could not have happened. And, since I do not believe in either, I know the whole thing is a hoax. (Of course those are not my exact words.)

One individual had visited one of the former labor camps in Germany and because of that claimed he knew the holocaust happened. I'm not sure when that was or what he saw but I pointed out that no one not even the holocaust promoters consider any of camps in Germany to be sites where Jews were exterminated. The Jewish genocide is alleged to have taken place over five hundred mile to the east and had ended at least four months before Allies forces entered those camps. Accordingly, they could not have witnessed anything relevant.

Another issue was the lack of mass graves of the alleged victims of the Einsatzgrupen executions. Someone thought they could provide evidence of these graves. I ask that they show me. My only condition was that it could not contain only the bodies of military aged men The holocaust claims genocide, the murder of men, women, and children, and should be able to demonstrate such.

Overall the reception was much better than the one I received from the prior group.

Two members even said they were going to send me proof. It's been two weeks and I haven't heard from them yet but then they do have an impossible task. I can wait.

As a former believer, I can understand their difficulty in trying to prove the holocaust happened. I actually tried to do the same thing. So I'm thinking about offering my help. Perhaps I can explain approach, what evidence I did find and why none of it held up to scrutiny. They may think they can find the errors of my ways.

Hegwood

[Lamprecht]

Another issue was the lack of mass graves of the alleged victims of the Einsatzgrupen executions

The issue with this one is that there are all sorts of mass graves around Europe blamed on the Nazis. They could be NKVD graves, or something from before WWII, but they're generally blamed on Nazis. Let's also not forget Einsatzgruppen did exist, and also did kill people. There was no "KIll every jew you can get your hands on" policy as alleged, but doubtless many communist partisans were Jewish.

Plus there's the whole "well, we don't know exactly where the graves are, Eastern Europe is a big place" in comparison to the concentration camps, where they supposedly know exactly where the graves are, down to the meter!


Always a good reminder:

Study: People Don't Change Their Minds, Even When Proven Wrong
viewtopic.php?t=12439

[Hannover]

Lamprecht:

The issue with this one is that there are all sorts of mass graves around Europe blamed on the Nazis. They could be NKVD graves, or something from before WWII, but they're generally blamed on Nazis. Let's also not forget Einsatzgruppen did exist, and also did kill people. There was no "KIll every jew you can get your hands on" policy as alleged, but doubtless many communist partisans were Jewish.

Plus there's the whole "well, we don't know exactly where the graves are, Eastern Europe is a big place" in comparison to the concentration camps, where they supposedly know exactly where the graves are, down to the meter!

True enough, the Einsatzgruppen did legally execute those who fought as non-uniformed terrorist / 'partisans'.
Various Jews & communists, too cowardly to enlist in real armies, were a large part of these terrorist groups.

The fact is that there are no huge mass graves to be shown is indicative of the limits of these legal executions.

But of course, Jews have predictably made absurd claims about the Einsatzgruppen which have simply blown up in their faces. *

Recall the claim that 34,000 Jews were shot into a ravine at Babi Yar, Ukraine. Excavations of the alleged mass grave site found absolutely nothing whatsoever. NOTHING.

There are other places where mass graves are alleged which are said to be due to mass shootings by the Germans, but as has been shown over & over again, those alleged mass graves can't even be shown to contain real human remains at all. Just look the claims in the laughable book, 'Holocaust by Bullets'. We only see places where mass graves are alleged, not real, excavated mass graves of any kind.
They don't dare excavate, they know they won't find what they claim.

Frankly, it's complete bullshit as usual.

There have been numerous & very real mass graves that were the result of communist USSR mass shootings, recall Katyn and many others.
Those sites actually have been excavated and the human remains shown and analyzed.

The fact is that Jews say they know exactly where millions upon millions of human remains are located, yet those remains cannot be shown to exist.

* The fraudulent 'holocau$t' Industry now claims that ca. 2,000,000 Jews were shot by the Einsatzgruppen into huge pits, so, anyone, please SHOW us the actual excavations, the enormous mass graves, & remains that are claimed to exist, their locations are allegedly known.
Is that:
100 graves of 20,000?
200 graves of 10,000?
400 graves of 5,000?
500 graves of 4,000?
1000 graves of 2000?
2000 graves of 1000?

The same is true for the alleged 'gas chambers' exterminations, same lies, over & over.

Sobibor ‘monument’ supposedly over the remains of 250,000 Jew, actual remains of the alleged 250,000 cannot be shown.


Alleged “ash pond” for an alleged 1.1M Jew remains at Auschwitz, however these alleged remains cannot be shown to exist.


Alleged location of Treblinka mass graves / remains of 900,000 Jews according to Treblinka officials, no alleged remains exist.


No alleged human remains of millions to be seen in allegedly known locations, no 'holocaust'.

- Hannover

[Hegwood]

If a squad of soldiers came into any village or town in the world, rounded up anywhere between ten and a thousand individuals marched them out of town shot and buried them then by the next day almost everyone in that town would know where they were buried. Not only that but they would have told their children and that location would be easily found today.

Only if they loaded them on trucks and transported them miles away would they have a chance of concealing their crime. And that chance is very small. Even in the most remote parts of Eastern Europe a strange truck would not go unnoticed, the sound of gunfire carries a long way, and a freshly dug of even ten people would not go unnoticed until it was overgrown,

Claiming the location of these graves is unknown is pure "b s".

Hegwood

[Hektor]

Like Hektor said, When I talk to people about it. I only get into the pictures, eyewitnesses and the confessions. Because those three are the main reasons why the masses believe in the story anyway.
All the technical stuff is a do deep for a newbie. I might also talk about the Auschwitz 1 chimney.

The arguments have to be processable for the person they are told to. Pics, statements and some other facts are. The emergence of the Holocaust narrative and presence and role of Psychological Warfare units in the early phase is also something that can alarm the newbie.

The chemistry of Zyklon B, cremation technology and some other issues might be too cryptic for many. But one can hint to it for further studying.
It's important to plant some seeds of doubt, so a newbie will start to discover to what extent he has been lied to.