Focused Thread: The so-called UKRAINIAN "holocaust by bullets"

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
CHoutle
Member
Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:22 pm

Focused Thread: The so-called UKRAINIAN "holocaust by bullets"

Postby CHoutle » 3 weeks 5 days ago (Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:08 pm)

As I look into this whole utter absurdity referred to as "holocaust by bullets," I have noticed much contradictory information that contributes to much confusion. So I am starting a new thread that will focus specifically on Patrick Desbois' allegations of finding mass graves in the Ukraine.

Background information can be found here:

Mattogno demolishes Desbois 'mass graves' fraud
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9768

Here:

"Holocaust by Bullets: Uncovering the Reality of Genocide"
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7362

And here:
yet another take down of "Holocaust by Bullets" / Tamo Kosto
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10315

My goal in this thread is to cut through all the BS complication and confusion so people can easily see what has actually been alleged about the Ukrainian "mass graves," exactly how many have allegedly been found, how many jews they allegedly contain and what has actually been substantiated.

Again, let's strive for clear and precise information about the UKRAINE "mass grave" allegations only.

CHoutle
Member
Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:22 pm

Re: Focused Thread: The so-called UKRAINIAN "holocaust by bullets"

Postby CHoutle » 3 weeks 5 days ago (Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:22 pm)

It's important in this thread to use quotes that can be shown to have come directly from Patrick Desbois and/or the Yahad-In Unum website:

https://www.yahadinunum.org/

A good example of what we are going to examine in this thread can be found in this article penned by Patrick Desbois himself:

https://www.un.org/en/holocaustremembra ... apter7.pdf

Which contains these gems from the chalratans own hand:

Unlike the Holocaust of the camps, the bodies of the victims in the East were not burned... Our focus is identifying the mass grave sites... the precise locations of the mass graves... To date, Yahad teams have covered approximately 60-70 per cent of Ukraine, identifying more than 650 mass grave sites, many previously unknown, that contain the remains of more than 1 million victims... Our work seeks to preserve the memory of the lives of these people... By identifying the mass graves... Locating the mass graves also is important for humankind as a whole... Europe is ready to stand, not above, but before, the mass graves...


When Desbois says above:

"To date, Yahad teams have covered approximately 60-70 per cent of Ukraine, identifying more than 650 mass grave sites, many previously unknown, that contain the remains of more than 1 million victims,"

Does anyone know the exact date that article was published?

(I believe it was published in February of 2013, but cannot say at this time that I am 100% sure.)

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: Focused Thread: The so-called UKRAINIAN "holocaust by bullets"

Postby Lamprecht » 3 weeks 5 days ago (Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:40 pm)

The most famous event in the so-called "Holocaust by bullets" in Ukraine is at Babi Yar (just search this forum for "Babi Yar" there's plenty of threads on that).

it is alleged that the Nazis shot thousands of Jews at Babi Yar in Sept 1941 (exact numbers vary wildly, but usually about 31 thousand is claimed). It is also alleged that hundreds of chained prisoners at the Syrets concentration camp were forced to exhume the bodies from August to September 1943, and then burn the corpses in giant outdoor pyres. The alleged huge mass graves have not been uncovered, although this would result in hundreds of thousands of pounds of burnt remains.

There was a mass grave in Ukraine that was certainly uncovered in Ukraine in 1943 around this period though. These were the Vinnitsa mass graves discovered by the Germans, which were caused by the Soviet NKVD. I do not know if they ever blamed this on the Germans, but the Soviets did blame the Katyn mass graves on the Germans and the Americans helped them do this.

