Holocaust debate graphics / Informative pictures

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Re: Holocaust debate graphics / Informative pictures

Postby cold beer » 6 months 1 week ago (Mon May 13, 2019 2:50 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:If you want to get irritated by the word "persecution" (used by CODOH and also Germar Rudolf, and doubtless many others) that's your issue.


Your reply is too drawn out for me to do anything other than give a general reply, which for the most part will be a reiteration.
Before i do let me say that you, actually both of us, are committed to our opposing views so it makes little sense to string this out much further.
For me there's no logic to offering up a persecution theme based on knowing that some of the Jews were treated unjustly.
Like any other group, bystanders are caught in the buzz saw of war so to speak, it's just a fact of war.
You won't hear the jews, the governments of the USA, England, the criminals of the former USSR etc. etc. etc. use any such qualifiers when spreading their version of history, which we all know, are lies.
It's like a white person who always feels the need to say in conversation... "I'm not a racist" and doesn't consider the implications when it's members of white race and the white race only that offer this up.
I don't as a European want to help labels Europeans as THE racists and THE persecutors, which is what that will do.
If you want to do this favor for the liars, apparently there's nothing I can say to persuade you otherwise.
An unintentional as it may be, there's no shortage of people out there saying and doing things that are counter productive.

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Re: Holocaust debate graphics / Informative pictures

Postby cold beer » 6 months 1 week ago (Mon May 13, 2019 3:10 pm)

As far as Germar Rudolph, this is the second time you've used his name as some sort of support for your view, you've even added an emoji for crying out loud!
He's a qualified chemist, but that doesn't qualify him any more than anyone else when it come to this.
I trust my own judgement in matters of common sense and I never use an emoji and/or name dropping to emphasize that I don't.
The only way that I have an issue, is if common sense is an issue.
I'm not the adult using emojis, you are.

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Re: Holocaust debate graphics / Informative pictures

Postby Lamprecht » 6 months 1 week ago (Mon May 13, 2019 3:25 pm)

We agree certain events happened. You get emotionally distraught to hear someone refer to these specific events as "persecution"
Ok
The image is just there to explain what events which are alleged to have occurred are denied by "deniers" and which are not.

If you say "jews WERE NEVER PERSECUTED by Nazis" the person reading will assume you deny that Jews were sent to camps, or other things which absolutely did occur.

I see literally no reason to confuse people.
Even if you believe everything which happened to jews was justified and rational, you are not helping anything by whining about the use of that specific term.

Go ahead and make a better version of the image. I doubt you could.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Holocaust debate graphics / Informative pictures

Postby cold beer » 6 months 1 week ago (Mon May 13, 2019 4:43 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:We agree certain events happened. You get emotionally distraught to hear someone refer to these specific events as "persecution"
Ok
The image is just there to explain what events which are alleged to have occurred are denied by "deniers" and which are not.

If you say "jews WERE NEVER PERSECUTED by Nazis" the person reading will assume you deny that Jews were sent to camps, or other things which absolutely did occur.

I see literally no reason to confuse people.
Even if you believe everything which happened to jews was justified and rational, you are not helping anything by whining about the use of that specific term.

Go ahead and make a better version of the image. I doubt you could.


Here's a far better way to to state it, just in case Germar doesn't have time to hold your hand...

"Revisionists don't claim that jews weren't put in labor camps.
That's just another holocaust lie."

Plain and simple without the need to pander!

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Re: Holocaust debate graphics / Informative pictures

Postby Lamprecht » 6 months 1 week ago (Mon May 13, 2019 5:04 pm)

It's not about Germar specifically, I pointed him out because he is the source of the text. Remember, the CODOH about page explicitly states:
"We understand perfectly well that the Hitlerian regime was anti-Semitic and persecuted Jews and others. We understand many peoples, European Jews among them, experienced unfathomable tragedies in Europe during World War II."
Source: https://codoh.com/about/

It seems that you, Mr Beer, are the ONLY "Holocaust revisionist" that says "No Jew was every persecuted by the Third Reich" - you're the exception here, and yet as far as I am aware (please, correct me if I am wrong) every single revisionist who has actually written books on the subject accepts that the Nazis "persecuted" Jews.

You think you're defending White people here, but you're not. By denying that Jews were persecuted, you're making revisionism seem absurd. And you're not even denying specific instances of persecution, you're just whining like a child about the alleged implications.
There is no implication that White people are inherently evil, or that Jews are inherently benevolent. That's something you're inventing.

