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Hebden
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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 5:19 pm)

alpha wrote:
Hebden wrote:
Dan wrote:Malle, 6-11-43 means the sixth day of November, 1943.

Most countries don't use the silly American method of dating where the month comes before the day.


Sir, it reads 6/13/43.


The author of the document is Ertl, who was transfered from Auschwitz in late January 1943 (Pressac, Die Krematorien von Auschwitz). The registration number 21242 is below the registration number of the highly incriminating "cremation with simultanous Sonderbehandlung" document (22186), which is dated 29 January 1943. Both details correspond and indicate that the document was in fact written in January 1943 and that the Nuremberg translation has simply put a wrong date on the document.


Excellent, it all makes sense. That's one less mystery in the world. Perhaps Mr. Malle would inform us of his source for this translation.

alpha

Postby alpha » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 5:54 pm)

Malle wrote:
But if you say so, I must take your word for it, it was so, so very, very secret!


Malle, now you are very, very naive. I ask you again:

Do you think the Germans would have driven the gas vans into a garage, shut the door, threw the key away and went home in the Reich?

Or isn't more reasonable to believe that they have dismantled the vans?

A simple question, a simple answer please.

It may come as news to you, but there were actually gas chambers in A-B. Not to kill people, but to disinfect clothes etc! So what does that "Tagesbericht" proof?


That there was a gas-chamber in crematorium, idenfied by eyewitnesses as homicidal gas-chamber. Whoops!

It is called corroborating evidence, I think.

Now that we have cleared that up, how do you explain the gassing process? I mean, according to the above, the gas was created BEFORE the people vent into the "Vergasungskeller"! That's not the story I heard! Or they first took them into this cellar and afterwards took them to another place, where they finished off the gassing?


*lol*

A Vergasungskeller is a gassing cellar. Also in Auschwitz, Malle! See "Erläuterungsbericht über den Bau des KGL Birkenau" of October 30th 1941 where the delousing huts are mentioned as "Vergasungsraum" ( Auschwitz: Das Ende einer Legende. Historisch-technische Überlegungen
by Carlo Mattogno)

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:14 pm)

alpha wrote:A Vergasungskeller is a gassing cellar. Also in Auschwitz, Malle!

Are there any examples of the use of this word apart from the Holo-genre?
:)

alpha

Postby alpha » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:38 pm)

Malle's assertion that Vergasungskeller is translated not correctly as gassing cellar is also refuted by another Auschwitz document, where Vergasung is clearly used in Auschwitz in the context of Zyklon-B gassing and nothing else:

Code: Select all

Konzentrationslager Auschwitz          Auschwitz, den 12. August 1942
        Kommanantur                                 [handwritten]


                       S o n d e r b e f e h l.

       
Ein heute mit leichten Vergiftungserscheinungen durch
Blausäure aufgetretener Krankheitsfall gibt Veranlassung,
allen an Vergasungen [!!!] Beteiligten und allen übrigen SS-
Angehörigen bekanntzugeben, daß insbesondere beim Öffnen
der vergasten Räume von SS-Angehörigen ohne Maske wenigs-
tens 5 Stunden hindurch ein Abstand von 15 Metern von
der Kammer gewahrt werden muß. Hierbei ist besonders auf
die Windrichtung zu achten.
Das jetzt verwendete Gas enthält weniger beigesetzte
Geruchstoffe und ist daher besonders gefährlich.
Der SS-Standortarzt Auschwitz lehnt die Verantwortung für
eintretende Unglücksfälle in den den Fällen ab, bei denen
von SS-Angehörigen diese Richtlinien nicht eingehalten
werden.
       
                              gez.: H Ö ß
                    SS-Obersturmbannführer und Kommandant.




F.d.R.:
  [Unterschrift Mulka]
SS-Hauptsturmführer und Adjutant.

Verteiler:

7-Stück an SS-T-Stuba.         je 1 Stück an:
7   "    " Verwaltung          SS-Revier,HWL,DAW.Funkst.
3   "    " Ablage              Fernschreibestelle
2   "    " Bauleitung          Telefonvermittlung
2   "    " Polit.Abt.          SS-Kantinengemeinschaft
1   "    " 9./SS-T-Stuba.      Fahrbereitschaft
1   "    " Landwirtschaft      Arbeitseinsatz KL
1   "    " Reitstall           Abteilung IV
1   "    " Schutzhaftlager     Außendienststelle des
1   "    " FKL.                Amtes V.I
1   "    " Gerichtsoffizier    Sonderkommando Zeppelin.
1   "    " Personalabteilung
1   "    " Haus der Waffen-SS
         

