Stalin's "Torch-men-Order" #0428 confirmed by Russia

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Stalin's "Torch-men-Order" #0428 confirmed by Russia

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:59 pm)

I received the following this morning by e-mail. If the evidence is correct, then every atrocity photograph that we have ever seen showing alleged German mass shootings or executions in the former Soviet Union must be rejected if there is no strong supporting evidence. If the Soviets really were sacrificing their own people in these ways to make anti-German propaganda, they would have photographed these horrors as well to drive home the message.
FPBerg


For many decades it was denied by the Reds that an order of this kind had ever had been issued.... More and more lies are being disclosed based on research into the Archives of the former Soviet Union. All lies eventually come to the light, unfortunately this one has taken some 64 years. No doubt, from this time originate the "famous" atrocity Fotos of mass-executions which are the favorites in the press..

Stalin's "Torch-men-Order" finally confirmed by Russia itself

Aus Metapedia
http://de.metapedia.org/wiki/Fackelm%C3%A4nnerbefehl

The so-called "torch-men order" (Fackelmännerbefehl) is the command No. 0428, issued November 17th, 1941 by Stalin. It declares that Russian partisans in German uniforms, particularly those of the Waffen-SS, were to destroy all settlements within a swathe of about 40 - 60 km depth from the main battle lines and to ruthlessly kill the civilian population. With these tactics it was important to leave a few survivors, which would report the supposed German terror attacks. This method of warfare was also confirmed by German soldiers who captured many Russian partisans wearing German uniforms.

Stalin, in a Radio announcement from 3rd June 1941, had called on all peoples of the Soviet Union to wage a merciless partisan war against Germany.

Almost daily, reports were being issued by the media, that the German forces advanced with the declared politics and aim of a "scorched earth" approach, which devastated the vast Russian lands in the most horrific way. Apart from the logical fact that no invader destroys the infrastructure necessary for his advancement in an occupied territory, there is also other evidence running counter to Stalin's command No. 0428 from Nov. 17th 1941:

At the contrary: Germany's Program, called "Ostacker Programm" (Eastern fields program) was designed to restore the devastated lands.

The Stawka headquarters of the highest commands orders:

All settlements, in which German troops are found, up to a depth of 40 - 60km from the main lines of battle, are to be destroyed and set on fire, also 20-30km from the roads. For the destruction of the settled areas in the required radius, the air force will be made available, also artillery and rocket-launchers will be used extensively, as well as intelligence units, skiers and Partisan divisions, who are equipped with bottles with flammable liquid. These hunting expeditions in their activities of destruction are to be dressed to the greatest extent in German soldier's uniforms and uniforms of the Waffen-SS looted from the German army.

This will ignite hatred toward all fascist occupiers and make the conscription of partisans from the outlaying areas of fascist territories easier. It is important to have survivors who will tell about "German atrocities". For this purpose every regiment is to form hunter-units of about 20- 30 men strong with the task to detonate and incinerate the villages. We have to select brave fighters for this action of destruction of settled areas. These men will be especially recommended to receive bravery awards when working in German uniforms behind enemy lines and destroying those settlement outposts. Among the population we have to spread the rumor that the Germans are burning the villages in order to punish the Partisans.


(Archive Series 429, Rolle 461, General's Headquarters of the Army, Division, foreign Units East II H 3/70 Fr 6439568. Filed: National Archive Washington) [1] [in progress] "Fackelmänner Befehl" (torch men-order) confirmed. Russian Security Service FSB published Stalin's order No. 0428.

It is obvious that scientific knowledge receives constantly new views and information. Historic events count among these as well, even if "Revisionism", particularly in Europe, attracts the greatest opposition of reactionary dogmatists. When we published Stalin's so-called torch-men order ("Fackelmänner-Befehl") for the first time in spring 1997 (OB 12/97) , we had nothing else to support us but the files found in the Washington National Archive, filed away under: (Archive Series 429, Roll 461, General's Headquarters of the Army, Division, Foreign Units East II H 3/70 Fr 6439568.

But in the meantime the Russian State Security Service FSB decided to officially publish Stalin's command Nr. 0428 of 17th November 1941. The command released by Stalin, popularly named the 'torch men order' ("Fackelmänner-Befehl") envisaged, that Soviet "hunting commandos" would penetrate deeply, by about 40- 60km into territory of the Soviet Union of that time, already occupied by the German army, in order to "destroy it and set it aflame." For this "the hunting units would be dressed for the most part in uniforms of Germans soldiers and in particular the Waffen-SS units, looted from the Germans, in order to be able to execute the commanded 'destruction activities'."