If any mass grave is uncovered in Eastern Europe I would like to see proof that it is, in fact, a result of the Third Reich and from that period in time. It shouldn't be difficult, and the whole "they dug up the bodies and burned them" silliness just makes the whole thing sound even more absurd.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 3355
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: Focused Thread: The so-called UKRAINIAN "holocaust by bullets"

Postby Hektor » 3 weeks 4 days ago (Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:09 am)

CHoutle wrote:It's important in this thread to use quotes that can be shown to have come directly from Patrick Desbois and/or the Yahad-In Unum website:

https://www.yahadinunum.org/

A good example of what we are going to examine in this thread can be found in this article penned by Patrick Desbois himself:

https://www.un.org/en/holocaustremembra ... apter7.pdf

Which contains these gems from the chalratans own hand:

Unlike the Holocaust of the camps, the bodies of the victims in the East were not burned... Our focus is identifying the mass grave sites... the precise locations of the mass graves... To date, Yahad teams have covered approximately 60-70 per cent of Ukraine, identifying more than 650 mass grave sites, many previously unknown, that contain the remains of more than 1 million victims... Our work seeks to preserve the memory of the lives of these people... By identifying the mass graves... Locating the mass graves also is important for humankind as a whole... Europe is ready to stand, not above, but before, the mass graves...


When Desbois says above:

"To date, Yahad teams have covered approximately 60-70 per cent of Ukraine, identifying more than 650 mass grave sites, many previously unknown, that contain the remains of more than 1 million victims,"
.....

If they really "found 650 mass graves with a total 1.000.000 victims, then there would be some mass graves with with more than 1000 corpses/human remains inside. Yet instead of showing a picture of an excavation, they decided to put a picture of a well known fraud into their article:
Image

Same applies to the kind of evidence they would trump up. It won't be testimony of senile people in the Ukraine, but the said mass grave excavation pictures:
https://www.yahadinunum.org/category/ukraine/

Of course told stories have more psychological impact than raw empirical data, that should tell you the intentions of the propagandists themselves.

If they really were interested in educating the public properly, why did they chose that particular subject, which already gets massive attention, and not neglected subjects like the crimes of the communists, the genocide on ethnic Germans, etc.?

CHoutle
Member
Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:22 pm

Re: Focused Thread: The so-called UKRAINIAN "holocaust by bullets"

Postby CHoutle » 3 weeks 4 days ago (Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:48 pm)

Lamprecht:

the whole "they dug up the bodies and burned them" silliness just makes the whole thing sound even more absurd.


Right, and what makes that silliness even more absurd, is the fact that the charlatan Desbois says this about the mass graves he allegedly has "forensically proven" exist:

Unlike the Holocaust of the camps, the bodies of the victims in the East were not burned.

CHoutle
Member
Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:22 pm

Re: Focused Thread: The so-called UKRAINIAN "holocaust by bullets"

Postby CHoutle » 3 weeks 4 days ago (Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:55 pm)

Hektor:

Of course told stories have more psychological impact than raw empirical data, that should tell you the intentions of the propagandists themselves.


Right, but they are alleging that they have far more than just "raw empirical data," they are alleging that they have "raw empirical proof" i.e. tangible physical evidence in the form of actual forensically proven mass graves that allegedly contain actual, tangibly located forensically proven jewish corpses.

Here are the graves that were discovered "in an old Jewish cemetery" at Busk Ukrain:

Image

http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/7/3/3433

Image

http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/7/3/3433

So the only proof of mass graves that I have seen to date were from a cemetery.

Imagine that?

Remember now, the claim by Desbois himself / yahad in unum is that:

Between 1941 and 1944, approximately one and a half million Ukrainian Jews were murdered in the Ukrain.


Remember also that what we are trying to do here in this thread is cut through the complication and confusion and focus on the Ukrain allegations only.

CHoutle
Member
Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:22 pm

Re: Focused Thread: The so-called UKRAINIAN "holocaust by bullets"

Postby CHoutle » 3 weeks 4 days ago (Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:47 pm)

Update

As you can see here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10315#p94216

1,666 - Total number of documented execution sites

https://yahadmap.org/#map/

Please note that today's date is 10 / 14 / 19


Today [10-17-19] when I looked the number was up to 1,700:

https://yahadmap.org/#map/

CHoutle
Member
Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:22 pm

Re: Focused Thread: The so-called UKRAINIAN "holocaust by bullets"

Postby CHoutle » 3 weeks 4 days ago (Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:04 pm)

As I wrote in the OP:

So I am starting a new thread that will focus specifically on Patrick Desbois' allegations of finding mass graves in the Ukraine...