Hebden
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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 7:46 pm)

A Vergasungskeller is a gassing cellar. Also in Auschwitz, Malle! See "Erläuterungsbericht über den Bau des KGL Birkenau" of October 30th 1941 where the delousing huts are mentioned as "Vergasungsraum" ( Auschwitz: Das Ende einer Legende. Historisch-technische Überlegungen
by Carlo Mattogno)


We only discovered relatively recently that this work of Mr. Mattogno is also available in English: http://vho.org/GB/Books/anf/Mattogno.html

In our opinion, it it the best English language revisionist source relating to the documentary evidence for homicidal gassings at Auschwitz.

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Postby Malle » 1 decade 7 years ago (Thu Jan 02, 2003 11:27 pm)

I shall try to explain what I meant, because of all posting that I got after my last post.

First:

Hebden wrote:Excellent, it all makes sense. That's one less mystery in the world. Perhaps Mr. Malle would inform us of his source for this translation.


I got this source from the most secure source you could ever dream of. :D It's coming from Nuremberg Military Tribunal (NMT IV (NO-4466) p. 625). Please read my first post and you could see this (but why bother?). As I previously admitted, this document could be a sloppy translation. But people got hanged for this. Fair trial you say?

Malle wrote:There we agree. If you find the German original, please notify me. :D


It should actually state; if you can find a German copy that is not a copy of one certified copy, after that certified copy, please notify me. To skip the bull, the original document!

Second:
alpha wrote:
Malle wrote:But if you say so, I must take your word for it, it was so, so very, very secret!
Malle, now you are very, very naive. I ask you again:

Do you think the Germans would have driven the gas vans into a garage, shut the door, threw the key away and went home in the Reich?

Or isn't more reasonable to believe that they have dismantled the vans?

A simple question, a simple answer please.

Malle wrote:Now that we have cleared that up, how do you explain the gassing process? I mean, according to the above, the gas was created BEFORE the people vent into the "Vergasungskeller"! That's not the story I heard! Or they first took them into this cellar and afterwards took them to another place, where they finished off the gassing?

*lol*

A Vergasungskeller is a gassing cellar. Also in Auschwitz, Malle! See "Erläuterungsbericht über den Bau des KGL Birkenau" of October 30th 1941 where the delousing huts are mentioned as "Vergasungsraum" ( Auschwitz: Das Ende einer Legende. Historisch-technische Überlegungen by Carlo Mattogno)


Now you must explain your self. I said in my poor English that you could translate "VER" in this case with "BEFORE". Now I can say, "CREATE". You must have some equipment, that can create the gas mixture if you should use "VER". If you don't understand, post once more.

Please let us all know your opinion about the difference between what the "eye-witnesses" says about the gassing and how a disinfection gas chamber works. Please start a new thread on this.

And how could it be, that the gas vans document has "Geheime Reichssache" and your favourite document with "Vergasungskeller" doesn't have it? Please explain why!



And at last:
We all revisionists thank you for the document about "Vergasung" (Sonderbefehl="Extra order")!!!

It clearly states that "eye-witnesses" testimonies are false! The "Sondercommando" pick out people without gas masks after ca 15 min etc.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 7 years ago (Fri Jan 03, 2003 9:32 am)

Malle wrote:I shall try to explain what I meant, because of all posting that I got after my last post.

First:

Hebden wrote:Excellent, it all makes sense. That's one less mystery in the world. Perhaps Mr. Malle would inform us of his source for this translation.


I got this source from the most secure source you could ever dream of. :D It's coming from Nuremberg Military Tribunal (NMT IV (NO-4466) p. 625). Please read my first post and you could see this (but why bother?). As I previously admitted, this document could be a sloppy translation. But people got hanged for this. Fair trial you say?


Now, now, be a good boy and don't be petulant. We mistakenly assumed that you had got the NMT translation from a secondary source. The original volumes are not too easy to come by.



Malle wrote:There we agree. If you find the German original, please notify me. :D

It should actually state; if you can find a German copy that is not a copy of one certified copy, after that certified copy, please notify me. To skip the bull, the original document!


Feel free to email the Auschwitz State Museum. We have received answers to our own questions in the past.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 7 years ago (Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:59 pm)

Hebden wrote: Now, now, be a good boy and don't be petulant. We mistakenly assumed that you had got the NMT translation from a secondary source. The original volumes are not too easy to come by.


This is now confusing.