"This," according to the context of the order, "will ignite hatred toward the fascist occupiers and makes the conscription of partisans from the outlaying areas of fascist territories easier. It is important that some survivors remain, who will be able to tell about the "German atrocities." Furthermore, according to the order, "every regiment is to form hunter-units of about 20-30 men strong with the task of detonating and incinerating the targeted villages. We have to select brave fighters for these bold actions of destruction in settled areas. These men will be especially recommended to receive bravery awards, when working in enemy uniforms behind German lines, destroying those settlement outposts."

It is evident, that with this order, Stalin laid the foundation and practice of the "scorched Earth" tactics, which the German side had repeatedly been accused of and even charged with for obvious propaganda reasons. These criminal mercenary acts were clearly outside the convention of land warfare as stipulated in Den Haag in 1907 and which occurrences were vehemently denied by the German side.

The news magazine Der Spiegel (6/2000) quotes an example of the partisan Sonja Kosmodemjanskaja, who came to be honoured (by force), even in the "young pioneer" movement of the DDR, for her part of setting aflame the village Petrischtschewo near Moscow together with other mercenaries who followed the Stalin order.

This woman was eventually betrayed into the hands of the German army by the Soviet side and hanged but later declared to be a "heroine of the great patriotic war." The Stalin order, now confirmed by Moscow, forces historians, researching into the events of German-Soviet war, to see the occurrences in the light of criminal offences, as from the viewpoint of Stalin's "torch-men" order ("Fackelmänner-Befehls").

Without doubt, in this scenario belongs the propaganda show by the tobacco millionaire Reemtsma, who, for reasons of untrue fabrications and falsified pictures was busted and who had to take into consideration these revealed facts. As reported, the scientific examination of his anti-Wehrmacht (anti-German army) exhibition took longer than the originally planned three months. Is this the first sign of some integrity? [2]

1. Stalin's "torch-men" order, fabricated German atrocities.

2. Peter Fischer in Das Ostpreussenblatt Newspaper for the compatriots of of East Prussia eV. 12th Feb. 2000.

Friedrich Paul Berg
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Re: Stalin's "Torch-men-Order" #0428 confirmed by Russia

Postby Ilikerealhistory » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:05 pm)

I thought this was proven long ago. I am glad that more evidence is coming out every day against the Holocaust(R). But I am surprised the the information is available on a German website.

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Re: Stalin's "Torch-men-Order" #0428 confirmed by Russia

Postby neugierig » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:50 pm)

Fritz,
I was sent this some time ago. Since then I asked for confirmation, i.e., when and how did the Russians publish this order, a link to the original. Nothing, just some eyewitness reports about Russians wearing German uniforms.

In 2000, the Institute für Zeitgeschichte published an article, written by Christian Hartmann/Jürgen Zarusky in which they claim that “Series 429, Rolle 461” does not exist, it is instead “T-78, Roll 461” and it contains nothing about a Fackelmänner Befehl. Dr. Seidler also mentions the first, wrong according to Hartmann/Zarusky, archive number in his “Verbrechen an der Wehrmacht”, as do others. I am trying to contact Seidler, he was waiting for confirmation when the above mentioned book was published.

Is it possible that Seidler et al were wrong? Or, did the True Believers Hartmann/Zarusky look in the wrong file? Personally, I have no doubt that Russians committed atrocities while wearing German uniforms, Hartmann/Zarusky admit to it, but would Stalin put this in writing? I have my doubts.

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated, since a likeminded friend and I are working on the EG issue.

Regards
Wilf

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Re: Stalin's "Torch-men-Order" #0428 confirmed by Russia

Postby neugierig » 1 decade 11 months ago (Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:34 pm)

Just to follow up. Prof. Dr. Seidler wrote back to inform me that there is no mention of any Fackelmänner Befehl on NARA Serie 429, Roll 461, confirming what Hartmann/Zarusky wrote in their IfZ article. Prof. Seidler had mentioned this Befehl in his “Verbrechen an der Wehrmacht”, relying on Fritz Becker (Stalins Blutspur durch Europa…”). He, Prof. Seidler, had contacted NARA, asking them for details re. this roll. Nothing happened, thus he ordered it and found out that he had been led down the garden path by Becker. He is understandably perturbed by this, writing that this sort of thing is not helpful. Agreed, and neither is this nonsense article posted on metapedia.