Since you, Mr Beer, remain literally the only person who calls themselves a revisionist that denies any Jews were persecuted by the Third Reich, I see no reason to change the image. You're welcome to make your own image and post it in the thread, rather than continue to post childish grumbling about the use of the term "persecuted" to explain the treatment of Jews by the 3rd Reich. :)
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Holocaust debate graphics / Informative pictures

Postby cold beer » 6 months 1 week ago (Mon May 13, 2019 8:03 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:
It seems that you, Mr Beer, are the ONLY "Holocaust revisionist" that says "No Jew was every persecuted by the Third Reich" - you're the exception here, and yet as far as I am aware (please, correct me if I am wrong) every single revisionist who has actually written books on the subject accepts that the Nazis "persecuted" Jews.

I never said anything of the nature and you know it, but you're resorting to strawman arguments nevertheless.
Those holohoaxsters have concocted the most racist lies in history.
I say don't pander, the holohoaxsters certainly don't, so why do you?
They don't start their presentations to school children with..."I know Christians suffered greatly under Jewish Communism, millions murdered by the NKVD"

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Re: Holocaust debate graphics / Informative pictures

Postby Lamprecht » 6 months 1 week ago (Mon May 13, 2019 8:16 pm)

I never said anything of the nature
So you agree with CODOH & Germar Rudolf (and, certainly, other publishing revisionists) that Jews were, in fact, persecuted by the Third Reich.

Then why object to individuals pointing out that revisionists do not deny this?

I say don't pander, the holohoaxsters certainly don't, so why do you?
They don't start their presentations to school children with..."I know Christians suffered greatly under Jewish Communism, millions murdered by the NKVD"
No, they start it with "Some people deny the Holocaust. All those photos of piles of bodies? They say it's photoshop. Auschwitz? They claim it was a summer camp. Eyewitness testimony? Those deniers claim they they made it all up, every last one of them!"

They say these lies, and get away with it. All the time.

Yeah, the whole point of the image is to explain to those who have this ridiculous view of "Holocaust deniers" that we do not in fact deny that Nazis had policies against Jews, put them in camps, and that people died in these camps.

I've debated the topic for over 10 years, with more people than I can count. Do you know how many times I've had to explain:
"No, I do not deny that Auschwitz existed. No, I do not deny that people died in the camps. No, I do not deny that they had crematoria in the camps. No, I do not believe all of those piles of bodies are fake. No, I don't deny ______" etc

It's really irritating to repeat myself over and over again. That image has helped simplify things when people ask stupid questions like "So you're saying Hitler had nothing against Jews?"

You could post a better image, but you haven't. Hmmmmmm


If you disagree with my approach, I suggest this thread instead:


Best and worst / least successful arguments
viewtopic.php?t=12430
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Holocaust debate graphics / Informative pictures

Postby cold beer » 6 months 1 week ago (Mon May 13, 2019 8:29 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:
I never said anything of the nature
So you agree with CODOH & Germar Rudolf (and, certainly, other publishing revisionists) that Jews were, in fact, persecuted by the Third

That's not the point!
What does it take to get that across?


Lamprecht wrote:If you disagree with my approach, I suggest this thread instead:
Best and worst / least successful arguments
viewtopic.php?t=12430


Unlike you I rely on my myself in matters of common sense.
In other words I like my own opinion, I don't need others to formulate it for me like you apparently do.
If you had an opinion you wouldn't need a link to it.

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Re: Holocaust debate graphics / Informative pictures

Postby Lamprecht » 6 months 1 week ago (Mon May 13, 2019 8:45 pm)

That's not the point!
That is the point though. That's why it's included in the graphic, rather than to imply that "Whites = evil, Jews = good" as you are suggesting.

Unlike you I rely on my myself in matters of common sense.
In other words I like my own opinion, I don't need others to formulate it for me like you apparently do.
If you had an opinion you wouldn't need a link to it.
It's clear that you're distraught for some reason.

First you asked:
Why would any revisionist offer up the notion that jews were persecuted?

Answer: Because it's a matter of historical record, and it's useful to start a debate by distinguishing what is disputed, and what is not.

And you have essentially admitted it. So you're saying, revisionists should simply ignore facts that you find inconvenient? I don't agree, but you do you :)
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Holocaust debate graphics / Informative pictures

Postby cold beer » 6 months 1 week ago (Mon May 13, 2019 9:01 pm)

I read your post in that link ( at first I though you were linking me to Germar Rudolph or someone else)
In it you select what you feel are the most effect arguments....don't bother with this fact it won't work etc.
You don't solely base your approach on what is fact and what isn't, like you try to insist here with me by saying that I deny it.
You know who you sound like when you do that don't you?
I feel strongly that offering up that persecution theme is ineffective, exactly what you do in that post with particular facts/subjects.
Last edited by cold beer on Mon May 13, 2019 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Holocaust debate graphics / Informative pictures

Postby cold beer » 6 months 1 week ago (Mon May 13, 2019 9:22 pm)

Here is a link to a new thread.
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12453
A congresswomen acknowledges the persecution of the jews in the 'holocaust'.
She uses that exact phrase and what happens?
They label her an anti-semite, because she talks about the suffering of her own people too.
This is a constant.
That type of approach feeds the beast, you're dealing with a narcissism that's completely unique to anything else.