My goal in this thread is to cut through all the BS complication and confusion so people can easily see what has actually been alleged about the Ukrainian "mass graves," exactly how many have allegedly been found, how many jews they allegedly contain and what has actually been substantiated.

Again, let's strive for clear and precise information about the UKRAINE "mass grave" allegations only.


The following comes directly (verbatim and in toto) from the yahad in unum website on 10-17-19:

Father Desbois to Release New Book – In Broad Daylight: The Secret Procedures behind the Holocaust by Bullets

In the Holocaust by Bullets, Father Patrick Desbois documented for the first time the murder of 1.5 million Jews in Ukraine during World War II, based on wartime documents, interviews with locals, and the application of modern forensic practices on long-hidden gravesites. Nearly a decade of further work by Yahad – In Unum, drawing on interviews with 5,000 neighbors of the Jews, has resulted in stunning new findings about the extent and nature of the genocide.

The mass killings took place across the Eastern Front, in seven countries formerly part of the Soviet Union invaded by Nazi Germany. They followed a secret template, or repeatable script, that included a timetable and involved local inhabitants in the mechanics of death to ensure complicity, whether it was to cook for the killers, to clear, dig, and cover the graves, to witness their Jewish neighbors being marched off, or to take part in the slaughter. 

Yahad President Father Desbois assembles a chilling account of how, concretely, these events took place in village after village, from the selection of the date to the twenty-four-hour period in which the mass murders unfolded. Today, such groups as ISIS put into practice the Nazis’ lessons on making genocide efficient.

The book will be published in January 2018.

https://www.yahadinunum.org/father-desb ... bullets-2/


And in the following link on this same date of 10-17-19, we find this (verbatim and in toto) on the yahad in unum website:

The Holocaust by Bullets in Ukraine

Map of Execution Sites in Ukraine

On the eve of the invasion of the Soviet Union by German troops, 2.5 million Jews lived in the territory of present-day Ukraine. It was the largest community living in the USSR.

Following Operation Barbarossa, the Ukrainian territory was divided into 3 administrative and territorial units: the General Government, the Reichkommissariat Ukraine, the military administration; as well as the Romanian sub-administration for a southern part of the country.

From the first days of the ccupation, massacres of the Jewish population began: leaders nad public community figures, rabbis, and communists were killed. The first large-scale massacre was perpetrated in Kamenets-Podolsk on August 28-29, 1941, where more than 25,000 Jews were murdered.

In the Ukrainian territory, the Jews were imprisoned in ghettos or in forced labor camps, deported to death camps farther west or directly shot on the spot in mass graves, mines, wells, and ravines. More than 1.5 million Ukrainian Jews were exterminated by the Nazis and their collaborators between 1941 and 1944.


Yahad’s Investigations

Yahad-In Unum began its research in the Ukraine in 2004. In the past 10 years of work, Yahad-In Unum research teams have interviewed 2,203 witnesses and have identified in 916 mass graves in the country.

Learn more about our fieldwork in the country through our individual investigation reports.

Learn about the Holocaust by Bullets in individual villages in Ukraine through our interactive map.

https://www.yahadinunum.org/the-holocau ... n-ukraine/



https://www.yahadinunum.org/the-holocau ... n-ukraine/

User avatar
Moderator
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1655
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 9:23 am

Re: Focused Thread: The so-called UKRAINIAN "holocaust by bullets"

Postby Moderator » 3 weeks 4 days ago (Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:38 pm)

CHoutle:
We need more substantial comments when you post text / links.
Thanks, M1
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

CHoutle
Member
Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:22 pm

Re: Focused Thread: The so-called UKRAINIAN "holocaust by bullets"

Postby CHoutle » 3 weeks 3 days ago (Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:14 am)

Moderator wrote:CHoutle:
We need more substantial comments when you post text / links.
Thanks, M1


The goal here is to lay a foundation of documented statements that can be directly attributed Desbois / yahad-in-unum which will lead to a conclusive statement of fact. That conclusively documented statement is not far off. Just a few more facts to complete laying the foundation.