Hartmann/Zarusky provide a German translation of Stavka 0428, it exists, according to them, minus the uniform part. But, the order is useful for our cause without it, Stalin ordered all villages 20-30 km behind German lines destroyed, making it impossible to determine who did what. This should at least raise some doubt as to “blame the Germans for everything”. Maisky, the Soviet envoy in London, apparently told Eden, in November 1941, that it had been a hard task to destroy all that had been build up since the revolution and that millions upon millions had to be evacuated (W. P. and Zelda K. Coates, “Vom Interventen yum Alliierten 1917-1942 – Die Geschichte der English-sowjetischen Beziehungen). I’ve ordered the book and will keep interested parties posted. I could also translate the order as provided by Hartmann/Zarusky if anyone is interested.

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Wilf

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Re: Stalin's "Torch-men-Order" #0428 confirmed by Russia

Postby PatrickSMcNally » 1 decade 11 months ago (Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:41 pm)

neugierig wrote:Maisky, the Soviet envoy in London, apparently told Eden, in November 1941, that it had been a hard task to destroy all that had been build up since the revolution and that millions upon millions had to be evacuated (W. P. and Zelda K. Coates, “Vom Interventen yum Alliierten 1917-1942 – Die Geschichte der English-sowjetischen Beziehungen).

That appears on pp. 692-3 in the original English edition, A HISTORY OF ANGLO-SOVIET RELATIONS. I don't think there's ever really been any dispute that both sides when retreating attempted to destroy shelter, equipment and supplies rather than leave it for the enemy. Russians did so when retreating at the beginning, and Germans did it later when forced to retreat. It was really the uniform claim which made this item distinctive.

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Re: Stalin's "Torch-men-Order" #0428 confirmed by Russia

Postby PotPie » 1 decade 11 months ago (Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:09 am)

Don't expect scholars to investigate this and correct the historical narrative accordingly.

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Re: Stalin's "Torch-men-Order" #0428 confirmed by Russia

Postby Hektor » 7 years 11 months ago (Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:26 pm)

Apparently a document has been released Stavka 0428, which deals with tearing down villages in Russia, but there is no part about wearing German uniforms.
It has been used as a red herring for a while. However I do not think the last word has been said about this. Remember who controls the archives.







Anyway, I think this one belongs into the WW2 sub-forum.

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Re: Stalin's "Torch-men-Order" #0428 confirmed by Russia

Postby Dresden » 7 years 11 months ago (Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:31 pm)

Hektor said:

"I think this one belongs into the WW2 sub-forum."

No, it belongs in the Holocaust Forum, because it deals directly with atrocity propaganda, and that's what the Holohoax is.
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Stalin's "Torch-men-Order" #0428 confirmed by Russia

Postby neugierig » 7 years 11 months ago (Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:30 pm)

Correct Hektor, he who controls the archives controls history, or something like that. :) I have no doubt that Stalin did issue this order, but never in writing. German soldiers killed by partisans were regularly found naked, nothing more needs to be said. As for the order, the film 'Breaker Morant' comes to mind. Kitchener, the mass murderer, no doubt gave the order under discussion, but never admitted to it.

A Happy New Year to all
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Re: Stalin's "Torch-men-Order" #0428 confirmed by Russia

Postby slob » 1 year 5 months ago (Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:48 pm)

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Re: Stalin's "Torch-men-Order" #0428 confirmed by Russia

Postby jerryemery » 1 year 4 months ago (Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:33 am)

Could this shed light on the events at Lidice , Czech?

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Re: Stalin's "Torch-men-Order" #0428 confirmed by Russia

Postby Hektor » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:51 pm)

jerryemery wrote:Could this shed light on the events at Lidice , Czech?

How would that be?
And no, it wouldn't, since it deals with a totally different country: USSR wasn't CSR or the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia.

I wonder if there has been any news on the archives and the text of the order in question.

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Re: Stalin's "Torch-men-Order" #0428 confirmed by Russia

Postby Hannover » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:35 pm)

jerryemery wrote:Could this shed light on the events at Lidice , Czech?

Off topic, but briefly, FYI:
1. Women, children were not shot, the claim is 100% BS, there is no proof.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8960&p=68593&hilit=lidice+children#p68593
2, The men shot were of military age only, they were considered to be in league with communist terrorists / 'partisans' who executed the murder of Heydrich, not exactly nice, but quite different from the propaganda spread about Lidice.
3. in spite of what many are led to believe, the men shot were not Jews, there is no 'holocaust' connection.
3. The numbers alleged have changed drastically and are extremely contradictory.
4. Reprisal were legal in WWII per international law, the Allies engaged in them as well.