Do I have to understand now that the stuff that Hoaxers, Nizkor’s McVay and the various members of the THHP and others are freely quoting from the NMT prorocols whenever it suits their philosophy is only true when they are quoting it, but when Skeptics use it that they have to contact the Auschwitz State Museum?
Now why is that so, I wonder?
And I always thought that the NMT was held in Nuremberg in Germany, by the Americans.
They must have been Poles in disguise then. :D

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 7 years ago (Fri Jan 03, 2003 5:24 pm)

Sailor wrote:
Hebden wrote: Now, now, be a good boy and don't be petulant. We mistakenly assumed that you had got the NMT translation from a secondary source. The original volumes are not too easy to come by.


This is now confusing.

Do I have to understand now that the stuff that Hoaxers, Nizkor’s McVay and the various members of the THHP and others are freely quoting from the NMT prorocols whenever it suits their philosophy is only true when they are quoting it, but when Skeptics use it that they have to contact the Auschwitz State Museum?
Now why is that so, I wonder?


Mr. Malle broached the subject of the whereabouts of the original document so we helpfully (or so we thought) pointed him in the direction of the Auschwitz Museum.

It is not our fault that Mr. Malle opened this thread with his intemperate claim of having discovered another forged document. We recommend the benefits of a more cautious approach.

And I always thought that the NMT was held in Nuremberg in Germany, by the Americans. They must have been Poles in disguise then. :D


We assume the Americans obtained NO-4466 from either the Russians or the Poles.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 7 years ago (Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:20 pm)

I hate to get so directly involved, but let's cut to the chase.

If you feel the document is a forgery, then say so & why; if not, then say so & why. If the alleged original document is nowhere to be found then say it.

Too much sparring and not enough discussion. Stay true to the point of the thread.

Remember, there are others reading this board.

Thanks, Moderator

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Postby neugierig » 1 decade 7 years ago (Fri Jan 03, 2003 9:30 pm)

Happy New Year to all! :)

I find the "Sonderbefehl", posted by alpha, very interesting. It directs everyone involved with 'Vergasung' to stay away from the buildings, after the doors have been opened, a distance of 15 meters for at least 5 hrs., wind direction also being a factor. As well, I see gasmasks mentioned.
Now, all the eye witnesses tell us, the doors were opened a relative short time after the pellets were introduced, about 1/2 hr. or so, no gasmasks, and the corpses removed. This has always been a giveaway for me, impossible with this highly toxic stuff. So, how now? This document either deals with disinfections or the eye witnesses were lying.

Wilf

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Postby elbod » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sat Jan 04, 2003 3:52 pm)

If you feel the document is a forgery, then say so & why; if not, then say so & why. If the alleged original document is nowhere to be found then say it.

Too much sparring and not enough discussion. Stay true to the point of the thread.

Remember, there are others reading this board.

Thanks, Moderator


Which document is meant? The document posted by Malle in the thread-starter, or the document posted by alpha Wed Jan 01, 2003 4:38 pm (above)?

The document posted by alpha above is a copy of a copy of a document, is it not? The inserted exclamation marks – “[!!!]” – etc, make it obvious that it is not even a photo-copy of the original document.

Question : are you and/or any historian of an event ENTITLED to “feel” or pronounce such copies forgeries, unless the original document also is available?

Or is this “petulance” (Mr. Hebden) when the matter is an allegation of genocide?

Regards/elbod.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sat Jan 04, 2003 5:43 pm)

It would seem the 1st document was the point.

The delousing/fumigation document posted by Alpha actually supports the Revisionist position. As Scott noted:
It directs everyone involved with 'Vergasung' to stay away from the buildings, after the doors have been opened, a distance of 15 meters for at least 5 hrs., wind direction also being a factor. As well, I see gasmasks mentioned.

It shows no sinister meaning whatsoever, and in fact contradicts the lies that inmates moved bodies within minutes of gassings while eating, and without protective clothing.
It demolishes the lies that the alleged 'gas chambers' were quickly ventilated (within mere minutes) outward. Which ofcourse would have sent highly concentrated poisonous fumes to the camp grounds, AND while the Zyklon-B in the alleged 'gas chambers' continued producing yet more cyanide (it took hours for the Zyklon-B granules, once exposed to air, to yield all of the impregnated cyanide)

As to proclaiming a document a 'forgery', well, certainly not having the original to support claimed text does little to enhance the credibility of the alleged/claimed text. Original Nuremberg documents are notoriously difficult to find.
The typical scenario is something like:
'a copy of a Polish translation of a copy of a Russan translation of a German copy'.
The actual & real original is nowhere to be found. Not the stuff of credibility.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sat Jan 04, 2003 7:03 pm)

Hannover wrote:It would seem the 1st document was the point.