User avatar
Moderator
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1655
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 9:23 am

Re: Focused Thread: The so-called UKRAINIAN "holocaust by bullets"

Postby Moderator » 3 weeks 3 days ago (Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:20 am)

CHoutle wrote:
Moderator wrote:CHoutle:
We need more substantial comments when you post text / links.
Thanks, M1


The goal here is to lay a foundation of documented statements that can be directly attributed Desbois / yahad-in-unum which will lead to a conclusive statement of fact. That conclusively documented statement is not far off. Just a few more facts to complete laying the foundation.


No matter, there still must be comments, views, etc. made per post.
M1.
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

CHoutle
Member
Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:22 pm

Re: Focused Thread: The so-called UKRAINIAN "holocaust by bullets"

Postby CHoutle » 3 weeks 3 days ago (Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:05 pm)

So what exactly is the story that is being espoused about the so-called Ukrainian "holocaust by bullets"?

The following comes directly from Desbois' own hand:

Unlike the Holocaust of the camps, the bodies of the victims in the East were not burned... Our focus is identifying the mass grave sites... the precise locations of the mass graves... Our work seeks to preserve the memory of the lives of these people... By identifying the mass graves...

https://www.un.org/en/holocaustremembra ... apter7.pdf


The following comes directly from the yahad in unum website [10-17-19]:

In the Ukrainian territory... More than 1.5 million Ukrainian Jews were exterminated by the Nazis and their collaborators between 1941 and 1944... Yahad-In Unum research teams have... identified 916 mass graves in the country.

https://www.yahadinunum.org/the-holocau ... n-ukraine/


Now Desbois has a new book - In Broad Daylight: The Secret Procedures behind the Holocaust by Bullets - that allegedly tells us this:

In the Holocaust by Bullets, Father Patrick Desbois documented for the first time the murder of 1.5 million Jews in Ukraine during World War II, based on wartime documents, interviews with locals, and the application of modern forensic practices on long-hidden gravesites.

...

The mass killings... followed a secret template, or repeatable script, that included a timetable and involved local inhabitants in the mechanics of death to ensure complicity...

https://www.yahadinunum.org/father-desb ... bullets-2/


Now let's go back here:

https://www.un.org/en/holocaustremembrance/docs/pdf/chapter7.pdf

All at once, I realised that the shootings in Ukraine had been carried out in public and witnessed by Ukrainian people ... Unlike the secrecy surrounding the camps, however, the genocide carried out in the towns and villages of Eastern Europe occurred in full public view, witnessed by the victims’ neighbours . These people... they saw the shootings occur, sometimes requisitioned by the killers and forced to perform some task: to gather; to drive; to dig... The fact that the Holocaust by bullets occurred in plain view of everyone...


Desbois even goes so far as to say at the 10:25 mark in this video:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ho ... ORM=VDMCNR

"In some village we have a car with high voice and they say come to see the killing of the jews and everybody is coming because the Germans wanted to show it was a justice ???? there was no secret here."


So according to the orthodox story of the so-called Ukrainian "holocaust by bullets," the alleged magically disappearing "over 1.5 million jews" didn't actually disappear, they have been located by "the application of modern forensic practices on long-hidden gravesites" and the double top secret plan of exterminating the Ukrainian jews was not only carried out in broad daylight, the Germans actually drove around in autos with loud speakers blaring "come to see the killing of the jews!"

And yet, this so-called "hidden holocaust" wasn't even known about until this greasy little charlatan decided to go look for the jews?

:lol:

Now I'm sure that any rational. logical and intelligent person would be thinking: How could such a massive crime, carried out in broad daylight and literally advertised by the Germans have been an "invisible holocaust" in which it was alleged the jews "magically disappeared"?