Lidice is a drop in the ocean compared to the Communist crime of Katyn, the Communist gulags, the Allied crimes of massive civilian bombing of Germany long before Germany retaliated on a much, much smaller scale against Britain, The US atomic bombings of Japan, the summary execution of countless surrendered Germans by the allies.

for more see:
Lidice Massacre / Reprisal
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12195
and:
search.php?keywords=lidice+&fid%5B0%5D=2

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Stalin's "Torch-men-Order" #0428 confirmed by Russia

Postby HMSendeavour » 2 months 4 days ago (Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:11 pm)

neugierig wrote:Hartmann/Zarusky provide a German translation of Stavka 0428, it exists, according to them, minus the uniform part. [...] I could also translate the order as provided by Hartmann/Zarusky if anyone is interested.


It's been 10 years, but this would be very useful.

David Irving also cites Becker and T-429, Rolle 461 sheet 6,439,568. (See: https://archive.vn/IhDci)

neugierig wrote:Prof. Dr. Seidler wrote back to inform me that there is no mention of any Fackelmänner Befehl on NARA Serie 429, Roll 461, confirming what Hartmann/Zarusky wrote in their IfZ article. Prof. Seidler had mentioned this Befehl in his “Verbrechen an der Wehrmacht”, relying on Fritz Becker (Stalins Blutspur durch Europa…”). He, Prof. Seidler, had contacted NARA, asking them for details re. this roll. Nothing happened, thus he ordered it and found out that he had been led down the garden path by Becker


How could he confirm Serie 429m Roll 461 if it didn't exist? Or do you mean that this source does exist but this document doesn't exist within it? But, I'm still confused. If he contacted the NARA how could "nothing happen" if he checked the roll? How did Becker lead him down the garden path? Because he incorrectly cited this document?

Anyway.

David Irving also cites a Federal Archives file BA-MA: H3 / 70. Perhaps the reference to the uniforms is in here? It wouldn't be surprising to find out there's more than one version of this document. One more incriminating than the last. The text for the uniforms has to come from somewhere, and to expect the Soviets did all they did, like using human beings to walk mine fields, and yet not wear German clothing is just absurd. Nothing is too evil for the Communists.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference

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Re: Stalin's "Torch-men-Order" #0428 confirmed by Russia

Postby HMSendeavour » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:22 am)

Regarding the Torch-Men-Order, I briefly looked it up to see if it had been discussed by anyone else. I was led to a reddit thread that was boring and contained nothing of worth, however linked was this thread made on the Axis History Forums: http://archive.fo/OOgNq

The conclusion about the order seems to be that there is nothing regarding uniforms, and that section most commonly quoted is indeed some sort of fabrication.

The order in full, reads as follows:

HEADQUARTERS OF THE SUPREME COMMAND

ORDER
dated November 17, 1941 No. 428

ON THE CREATION OF SPECIAL TEAMS FOR THE DESTRUCTION AND BURNING OF SETTLEMENTS IN THE REAR OF THE GERMAN FASCIST TROOPS


Moscow city


The experience of the last month of the war showed that the German army is poorly adapted to war in winter conditions, does not have warm clothing and, experiencing enormous difficulties from the onset of frost, huddles in the front line in settlements. Arrogant to the point of insolence, the enemy was going to spend the winter in the warm houses of Moscow and Leningrad, but this was prevented by the actions of our troops. On vast sectors of the front, German troops, having met stubborn resistance from our units, were forced to go over to the defensive and were located in settlements along the roads for 20-30 km on both sides. German soldiers live, as a rule, in cities, in small towns, in villages, in peasant huts, sheds, barns, baths near the front, and the headquarters of German units are located in larger settlements and cities, they hide in basements, using them as a cover from our aviation and artillery. The Soviet population of these points is usually evicted and thrown out by the German invaders.

Depriving the German army of the opportunity to settle in villages and cities, expelling the German invaders from all settlements into the cold in the field, smoking them out of all rooms and warm shelters and making them freeze in the open - this is an urgent task, on the solution of which the acceleration of the defeat of the enemy largely depends and the decay of his army.

The Headquarters of the Supreme Command ORDERS :

1. To destroy and burn to ashes all settlements in the rear of the German troops at a distance of 40-60 km in depth from the forward edge and 20-30 km to the right and left of the roads.