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Re: Holocaust debate graphics / Informative pictures

Postby Hannover » 6 months 1 week ago (Mon May 13, 2019 9:53 pm)

Gents:

I think the most important point about "persecution" is that Germany's treatment of Jews was no worse than the US treatment of Japanese-Americans, or the treatment of political prisoners by the communist USSR in the gulags.

In fact, Germany did less, much less to those considered enemies than what the Allies did.

There's nothing wrong in acknowledging the persecution of Jews, while acknowledging the much worse persecution of others by the Allies.

Also consider the use of A-bombs and regular munitions on non-military targets in Japan and the targeting of German civilians by the Allies via the horrific Allied bombing campaigns which were initiated long before Germany was forced to retaliate.
Now those were some serious "persecutions".

- Hannover

If the religiously faithful True Believers are so sure that millions of Jews were murdered, then why do they ask Revisionists such dumb questions like "so then, what happened to them?"
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Holocaust debate graphics / Informative pictures

Postby borjastick » 6 months 1 week ago (Tue May 14, 2019 1:35 am)

The Nuremberg laws were clearly designed to persecute, target and abuse jews.

The argument would then be, did they deserve it? I would argue they did to some extent or other. That doesn't mean a linear connection and proof of six million dead in an industrialised mass murder machine.

Proof of latter or lack thereof is what we are all about here isn't it? I seek truth about holocaust claims and proof it happened. I have yet to find that proof.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Holocaust debate graphics / Informative pictures

Postby cold beer » 6 months 1 week ago (Tue May 14, 2019 6:14 am)

From my experience I'll compare what the audience's reaction (AR) would be to the two competing approaches:

"The Jews were treated unjustly and persecuted no one would deny that they suffered greatly"
AR: "So then why are you upsetting people with your anti-semetism, I don't want to hear a word of your ludicrous denier nonsense, it doesn't matter if it's 6 million jews or just 6 jews."

"The claim that revisions deny jews were put in camps and that they deny that there were hundreds that died in the camps as Germany collapsed is a outright lie, meant to silence the more important and well documented lies of the holocaust lobby."
AR: "Racist! But I wonder what about those other lies he's referring to."

Stress the fact that the public has been lied to, but don't counteract it with a persecution theme.
It makes it sound like a confession, like you are guilty of something,
You're not confessing anything, you're pursuing truth and the right to speak truth.

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Re: Holocaust debate graphics / Informative pictures

Postby Lamprecht » 6 months 1 week ago (Tue May 14, 2019 7:45 am)

cold beer wrote:From my experience I'll compare what the audience's reaction (AR) would be to the two competing approaches:

"The Jews were treated unjustly and persecuted no one would deny that they suffered greatly"
AR: "So then why are you upsetting people with your anti-semetism, I don't want to hear a word of your ludicrous denier nonsense, it doesn't matter if it's 6 million jews or just 6 jews."

"The claim that revisions deny jews were put in camps and that they deny that there were hundreds that died in the camps as Germany collapsed is a outright lie, meant to silence the more important and well documented lies of the holocaust lobby."
AR: "Racist! But I wonder what about those other lies he's referring to."

Stress the fact that the public has been lied to, but don't counteract it with a persecution theme.
It makes it sound like a confession, like you are guilty of something,
You're not confessing anything, you're pursuing truth and the right to speak truth.
Not my experience at all, and you said you wouldn't even use that image, so you're just making that nonsense up. Most people's understanding of the "Holocaust" is that the word encompasses all of the suffering of Jews in Europe in the 1930s-40s. Their understanding of "Holocaust denier" is someone who basically denies everything that happened to the Jews.

The image quite plainly explains that revisionists specifically deny 3 main aspects:
- The Nazis used homicidal gas chambers to kill Jews
- The 6 million number of dead Jews
- The intent or policy to kill all of the Jews

Just as White people are told in school that the Germans persecuted Jews, they are also reminded that White Americans killed the Amerindians, enslaved the Blacks (or rather, purchased the already enslaved Blacks and took them to the new world), discriminated against Asians, etc. All because of hatred of the skin, apparently.

You're going to be called "anti-Semitic" regardless, better get used to it. :)
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer


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