Well, the answer to that simple logical question is answered by Desbois here:

https://www.kare11.com/article/entertai ... /393692650

"I discovered that the killing of the Jews were public -- and I discovered some of the neighbors wanted to speak," Father Desbois said.

...

No one spoke of it... I asked, why didn't we know any of this before?

"Because it was public," Father Desbois said. "The more you kill in public, the less people speak.

This way of killing, the less people speak because it's frightening, it's deeply frightening."

It literally scared people, those who saw and lived in those villages, into silence.


So there you have it folks. Those evil genius Nazis not only figured out a way to make jews magically disappear in the camps, they did themselves one better by "literally" figuring out a psychological method to make people not want to speak of horrendous crimes that they witnessed with their own eyes. And it would have all worked out perfectly for those evil Germans and the "hidden holocaust" and all those magically disappearing jews would still be hidden if not for one man - our hero Father Patric Desbois!

You believe me, don't you mom?

:lol:

So now we have just one more teeny weeny itsy-bitsy little issue to look into - the "over 1.5 million unburnt jews" in the 916 "huge mass graves" whose locations are "precisely known."

Remember, only a hate filled anti-semitic holocaust denier would have any doubts what-so-ever that they actually exist, because we know, with the utmost certainty, that they do exist because Father Patric Desbois / yahad-in-unum say they do.

And what true-believer needs more "proof" than that?

CHoutle
Member
Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:22 pm

Re: Focused Thread: The so-called UKRAINIAN "holocaust by bullets"

Postby CHoutle » 3 weeks 2 days ago (Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:08 pm)

An interesting note here:

If you combine the over 2.1 million jews allegedly buried in 100 "huge mass graves" at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II with the over 1.5 milllion jews allegedly buried in 916 "huge mass graves" in the Ukraine, you get over 3.6 million jews allegedly buried in 1,016 "precisely known" / "forensically located" sites.

Over 3.6 million jews equates to over 60% of the fraudulently alleged 6 million holocausted jews.

So over 60% the so-called "proven holocaust" has allegedly been "scientifically proven" at just these 1,016 "precisely known" locations.

Truth seekers / tellers should have a field day with this.

Ironically, the jews have fallen into the science / archaeology trap, and are digging themselves (pun intended) deeper into that hole everyday.

User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2514
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: Focused Thread: The so-called UKRAINIAN "holocaust by bullets"

Postby borjastick » 3 weeks 1 day ago (Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:28 am)

I think there is a simple test for this claim of theirs that all these sites of mass shootings are well known. That is the fact that they have not been marked officially by a plaque or memorial. Given the money available to the holocaust remembrance projects around the world one would think that at the very least a small plaque noting the shooting and suffering would be in each location or at the town hall of the nearest village or town.

That these 'known' sites are not marked says it all really.

Simples.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9891
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: Focused Thread: The so-called UKRAINIAN "holocaust by bullets"

Postby Hannover » 3 weeks 1 day ago (Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:48 am)

borjastick:
I think there is a simple test for this claim of theirs that all these sites of mass shootings are well known. That is the fact that they have not been marked officially by a plaque or memorial.

For clarity, some alleged mass grave sites were marked previously, like Babi Yar & Ponar, and of course there are no such human remains, as has been proven.

To your point, Desbois won't mark those that he absurdly claims to have 'found' because that ruins his entire strategy which is to:

1. give his financial backers the false rationale of saying that the alleged "mass graves" are "documented" and "proven"
2. avoiding those who may well decide to investigate on their own
3. sell his fraudulent book

It's a tactic of deception and bluff. The sheer boldness of making such fraudulent claims leads the naive to think: 'It must be true, no one would lie like that'.
But yes they will, yes they do, and Revisionists have proven it.

- Hannover

No alleged human remains of millions upon millions to be seen in allegedly known locations, no 'holocaust'.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Callahan and 4 guests