To destroy populated areas within the specified radius of action, immediately abandon aviation, make extensive use of artillery and mortar fire, teams of scouts, skiers and partisan sabotage groups supplied with Molotov cocktails, grenades and subversive weapons.

2. In each regiment, create teams of hunters of 20-30 people each for the explosion and burning of settlements in which the enemy troops are located. In the team of hunters to select the most courageous and politically strong fighters, commanders and political workers, carefully explaining to them the tasks and significance of this event for the defeat of the German army. Outstanding brave souls for their brave actions to destroy the settlements in which the German troops are located should be presented to the government award.

3. In the event of a forced withdrawal of our units in one sector or another, take the Soviet population with us and be sure to destroy all settlements without exception so that the enemy could not use them. First of all, for this purpose, use the teams of hunters allocated in the regiments.

4. The military councils of the fronts and individual armies systematically check how the missions for the destruction of populated areas in the above radius from the front line are being carried out. The rate every 3 days with a separate report to report how many and which settlements have been destroyed in the past days and by what means these results have been achieved.

Headquarters of the Supreme Command
I. STALIN
B. SHAPOSHNIKOV


Source: https://tinyurl.com/TorchMenOrder Archive: https://archive.vn/codso ,
The archive reference is: TsAMO, f. 208, op. 2524, d. 1, l. 257-258.


These are the scans of the original document as cited above:

Image
Image
Image

According to the user on Axis History who uploaded the scans, it makes no reference to uniforms.

There are a few things that strike me as odd, and worth considering. For one thing, this archival sources hasn't been mentioned yet, so it would be beneficial to have scans of the documents also cited in other archives in this thread:

Akten der Abteilung Fremde Heere Ost (FHO II) des Generalstabs des Heeres, Bundesarchiv file BA-MA: H3/70, National Archives Mikrofilm T-429, Rolle 461, Blatt 6,439,568;


The article published by the Institute für Zeitgeschichte, as referenced by neugierig in this thread can be read here: https://www.ifz-muenchen.de/heftarchiv/2000_4.pdf, Archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20200916235218/https://www.ifz-muenchen.de/heftarchiv/2000_4.pdf. See page 95. It is in German.

Of this article a commenter in the Axis History thread writes:

Hey thank you for the research you did.

I am German and thus understand everything of the book you provided.
You are indeed right with your assumption. The quote you made is the only part that is actually proven to be real. The rest of the above text is based on no physical documentation and is mostly mentioned by political right wing supporters.

The book says this based on the fact that the order has been released in the following source released by the russian military archive:
Stavka VGK. Dokumenty i materialy 1941 god . Moskau 1996 = Velikaja Otecestvennaj a 5 , 1 , S.299 f. , Prikaz y Narodnog o Kommissara Oborony SSSR 22 ijunja 1941 g . - 1942 g . Moskau 1997 = Velikaja Otecestvennaj a 2 , 2 , S.120 f .

Besides of that "Sergej Slutsch" did take a look at a copy of the original document which is stored here:
Central'ny j Archiv Ministerstvo Oborony RF in Podols'k, Fon d4, Opis ' 11, Delo 66, List 221

And he confirmed that only the part quoted by you above is actually in there. Anything behind that is not found in any official documents.

The author does add that this does not mean that there haven't been any actions like that though.
Following source claims that there have been attacks on villages commited by russian partisans who did wear German uniforms while commiting them:
Archiv des Instituts für Zeitgeschichte München, MA 1564, NOKW 2535, S.18

However, Germans did the same. Kommandoverbände der Abteilung II des Amts Ausland/Abwehr des Oberkommandos der Wehrmacht did use Russian uniforms on the eastern front as well.
So yea, especially because of mentioning this I guess this is a pretty safe source.


It's interesting that this user provides a source for when the Soviets did in fact wear German uniforms and commit atrocities. But it's just not the Torch-Men-Order.

What I think is worth considering is that we're dealing with Soviet Documents, and these are very unreliable sources of information. Stephen Kotkin, the most recent and comprehensive biographer of Joseph Stalin, has mentioned in talks he's done about how the Soviets had several different documents made with varying different contents that would be used to refute claims made against the Soviet Government. But he also said that there was often a layer beneath the misinformation of authentic documents.

So far people have only been discussing this one document, nobody is to say that there is no other versions of the Torch-Men-Order that contains this phrase about the uniforms, or perhaps another document entirely. I find it hard to believe that it just came out of nowhere.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference


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