The delousing/fumigation document posted by Alpha actually supports the Revisionist position. As Scott noted:
It directs everyone involved with 'Vergasung' to stay away from the buildings, after the doors have been opened, a distance of 15 meters for at least 5 hrs., wind direction also being a factor. As well, I see gasmasks mentioned.

It shows no sinister meaning whatsoever, and in fact contradicts the lies that inmates moved bodies within minutes of gassings while eating, and without protective clothing.
It demolishes the lies that the alleged 'gas chambers' were quickly ventilated (within mere minutes) outward. Which ofcourse would have sent highly concentrated poisonous fumes to the camp grounds, AND while the Zyklon-B in the alleged 'gas chambers' continued producing yet more cyanide (it took hours for the Zyklon-B granules, once exposed to air, to yield all of the impregnated cyanide)

- Hannover


We don't quite agree for two reasons. The Leichenkellers of Krema II and III, at least, were equipped with extractor fans. They also allegedly had wire mesh contraptions of some description for the introduction of the Zkylon B. Our understanding is that these could be retrieved after the gassing was completed and the Zkylon granules neutralised with water.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sat Jan 04, 2003 8:27 pm)

Morgues, especially those underground would need general ventilation, no argument.
This is from Germar Rudolf in his critique of Robert Jan Van Pelt, an alleged 'expert' on Auschwitz who also tried the alleged 'gas chamber' ventilation argument:
1. All morgues in Birkenau had ventilations systems with some 10 air exchanges per hour, a normal performance, as this was required by German war-time law for underground morgues (5-10 air exchanges per hour)[30]
2. A comparison between the performance of the alleged 'gas chamber' and that of the alleged victim's undressing room reveals that there is nothing sinister with the ventilation of morgue 1 ('gas chamber'), as its performance is even lower than that of the undressing room: morgue 1 ('gas chamber'): 9.94 exchanges per h morgue 2 ('undressing cellar'): 10.35 exchanges per h

3. War-time literature recommended some 70 air exchanges per hour for professional delousing chambers, a standard that must be expected for 'professional' homicidal 'gas chambers' as well. [31] **In fact, that is 7 times more than that of the systems of these morgues!!** After a close inspection of the documented facts it is clear that Prof. van Pelt's "powerful ventilation system" is nothing but a fiction.

[30] Re. requirements see W. Heepke,Die Leichenverbrennungs-Anstalten (die Krematorien), Verlag von CarlMarhold, Halle a.S. 1905, p. 104; re. performance in Auschwitz: Archive ofAuschwitz Museum, D-Z/Bau, nr. inw. 1967, pp. 246 - 247; cf. C. Mattogno'sresearch on this in"Auschwitz: Das Ende einer Legende", in: H.Verbeke (ed.),Auschwitz: Nackte Fakten, VHO, Berchem 1995 http://www.vho.org/D/anf/MattognoR.html ;English;Auschwitz:The End of a Legend,Granata, Palos Verdes 1994. [31]P. Puntigam, H. Breymesser, E.Bernfus,Blausäurekammern zur Fleckfieberabwehr, Sonderveröffentlichungdes Reichsarbeitsblattes, Berlin 1943, p. 50. The documents quoted here and innote 30 can be found at C. Mattogno's quoted article (note 30); http://www.vho.org/D/anf/MattognoR.html


And as I said before, any alleged ventilation of the alleged gas chambers in the timeframe and manner decribed by the "eyewitnesses" would have gassed the camp grounds inhabitants.

As for the alleged 'wire mesh insertion devices', which are problematic for the Believers in many, many ways (start a thread on that topic and find out how many ways); they would have actually inhibited the release of cyanide from the Zyklon-B granules which required space to efficiently release their load in the air.
The Zyklon-B, if confined within these alleged 'insertion devices', would have it's cyanide release time drastically increased. This would equate to a lengthy period of time before the supposedly large 'gas chambers' could have achieved the required cyanide saturation level necessary to kill all the alleged occupants (supposedly thousands) per gassing in the time lengths alleged by "eyewitnesses" (mere minutes).
AND, the dispersal of any released cyanide throughout the alleged chamber would be further hampered by 'packed in' occupants pressed around these supposed wire mesh devices....adding yet more time to the supposed process.

The story doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

I welcome a new thread on these alleged, quite silly, and unsupportable 'wire mesh insertion devices'.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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